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The Bible is Catholic. 

The Council of Trent; Pope Paul III, Session IV:



Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year 1546.

received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession.

And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second.

Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle
. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.

The KJV has only been in existence since the apostate Catholic priest Martin Luther mutilated the Catholic bible into his own false creation.  The bible of man.

Who is talking about the KJV?

Show me in this post where i even mentioned it?

the catholic Bible came from the apostate and anti-Christian alexandrian text line, so be careful about throwing stones, my friend.
Theology Forum / Re: Moses And The Comfort Zone
« Last post by Kenneth Sublett on Today at 23:12:01 »
A Tibia made by me and my dog.

John Calvin on what is OUTLAWED for the Church in the wilderness.

    Certainly ivory and gold, and riches, are the good creatures of God, permitted, nay destined, by divine providence for the use of man; nor was it ever forbidden to laugh, or to be full, or to add new to old and hereditary possessions, or to be delighted with music, or to drink wine.
    This is true, but when the means are supplied to roll and wallow in luxury,
            to intoxicate the mind and soul with present
            and be always hunting after new pleasures,
            is very far from a legitimate use of the gifts of God

because natural reason dictated that nothing could be engaged in successfully without Divine assistance; but God would have His people bound to Him in another way, so that,
        when called by the sound of the sacred trumpets as by a voice from heaven,
        they should assemble to holy and pious deliberations.

The circumstance of the place also has the same object. The door of the Tabernacle was to them, as if they placed themselves in the sight; of God. We will speak of the  , mogned [synagogue

We have said that the priests, when they sounded, were, as it were, the organs or interpreters of God, that the Israelites might depend upon His voice and commandment. If the princes or heads of thousands only were to be called, they sounded only once; if it was a convocation of the whole people, they doubled the sound. A similar distinction was observed in war, that a different signal should be given, according as the camps of either side were to advance. Some use the fictitious word taratantara, Note 77

    Note 77 Thus Malvenda in Poole’s Syn., “et clangetis taratantara ” The word is used by Ennius “At tuba terribili sonitu taratantara dixit.” — Serv. in, AEn, 4. A.V., “an alarm."
clango , no
I.perf., ĕre, 3, v. n. kindred with crocio, glocio; cf. clamo and klazō, to clang, to sound, resound (rare; only in ante-class. and post-Aug. poets): crepitu clangente, Att. ap. Non. p. 463, 16: “horrida clangunt signa tubae,” Stat. Th. 4, 342; cf.: “luctificum clangente tubā,” Val. Fl. 3, 349: clangunt aquilae, Auct. Carm. Phil. 28.

and thou a boy scarce ripe for the embraces of Dryads or the passions of Erymanthian Nymphs. ::baby:: Omens tell true: I wondered why Diana’s temple seemed to me of late to tremble, and the goddess herself to frown upon me, and why the votive spoils fell from her roof; this it was that made my archery slack and my hands to falter and never to strike sure. Nay, wait till thy prowess be greater, thy years more firm, till the shadow come upon thy rosy cheeks and my likeness fade from thy face. Then I myself will give thee the battles and the sword for which thou dost burn, and no mother’s tears shall call thee back. Now take back thy weapons home! But you, will you suffer him to go to war, ye Arcadians, O born assuredly of rock and oak?” 39 More would she fain entreat; her son and the chieftains thronging round console her and lessen her fears, and already the bugles’ horrid signal blares forth. She cannot loose her son from her loving embrace, and commends him earnestly to his leader Adrastus.
Theology Forum / Re: Ephesians 2:8
« Last post by Thaddaeus on Today at 23:04:55 »

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Through Adam's sin, judgment came resulting to condemnation, not physical death. Through Jesus' righteous act, the free gift came resulting to justification, not physical life.
why not stick with the text rather than your paraphrase which changes the meaning.

Yes the soul is also created, but it is not material, not of the dust. So, it will not return to dust.
Both would have ceased to exist. If they are created elements they were condemned to death. As I stated before it is precisely why Christ in assuming our human nature took on both body and soul of man. 

The death spoken of is not the loss of eternal existence, but is the state of existence. It is a state of existence, the opposite which is life.
which is the same thing. If one has no existance after death, then it is a loss of eternal existence. Man was created to be eternal. Death is not natural to man.

