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Messages - fish153

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36
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 11:25:29 »
I find it truly incredible that on this site called "Grace Centered Forum" someone has to defend the DEITY of Jesus
Christ. That is a basic tenet of the Christian faith. The Divinity of Jesus is one of the cardinal tenets that heretics will attack---
they will "deny the Lord that bought them".  I will offer one last post, though all the other posts showed insurmountable
evidence that Jesus Christ is Jehovah.

In the Book of John, chapter 1 Nathanael comes to Jesus. Jesus sees him approaching:

"When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
“How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that
" (John 1:47-50)

For the willfully blind I will point out a few things that show the Divinity of Jesus:

Jesus says He SAW Nathanel under the fig tree before Philip called him. This shows OMNISCIENCE AND OMNIPRESENCE---and NATHANAEL RECOGNIZED IT----IT AMAZED HIM
SO MUCH HE SAID
:   "YOU ARE THE KING OF ISRAEL"  How could a mere man "SEE" him under a fig tree? (perhaps miles away) A mere man could not---only
GOD could have seen him there.  This is what causes Nathanael's declaratiion. He calls Jesus THE KING OF ISRAEL.  Does Jesus deny this title?
No---He does not---he accepts it and says "because I said I saw you under the fig tree you believe?" He is ACCEPTING the title of KING OF ISRAEL.

But WHO IS THE KING OF ISRAEL?

I am the LORD, your Holy One, Israel's Creator, YOUR KING." (Isaiah 43:15)

No one should have to come here to defend the DEITY of Jesus Christ. It is clearly shown to us in Scripture.


37
End Times Forum / Re: Daniel 12:11
« on: Fri May 04, 2018 - 14:28:35 »
I have to say that I am amazed at RED and others when they state that the return of the Nation of Israel to their land in 1948 is not important prophetically.  It is one of the BIGGEST signs that we are definitely in the last days.  It is a literal MIRACLE that Israel is a nation again---it can only be the HAND OF GOD in bringing his people back to their homeland.

For these people to be scattered throughout the world for 2000 years and retain their identity and religjon is MIRACULOUS.  Another thing we MUST look at is the DEAD SEA SCROLLS.  Really think about it for a moment:  these scrolls were hidden in caves for 2000 years. In all that time no one stumbled upon them or found them---as if a Hand was holding them back from doing so, and shielding the scrolls in their hiding place. They were to be found only in GOD'S TIMING.

What a coincidence don't you think?  The Dead Sea Scrolls are hidden for 2000 years----and then a shepherd of goats (just a boy) discovers them in 1947.  Then, coincidence of all coincidences, the Nation of Israel is born ONE YEAR LATER in 1948---after 2000 years of being scattered.  And amazingly what do the scrolls prove to us? They prove that books like Isaiah are virtually the same as they are now---the translation has not changed their meaning in 2000 years.  And these very books which proclaim that Israel WILL ONE DAY RETURN to their homeland are shown to be authentic--hidden for 2000 years but still just as relevant as they have ever been.

But is this just coincidence?  Could both of these amazing things happen just one year apart from one another after 2000 YEARS???  NO-----the finding of those scrolls and the re-birth of the Nation of Israel were timed by God.  I will be quite honest---I am astounded to hear Red and others put no importance to the birth of Israel in 1948.  We are so EXTREMELY PRIVILEGED to be living at a time when we can literally SEE PROPHECY FULFILLED BEFORE OUR EYES.  We see a promise made over 2000 years ago fulfilled---we can point to a map and see that nation that so many have longed for------and so many have scoffed at--saying they would never be restored--Israel.

To deny these things is to be truly blind IMO---God has made these things obvious to any student of prophecy.  To re-unite the Scriptures with the nation of Israel at almost the exact same time is undeniably of the Lord.

38
Theology Forum / Re: Who and What is God
« on: Thu May 03, 2018 - 18:50:03 »
BTR---

It's interesting, but if you go to that actual translation you've given there is a symbol next to this verse that guides you below.   When you go below the words from the KJV are there as alternate
to what Brenton has for that verse.  It does say "Mighty One" instead of "Mighty God"  but the verse is pretty much word for word the same.

