Author Topic: IM in the churches of Christ  (Read 9906 times)

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:41:51 »
Marc i agree somewhat with you. That judgement against those who employ instruments can be so wrathful and innapropriate.
Thus the issue is, of course, not just the right or lack of the right to have instruments, it is the heart of the one who approves or disapproves.

I personally don't know of any brethren who stumble by singing acappella music.

The stumbling of an IM congregation comes when someone tells them to do away with their instruments. It's about holding on to what you have, demanding you're right to have them, and not letting someone else tell you what to do. Those aren't humble, loving reasons for having IM.

If they have a stumbling block it is when they are then angry and hateful at being told what to do (or not to do rather); they can even go so far as being selfish in their desire to keep what they have. That is their stumbling block. The stumbling block is not the lack of instruments itself. It is the means of getting there.

To not have IM is not a stumbling block. Christians can be assured that they are doing right by God if they are simply singing. However to have IM is a stumbling block because after years of debate, by many smarter than me, it simply cannot conclusively be found in the NT Christianity.

*     To add IM to non-IM brethren is a sin by causing divisiveness and strife = tools of the devil. The non-IM congregation can know that their singing is sufficient Biblically, but do not have the same iron clad knowledge for the addition of instruments.

*    To remove IM from a congregation is a stumbling block only in that individuals may try to keep them by their selfishness = tool of the devil. It is not a sin to not have the IM and does not harm your worship to not have IM. At least I've yet to see a church split over an acappella song they may sing, though an instrumental song certainly has had that effect for others.

\"Hardlining\" this issue on both sides is such a mistake. To refuse to fellowship Christians for using IM, like you mentioned Marc, is simply destructive to our need for unity. And the insults and presumptiveness I've seen many IM-ers hurl verbally and in books against those who see no reason to add them is equally destructive. Our stances have been \"of Satan\" on both sides. To rectify that means more work on the heart all around.

To choose in your heart to accept IM relies so much on Old Testament relationships with God that it likely can never be seen as acceptable all the way around for a New Testament church.

But to chose in your heart to reunite the church of Christ by using your voices alone in praise will certainly have New Testament scriptural basis all the way around for a New Testament church - both in the means of worship and the action of re-unification.

This, then, is the issue of \"a more perfect way\". The first may be perfect, but the second is more perfect. Or a better translation seems to be \"a more complete way\", as we seek to complete ourselves by being one in spirit and truth, in worship and love.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Vessel I agree with you though not as strongly.
I love the acapella tradition. I don't care to see a push to go instrumental in the churches of Christ, though I would shout with joy if we could just reach the point of accepting that it is a matter of preference rather than law whether we use them or not.
I'd be happy with telling the Disciples that we were wrong for condeming them for having an organ and sharing a nice brotherly hug.[/quote]
And Amen to your post Arkstfan! While my position does seem strong against IM, it is not because I can prove it as a sin, heavens no! It is strong because our lack of unity keeps souls from finishing the race both within the church and among those who observe our triffling from outside; and brothers that is a pain that rends my very soul and swells tears upon my heart like the pounding of an ocean upon a single grain of sand.

Woe to us! A sinful and broken generation, far removed from the joy of unity in Christ our Lord prayed for. [/u]

It would indeed be a fantastic day when all believers may accept many areas of division as mere preference, and this may indeed be such an issue. Such hugs are so needed my friend. Thanks!

Offline charlie

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« Reply #71 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 13:45:52 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I also wonder of everyone: If there were animals sacrificed to Baal, or Allah, or to Saint Anthony; And all this meat was mailed to the doorsteps of our churches with their history included; Would we truly, i mean truly in a convicted way, would we truly be comfortable having a pot luck feast of meat sacrificed to altars and idols of other Gods?

Maybe the Bible teaches that it's permissible, but by faith in my God Jehovah, I personally would abstain from anything associated with this worship of false gods. It would not be beneficial to my Christian growth or search for a more complete way/church. How about you all, truthfully?[/quote]

We all know that an idol is nothing in the world. Hypothetically, we may have former Baal worshippers in our midst, but we all know that'll never happen. Former Catholics would probably laugh at a piece of meat signed, \"sacrificed to St. Anthony\" so no problem there. And former Muslims still worship Allah, they just now believe that he came, lived and died and was raised for our sins (Allah be praised!).

