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Messages - fish153

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1
Theology Forum / Re: Ephesians 2:8
« on: Tue Aug 14, 2018 - 14:25:16 »
Well, I note the wrong definition of salvation once again.  We DO NOT keep ourselves saved.

Either you believe keeping yourself in the flock leads to salvation, or you believe that HE will KEEP YOU in
the flock and your salvation in no way relies on you---BUT HIM.  It's really as simple as that. Faith is trusting what
HE HAS DONE and WILL DO, not trusting in what you do or can do.  That is why the past tense "saved" is
used in Ephesians 2. We are in no way our own saviors-----we all need THE SAVIOR.

2
Theology Forum / Re: Faithfulness to God and one another issues.
« on: Fri Jul 20, 2018 - 14:02:21 »
Just recently i was feeling really bad. I was thinking how unfaithful I have been in doing what the Lord wants. I will at times be lax in several areas----
prayer, study, worship, and at times also failing to gather with other believers when I know I should. I was actually allowing myself to fall under con-
demnation about this, which has a tendency to paralyze us and keep us from seeking the Lord as we should.

I believe the Holy Spirit led me regarding this to consider Psalm 119. This is a very long Psalm, divided into sections with Hebrew letters. As we read
this Psalm we see the constant pleading to be a faithful person put forth by the writer. He yearns after God and His Word, and wants to have a closer
walk with God and not be led astray. He is constantly crying out to God through the whole Pslam, but interestingly the Psalm ends with verse 176:

176 "I have strayed like a lost sheep.
    Seek your servant
,
    for I have not forgotten your commands".


I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is teaching us here that we will, or should constantly stray away from the Lord.  But I think what the Lord is teaching
us here is despite all the pleading and "trying" that we do to stay in the flock what is really important is trusting THE SHEPHERD HIMSELF TO KEEP US.
Remaining faithful in the flock is not based on our trying to be faithful----but by relying on HIM TO BE FAITHFUL to keep us.  Notice how the Psalmist says "I
have strayed like a lost sheep, SEEK YOUR SERVANT
".

What I truly believe this is teaching us is that the Psalmist has learned through all of his yearning and trying and crying is that he can only really remain faithful
if THE LORD IS SEEKING HIM. The Good Shepherd calls to us and leads us out----we don't just decide to follow.

Again, I don't see this verse as an excuse to stray, or to think either that we are always going to stray---but rather as a realization that we need to constantly RELY
and HAVE FAITH that the Good Shepherd WILL KEEP US as we call to Him.  We cannot be faithful to God through our "efforts"---but by relying upon HIS PROMISES
to be faithful to us and hear our prayers.

I found this to be greatly comforting.  Comfort from the Comforter.

3
Through my years as a believer I have studied many "cults" and aberrant groups.  Several years ago I came in contact with a member of "THE TRUE JESUS CHURCH". They
are a church that has it's roots in China.   They have some very strict doctrines.  Here is their belief about Baptism:

4. Water Baptism is the Sacrament for the remission of sins and for regeneration. The baptist must be one who has received the Holy Spirit. The baptism must be administered in the following mode: (Mt 3:16;  Acts 2:38; Jn 20:21-23)

•         In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 19:5; 8:16; 22:16)
•         With the head of the baptised bowed and facing downward (Rom 6:5, 8; 19:30)
•         Complete immersion of the baptised (in 3.23;Acts 8:38)
•         In such natural living water as sea, river, or spring (Zech 13: 1; Mt 3: 13; Acts 8:38)


This member told me that if one is not baptized in this mode their salvation will not be valid.  I joked with this member (who did not appreciate it at all) about the fourth
requirement, because I had been baptized in a backyard pool.  I said that one day I would be in hell and when asked by others why I was there I would shout "It's because
of the Chlorine!!!"


I just share this because it truly is an example of how a group of people can be carried away with rituals, and how much power they give to them.  I thank the Lord that
He is a God of Grace.

4
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit"
. (Hebrews 6:1-3)

I find these verses interesting. I am guilty myself of getting into endless arguments about Baptism, soul sleep, Gifts of the Spirit, and Hell (see references to these "arguments" in the verses
above).