39
Theology Forum / Re: Who and What is God
« on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 14:13:44 »
Kenneth-----

I will try one more time:

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice HE judges and wages war. HIS eyes are like blazing fire, and on HIS head are many crowns. HE has a name written on him that no one knows but HE HIMSELF. HE is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and HIS name is the WORD OF GOD. The armies of heaven were following HIM, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of HIS mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “HE will rule them with an iron scepter.” HE treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On HIS robe and on HIS thigh HE has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS
".  (Rev. 19:11-16)

Please note carefully(once again) how the HOLY SPIRIT refers to the WORD OF GOD as HE, HIS, HIM, HIMSELF. He is emphatically pointing out to all of us that the WORD OF GOD is a PERSON---the same person mentioned in John 1:1-3 who IS GOD, and who then BECAME FLESH.

Kenneth---to not read these verses and see this is to be WILLFULLY IGNORANT.  The Holy Spirit has made sure that you see that the Word of God is a PERSON-----but you are purposefully ignoring it.  That is dangerous. Is a non-person called HE, HIS, HIM, HIMSELF?  Of course not----it is very obvious that the PERSON described above is a real entity----not just what God speaks".   I would daresay any "school kid" when reading the above verses would state immediately that a PERSON is being described.  But stay in your ignorance if you so choose.

40
Theology Forum / Re: Who and What is God
« on: Wed May 02, 2018 - 10:37:48 »
BTR---

You are correct.  Red does believe in what is called "modalism". He believes there is one God expressed and revealed in three persons.  But I do believe differently---I believe God has
always been a Trinity and has never changed.  Think again about the term "The Throne of God and of the Lamb". The Lamb is sitting on the Throne with the Father because the
Lamb is the God-man. He is God the Son.  God will never SHARE His throne with another. He that sits upon that throne MUST be God.

Isaiah 6 states that the Seraphim say continually "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God Almighty". Have you ever wondered why they say "HOLY" (3) times?  It is because there are eternally (3) Persons in ONE GOD.  I will say this BTR--the whole Gospel rests on Jesus being DEITY. If you do not believe that God became a man ("and the WORD became flesh" note: I John says "He that says that Jesus Christ has not come in the flesh is of anti-christ")---John is literally saying that those who deny that God came in the flesh are preaching from an anti-christ spirit! you are believing "another Gospel".

It is very, very important that we understand and accept the true Gospel. The JW's preach "another Gospel"---it must be rejected.

41
Theology Forum / Re: Who and What is God
« on: Tue May 01, 2018 - 18:31:43 »
BTR and others---you are being very foolish and willfully ignorant.  I have posted the below before---but I will post it again. The LORD says that "unto HIM every knee will
bow, and every tongue shall swear (confess)
"

Paul uses the exact same wording when he states "that to JESUS EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND TONGUE CONFESS"

Then we read that Jehovah states HE WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER.  So, I have to ask, if Jehovah is allowing everyone in Heaven and Earth to BOW to Jesus,
is He not allowing ANOTHER to receive HIs glory?

Or----just maybe Jesus IS Jehovah. If God is a trinity then if Jesus is being worshiped, the Father and the Spirit are being worshiped also.  Maybe that is why Revelation calls
God's throne THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB.  But wait a second----if it's the Throne of God AND of the Lamb isn't God SHARING His glory?  He would be doing and allowing
what He said He would NEVER DO.

Wake up you who deny the Deity of Jesus and let the three below groups of verses sink in. They clearly state what you deny.

Jehovah says:
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto ME every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear". (Isaiah 45:23)

"that at thename of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father". (Phil. 2:10,11)

"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else", (Isaiah 42:8)


42
End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 12:00:52 »
I totally disagree with the take you both have on Revelation 17.  I believe strongly that the 7 "kings" are empires.  When John wrote (5) had fallen,
one was (Roman Empire) and one was yet to come.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition
". (Revelation 17)

Please note that the eigth King is "of the seven".  He is a world conqueror which shall come back from the abyss to reign again.  Perhaps Alexander
the Great?  The eighth king is not a separate kingdom---he is "of the seven" that have existed. According to John after Rome one more empire will
rise. After that one of the kings from the past will return (He is presently in the abyss--he "was, is not, yet is")

I don't believe the 7 kings is talking about Roman Emperors at all.