Salvation is exactly being given life, as having life and opposite to having death. To be resurrected, it does not mean that anyone who is resurrected, have eternal life, but that, one's spirit which departed from their bodies when they died, comes back to their bodies. And because their former bodies have since decayed and returned to dust, they will be given a new body. We can only say that, the new body of those who will be raised to the resurrection of life, is that fit for heaven, and the new body of those who will be raised to the resurrection of condemnation is that fit for hell.
you are conflating again between eternal existence and eternal life. They are not the same.
The resurrection is precisely that of giving life. That is precisely what I Cor 15:12-22 is stating. It has nothing to do with how scripture uses the term "eternal life".  Eternal life is related to our spiritual relationship, not our actual created and recreated existence.  Both those bodies and souls of heaven and hell will be rasied the same way. There can be no difference. Christ assumed our human nature, that includes all men. It does not differentiate between heaven and hell. That is what I Cor 15:52-54 is stating. All the dead means all the dead. There are no qualifiers in that context.

You asked "How does Christ save you by you inheriting eternal life?"

Can you please ask your question, perhaps, in another way, as I don't quite get what it is you are exactly asking.
You have been consistantly stating that salvation and eternal life are the same thing. You state also that a believer is saved but you never state from what he is being saved from.

So you agree that God had not assigned anyone to dust.
God permitted Satan to have dominion over man. Man, Adam condemned himself by his disobedience. Just as all men now have a choice to either condemn themselves or to be joined with Christ. God does not send anyone to hell arbitrarily or on any eternal degree as some teach.

Our being mortal is not to be blamed for our sin. We sin because we decided to not obey God, not really because we are mortal Sir.
Our mortality just makes us suseptable to sin easily. We have a very difficult time in regulating our passions, or our human nature. But sin is a choice which is why we are responsible for it. Your answer lies in I Cor 15:56.

Of course there is no text that says " ONLY believers have been condemned to death". But to the contrary, consider these texts:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Your texts are irrelevant to the question. But your first sentence is the correct answer. It says clearly that all men have been condemned to death and all men have been given life, I Cor 15:22.  It is an equation.

As I have said, see the text in bold, where by it, Paul qualifies the "all" in each case.
I agree he does but you fail to undertand what he is actually saying. We all, mankind, have inherited death, our mortality through Adam. We all, mankind have inherited life through the resurrection of Christ. The in Christ is Christ Incarnation meaning He assumed our human nature, you know the same human nature that Adam had and all men have, that we were all created with.

With respect to Adam, our connection to him is that we are born of him, of his seed. With respect to Christ Jesus, not all men are of His seed, but only those who are born again, of Him, of His seed. Not that those who are born again, are born in the same way they were born of Adam, that is, of flesh, but that, of the Spirit.
I must assume that you do not actually believe in the Incarnation. You consistantly deny it with your explanations as you do here. Every single human being was recreated by Christ by the act of His Incarnation. Which is why I asked, when object in this world, that looks just like a human being but is not a human being that Christ did not assume in His Incarnation. If you have an answer for this question, then you can state that not all men were recreated by Christ's resurrection.  If you can show limited atonement in scripture then you have a point.

Unbelievers can repent, if God will grant them repentance.
Can you cite a text that says God denies anyone repentance. Do you think that God is playing games?  He states that He is calling all men to repentance. It also says He will not deny anyone admittance. So if God is doing all of this work to make sure every man has a free choice, why do you doubt scripture?

No human being will ever ceased to exist Sir. For death is not a cessation of existence, but a state of existence. 
that depends. If Christ did not come, then it would have been a cessation of existence.  But then that is precisely why man needed Christ in the first place, to correct what man could not do.

You said "This resurrection is not possible without Christ's resurrection, with our human natures."

Resurrection of anyone or all men is ever possible with God Sir. And that even if Christ did not incarnate, died, and resurrected. We have several occasions where people were raised from the dead, even before Jesus resurrected from the dead. 
Wow, you are so far outside of scripture, even after our extensive discourse. In your understanding just what was the purpose of Christ coming? why was He Incarnated? Why was He resurrected? 
You have eliminated every scriptural answer to those questions. You have created a wholly new understanding that I cannot find anywhere in scripture and have never heard (read) such a statement ever before.