It's almost like the writer is saying "let's get beyond these endless arguments and actually grow in Christ".  It's amazing to see how many threads are dedicated to arguing
about baptism, or hell, or resurrections, or "laying on of hands" (gifts of the Spirit).  But how many threads are dedicated to Jesus Christ Himself----who He was, His character,
His Greatness, etc.

Again, I am guilty of falling into these "arguments".  But I do sincerely want to grow in Grace also. Help us to learn more about YOU Lord.

5
Theology Forum / Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 15:44:12 »
4WD---

I think you didn't read far enough or you are misunderstanding. He is stating that ANY baby that dies is ELECT. He states that no babies will be
lost.  Read the article again.  He states that God is far too merciful to condemn a baby to hell.  He states it very clearly.

6
Theology Forum / Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 13:49:30 »
This is a very good article to read. Spurgeon confirms original sin but also shows why infants will be saved.

http://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/Christian-Article/Infant-Salvation-Charles-Spurgeon/Sword-and-Trowel-Magazine

7
Theology Forum / Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 17:09:39 »
4WD asked----

>>>And if that gold medal came with a $1,000,000 prize, would we all get $1,000,000?<<<

In a sense yes----because if Adam had not fallen, sin would not have entered mankind and we would all be as
innocent and pure as he was.  God does not need to individually test us to see if we sin or not-----we're already
sinners. Do you think if Adam had persevered and not fallen that each one of us would be tested individually to see if we would
sin or not? Why? If Adam passed the test that would mean that any one of US could also pass the test also, right?  So that
would mean that some of us actually don't need Jesus to die on the cross----we could persevere and avoid the
need for a savior correct?  If there is no original sin then that is what you are teaching.

8
Theology Forum / Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 14:50:39 »
Well, here we go again. And I will try to explain how I see original sin. Suppose you have a sprinter in the USA. He is the fastest and best Sprinter that
you have.  No one is faster or better.  The Olympics arrive and the USA puts this sprinter into the 100 meter dash.  Now suppose he wins?  The next day
the news will read "The USA won another Gold Medal".  We know it was HIS effort that got that gold medal----but we apply it to the country--because
he is OUR BEST.  None of us could possibly have done better.  If he had lost, we ALL lost as a country.

In the same way Adam REPRESENTED mankind.  He was the best of the best. Any of us put in the same situation would fail even more miserably, because
Adam represents the best that humanity had.  THERE IS NO NEED TO TEST ANOTHER HUMAN---anyone who was a human would fail the SAME WAY.
Every person who would come genetically through Adam is just as much a failure as he was.   This is so hard for some to see---but it is true.  ALL HAVE SINNED because
we are ALL SINNERS TO BEGIN WITH

Before we are born-again we are IN ADAM.  And in Adam ALL DIE.  That is why Jesus had to die for THE WORLD---not just one person----he had to die for
BILLIONS OF PEOPLEWHEN ADAM FELL WE ALL FELL.  That is Original Sin---and that is what the Bible clearly teaches.

9
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri Jun 22, 2018 - 16:31:36 »
One of my favorite books in the Bible is 2 Peter. I often find myself turning to this book. It could be because one is able to read the Epistle in one
sitting, but also because it is filled with the most wonderful blessings, and visions of a glorious future for Christians,  I realize that I will never convince
those who do not believe Jesus is God that He is INDEED GOD, so I am posting this for the benefit of those who KNOW who Jesus is, and can clearly
see the remarkable work of the Holy Spirit in picking each word carefully which HE uses.  There are many places in the New Testament where the
Trinity is shown----and this is another example.   This passage below is wondrous in nature and we should read it carefully:

"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from GOD THE FATHER, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved SON, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by THE HOLY SPIRIT. (2 Peter 1:16-21)

Please note what Peter says above. We need to read carefully.  Peter doesn't say that GOD said to Jesus "This is my beloved SON"   We must note that the Holy Spirit says through Peter "GOD THE FATHER". Why does the Holy Spirit emphasize this to us? Because GOD THE SON is the one being addressed.  God is not just God to Jesus Christ----God is GOD THE FATHER to Jesus Christ---because Jesus is GOD THE SON.