43
End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 18:20:38 »
soterion---

I understand where you are coming from----but think for a moment about preterism.  In 70 AD Jesus returned and Satan was bound or destroyed according to them, correct?

Yet, 95% of Christians believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is yet future. Hundreds of verses in the Bible have to do with "watching" for the return of Jesus Christ.  When Jeus
says "I am coming soon" do you believe he meant soon as in just a few years (70 AD) or "soon" as God sees the word? "A thousand years are like a day to the Lord"?
Why would God allow most of the New Testament to talk about a return that is going to take place in just a few years? (70 AD)  Why are all these references in
our Bibles NOW?  You know, there were a type of people like the preterists back in Paul's day:

"Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some".  (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

It is important to see this.  The Holy Spirit is telling us that there were people THEN, and there will be people NOW (see 2nd Peter) who will shake the faith of some by
stating Jesus has ALREADY COME, etc. It is a warning to us that we would do good to heed.

44
End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 14:08:43 »
soterion---

I think the Scripture is very clear about this---and Amo was attempting to share that.  The problem is that preterists have their own definitions of words
like "soon" etc,  believing "soon" could not possibly mean 2000 years.  I believe the bible is very clear that Satan is at work during this present
age, and has not been bound or destroyed.  And I think that 95% of Christendom would agree with that.  Sorry, but have to disagree with you there.

45
End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 11:58:31 »
Amo---

Thank you for your posts, and your desire to speak the truth.  You are absolutely correct----Preterism is a great error. It is very obvious that Satan is not
bound or destroyed at this time on earth. That is a yet future event as you have so strongly pointed out.  Scripture is very clear about this. Thanks again and
God bless you.

46
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 17:53:29 »
Kenneth said----

>>>POOR LARRY: DENIES THAT JESUS CAME WITH FLESH AND BONES:<<<

Larry said no such thing.  You have the same problem the Jehovah's Witnesses have Kenneth.  That is why you attempt to re-translate John 1;1:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"  How can God be with God and be God at the same time? Makes
no sense. Yes-- to finite brains it makes no sense. But it is absolutely true just the same. Jesus is God and that is a main tenet of the Christian faith my friend.

47
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 17:08:37 »
4WD---

Yes--- I believe in apostasy.  It is where unbelievers reveal themselves:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

When a supposed "believer" starts to deny the Deity of Christ it is safe to say they were never a real believer in the first place. And when I say real I mean a born-again, spirit filled
believer---not like those mentioned in Jude who "have not the Spirit" even though they are teaching a supposed Christian message.

48
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 15:55:56 »
Friend:  "Do you think the great spostasy the Bible warns of has begun yet?"

Me:  "I'm on a Christian Forum arguing about the Deity of Christ, so yes, I think it's started".

49
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 19:00:35 »
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice HE judges and wages war. HIS eyes are like blazing fire, and on HIS head are many crowns. HE has a name written on HIM that no one knows but HE HIMSELF. HE is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and HIS name is the Word of God. (Rev. 19:11-13)

Lets see---should I believe Kenneth or what the Bible says?  You know, when we read the above verses it really seems like the Holy Spirit is emphasizing that the WORD is a PERSON.
Note the number of HE's, HIS's and HIM's the Holy Spirit chooses to use.  The WORD is a person----He is God----and He is Jesus Christ.

50
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 17:18:06 »
As has been stated several times already-----Jesus is God----He was NOT created.  We see this clearly in John 1:1-3:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made". (John 1:1-3)

Jesus is the WORD----He is God. One of the 3 persons in the Trinity. That is how He is with God and is God at the same time. The JW's use human understanding and wisdom to try and understand a concept that is infinite. Can i explain the Trinity clearly?  No--I cannot.  I am a finite being.  JW's should just accept and believe the Word of God instead of trying to rationalize it (they believe those who believe in the Trinity believe in three GODS---and that is not the case-we believe there is ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS.

51
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 16:33:11 »
BTR said----

>>>How are you honoring the Son if your saying he is the Father? Where did the Son go?  So wrong.<<<

I did not say that at all. The SON and the FATHER are different persons in the TRINITY.  The HOLY SPIRIT is
the third Person.  3 Persons in one God.  "Let US make man in OUR image". And man was created in
the "image of God".  As Kiwi pointed out---we are made up of three: spirit, soul and body. We are made in the image of
God----not Gods. One God---in three persons.