What scriptures do you want me to show you? That He had chosen and elected a people for Himself? That He will put His laws in their mind and write them on their hearts? That He will be their God, and they shall be His people?
It is those that will believe, that love Him. He did not choose anyone to believe or to love Him.  That is man's free choice.

What Eph.1:4 says is that the Christians were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world. God did not chose those in Christ to be the elect. There is no such thing. But that, the Christians were chosen by God in Christ.
Now you state it correctly.

You said "God calls all men to repentance." And that only shows that all have sinned. Also that, God loves mankind, even while they have sinned against Him. However, that does not mean that He can't chose a people for Himself and put His laws in their mind and write them on their hearts, and that He will be their God, and they shall be His people.
He will only do that when they believe. When they become members of His Body, the elect.

You said "He desires that all men come to know HIM." But that does not mean either, that He can't chose a people for Himself and put His laws in their mind and write them on their hearts, and that He will be their God, and they shall be His people.
see above. God calls, man chooses. When man chooses to become a member of the elect then God works with those that are united with Him. 

You said "Adam sinned and death (mortality)was effected." I disagree. Death is not mortality Sir. And it is the fruit that affected the body, and not really the sinful act of disobedience.
can you cite any text in scripture that says the fruit effected death? Or any text that states that Christ came to correct the effect of the fruit?

You said "Eternal existance, immortality was lost." No Sir. Adam was not created immortal. For if he was created immortal, death could have no power over him. Only God is immortal.
Never stated such. Adam was not created either mortal or immortal. He had the freedom of choice to attain either one. We know He sinned and the condemnation of that sin was death, mortality. Since man lost life, existence as a human being there was no hope for man to attain immortality which was supposed to have been man's mission on this earth. Since man lost life, only Christ could restore it which He does by His Incarnation and resurrection of our natures. Christ now will grant all men immortality and incorruptiblity, I Cor 15:52-54.

You said "Eternal life is the spiritual relationship we have if we believe in this life, are faithful and will inherit eternal life at the resurrection." This statement, by itself, is unclear and erroneous I would say. You define eternal life as that you have it in this life and then inherit it some time future.
Yes, every believer possesses eternal life IF they are IN Christ. Nowever, that eternal life has obligations to meet. If they are not met, then you will not inherit eternal life.  The New Covenant works the same way as a mortgage. You make a down payment. you actually own the house, but you will recieve the title if you continue to fulfill the obligation of that mortgage. Very simple construct.


I would like to offer infallible documents [Douay-Rheims bible and Papal] on the prohibition of all sex acts which is lust and the satisfaction of lust, excluding the marriage act itself i.e. natural copulation between a married man and a woman, for love of children, not lust.   The documentaries are at the bottom.  They are fantastic and very edifying!

In the book of Tobias, it speaks about lust i.e. any act that satisfies lust and the marriage act, which is strictly for the procreation of children within the sacrament of Matrimony, for the purpose of filling up heaven, not hell.  This narrative plays out in a real human event.  The Archangel Raphael and Sara, the daughter of Raguel gives the descriptive narrative and why her seven husbands were killed by the devil.  God ordained it to happen because of lust, i.e. the abuse of the marriage act to satisfy lust!  The inversion of the intrinsic nature of the sex act.

The narrative given, starts with one of Sara's father's servant maids, she thinks that Sara killed all [7] of her husbands.  If this happened in society today, everyone would think the same thing.  Sara reproves the maid but the maid replies back, with a curse and calls Sara a murderer and says are you going to kill me next!?

Tobias 3:7-10 Now it happened on the same day, that Sara daughter of Raguel, in Rages a city of the Medes, received a reproach from one of her father's servant maids, [8] Because she had been given to seven husbands, and a devil named Asmodeus had killed them, at their first going in unto her. [9] So when she reproved the maid for her fault, she answered her, saying: May we never see son, or daughter of thee upon the earth, thou murderer of thy husbands. [10] Wilt thou kill me also, as thou hast already killed seven husbands?