Please note in the above verses the blessed TRINITY also---I have emboldened GOD THE FATHERTHE SON, and THE HOLY SPIRIT as the Holy Spirit Himself is pointing out to us the work of the TRINITY in our salvation.   This is so blessed that it makes me want to jump for joy!  Yes----Jesus is God----no matter what the heretics say-----and it is a most blessed fact.

10
Theology Forum / Re: I Want To Suffer MORE for Jesus Christ.
« on: Mon Jun 11, 2018 - 16:40:59 »
I would suggest you seek out a more legalistic church.  They will be able to put more burdens on you so that you really feel the pain. They
will have far more things for you to do, and meetings to attend, and good works to do---and pretty soon you'll be totally miserable.  I would
suggest you go that route if you really want to suffer more.

11
Theology Forum / Re: Endless Torture - Part III
« on: Tue Jun 05, 2018 - 14:52:11 »
1)Buff----forgive me if I confused posts----but if you'll take a look at my original post you'll see how I stated "it is strange...."  and then when you refer to "her" you use the
sentence "It is strange..."    It sounds a lot like my quote--but if not I accept what you say (see below for the references):

My original post-------

>>>>Buff-----

It's strange how we can accept that a 25 year old person who receives Christ will live in Heaven forever and ever.  But we cannot accept that a 25 year old person
could die and be in torment forever and ever
.<<<

Your post----

As this will be my final column on the topic of never-ending torture, I’ll begin by quoting from one of my readers who uses a fictitious name.:

    “It is strange how we can accept [the view] that a person who receives Christ will live in Heaven forever and ever, but cannot accept [the view] that a person can die and be tormented forever and ever.”

    This reader, although unknowingly, has touched upon the taproot of the controversy, for HER position..."  HER post sounds extremely similar to mine.  Forgive me for mixing up the two though,


2)Yes Buff---you have "given in" to your own logic and understanding.  Why would Jesus say that it is better to cut off your hand or pluck out your eye and enter into Heaven, than to keep them and enter hellfire?  It is an analogy he is using----but it is a very serious analogy---if the ungodly  are "annihilated" why would he state that?

3) God HAS meted out His justice Buff---by laying the sins of EVERY person on Jesus Christ. If we accept that sacrifice we can be saved---if we reject it we face hell.

4) I'll go back and read----but Scripture says nothing about God torturing people for eternity--the torment is their own,

5) "Geez guys I really shouldn't do this cause Dad's gonna give me a whippin'-----guess I can endure it though--this is just too good to pass up".  If unbelievers think they will face a judgment, but that it ends in annihilation, then the message of the Gospel is gone--some are brough to Christ through fear (see Jude)---and some through love.  If we attempt to soften that
fear it is to the detriment of those who might be saved.

6) I believe that the ungodly will live in eternal separation from God---I believe that is what the Bible teaches.

7) No---revelation 20 should be viewed Literally----in it's verses it makes sure you realize they were thrown ALIVE into the fire----that is for a reason.

8) I did not say you believe what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe----I said you have "opened the door" to other false teachings when you allow one in first.

God bless Buff!  All the best to you.


12
Theology Forum / Re: Endless Torture - Part III
« on: Mon Jun 04, 2018 - 16:15:34 »
Buff--

Thanks for the post with my statement in it below.  First, let me state that I am a male not a female----but that's OK, no problem. I believe
it is very important to quote what Jesus said long ago: "A little leaven leavens the whole loaf'.  If we "give in" on one doctrine it leaves
the door open to do the same with other difficult, yet important doctrines.

What you are doing Buff is appealing to mercy, and pointing out how compassionate God is---which is VERY true.  However, we cannot sacrifice
God's Justice when doing so.  "Oh God is too kind to ever throw anyone into hell"---we hear this quite often.  And you are using the same
logic which I pointed out in an earlier post.  I must point out that there is a HUGE difference between eternal TORMENT and eternal TORTURE.
Atheists and other accuse God of "torturing" souls in hell----not true.  Their "torment" is their own---it is an eternal torment based in the
knowledge that they COULD have been saved.  They are OUTSIDE when they could have been INSIDE---this is one of the greatest "torments"
in my opinion.

