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Prayer Requests Online and Praise Reports / Re: My parents
« Last post by Alan on Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 11:22:16 »
Prayer Requests Online and Praise Reports / Re: My parents
« Last post by Texas Conservative on Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 09:39:20 »
How is your dad doing today?

Would he be up to something like ivermectin?
Bible Verses / Romans 4
« Last post by pppp on Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 09:29:33 »

Romans 4
Abraham’s Faith Made Him Right With God
4 What should we say about these things? What did Abraham, the father of our people, discover about being right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he

couldn’t brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, “Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham’s faith, and so his faith made him right with God.” (Genesis 15:6)...

....13 Abraham and his family received a promise.
16 The promise is based on God’s grace. The promise comes by faith. All of Abraham’s children will certainly receive the promise. And it is not only for those who are ruled by the law. Those who have the same faith that

Abraham had are also included. He is the father of us all. 17 It is written, “I have made you a father of many nations.” (Genesis 17:5) God considers Abraham to be our father. The God that Abraham believed in gives life to the dead. Abraham’s God also creates things that did not exist before.

18 When there was no reason for hope, Abraham believed because he had hope. He became the father of many nations, exactly as God had promised. God said, “That is how many children you will have.” (Genesis 15:5) 19 Abraham did not become weak in his faith. He accepted

the fact that he was past the time when he could have children. At that time Abraham was about 100 years old. He also realized that Sarah was too old to have children. 20 But Abraham kept believing in God’s promise. He became strong in his faith. He gave glory to God. 21 He

was absolutely sure that God had the power to do what he had promised. 22 That’s why “God accepted Abraham because he believed. So his faith made him right with God.” (Genesis 15:6) 23 The words “God accepted Abraham’s faith” were written not only for Abraham. 24

They were written also for us. We believe in the God who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. So God will accept our faith and make us right with himself. 25 Jesus was handed over to die for our sins. He was raised to life in order to make us right with God.
Bible Verses / 1 Chronicles 16:11
« Last post by pppp on Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 08:06:55 »
Look to the Lord and his strength;
seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 16:11
Prayer Requests Online and Praise Reports / Re: My parents
« Last post by yogi bear on Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 07:41:20 »
Prayers going up for your parents and you as well.

The fundamental difficulty here is that we, being physical beings, have no experiential bases for anything other than physical. Seriously, we can't even describe our own spirits. All attempts to define what our spirit is always comes down to expressing some aspect of our physical being and characteristic.  So how then does God describe Himself to us.  He must relate to us in the only things we understand and that is the physical.  Even the male pronouns used in speaking about God are physical descriptions.  There is no suggestion in that use of male pronouns that God actually has male genitalia.