 Sara, being very upset at the encounter with the maid, she goes upstairs in her house, fasting for three days and nights in tears, thinking that maybe this curse is because of her and not the lustful husbands.  Raguel, Sara's father also prays but separately.  She asks God to take away this reproach or let her die.  She goes on to explain to God, that she never acted lustfully and never participated with anyone who committed lustful sexual acts i.e. walking in lightness.

Tobias 3:10-16 At these words she went into an upper chamber of her house: and for three days and three nights did neither eat nor drink: But continuing in prayer with tears besought God, that he would deliver her from this reproach.  And it came to pass on the third day, when she was making an end of her prayer, blessing the Lord,  She said: Blessed is thy name, O God of our fathers: who when thou hast been angry, wilt shew mercy, and in the time of tribulation forgivest the sins of them that call upon thee.  To thee, O Lord, I turn my face, to thee I direct my eyes. I beg, O Lord, that thou loose me from the bond of this reproach, or else take me away from the earth. Thou knowest, O Lord, that I never coveted a husband, and have kept my soul clean from all lust.   

After three days of prayers, God answers Raguel the father and Sara, his daughter by sending St. Raphael the Archangel.

Tobias 3:24-25  At that time the prayers of them both were heard in the sight of the glory of the most high God: And the holy angel of the Lord, Raphael was sent to heal them both, whose prayers at one time were rehearsed in the sight of the Lord.

Chapters 4 and 5 deal with Tobias the father and Tobias his son and how eventually Tobias the son marries Sara but is afraid because it is widely known, concerning the story of Sara's [7] husbands.  St. Raphael explains to Tobias why the husbands died and how marriage and the marriage act is to be used.

Tobias 6:16-17, 22  Then the angel Raphael said to him: Hear me, and I will shew thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevailFor they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power.   And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children.    [the seed of Abraham=Catholic church]

What did the [7] husbands do that they died, and were condemned to hell?  Each of them died after their first relations with Sara.  Why?  Because they shut out God, using the withdrawal method, spilling their semen on the ground.  This evil behavior is not new, its found in the book of Genesis, with a man named Onan!

Genesis 38:9-10 He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother's nameAnd therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Papal document that forbids all forms of birth control.

Pope Pius IX; CASTI CONNUBII December 31, 1930:

17. Since, however, We have spoken fully elsewhere on the Christian education of youth,[18] let Us sum it all up by quoting once more the words of St. Augustine: "As regards the offspring it is provided that they should be begotten lovingly and educated religiously,"[19] - and this is also expressed succinctly in the Code of Canon Law - "The primary end of marriage is the procreation and the education of children."[20]

53. And now, Venerable Brethren, we shall explain in detail the evils opposed to each of the benefits of matrimony. First consideration is due to the offspring, which many have the boldness to call the disagreeable burden of matrimony and which they say is to be carefully avoided by married people not through virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in matrimony when both parties consent) but by frustrating the marriage act. Some justify this criminal abuse on the ground that they are weary of children and wish to gratify their desires without their consequent burden. Others say that they cannot on the one hand remain continent nor on the other can they have children because of the difficulties whether on the part of the mother or on the part of family circumstances.

I would like to clarify something pertaining to paragraph #53, many bad willed men attempt to use it to support natural family planning or the rhythm method, which is evil and forbidden.  Any acts, ways or devices used to frustrate the intrinsic procreative nature of the marriage act is forbidden.  Concerning Virtuous Continence, which is allowed by the Catholic church, this means a man and a woman, who agree to get married but want to remain virgins, not unlike Mary and Joseph.  That is why its called Virtuous because virginity is a virtue!  Men will always twist and pervert the truth that condemns them, in order to sooth and placate their own evil consciences.  They only fool themselves.  Lets continue with Pope Pius IX.

54. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.

55. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, "Intercourse even with one's legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it."[45]

Concerning paragraph #55, Pope Pius IX is talking birth control and specifically about the withdrawal method, pulling out and wasting the man's semen on the ground, I cited it above Genesis 38:9-10. 

59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin. Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.

In paragraph #59 Pope Pius is talking about two distinct classes of people, a man and a woman beyond the child bearing years and a woman because of natural defects, within her, cannot have children i.e. "on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects".  This does not pertain to couples who can have children.