So to answer your question about whether I would be comfortable in my conscience eating that meat, I would say unreservedly yes.

The goal of compromise is not to straddle the fence permanently, but to appeal to everyone while teaching them all the truth of the matter. That way, the temporary crisis is diverted and, in time, you have everyone eating together with a clear conscience.

Paul was dealing with the consciences of former idolaters. We in the 21st C are well past that issue (at least in the worship of gods; not sure what other things we are guilty of idolizing within our worship settings). Now what we've done is created an issue to get over. We have some NT examples of compromise for the sake of the body (Acts 15, Rom 14, etc.) and we have other examples of telling people who are imposing their laws on others to stop it or face God guilty of division and hypocrisy (Matt 23). So on the IM debate, which is it going to be?

Offline Trois

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« Reply #72 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 20:10:59 »
Hey everyone,

This question is really a matter of theology and hermeneutics. If you hold silence to be prohibitive in matters of the assembly then there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you hold silence to mean there are allowances in matters of the assembly then you can use instruments in NT worship.

If you believe in a hardline CENI type hermeneutic for the practice of the \"church\" there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you have a more loose hermeneutic (not meaning to be perjoritive) you will say that it's allowable because the scriptures don't say \"don't do it.\"

Well, who's right? I know why I sing acapella. I know also why I think it's allowable for me to enjoy gospel music that's not acapella. My question is for those who think it's alright to have it in worship is, \"Do you think that the worship assembly is commanded by God and must the activities during this time have a scriptural authorization? Or is Sunday worship just a convenient time to fellowship with other believers and share the love of Christ?\"

I'm not meaning to be sarcastic at all. I just think that if we can answer this question we could come to a better understanding on the whole IM dilemma. :saint:  :noddingsmiley:

Offline brandt

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« Reply #73 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 09:31:39 »
abs,

The problem is, where in the New Testament did God, through the Apostles, give us clear guidelines of worship?  We have the Old Law which was written word-for-word instruction for every task under that covenant.  In the New Testament, do we have a clear cut worship ceremony carved out by scripture that is unmistakingly clear?

Brandt

Offline dgdodd

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« Reply #74 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:53:26 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,11:04)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread. The examples we know of are the traditions and commands and doctrines that all those verses noted that we should follow.

Surely the congregations that were being written to knew what those commands and conducts and teachings were.

These letters were to be circulated to all churches for all time, including ours. So we need to try and find out what traditions and examples these groups were sticking to, to know what teachings came from the apostles.[/quote]
It seems to me that the apostles would be following the teachings   of (what we call) the Old Testament.  Here are just a few:

2 Samuel 6:5
And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.

1 Chronicles 15:16
And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.

Ezra 3:10
And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.

Nehemiah 12:27
And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites out of all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem, to keep the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings, and with singing, with cymbals, psalteries, and with harps.

Psalm 150:3
Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

Psalm 150:5
Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

   That was just a VERY SMALL sampling of the recorded use of instruments for praise and worship in the OT writings.  That is what the apostles were taught. And what about the example we have in Revelation?  There are instruments at the Throne of God in heaven, why can't we have them here?

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 14:2
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Just my first thoughts to your post,
Damaris

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #74 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:53:26 »



marc

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« Reply #75 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:12:53 »
Of course when the NT church sang Psalms they edited out all the references to instruments. :saint:

marc

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« Reply #76 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:25:29 »
Just a note as to why I'm being so direct and adamant:  This has been talked to death.  I grew up hearing and using these arguments.  I used to know them all, but I see more being invented every day.  This is a divisive issue, not because people want to use instruments, but because people continue to condemn people for doing something that is not even mentioned in the New Testament, one way or another--but is clearly approved by God--the same God we serve--in the Old Testament.

Then, as now, what was most important to God was people's hearts.  He is concerned about our turning to him, taking on his identity, his characteristics.  Read through the New Testament and you see the recurring theme (possibly best expressed in Romans 8), God wants to change his people, to mold them, to make them his representitives on earth.  He wants the world to look at us and see a unity in us that is given by the Spirit and is held together in the bond of peace.

I don't give a whit whether or not we use instruments.  I do care, however, that we continually rip apart the body of Christ by condemning those who disagree with us on matters not addressed in scriptures.  Check out Romans 14-16 and consider this:  who is the divisive person Paul said to make note of?  The one who disagrees or the one who will not put up with differences?