Buff----many people believe that when life ends they disappear into nothingness.  Your theology is actually pretty close to that belief. Of course, I believe you are stating
 a "judgment"would come first--but THEN they would be annihilated.  I would suppose the doctrine of annihilation was very comforting to Hitler, and Stalin and Chairman Mao----a brief time of torments, and then the bliss of nothingness.

Let's take two people as an example:   Fergie Hermann of Indiana--she never accepts Christ, but has a very kind heart--and the very worst thing she has ever done is kicked
a dog when she was 11 years old.  Heinrich Himmler of Germany--- in charge of the mass murder of millions of Jews--responsible for unimaginable misery to millions of
souls.  But, in the end, they will both be judged, and then ANNIHILATED.   Buff----when you think of God does that example seem fair?  You speak quite a lot about the mercy of
God towards the damned----but what about his justice towards the damned?   Will God really annihilate Fergie Hermann the same as he will annihilate Heinrich Himmler? I don't
believe so. Of course, I am using human logic (the same as you are) when saying that, but I do believe the death on the cross had ETERNAL ramifications for the souls involved---I don't
believe in the doctrine of Annihilation. The cross created a CHOICE of where you will spend eternity.

I noted that neither you nor Red made any comment on Revelation 20 which I mentioned.  The Beast and the False Prophet are thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire and are STILL THEREa thousand years later.  I have to disagree with you and Red vehemently on this issue.  DO NOT put a "little" leaven into Christian doctrine.  That is exactly what the
Jehovah's Witnesses did---and little by little they have denied Hell, The Deity of Christ, The Trinity, The cross (to them it's a 'torture stake') and the Holy Spirit as a person.  A little leaven
has leavend the whole lump.  Do not be guilty of that.

13
Theology Forum / Re: Endless Torture [Part II]
« on: Fri Jun 01, 2018 - 18:59:22 »
Buff-----

It's strange how we can accept that a 25 year old person who receives Christ will live in Heaven forever and ever.  But we cannot accept that a 25 year old person
could die and be in torment forever and ever.  I've often thought about that myself--a person lives for 25 years or so and dies without Christ.  Now they go to hell
FOREVER? WHAT??  It sounds so terribly unfair doesn't it?  Yet at the same time we can accept someone living a mere 25 years on earth and dying going to Heaven FOREVER.

You ask the question about God below. But you have to think Buff, there was something so critical and horrible about the destiny of man that Jesus Christ had to come and die
a terribly horrible death, and be crucified for our sins. Did he come because we would cease to exist if he didn't---or was there a horrible fate awaiting them if He chose not to die
for them?  Was the reason that Jesus came because God IS a merciful, compassionate and loving Creator?\

We must remember that we are not infinite. Nor do we have the mind of the eternal God.  There are MANY things we do not know or understand.  To use human logic to explain away
endless torment, and in that way state that God is not merciful or compassionate if there IS an infinite Hell is not wise.  I do not understand Hell----but I do believe it exists and ETERNALLY for those who reject Christ.

You do well to read Revelation 20.  In that chapter it says that the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown ALIVE into the lake of Fire.  The Devil is then chained and imprisoned for 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years He is set free and He goes directly back to doing evil again and is eventually condemned.  Read closely and you will see that the Devil is thrown into the same Lake where the Beast and the False Prophet ARE.  Yes---- after a thousand years they are STILL there----they didn't disappear and they weren't annihilated.  They are in the Lake of Fire ALIVE after 1000 years.  Then at the very end ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is also thrown into the Lake of Fire.  These verses show us that the Lake of Fire is not for annihilation---it is for torment.  It is hard to grasp or understand------but it is very true.

14
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 10:11:22 »
soterion----

Thanks----God bless you!

15
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 18:11:40 »
soterion---

I showed you exactly how it fit with the passage he was using.  He is stating that eternal life is  to know the True God and Jesus Christ (not God)
whom he has sent.  I am stating and showing that Jesus states clearly that HE HIMSELF IS ETERNAL LFE---- "i AM the way, the truth, and THE LIFE"

I don't know how to put it more clearly.