Let me ask a question.  Does God ever change?  No He says He doesn't in Malachi. Isaiah also says "FROM everlasting TO
everlasting thou art God
"

But Jesus says this:   "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5) Another translation
says "the glory we SHARED before the world began".  God does not change----God has ALWAYS been a TRINITY of persons.

To deny the SON is to deny the FATHER.

52
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 15:26:05 »
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:22-23)

If we read these verses carefully we realize that what John is really saying is that those who deny Jesus is God have a spirit of antichrist.  You are stating that God Himself did not come in
the flesh
---which is the true Gospel message---that GOD HIMSELF came to sacrifice Himself for us in a human body.  To deny the SON is to deny the FATHER also.


53
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Thu Apr 19, 2018 - 10:42:29 »
Kenneth said-----

>>>Jesus never created ANY PHYSICAL THINGS<<<

That is a completely unbiblical and untrue statement.  The Bible clearly states:

"Through him ALL things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:2)

It also says:

"But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
  You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

 He also says,

In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands. (Heb. 1:8-10)


Why this concerted effort on your part to say Jesus IS NOT GOD?  The Bible clearly teaches that He is----BELIEVE IT.

54
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Wed Apr 18, 2018 - 14:12:51 »
Kenneth said--

>>>>The word DUST Identifies Adam as an ABORIGINE<<<

I just wanted to say that I have heard and read a lot of things, but this is the first time I have heard that.

55
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 16:44:36 »
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son JUST as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him". (John 5:22,23)

Kenneth---

Jesus is calling himself the SON.  And how are we supposed to honor the SONTHE SAME AS WE HONOR THE FATHER.

Is Jesus stating that He is God?  Yes--he most certainly is. He is the second person of the Trinity.

56
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 14:00:02 »
Kenneth----

"But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death
". (Mark 14: 61-64)

You need to seriously read this passage of Scripture. The Priest isn't asking Jesus if He is a created being. He is asking Jesus if He is the very SON
of THE BLESSED
.  Jesus says I AM. They were condemning Him to death for calling Himself God---don't you understand that?  They had
tried to stone Him before for the very same thing.  They had also stated "only GOD can forgive sins" when Jesus forgave the sins of the crippled
man. Everything Jesus did showed He was Jehovah.  Even the smallest things in Scripture show us this---I will give one example:

In John 6 there is a sentence that appears to have little significance. It is when Jesus feeds the 5 thousand. Go to John 6 and read it yourself.  It says
"now there was much grass in the place" --and right after this statement it says that Jesus told the disciples to "make the men sit down".
This isn't in John 6 by chance. For all we have to do is go to Psalm 23 where we read:

"JEHOVAH is my shepherd I shall not want. HE MAKES ME TO LIE DOWN IN GREEN PASTURES.  And if we can read John 6 carefully we will see
that Jesus is showing Himself to be JEHOVAH by "making" the men to "sit down on the grass".

Do not dishonor Jesus Kenneth.  He is GOD without a doubt.
e sins

57
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« on: Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 11:14:36 »
Kiwi Christian-----  You are correct:

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24)

Please note that the word "he" is in italics---the actual translation is "I AM".  If one does not confess Jesus as God after coming to
an understanding then they have missed the salvation message. If we believe Jesus to be anything less than God Himself we do not understand,
and have not received the Gospel message.

58
End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Tue Apr 17, 2018 - 10:26:54 »
3 Resurrections---

I read your post below in amazement. You truly believe that Satan has been destroyed. And yet you ignore history and the Spiritual Warfare that is definitely
taking place.  You have to look closely at the attempted annihilation of the Jews. This wasn't just some evil plan man came up with----no this was a definite
satanic attack.  Satan KNEW that a momentous event was about to take place----and he was attempting to stop it.  If there are no Jews, there can be no Jewish
nation.  World War 2 ended in 1945 and 6 million Jews were destroyed in the process.  Yet, in 1948 the Jews returned to their homeland.