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« Reply #77 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:39:55 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Where is yours, marc? Where's the one that says we don't have to follow the conduct and doctrines of the apostles? We have no, I mean zero, Biblical refrences of a NT church using instruments. They were following the same examples that we are to follow.
Oh yeah, I wasn't talking to you.  oops![/quote]

I thought I was being direct, but maybe I wasn't being clear enough.  I'm going to step back and restate my question:

You have provided a long list of scriptures that say we should follow examples.  Assuming these scriptures mean what you say they mean (and without your referencing the context that is hard to say), these will only be relevant if accompanied by scriptural examples of exclusive acapella singing as part of a corporate New Testament worship service.  I am searching for these examples.  Please help me find them.

Offline charlie

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« Reply #78 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 14:09:17 »
who said they were autonomous?

Offline Booty

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« Reply #79 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:02:20 »
Other. Not an issue. We have neither an instrument nor a building in which to house an instrument, therefore why concern our selves with a trivial tradition of men when we have weightier matters before us?

If we ever do acquire an instrument, it will come from the same source as our building, the grace of Jesus Christ. If He sees fit to furnish us an instrument, we will use it. If not, we will not.

Offline kanham

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« Reply #80 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:17:10 »
I am trying to follow some thoughts on this thread.

Was Paul wrong to oppose Peter to his face in Antioch when he wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles? Wasn’t circumcision being used as a test of fellowship by some?

If we truly believe that IM is a non issue why is it such an issue?

Why is it acceptable for IM to destroy unity with other brothers because it will hurt our unity with our sectarian brothers?

Offline spurly

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« Reply #81 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:56:02 »
Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #82 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 14:09:42 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 27 2003,11:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin[/quote]
kevin:

there are NOT many more im-ers than there are a cappellaists

dj

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #83 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 17:28:33 »
kevin & shorty:

you are correct and i have miscounted, sorry.

225,000,000  orthodox
   2,000,000   coc
   1,000,000   primitive baptists

are all mostly a cappella.  they come nowhere near 1 billion catholics, but not all catholics endorse instruments.  even so,
the im numbers cannot be surmounted.

dj

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« Reply #84 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:04:04 »
No Brandt I don't know that we have clear guidelines for many, many parts of our worship. ;)

However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread. The examples we know of are the traditions and commands and doctrines that all those verses noted that we should follow.

Surely the congregations that were being written to knew what those commands and conducts and teachings were.

These letters were to be circulated to all churches for all time, including ours. So we need to try and find out what traditions and examples these groups were sticking to, to know what teachings came from the apostles.

A great deal is unsaid, like meeting places, or times to gather, etc.; but that which is said, we can know to be examples and commands and doctrines that we are to \"follow\" and \"keep\" and \"obey\". Does that makes sense?
 ???  :noddingsmiley: ?

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« Reply #85 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:49:20 »
I repeat: Should we follow the examples of the apostles or not?

Offline Richard

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« Reply #86 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:11:08 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]  That was just a VERY SMALL sampling of the recorded use of instruments for praise and worship in the OT writings.  [/quote]
Here is another one I came across last Sunday.

20 The LORD will save me,
and we will sing with stringed instruments
all the days of our lives
in the temple of the LORD .

Isaiah 38:20

Richard

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #87 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:26:08 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,08:24)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!
[/quote]
vs.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.


2 Thessalonians 3:7
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

3 John 1:9
I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.
(this is a negative thing)


1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the and doctrine which you have been following.

2 Timothy 3:10
Now you followed my teaching, conductpurpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
conduct is example in other translations


2 Thessalonians 3:14
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

2 Thessalonians 3:9
not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, \"We must obey God rather than men.

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

liberty? does that mean freedom from the pattern, command, example, conduct, tradition, purpose, doctrine, and obedience of the apostles/ Holy Spirit?
(please accept this list not as an attack, but for the sake of learned discussion)
if one lives \"according to the traditions received from [the apostles]\", can one do things outside that tradition and still be living according to that tradition?
if we \"continue to do what [the Holy Spirit] commands\" was using IM one of those commands?
how much do these verses apply to what we ought to be doing together?
 ???  :D[/quote]
Philippians 3:17
This verse has nothing to do with worship. It is about struggling against the world pressing toward heaven.