We think of heaven as a place, because we are not really capable of thinking of it in any other way.  It must be a place.  But place is physical. Heaven is a spiritual realm.  We say that, but again, realm has a physical connotation.  We simply have no way to imagine, or visualize, or conceive of the spiritual except in physical comparisons or types. 
End Times Forum / Re: Gathering the Harvests
« Last post by 4WD on Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 07:11:06 »
Wrong? Based upon man's fairness?
First of all for the one who believes in God of the Bible, the only fairness is the fairness that comes from God.
Quote from: RB
Actually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions.
Actually, there is not one word in the bible about God making Adam the head/representative of anyone.  That is simply one more of your Augustinian/Calvinist constructs created to align with your false doctrines.
Quote from: RB
Do you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one?
I most certainly do.  The one presented by God Himself.  The one where God doesn't condemn the entire company of humanity for the sins of one man.  Not only does God not condemn all humanity for what Adam did, God does not condemn even one other human being for what Adam did.  There was/is no need for God to do that.  Why?  Because, "... death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:13).
Quote from: RB
If you have a more righteous plan, then let me hear it.
You have heard it again and again, and you have read it from God's word, but it doesn't align with your TULIP scenario and therefore you reject it.
Quote from: RB
Would you rather be put under a covenant works WITH your sinful nature in order to inherit eternal life? .
Why would I want that?  I am not in fact under a covenant works. to inherit eternal life.
Quote from: RB
He was created after God's image, which image consisted of wisdom, righteousness, knowledge! An image that God did not give to the rest of His creation. Besides, I KNOW what this image consisted of by understanding what the NEW MAN in Christ has been created in....
Interesting.  As stated by God, Adam was created without a knowledge of good and evil.  He obtained that after disobeying God and eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You say that the God did not give to the rest of His creation the image that He gave to Adam. Where, exactly, did you read that?  Genesis 5:1-3 tells that God created Adam in His own likeness.  Nothing there says anything about Adam not having that image.  It then says Adam's son was born in Adam's likeness, after his image.  Again, there is nothing there that would even suggest that the Adam's likeness was any other than the likeness in which God created him.
Quote from: RB
He knew, but allowed his wife to deceive him~Satan deceived Eve, and Adam allow his wife to lead him to disobey God. He sinned with his eyes open, unlike his wife, who was beguiled by the serpent.
There are several red flags to be cast down with that statement.  He knew but she didn't? Where do you get that?  She was deceived by Satan, but he was only deceived by Eve.  You say that like there is a difference.  What? His sin was somehow not as bad as hers?  His eyes were open but hers were what? close? Where in the world to you get such stuff?
Quote from: RB
They only had ONE commandment, which was no to eat of the tree in the midst of the beautiful garden. Many of the ten commandments did not even applied to them before their fall into sin.
First, you have no idea at all what other commandments were given to Adam and Eve.  And second, it doesn't really matter if they did or didn't; the simple truth is they disobeyed the one identified in Genesis 3. Whether there were others is moot.  It only takes one.
Quote from: RB
First, it clearly said: No, 4WD, IN ADAM all die~meaning when Adam sin, all his posterity DIE, spiritual,
Again, you are making stuff up.  All the expression, in Adam, which by the way occurs only once and that is in 1 Corinthians 15:22, is simply a signifying of being human.  That verse is, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive". "In Adam" is the physical while "in Christ" is the spiritual. As a physical being we will die, as a spiritual being we will live. There is absolutely nothing in that verse that speaks about Adam's sin having anything to do with our dying.

In getting ready to exegete on Romans 5:12, you said,
Quote from: RB
Bear with me, it's going to be detail so, there can be no misunderstanding of the truth in this scripture.
You then proceeded to eisegete the absolutely worst bit of Calvinist doctrine I have yet seen.

Just for reference, Romans 5:12 says, (ESV)  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Quote from: RB
The first Adam separated himself and us from God
That is pure RB talk.  That is simply not in that verse anywhere.  And all your "explanation" goes south at that point.  while the sin of Adam did indeed cause some sort of a separation between Adam and God, it was not one of complete separation as you would indicate.  God continued to be able to converse with Adam and Adam understood quite well what God was saying.  There was no Total Depravity established in Adam by his sinning.  But even more, nothing about that one way or the other is discussed in that verse.  It says that "sin came into the world".  Here "the world" (as in John 3:16) is the world of mankind, the physical sphere of human beings; sin had already entered world of angels through the sin of Satan (1 Joh 3:8).  Paul adds here that death entered through sin.  As I have repeated here so often, the death that entered through sin was not physical death, but rather spiritual death.  I think it is well accepted that the physical death of the entire animal kingdom existed as a part of creation.  So clearly physical death was not introduced as a result of Adam's sin.  Moreover, from Genesis 3:22, it is self-evident that Adam's physical death was only an indirect result of his sin; Adam's physical death was the direct result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which had the property of sustaining physical life, i.e., the putting off of physical death.  Thus what entered the world as a result of Adam's sin was spiritual death; and it entered by way of Adam's spiritual death, his estrangement from God. 