16
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:47:45 »
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name". (John 20:31)

Think of how the Gospel of John begins. "In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and THE WORD WAS GOD". (John 1:1)

"And THE WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)

This is clearly stating that God was incarnated into human flesh.  What does it mean to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the SON OF GOD?  After reading this Gospel
can we come to the conclusion that Jesus was just a man---or maybe an angel---or a created being?  Think of the book of John----what is Jesus constantly sayingI AM.
I am the bread of life, I am the water of life, I am the light of the world, I am the way, the truth and the life, I am the resurrection and the life, etc.

And in the book of John we have Nathanael calling Jesus THE KING OF ISRAEL, and we have Thomas proclaiming "MY LORD AND MY GOD" (John 20:28)

What I will state will most likely not be received gladly. BUT, if you can read through the Gospel of John sincerely, and carefully, you cannot but come to the conclusion that Jesus
Christ is God.  And that is what John 20:31 is proclaiming.

This is the last post I will make defending the deity of Jesus Christ.  But I cannot leave without warning one more time the SERIOUSNESS of rejecting the Deity of Christ:

http://jesusalive.cc/ques36.htm   I hope with all my heart you can open your eyes.

17
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:30:47 »
soterion--

It isn't pitting scripture against scripture. Jesus Christ CLEARLY SAYS that HE is the way, the truth,and THE LIFE---He doesn't say "MY father is the way, the truth and the life" does he?  The true God and eternal life is Jesus Christ.

"And THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD" (JOHN 1:1)   The Father sent the Son to die for us.  'before Abraham was I AM[/b]" (John 8:58)

18
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 16:04:21 »
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life". (1 John 5:20)

I am the way, the truth and THE LIFE"  (John 14:6)

19
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue May 22, 2018 - 13:45:29 »
Kenneth mentioned these verses:

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
         to them that have obtained like precious faith with us
         through the righteousness of God  [Theos or YHWH]
         AND
         our Saviour Jesus Christ:


You know what I find extremely interesting about this verse?  The very beginning--the first words in the verse.  Notice how Peter says "a servant and an apostle of Jesus
Christ
"---funny how we readily accept that Peter is saying he is BOTH a servant and an apostle of Jesus.  The word "and" does not split this to mean that Peter is
saying that he is a servant by occupation, and separately an Apostle of Jesus Christ.  No---we realize he is stating that he is BOTH a servant and an Apostle of Jesus Christ.

But though Kenneth will accept that he will try to split what Peter is saying about Jesus--- He is a Savior, but He is not God--even though the sentence says "Through the
righteousness of God and Our Savior...."


Why are you willing to allow the "and" when Peter refers to himself, but change the "and" when referring to Jesus Christ?  Heresy jumps through hoops to accomplish it's teachings.

20
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Sun May 20, 2018 - 00:04:55 »
Soterion---

Your post below is absolutely correct. "He who denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God" (1 John).  He is not talking about someone who doesn't believe Jesus was ever born, or that Jesus was just a spirit.

He is stating something extremely important----those who deny the deity of Christ. The "false teachers" "deny the Lord who bought them". Those,  like Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford (the two first leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses) who leave the truth and reveal they were never born-again believers are being referred to here.

This very denial reveals that they do not have the Spirit, and are with the spirit of Antichrist. They are easily identified. "Whom do you say that I am"? becomes a very seruious test. Who do they say Jesus is? Was He THE WORD (God the SON) become flesh?

Thank you for bringing that up--- it is an important spiritual question and test.

21
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri May 18, 2018 - 15:52:05 »
bemark---

I do have to state that Truthcomber is using human understanding to state what you are saying is false. That is often the problem with many who state that Jesus
is not Deity. They cannot accept this teaching, or the teaching of a Trinity, because they are attempting to understand it with their human reasoning.

"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your path" (Prov. 3:5,6)

I do want to apologize to Truthcomber, BTR and Kenneth though if I have in any way been insulting---because I really did not intend to be,  I do want to fervently defend
the teaching that Jesus Christ is God--but that should not give me license to insult or belittle any of you.