And so, a man's seed belongs in one place only, which produces a child, inside a woman.  The devil and the world says its normal for men to act like a dog, with their tongues hanging out at woman, after all, that is the manly thing to do.  Its dead wrong.

Matthew 5:28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.

1 Corithians 6:18-20  Fly fornication. Every sin that a man doth, is without the body; but he that committeth fornication, sinneth against his own body.  Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?  For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body.

Ecclesiasticus 6:17-18  [17] He that feareth God, shall likewise have good friendship: because according to him shall his friend be. [18] My son, from thy youth up receive instruction, …

It should be noted here that Adam and Eve did not mind being naked before their fall.  Why?  Because their genitals, to them, were nothing more than a hand, leg, finger, a nose, or an ear to them.  It was part of their bodies in innocence.  The genitals of a man and a woman are part of an evacuation system, thats all.  But with the disobedience of Adam, their nakedness was exposed and as a consequence concupiscence.  This concupiscence is to be fought against, not given into, its not normal, it is the consequence of disobedience.  But in fact, the world says to embrace it and that it is normal, this is what makes you a man!  WRONG!, those who follow that are devoid of grace, weak minded and insecure and on the road to damnation.

Galatians 5:16-19, 21-24  I say then, walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the fleshFor the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would.  But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law.  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, … Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.  But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.  And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.

Here is a playlist of documentaries concerning lust, the journey into hell etc.

Theology Forum / Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Last post by AVZ on Today at 22:44:28 »
Why could he not be God when he needed to be God and be a human when he needed to be a man? God can do the impossible. The 100/100 explanation is at least as ludicrous as my toggle theory. On the Mount of Transfiguration, he became who he needed to be in that scenario.

I believe Jesus DID become fully human. He laid aside his Godness in that case, and then picked it back up in other cases. Again if he was tempted as anything but a human, his resisting the devil is not remarkable. He was afterall at that time a Holy Spirit empowered Human. But I don't believe he resisted the temptation with his Godness. And I believe he suffered on the cross without his Godness. All his choice.

I can live with it being an inexplicable mystery, it's just that 100% God and 100% man is a very poor explanation of the inexplicable.

"God can do the impossible."
Yeah that argument can be used everywhere, anywhere and in any circumstance. You say that 100% + 100% is illogical and makes no sense...I could as well use your argument "God can do the impossible" to refute your stance. So I am not really prepared to take that as an applicable argument for this discussion.

"The 100/100 explanation is at least as ludicrous as my toggle theory."
I am of course glad you call your own theory ridiculous   ::smile::
In my defense the 100/100 theory is descriptive and it has been used for many centuries to describe the scenario.
In fact, taken mathematically, even you describe to it.

See, you agree that Jesus was FULLY human and FULLY God.
Mathematically speaking, full means 100%.
99% means less than full, and 50% means half-full.
So even you agree that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God.

What you disagree with is that Jesus could not be both at the same time.
Hence, you propose the toggle theory, where Jesus was OR man OR God, but never man AND God at the same time.

"And I believe he suffered on the cross without his Godness. All his choice."
I don't think that at all. The suffering on the cross is one of the greatest paradoxes that exists in scripture.
Yes, as man Jesus suffered...but as God He was ultimately pleased.

Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him"

I believe Jesus went to the cross BECAUSE He was God, He let Himself be nailed to the cross BECAUSE He was God, He submitted to the suffering BECAUSE He was God, He desired the pain BECAUSE He was God.
The pain was human, the task was divine.
Theology Forum / Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Last post by AVZ on Today at 22:17:03 »
Another reason I mention it that Jesus started his ministry AFTER the Holy Spirit came upon him like a dove. He faced Satan's temptations as a man, BUT a Holy Spirit empowered man. An example of the power WE have available to us as humans.

I've got to think more about your comment.

But doesn't that confirm what I said all along? That it was impossible for Jesus to cave in to the temptation of Satan?

In a previous post you stated:
"In other words, if he was tempted in all things just as we are, he did so somehow without his divine attributes."

But now you are saying that the power of the Holy Spirit (which is a divine attribute) caused Jesus to succeed.