2 Thessalonians 3:7
Not about worship but rather about working and supporting yourself.

3 John 1:9
Being critical of a church for failing to help those who are ministering.

1 Timothy 4:6
Certainly not worship related but more importantly it is in opposition to those who create extra rules.

2 Timothy 3:10
In context this not about worship but learning from Paul's faithfulness despite persecution.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
Continuation of the idea expressed above that Christians should not be idle. Not about worship.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
Again not about worship

Acts 5:29
This isn't even close to being about worship. This is Peter's answer when he is told that he isn't supposed to be preaching about Jesus.

Philippians 2:12
Nothing about a pattern of worship, instead about Christian living.

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #88 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:39:26 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,10:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian living is worship.
Do you suggest that we only obey the apostles' examples in certain areas, not all areas? That they refer only to those exact occurances with no wider application!?
 ???[/quote]
Ah, but then if instruments are not to be part of Christian living then we should be work against them in all settings.

You are the one who brought up the verses to support a pattern of worship.

Show me the verse where Christ or any apostle warned against instruments.

Now I can show you plenty about killing, about being prideful, about denying Christ, placing something or someone ahead of God, lying, stealing, cheating, being sexually immoral, hating, ridiculing, obeying the government, etc.

We know that some worship took place at the Temple, we know that instruments were often used there.

WHERE IS THE WARNING AGAINST THEM!!!!

This isn't like power point or bound hymnals that did not exist in 45 AD. Instruments existed, they had been used as part of Jewish worship for century upon century.

Did these men who so boldly proclaimed the truth at risk of death lack the boldness to say \"Stay away from instruments\"? The instruments were there speak up and tell us!

Yet they didn't.

Offline spurly

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #89 on: Sat May 24, 2008 - 19:20:48 »
The top vote getting option on this poll is interesting.  Allowed then and allowed now.  Your thoughts?

Offline zoonance

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #90 on: Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 14:39:05 »
Quote from:  link=topic=3820.msg65577#msg65577 date=1043772560
I repeat: Should we follow the examples of the apostles or not?


This is a basic question isn't it?  Examples of what? They also left their jobs to preach.  Probably a multitude of "apostolic examples" we could think of.  Do we follow Peter before or after he gave into the jewish pressures?  Should we spend more time as a literal prisoner for preaching?  If not why not?  etc etc etc A much better question is "Should we follow the teachings of the apostles or not?  That may or may not be the same. 

Offline DCR

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #91 on: Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 14:45:31 »
Are examples really as binding as commands?

It seems that we tried to make "C" and "E" equal in importance.  I'm not sure how valid that is.

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #92 on: Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 15:52:20 »
Allowed in Scripture.

Whether it's appropriate or not depends on where you are.

blituri

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« Reply #93 on: Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 16:31:04 »
Show me the verse where Christ or any apostle warned against instruments.

Now I can show you plenty about killing, about being prideful, about denying Christ, placing something or someone ahead of God, lying, stealing, cheating, being sexually immoral, hating, ridiculing, obeying the government, etc.

We know that some worship took place at the Temple, we know that instruments were often used there.

WHERE IS THE WARNING AGAINST THEM!!!!

This isn't like power point or bound hymnals that did not exist in 45 AD. Instruments existed, they had been used as part of Jewish worship for century upon century.

Did these men who so boldly proclaimed the truth at risk of death lack the boldness to say \"Stay away from instruments\"? The instruments were there speak up and tell us!


False: I am surprised that there are so many people doing what they know will sow discord that have NEVER caught on to to the STORY LINE of the Old or New Testament. On my worse days I would say that most preachers are afflicted with a terminal case of Biblical illiteracy.

Card Class slow ones of the slow group would wonder why the SERPENT in the garden of Edne is really defined as a "musical enchanter(ess) which any one famiiar with serpent worship where they worked out cube root problems on clay tablets would understand.  Why would it not count that Christ in the prophets saw the King of Tyre as a personification of the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." Or why personified as the king of Babylon would go into "hell" with his harps and burried alive harpists (he has been excavated).  Or why no singer or player could come NEAR any holy thing without getting killed. Did they "just have a bad mental attitude."

You don't grasp the TWO THREADS which any reader would look for in any history.