I do want to honestly say how saddened I am though.  I remember a few years back (1) person who posted here attacked the Deity of Jesus. He finally was made to go to the
Non-Traditional Theology board because attacking the Deity of Christ is actually a great offense to  many believers.  What saddens me is that there are (3) or more on
this thread now who have free reign to do this, and it is like allowing Jehovah's Witnesses to teach their doctrine freely, and treating it as accepted and revered doctrine.  This simply
is not true.  To say Jesus was "created" or is an "angel" is an affront to Him and to the Gospel.   So, I am sorry for anything that appeared to be an insult, but I am not sorry
for the doctrine I have posted at all. May Jesus Christ be praised.

22
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 15:23:41 »
Kenneth said--

>>>JESUS CAN READ THE MINDS EVEN OF FISH.<<<

That is very true.  And when He was on earth He could read minds and see great distances (Read about Nathanael in John 1 who when He realized the omnipresence
of Jesus and his ominisciece declared "YOU ARE THE KING OF ISRAEL!!"  and also read about the apostles in the middle of a raging storm and it says that "Jesus could
see them toiling at the oars
"  No ordinary human has that kind of vision Kenneth).

It's kind of amazing Kenneth---not even Satan, the greatest of all angels can read minds.  Yet Jesus could.  There are so many things that show us Jesus is God----and you
reject them all.

23
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu May 17, 2018 - 09:53:06 »
BTR said----

>>>The works were done by His Father, God through Him. He said His Father does the works. There are scriptural alternate explanations for all your points. We will have to just agree to disagree. I don't think there is any reason to insult each other. Ever wonder why non-trinitarians never burned trinitarians at the stake?<<

I went back through my post and honestly do not see anything in it that is an "insult" towards you.  All I said is it is extremely difficult for me to understand how you can read
the Scriptures and not see that Jesus is the "God-Man".  But you're right, we'll have to agree to disagree.

24
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 18:22:27 »
BTR----

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

Yes----  Jesus was "made" like his brethren in all things.  "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)  "A body hast thou prepared for me". (Heb. 1).

What you are failing to see BTR is that Jesus was the "God-Man". He was both "Son of God" and"Son of Man", and he refers to Himself as both.  This is why He is the perfect Mediator between God and Man---because He is BOTH.   It is hard for me to understand how you cannot see this----it is clearly taught in Scripture.  That is why He could forgive sins on
earth (only God can forgive sins), and do the amazing miracles He did.  Can a "created being" (if Jesus was an angel or some other form of created person) take 5 loaves and 2 fishes
and feed 5000 people?  Think about it.  Jesus was clearly God and Man in one body.

25
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 14:01:09 »
Red said----

>>>>The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time also antecedent to such generation.<<<

We have had this discussion before, and you are doing the same thing you did before.  You are using human finite understanding to define what a "son" is.  YES---to us finite,
human beings everthing has a beginning and an ending.  We understand "son" to refer to someone who was "generated" from another living being---and a grandson to be the son of that generated son, and so on.

But what you are doing once again Red is beginning with US rather than beginning with GOD.  So we need to ask are we patterned after God-----or does God need to be patterned according to what we understand?

I must remind you that God created TIME. He created the force (TIME) that MUST HAVE beginnings and endings.  Now, he patterned something ETERNAL into a FINITE IMAGE with beginnings and endings. God took His image (ETERNAL) and created man.  When we read Genesis it says "male and female" He created
MAN. The woman was "taken" from Man (she was not created separately, but was created FROM one of man's ribs).  And then the woman gave BIRTH and a son was TAKEN from her womb.  Thus the wife, and the son both CAME FROM Adam.  Thus the IMAGE of God was manifest.

I will state, and do believe this totally-----there is a FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT from ETERNITYWE are PATTERNED after this image in the form of husband, wife and child.  However, we are subject to time, and to beginnings and endings, and that is how we understand things.  Our minds find it hard to grasp that GOD HAS JUST ALWAYS BEEN.  It is even harder for us to grasp THE SON HAS ALWAYS BEEN.  We immediately shout "NO!!  That can't be---a son has a beginning---the word "son" implies a starting point!!". And yes that is true if we are PATTERNING GOD ACCORDING TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT 'SON' MEANS.