Next, Paul says, so death spread to all men.  Why or how? Paul says, "death spread to all men because all sinned-- ". There is no ambiguity in what Paul says. It is because all sinned.  It is not because Adam sinned; rather it is because all men sinned.
Quote from: RB
As by one man~Here is the doctrine of representation~one man representing many men in the sight of God. Here is the doctrine of imputation~the act(s) of one man being applied legally/judicially to others. This doctrine is also called ancestral sin and federal headship of Adam and other manmade names.
There is no such thing there.  There is no representation even suggested there.  It is a simple statement that sin was first introduced to this earthly world by the one man, Adam.  And with that sin, Adam, died spiritually.  The manner in which everyone subsequent to Adam died spiritually was through their sins, i.e., "death spread to all men because all men sinned".  They did it to themselves. They didn't die through any representation.  They died through their own sinning.
Quote from: RB
Use of “as … so” means, “As this occurred in this specified manner … so this event also occurred that same specified way.” This powerful form of grammar is found in verses 12,15,16,18, and 19.
That is a true statement.  It is really too bad that you have not really understood that powerful form of grammar.  What exactly does the "" here tell us.  It says, just as Adam died spiritually because of his sin, so also all men die spiritually because they all sin.
Quote from: RB
And death by sin~Death is the necessary consequence and result of sin before a holy and righteous God (6:23). God told Adam very plainly for all to read that he would die if he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). Sin and death (Gen 2:17) were brought into the human world by Adam’s sin (5:14; 6:23). Spiritual death came immediately (Genesis 2:17; Ephesains 2:1), physical death came 930 years later for Adam (Genesis 3:19; 5:5; Hebrews 9:27), and eternal death awaits final execution (Revelation 20:6,14).
But again, physical death came, not the direct result of Adam's sin, but as a result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer haveing access to the life preserving fruit of the Tree of Life.
Quote from: RB
A judicial sentence was passed ~death was assigned to all men as the just and holy punishment, even to infants and ignorant (5:14), for Adam’s singular sin in the Garden of Eden.
You keep talking about physical life and death.  Nothing in the whole of Romans 5 has anything to do with our physical life and death.  The only physical death that is mentioned is Christ's physical death on the cross.

And the entire rest of your comments there concerning Romans 5 is nothing more than an Augustinian/Calvinistic atrocious attempt to promote Original Sin and the even worse Total Depravity.  You presented above the "powerful form of grammar" of the "" construction.  Then in all of your discourse concerning the verses from 12 on, you ignored the truth presented by it.

The point of the "" construction is in the truth presented in the "as" part of the statement.  In verse 18: (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. , the first thing we need to see is that we have "as .....upon all men....; even so ....upon all men....". Thus, whatever the "as" refers to, it is upon all men, and by the powerful form of grammar then whatever the "so" refers, it is also upon all men.

Having established the absolute consistency demanded by the "" construction, we next look to see what it is that is confirmed for all men.  In verse 18 the "as" part seems clearly to indicate that by Adam's offense brought condemnation to all men.  How?  You and many others have concluded that condemnation comes upon all men at birth.  You call it Original Sin.  I agree.  So then what should we conclude came upon all men by Jesus' righteousness?  Paul said justification of life.  How? Well to be consistent, one must conclude that justification of life comes upon all men at birth.  I call that Original Grace.

So what does that mean? What is it that Paul is trying to tell us?  What Paul is saying there that the effects upon all men of what Jesus did negated entirely the effects upon all men of what Adam did.

It is important to note that none of the discussion in verses 12 through 19 have anything to do with what we have done.  None of it speaks to the effects of our sins.  Paul takes up that discussion immediately following in Chapter 6.

That entire passage speaks only to the comparison of the effects of Adam's disobedience and the effects of Jesus' obedience.  The fact is that what Jesus did wiped out completely the effects of what Adam did.  Only in that way could Paul say, speaking of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience that "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"[ (v.19)/i].
Prayer Requests Online and Praise Reports / Re: My parents
« Last post by Rella on Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 06:17:47 »
To all my masters here,

Maybe I can be more clear in my post. My point had been to use by example ancient Hebrew text that indicates God the Father
likely has a shape similar to that of the man he made.

It is true that every single time the subject of Genesis 1:26 is brought up the discussion follows the reasoning that God only meant to make man in the like manner of His own spirit self ... NOT as  an animal walking upright on 2 feet that we know mankind to be.

It also follows that the description that the author of Exodus used in Mose's journey up the mountain and what it was that talked to him, and hid his sight from Him, and only allowed Moses to see his back side was misleading because Moses could not have seen anything other then the tablets he was given.

It is obvious that no matter who defines the word image is wrong, unless they are defining only the spiritual side of man.

The interpretation from the ancient Hewbrew texts, ( The word "image" is translated from the Hebrew tselem, and it means "shape, resemblance, figure, shadow.") to the biblical definition of image

So they are wrong too.

I stand corrected.



Multiple decades ago I took the "Dale Carnegie Sales Course" to help me better sell my designs.

One thing they emphasized, in those days.... early 80s... was to get on a first name basis with your clients.
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