The Spiritual people lived under the Covenant made by Christ to Abraham and restated by Paul in Galatians 3.
After the fall from that grace because of MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai God turned the Levi tribe over to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

        Guess you missed Jacob's warning in Genesis 49 NOT to attend the assemblies of Levi.
        Guess they were not teaching Acts 7 when you "passed through" the universities.
              Otherwise, being alert and taking food you would ask? WHUT THAT? God abandoned them to
              worship the STARRY HOST?  WHUT THAT? Whut means worship of the starry host.
              Maybe I need to worry about that before spreading HATE against those who can read.

Christ ordained The Church of Christ in the wilderness: the word is Qahal (synagogue) or ekklesia in Stephen's warning which got Him killed by those who "thought" they were doing God's will AT THE TEMPLE.  Guess you missed "whut means Holy Convocation" each REST day (from rituals) to READ and REHEARSE the Word of god.


By the direct commands of Christ the Rock that HOLY convocation did not permit anything which was UNHOLY. Now, the Levites were an old Egyptian baby burning cult who "made the lambkins scream out a messate from Molech."  That ALARM which Judas tried on Jesus outlawed:

Vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

Now, if you grasp that the Church of Christ was NEVER more than a school of the Word of God with NO staff infection, even Simple Simons understand 'maybe I should not sing, clap, vibrate my body and play instruments while God is teaching us His Word." But, alas, didn't cover that at ACU etal.

The NATIONAL sacrificial system (not worship) was IMPOSED when the elders said that they wanted a SENIOR PASTOR instead of God so they could worship LIKE the nations: Egypt, Canaan, Assyria, Babylon with their own ziggurat at Temple called Sodom and the Mother of harlots.

God warned that the kings "given in His anger" would rob, steal and drive them into captivity and death. One of the most evil things God says that the king and his MINISTRY TEAM would take their girls for the guys and the young boys to make and blow "instruments of chariots" and be the first killed in battle.

No one but the Civil watchers and the Levites not on duty are the only ones who WORSHIPPED which always meant to FALL ON YOUR FACE in holy terror when all of that EXORCISM NOISE was to "make the lambs dumb before the slauthter." Yes, they musicallly mocked Jesus as prophesied and fulfilled.

The SYNAGOGUE always existed for the SPIRITUAL PEOPLE in every small town where the so colled "worship" was directly commanded by Christ and carried out:

Acts 15:21 For Moses
      of old time hath
      in every city
      them that preach him,
      being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

That ALWAYS happened while the Levites were PROFANING the Sabbath (making music) because they had already been abandoned by God.

Jesus EXAMPLED the synagogue by standing up to READ and then SITTING down decently to permit feedback.

The EKKLESIA used by Jesus met roughly every week for VERBAL DISCUSSION ONLY. The singers, players and other pollutants were consigned by Jesus to the MARKETPLACE where Jesus consigned the pipers, singers and dancers.

Paul used synagogue words and Simple Simon knew that by direct command and universal respect never had a praise service. Simple Simony could understand why.

Paul EXCLUDED the diversities in Romans 14 which would be any thing which arose out of the human mind and specificially in the marketplace where the sects defined by DIET would cross pathes.  In Romans 15 He outlawed SELF PLEASURE which any Greek novice could tell you outlaws all of the HYPOCRITIC artsand crafts or anything which creats "mental excitement."

Paul practiced that in histravels and DIRECTLY COMMANDED Timothy to;

Give attention to the public READING of the Word to Doctrain (contained in the read portion) and exhortation which means encouragement.

Silly Suzy was never so deprived that she or he would even THINK that SINGING externally as an ACT for the "school of the Bible." That was left for an Assyrian who tried out SINGING as an act to sing HIS OWN songs and so violate the direct commands. That ACT did not begin in some congregations until the year 373 and THAT came to split the east from the West churches. 

All historic scholars and all founders of denominations denounced any of the AROUSAL practices when they attended SOLELY to READ the Word, discuss it and do the "evangelism act" of the Lord's Supper.

I am quite sure that none of the troublers have ever dared to speak of any of the prophets writing by the Spirit of Christ who RADICALLY repudiate the whole sacrificlal system and the Civil-Military-Clergy sect as robbers and parasites,.

Most of the temple was in the hands of foreigners and there is no reference of musical sacrifices which has ceased shortly after the Return on the old grand scale.  They were called ROBBERS by Jesus.

No NON-Levite would have been INSIDE the walls if they maked an animal slaughter.
No Levite (singer, player) could come CLOSE to any holy thing.
No civillian had ever done worship with singing and instruments at the temple.