But if we realize and accept the fact that WE ARE PATTERNED after God it becomes far easier to accept that the SON HAS EXISTED FOREVER.  Your finite, human mind cannot accept this Red---that's all there is to it.  Mine can't either----but then I need to remember what I have said above. And then I see it clearly. I can then understand how "The Word was with God, and the Word was God".

PS--- I want to add that I am not implying that the Holy Spirit is female and that "wife" represents HIM.  I am stating that God PATTERNED his INFINITE IMAGE into FINITE BEINGS whom He designed to propagate.  God took the DIVINE BEING of LOVE----and created an IMAGE of that in created beings. He created something finite that would represent WHO HE IS as closely as possible without it being infinite.

26
End Times Forum / Re: Image of the beast
« on: Wed May 16, 2018 - 13:29:25 »
A world leader steps forward to a podium and behind him on a giant television screen is his image.  This "image" is also sent via satellite all over the world so that many
people see it simultaneously.  Everything the leader does the image does also.

27
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 16:46:07 »
soterion----

Thanks----I would have top agree with both statements.  You are correct, John 20:31 explains why the Gospel was written.  I would have to agree totally----trying to
understand the Trinity is like a worm trying to understand the nature of a human.  ::smile::

As for the two heretics below I would simply state that Hebrews 1 is explaining the SON, not Solomon.  A good way of looking at it is that God (despite man's horrible
rebellion) actually saved the best for last.  Imagine that:  God is even MORE gracious to humanity after 4000 years of hatred and revolt.  So after all the prophets have
been sent---after God has spoken through angels--and after man rejected them--He sent HIS OWN SON to us. What an amazingly Gracious God!!

Hebrews 1 is explaining to us WHY Christ cannot be a created being. But instead of listening and believing the Word these heretics continue their assault on the DEITY
OF JESUS CHRIST
.   You should take your arguments to the Non-Traditional Theology threads---because Traditional Christianity has as a MAIN TENET the DIVINITY OF JESUS
CHRIST
,.  That is why you will find books like "THE KINGDOM OF THE CULTS" written by Traditional Christians who recognize the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups that
state that Jesus is not God are HERETICS.

28
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 14:01:23 »
Red----

Below I posted this verse:

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

I believe it is very good to go back and read the story of Abraham and Isaac for in this God was giving a preview of what He would do in
the future. Even telling Abraham that God knew now that Abraham loved him because he did not withold his son. and was actually willing
to sacrifice him.

The whole purpose of John 1:1 is to teach us that God is more than one person. "the Word was with God, and the Word was God".  God
does not CHANGE.

 "But about the Son HE says,

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
 therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
 by anointing you with the oil of joy. (Hebrews 1:8,9)

This is another example in Scripture showing us that God is with God. Our finite
mnds do not accept this concept. When we, with our logic think of a Trinity we
may see a 3 headed being (as the JW's have described the Trinity)---
but the Trinity cannot be explained with human logic. It would take an infinite
mind to understand it.

You are attempting to use human logic Red instead of just believing the Scripture.  Read Hebrews 1:8,9 slowly and carefully.

29
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 10:42:33 »
Red----

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

You believe in "modalism" and it is unbiblical. The verse above shows that The Son of God existed before the world was created.

BTR and Kenneth have both been saturated with verses proving the opposite of what they believe so I am finished responding to either of them.

I am a bit surprised at you believing what you do Red--but that's your prerogative.

30
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 23:59:37 »
Kenneth---

You keep repeating that the Son is not the Father. I agree completely. The SON and the FATHER are different persons in the Trinity. The HOLY SPIRIT is the third person. That is why the seraphim say "HOLY HOLY HOLY is the Lord God Almighty". They don't say "God's"---they say "GOD". Three Persons in ONE God.

The SON who is the WORD came forth from God and became flesh. He was GOD in the flesh--- the God-man--- Son of God and Son of Man. You just simply do not understand Kenneth. You are trying to define God using human logic just as the JW's do.

31
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 19:03:27 »
BTR-----
>>>Quote: "Go back to John 20:28 again BTR"

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. -Jhn. 12:45

I put on my socks and my shoes. Are my socks my shoes?
<<<<


That is a totally ridiculous statement BTR.  If he is worshiping Jesus and saying "My Lord and My God" he is saying this to the person he is worshiping.