This was a Spiritual battle that was waged. And Satan did his utmost to destroy the Jews. But God's will MUST be done----and Israel formed despite Satan's
attempts to thwart it.  Satan is fully aware that the re-formation of Israel is a direct signal that His end is VERY NEAR. He therefore (in his insanity) attempted
to stop it.

You are blinded 3 Resurrections. You are willingly and willfully accepting a theology that is blatantly false.  Satan is very much alive and active in the world right how---
and Jesus Christ is very close to returning to this planet as He promised.  Satan has YET to be bound for 1000 years. And once He is finally released, shortly there-
after He will be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever.  THIS IS YET FUTURE.

59
End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 12:04:19 »
3 Resurrections said:

>>>once Satan and his angels were destroyed in the Lake of Fire during the AD 70 siege of Jerusalem. <<< 

Satan has not been "destroyed" in the Lake of Fire in 70 AD---I have no idea where you get that idea.  Satan WILL BE bound for
a thousand years in the future--He is presently consigned to this earth and is filled with rage. That is why he attempted to destroy the Jewish
people during WW2---his hate for God's people knows no bounds.  Your theology is really all over the place.

60
End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:33:30 »
Larry----

When jesus returns the saints will be raptured and the Tribulation will begin.  During this period taking place on earth, the Judgment seat of Christ will
take place. the FINAL JUDGMENT will occur at the very end of time (after Satan has been bound for a thousand years and the Millenium has occurred)---
the Judgment Seat of Christ is an entirely different event and takes place much earlier than the final judgment.

61
Theology Forum / Re: Passages on uses of SPIRIT
« on: Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 17:54:52 »
Kenneth-----  there you go with your obvious heresy once again.  I will only take the time to post (3) verses which clearly show the HOLY SPIRIT is a PERSON. (Go to john 16 for more proof). You basically have to ignore a great portion of the New Testament not to understand that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON.

Only a PERSON could "tell us".  You can only bring sorrow (grieve) a PERSON.  Only a PERSON could "appoint overseers".


"Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons". (1 Timothy 4:1)

"And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption". (Eph. 4:30)

"Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers". (Acts 20:29)



63
Theology Forum / Re: SALVATION?
« on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 15:27:39 »
Please forgive me.  I am so saddened by the picture in this link, but feel I must share it.  It is of a child who has wandered deeply
into sin and we need desperately to pray for him.  Please take a moment and do so will you?

https://www.google.com/search?q=trumpet+player+picture&rlz=1C2VFKB_enUS609US609&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=78aotEoJh_2LhM%253A%252CZipskmHkCadj-M%252C_&usg=__on-uSOQKdBOQ5IFvar7yuReplmM%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4nOXWo4PaAhUW1GMKHVLLBeQQ9QEILTAC#imgrc=78aotEoJh_2LhM:

64
Theology Forum / Re: SALVATION?
« on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:18:33 »
jaime----

Thanks for the post and explaining what you meant!   ::smile::

65
Theology Forum / Re: SALVATION?
« on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 14:09:02 »
Jaime----

I added to my post below to clarify what I am saying.  Here is the point:

To clarify a bit: If baptism is critically important to salvation, and Paul baptized (5) people, I think he would remember whom he baptized.  if Baptism is not critical to salvation, then Paul could
easily forget whom he had baptized.  I hope that makes what i am saying a bit more clear.

Thanks

66
Theology Forum / Re: SALVATION?
« on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 13:47:20 »
Kenneth said----

>>>Paul's job was to PREACH THE GOSPEL which DEMANDED being Baptized to become a DISCIPLE of Christ. PAUL planted BUT APOLLOS WATERED.<<<

I think you and Jaime are missing my point. Of course it was Paul's job to preach the Gospel.  But if baptism is SO IMPORTANT, and a major step in the salvation
process don't you think Paul would REMEMBER whom he PERSONALLY BAPTIZED?

Again, a hypothetical:  Billy Graham PREACHED to millions of people. Could he tell you whom and how many he led to the Lord? No--most likely not.  But if Billy
only baptized (5) people in his life, and he KNEW he had had a PERSONAL hand in completing their salvation, do you think he would REMEMBER these people?  I do.