There were thousands of synagogues where they READ the Scripture and preachers like Jesus went OUT to preach.

No honorable Jew did not know that music was a mocking part of paganism always connected to sexuality and homosexuality.

Did you know that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels with a word meaning LIKE DUNG.
The New Testament is filled with words directly condemning musical paganism

The word SPORT or PLAY probably didn't get covered at ACU or the preacherling-changelings would blush out loud when they said that the New Testament does not condemn.

Do you think that the Babylon mother of harlots (Reve 17) using lusted after fruits (Rev 18) as speakers, singers and instrument players John called SORCERERS has nothing to say.  Oh! Didn't cover that when I "passed through."

And yet I am certain that there is one poster who if you heaped ANTI instrument passages on him all day would say "well that's just your opinion" or "that doesn't count."










Offline zoonance

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #94 on: Fri Sep 18, 2009 - 19:33:37 »
Well that's just your opinion and that doesn't count.

blituri

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #95 on: Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 13:06:03 »
Yes, my opinion and the Bible and all historic scholarship agrees.  For instance, David's PRAISE word vizualized in his naked, musical dance with the camp-following girls, is an example what people NATURALLY did who were "turned over to worship the starry host."  That's where your preacher / scholar cannot connect Stephen's life-threatening preaching from the PROPHETS and therefore the CONTRARY view of Christ, get their "God commanded instrumental praise and we must NOT disobey" authority to lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows: the scribes and pharises as hypocrites (preachers, singers, instrument players" were petty criminals compared to them.

The praise word halal reall means to make yourself vile and all of the performande was "performing the role of women." it was used to threaten sodomy and death to any one who did not turn coward.  Is there a parable there.

It is the ROOT meaning of LUCIFER meaning to make a Light or Sound show to steal people's property.

It is identical to another word. Chalal .  This word links to the END TIME Babylon mother of harlots who uses the lusted after fruits (same term Amos used) who used speakers, singers and instrument players as sorcerers.  John says that these are the SAME ones who HAD deceived the whole world and brought on destruction.

The Mark of the Beast has this connection:

Thereuo motions of the hands of dying persons, decoy, chase afer sexually, to be preyed upon, to be taken captive, hunt after pleasure. Pimplemi of an orator : fill full, satisfy, glut, filled up with wine,

Pindar, Nemean 11 [1] Daughter of Rhea [Eve, Zoe mother of the gods] , you who have received the town hall under your protection, Hestia, sister of Zeus the highest and of Hera who shares his throne, welcome Aristagoras to your dwelling, and welcome to a place near your splendid scepter his companions, [5] who, in honoring you, guard Tenedos and keep her on a straight course; [6] often they worship you, first of the gods, with libations, and often with the savor of burnt sacrifice. Lyres and songs peal among them, and Themis, who belongs to Zeus the god of hospitality, is honored with everlasting feasts...  the dark fields do not give fruit continuously, [40] nor are trees accustomed to bear an equal wealth of fragrant flowers in every circling year, but in alternation. And thus the race of mortal men is led [43] by Fate. But no clear sign comes to mortals from Zeus. Nevertheless we embark on bold endeavors, [45] longing for many deeds, for our limbs are bound by shameless hope, while the streams of foresight lie far away. But we must hunt for due measure in our love of gain. The madness of unattainable desires is too sharp.

Thêrion III. as a term of reproach, beast, creature,  hê mousikê aei tikainon thêrion tiktei

     Which means A NEW STYLE OF SONG, MUSIC OR DRAMA

When Apollo, the Having-fallen star unleashed the LOCUSTS or MUSES, they immediately began sowing discord and breaking up churches of all faiths. Because the muses were adulterers and exercised the AUTHENTIA authority Paul warned about, their "performance" is both erotic and murderous. They bring on WRATH which means an ORGY.

This is a MARK of the beast.

       Sêmeion 2. sign from the gods, omen Kathair-eô to s. to take it down,
       strike the flag,
            as a sign of dissolving an assembly, And.1.36; to tês ekklêsias,
       3. of sorcerers, bring down from the sky, selênên [sign in the moon].  *
       V. less freq. like the simple [heresy] hairein, take and carry off


You will notice that when the lucusts or "musical worship teams" TAKE AND CARRY OFF the whole church other than the few ELECT, they also get the vision or hear voices to STRIKE THE FLAG and shut down the ekklesia as a school of the Bible (only) and REMOVE the name of CHRIST from their public confession.