"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1)

Is Peter stating he is someone else's servant, but he is an Apostle of Jesus Christ?  No---he is saying he is a servant AND an Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Your argument is a very poor one my friend.

32
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 17:01:15 »
Kenneth/BTR---

As I mentioned below, you will hold on to your heresy despite clear evidence being shown to you.  No Kenneth, John did not "correct" Thomas, any more than he corrected
Nathanael who called Jesus "The King of Israel". As I have pointed out before, the language is so clear in john 20:28 that not even the Jehovah's Witnesses can change
the words in the verse.  The best they can do (as BTR shows so clearly below) is to try and "downplay" what Thomas said, and infer he didn't really mean to say "God"--it was just a form of speech showing respect.  lol.   

You know how ridiculous your examples are below?  Take any of your verses below BTR and add "My Lord and My God" to the end of them.  Here, let me do it for you:

"But he himself passed on ahead of them and bowed down to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother and said 'My Lord and My God'.  (Gen. 33:3)

Of course, I added the "and he said 'My Lord and My God'.  But that is exactly what Thomas said to Jesus.  Now, let me ask you.  In Genesis 33:3 if he HAD said to his
brother "My Lord and My God" what do you think his brother would have done?  His brother would have said "Are you crazy?" and made him stand up immediately.  And so would
all the other people in the examples you have given below if someone were to address them that way after bowing to them.  Japanese people to this day "bow" to one another----but none of them says "My Lord and My God"  do they?

In an effort to hold onto heresy you are giving a very bad example.  Go back to John 20:28 again BTR.  What is happening there is not "bowing" or "showing respect". Thomas
is declaring DEITY loud and clear.  And what does Jesus do?  Does he say "Are you crazy?" and make him stand up??   No---he absolutely does not.  He ACCEPTS the worship and ACKNOWLEDGES IT IS TRUE.

You are both jumping through hoops to try to hold on to a heretical doctrine.  And it is very foolish.  Believe the Word of God.

33
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 14:56:41 »
bemark----

You asked an excellent question of Kenneth. Here is part of his reply:

>>>The context proves that they were adoring or showing reverence for their BROTHER Jesus of Nazareth<<<

I must point out to you that this is WILLFUL IGNORANCE.  In John 20 when Thomas worshiped Jesus and said "My Lord and my God" there
are two important points  1) Thomas calls him God and worships Him. 2) Jesus does not refute what He has been called---neither does He tell
Thomas to get up to his feet.  No----He accepts the worship and the title.

Kenneth knows this and sees this.  But Kenneth will hold to his false doctrine no matter what he is shown. Paul actually says to avoid these people
as they are "self-deceived". Kenneth will completely deny this---but what he is actually saying is "I will not now down to Jesus Christ" though
the Bible clearly states that to Jesus EVERY KNEE will eventually bow.  Kenneth will not bow down or acknowledge Jesus is God (as Thomas did)
and therefore he is willfully rejecting Jesus. That is very, very serious indeed.

I personally have posted many different verses, and instances from the Bible and the Gospels that show Jesus is God quite clearly (if one takes the time to
actually read the verses and meditate upon them) yet Kenneth full out rejects them before he even really reads them through.  Good luck my friend--I
appreciate your attempts, and your excellent questions meant to open the eyes of the willfully blind.  I pray you have success.  God bless you bemark.

34
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Wed May 09, 2018 - 21:40:51 »
1+1+1= 3.  There are not 3 God's

1x1x1= 1.  There are 3 persons in One God.

35
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Wed May 09, 2018 - 17:32:36 »
No---the Son is not the Father--they are different persons in the Godhead.

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him
". (John 5:21-23)

If the Father judges no man who will be sitting on the Great White Throne?  ALL judgment has been committed to the Son.

Now---if the Son "quickens whom He WILL" and ALL JUDGMENT is commited to Him wouldn't He have to be an eternal being?  If we honor the Son as
we honor the Father are we not honoring them EQUALLY?  But if Jesus is a created being (finite) how could that be? He must be an infinite, eternal being.

Again we see that Jesus is God without a doubt.

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