That's the point I'm making. And seriously, I think that is WHY that sentence is in the Bible. It's there to make us THINK.

To clarify a bit: If baptism is critically important to salvation, and Paul baptized (5) people, I think he would remember whom he baptized.  if Baptism is not critical to salvation, then Paul could
easily forget whom he had baptized.  I hope that makes what i am saying a bit more clear.

67
Theology Forum / Re: SALVATION?
« on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 12:52:57 »
What I find extremely interesting in Paul's statement is this:

"besides, I know not whether I baptized any other".  In other words, he doesn't remember if he baptized anyone but those he named.

Think about that for a moment. I give you a hypothetical question.  If you saved someone from drowning would you remember it?  Maybe you
saved (5) people from drowning during your life----would you remember them?  I think you would.

So, if Baptism is so important to salvation don't you think Paul would REMEMBER who he baptized?  I personally think he would.  But that's
just my opinion of course.

68
Theology Forum / Re: SALVATION?
« on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 11:43:30 »
angelic---

I didn't see your post earlier. I would just ask that you go back and read Matt. 7:21-24 carefully.  The false professors state "IN YOUR NAME" in front of all the good works they claim they
have done.  I would disagree with you concerning "I NEVER KNEW YOU". Everything in the Bible has been placed by the Holy Spirit for a reason.  I believe this statement is made
to tell us these are NOT true believers.  You will recall that Jesus sent out the Apostles to cast out demons, and Judas was amongst them.  He was given the authority to cast out demons
even though he was not a true believer in Christ.  We see this later when Jesus says that He already knows that "one of you is a devil".

When Peter and Jude speak of the false teachers, he mentions they are "impersonating" true teachers. Paul states that Satan Himself, and his "ministers" are able to
"transform themselves into angels of light".

Note what Jude says about these teachers though (he also calls them "false apostles"):

"These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit". (Jude 19)

They DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT---meaning they are NOT SAVED.

In Acts it also mentions those who were attempting to cast out demons in the name of Jesus.  In this case the demon attacked them.  But this shows us it is possible to do things
"In the name of Jesus" without really being ONE OF HIS.

"Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.”   Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?
” (Acts 19: 13-15)

69
Theology Forum / Re: SALVATION?
« on: Wed Mar 21, 2018 - 18:47:20 »
angelic----

It is very important to read those verses carefully.   Here they are:

"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matt 7:22-23)

Note that Jesus says to them "I NEVER knew you".  He doesn't say "I ONCE knew you".

But then we have this verse in Galatians about believers:   "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?" (Gal. 4:19)

The people in Galatians are KNOWN BY GOD---yet those mentioned in Matthew 7 were NEVER KNOWN by Him.

Thus, we can conclude that those mentioned in Matthew 7 were not REAL believers at all.  They had the NAME of Christians, but had never been changed and born-again.

It is SO important to investigate Scripture to make sure we are understanding what it is saying.

70
Theology Forum / Re: A Sin Unto Death.
« on: Wed Mar 21, 2018 - 13:52:27 »
4WD----

Anti-works "tirade" huh?  lol.  I'm sorry 4WD but a "reward" is given for something that is "done".  The winner of a race is given a "reward" (a medal) for winning or placing.

I am not going on a tirade----I am simply stating that Heaven is NOT a reward--it is a GIFT from God.  And as long you think of Heaven as being a reward you are
indeed basing getting there on your performance.  I mention profound misunderstanding because I have seen it used often on this board.  If one believes in eternal security then
they must surely believe they can do whatever they want and still go to Heaven.  That is a profound misunderstanding of Eternal Security.  A person who believes in Eternal Security and
who is truly saved would never state that now they "can do whatever they want".  That very attitude shows they are NOT SAVED AT ALL.  Because a true work of Grace in their
hearts would have produced a completely opposite RESULT.

As far as "rewards" I do believe they are mentioned in Corinthians and Revelation.  Whether one receives (1) crown, more than one crown, or no crowns at all-----the reward is based on what you do AFTER YOU ARE SAVED.  What did you do with your gifts?  And what is very interesting is that those crowns will be thrown at the feet of Jesus in the end anyway---because even the rewards could not have been gotten without His Grace.   I will repeat though, if you think Heaven is a reward you are profoundly mistaken.

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