They DISSOLVE the ekklesia and CONVERT it into a synagogue of Satan: a house of merchandise. This is he same HERESY connected to the SELF-pleasing terms used by Paul in Romans 15.

ZOE (Lucifer) and some of the ACU misleaders are CALLING DOWN GOD'S HOLY FIRE! What is the MARK of the BEASTS calling down the FIRES?

Incentor , o-ris, m. [id.] , one who sets the tune or begins to sing, a precentor, singer I. Lit.: carminis, Paul. Nol. Carm. 15, 32 : [1] incentore [2] canam [3] Phoebo  [Abaddon] [4] Musisque [5] magistris,

SIGN: the Magistris A superior, director or conductor. The MARK of Minerva Meerva (Etruscan, Menfra). One of the great Roman divinities, the goddess of wisdom; identified with the Greek Athené She was worshipped as the patroness of all the arts and trades, and at her festival she was particularly invoked by all who desired to distinguish themselves in any art or craft, such as painting, poetry, further believed to be the inventor of musical instruments, especially wind instruments, the use of which was very important in religious worship, and which were accordingly subjected to a sort of purification every year on the last day of the festival of Minerva.
 
II. Trop., an [A] inciter, exciter: [A1] igneus [C] turbarum, Amm. 15, 1, 2 : civilis belli, Oros. 5, 19 : rebellionis [renewal of war] totius, id. 6, 11 . Flamen Hislop

Incensor I. one who kindles or sets fire to, II. Trop., an inciter, instigator: turbarum,

[2] Căno I. Neutr., to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play.  2. Of the faulty delivery of an orator, to speak in a sing-song tone: inclinată ululantique voce more Asiatico canere,  once canituri,Vulg. Apoc. 8, 13 )

PROMOTING DAVID'S PRAISE WORD--HALAL--HAS THE SAME MARK AS CHALAL.

After Enosh when men began to CALL themselves god:

The traditional Jewish interpretation of this verse implies that it marked the beginning of idolatry, i.e. that men starting dubbing "Lord" things that were mere creatures. This is because the previous generations, notably Adam, had already "begun calling upon the name of the Lord", which forces us to interpret הוחל huchal not as "began" but as the homonym "profanated". In this light, Enosh suggests the notion of a humanity (Enoshut) thinking of itself as an absolute rather than in relation to God (Enosh vs. Adam). Wikipedia

Adam
Clark:
Verse 26. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.] The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos
        the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves,
        and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God;
        those of the other branch of Adam's family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men. It must not be dissembled that many eminent men have contended that ljwh huchal, which we translate began, should be rendered began profanely, or then profanation began, and from this time they date the origin of idolatry. Most of the Jewish doctors were of this opinion, and Maimonides has discussed it at some length in his Treatise on Idolatry; as this piece is curious, and gives the most probable account of the origin and progress of idolatry, I shall insert it here.

"In the days of Enos the sons of Adam erred with great error, and the counsel of the wise men of that age became brutish, and Enos himself was (one) of them that erred; and their error was this: they said, Forasmuch as God hath created these stars and spheres to govern the world, and set them on high, and imparted honour unto them, and they are ministers that minister before him; it is meet that men should laud, and glorify, and give them honour. For this is the will of God, that we magnify and honour whomsoever he magnifieth and honoureth; even as a king would have them honoured that stand before him, and this is the honour of the king himself. When this thing was come up into their hearts they began to build temples unto the stars, and to offer sacrifice unto them, and to laud and glorify them with words, and to worship before them, that they might in their evil opinion obtain favour of the Creator; and this was the root of idolatry, &c.


That's NOT just my opinion: that is the well defined MARK OF THE BEAST (the Nachash or Musical Enchanter and not a snake) in the garden of Eden who is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." It is the MARK OF THE BEAST for the END times as clearly defined by John.  All you have to do is READ that which has written: church history proves that all religious error spewed out of pulpits and schools begun by honest believers.

Offline farouk

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #96 on: Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 13:08:46 »
 ??? ::pondering::

Online Jaime

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #97 on: Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 13:11:51 »
??? ::pondering::

Don't worry Farouk, we're all kinda  ??? about Blituri.  ::whistle::

blituri

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #98 on: Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 14:22:32 »
The false teachers say and YOU probably believe them when they say that NONE of the church fathers had anything negative to say about "instrumental music in worship."  Well, one of the reasons is that THERE WAS no instrumental noise in the churches.  They go on to claim that Clement said that  "if you want to play the lyre there is no blame." What they don't tell you is that Clement was speaking of what we would call "pot lucks" and even then he allegorizes the lyre.