If Jesus was fully God, then Jesus had the full power of the Holy Spirit at His disposal.
The Father cannot give in to evil, the Holy Spirit cannot give in to evil, then Jesus who was filled with the Holy Spirit could not have given in to evil.
Theology Forum / Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Last post by AVZ on Today at 22:07:09 »
I was trying to think of an illustration that might help communicate what I have in mind about Jesus' humanity and divinity. Of course any illustration will fall way short, at least mine, but it is the best I can do for now.

I was thinking of a man who is a husband and a father. Sometimes his job takes him out of town for months at a time, and his wife has to keep up with the hands on parenting without him.

While the man is away on the job, does he cease to be a husband or a father? He is not able to be hands on with either role while he is gone, but he does not stop being either one. That is how I see Jesus while on the earth prior to His resurrection. He was still Jehovah God (there was never a time He was not God), but while here He did not exercise His divinity as such, at least not entirely like He did prior to His incarnation and after His resurrection/ascension.

I think of His calming the storm, walking on water, turning water into wine, and raising the dead. While I agree with 4WD and believe He did works by means of the Holy Spirit, does that include all His works. I would say the works I just listed were by faith, so perhaps that has to mean by the Spirit.  ::shrug::

It deserves careful study.  ::reading::


I think your analogy fails to achieve its goal because what you describe is not a state of conflict.
There is not conflict between being a father and being husband. And there is no conflict between being both at the same time.
What you describe is a state of FUNCTION, where in one scenario the task requires fatherly duties, and in the other scenario it requires the tasks of a husband.

In the case of Jesus being both fully God and fully human, we have a state of conflict.
God, by definition, is not human...and humans, by definition, are not God. These natures are in conflict with each other, and they logically exclude one each other.
So in Jesus' case we are not discussing a state of function, we are discussing a state of BEING.

The question whether Jesus as a human being performed miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit is rather irrelevant.
The power of the Holy Spirit comes from the same source: God. The power of the Holy Spirit is God.
And since Jesus was and is 100% God, He did receive the power from Himself.

The scenario that Jesus had to receive power from an external source to perform miracles, would be in conflict with His divinity.
The Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son are of one accord. What Jesus wants, the Father and the Holy Spirit also want!
What the Father wants, Jesus and the Holy Spirit also want. There is no conflict.

There would be no imaginable situation where Jesus could not have performed a miracle because He was not empowered by the Holy Spirit.
This is different from us, we can only perform miracles if enabled by the Holy Spirit. The apostles could only perform miracles if enabled by the Holy Spirit.
Most of the time we people are unable to perform miracles, because we are not enabled or because we are not in one accord with God.
In Jesus' case such a scenario did not and could not exist.
Theology Forum / Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Last post by Kenneth Sublett on Today at 21:58:46 »
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
        ALL POWER is given unto ME in heaven and in earth.

The Spirit or BREATH is how God the Father conveys information and Jesus the Son ARTICULATES the Mind of God which, like WIND as the only literaly meaning of Pneuma, cannot be seen or heard until that breath goes through the mouth of Jesus.  The POWER comes from the FATHER and it is transmitted wiith BREATH.

Eph. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD of God:

Psa. 55:21 The WORDS [Dabar-Logos] of his MOUTH were smoother than butter,
        but war was in his heart:
        his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.

After Jesus Articulated THE WORD transmitted by God's spirit or breath, He said my WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

The POWER was given to JESUS as the only one who REVEALS or makes. God Known.

G1411.  dunamis, doo´-nam-is; from 1410; force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself): — ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

1Cor. 5:4 In the NAME of our Lord Jesus Christ,
        when ye are gathered together, and MY spirit,
        with the POWER of our Lord Jesus Christ

2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, [Jewish Fables]
        when we made known unto you the POWER and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
        but were eyewitnesses of HIS majesty.

Matt. 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he HEALED them.
Matt. 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

Matt. 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

2Tim. 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit OF fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The spirit OF fear is the mind or mental disposition of fear.

Spirit only produces WORDS.

Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
Is. 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;
         My spirit that is upon thee,
         and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
         shall not depart out of thy mouth,
         nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
         nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
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