In the olden days a Bible scholar was a student of the Bible! That's so radically strange these days that it drives people into hand clapping when they hear the UNIVERSAL understanding of these men who knew the languages, knew the PAGANISM that Moses and the prophets wrote against and understood that common decency does not WAGE people to perform what is always called WITCHCRAFT or SORCERY. They find it totally outrageous that anyone would believe John in Revelation when he connects the HYPOCRITIC arts to gender-bents and the Babylon Mother of harlots.  Now, I would never accuse anyone but we HISTORY LITERATE people wonder (not) why so many people want musical performers to get enraptured over: even to the extent of DRIVING OUT the owners from their "synagogue."

Here's another TOKEN bit from all of the 100 PERCENT of all recorded history explaining the Bible which is not a required book for theologians. Whatever you believe about these who were the only era of true scholarship, you will be EXCITED to learn some Bible TIME LINE and that your hireling-preacherling musical people manage to take people captive when they have O PERCENT of information in FAVOR and O PERCENT which does not MARK them as the BEASTS which means A MASSED MULTITUDE.

Recognitions of Clement Chapter XIII.-Origin of Idolatry.

http://www.piney.com/FathRecClemBIV.html#P2218_636510

"But when all these things were done, men turned again to impiety; and on this account a law was given by God to instruct them in the manner of living.

But in process of time, the worship of God and righteousness were corrupted by the unbelieving and the wicked, as we shall show more fully by and by.

Moreover, perverse and erratic religions were introduced, to which the greater part of men gave themselves up,
by occasion of holidays and solemnities, instituting drinkings and banquets,
following pipes, and flutes, and harps, and diverse kinds of musical instruments,
and indulging themselves in all kinds of drunkenness and luxury.

Hence every kind of error took rise; hence they invented groves and altars, fillets and victims, and after drunkenness they were agitated as if with mad emotions.

By this means power was given to the demons to enter into minds of this sort, so that they seemed to lead insane dances and to rave like Bacchanalians; hence were invented the gnashing of teeth, and bellowing from the depth of their bowels; hence a terrible countenance and a fierce aspect in men, so that he whom drunkenness had subverted and a demon had instigated, was believed by the deceived and the erring to be filled with the Deity
.

They MISSED the MUSICAL IDOLALTRY at Mount Sinai and Romans 1 which defines this same account which is well documented in the Bible. Bible? You know: that thingy the preacher and musicators had CHAINED to the pulpit this morning.  Paul said in effect that the Corinthians and other "fools love to be fooled." That MAY in fact keep them in captivity to prevent them from doing WORSE spiritual terrorism

Chapter VII.-Sacrificial Orgies. The wrath Paul prevented with men lifting holy palms and the women not waving unholy arms.

"But they did not cease to worship images, by reason of the evil intelligence of the magicians, who found excuses for them,

    which had power to constrain them to the foolish worship

For, establishing this things by magical ceremonies, they assigned them feasts from sacrifices, libations, flutes, and shoutings,
        by means ofj which senseless men, being deceived, and their kingdom being taken from them,
        yet did not desist from the worship that they had taken up with.

To such an extent did they prefer error, on account of its pleasantness, before truth.
        They also howl after their sacrificial surfeit, their soul from the depth, as it were by dreams,
        forewarning them of the punishment that is to befall such deeds of theirs.


I think that being part of the MINORITY of two or three people is the RIGHT side of the issue.

When Paul said "don't get METHUO on wine" the Greek literature defines that as "getting FLUTED down with wine." This word can mean intoxicated with ignorance or intoxicated with passion and pride.  The literature is 100% in agreement that "spiritual intoxication" through the use of music was the PAGAN THING to do.

BEASTS are the "massed multitudes" but to find Jesus you have to go OUTSIDE that group and suffer reproaches with Him. Not too bad since the gospel means REST from the "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals."  And that is the ONLY place Jesus will be this day teaching the twos and threes DEMANDING rest from whatever oozes out of their minds.

Offline farouk

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #99 on: Sun Sep 20, 2009 - 14:39:54 »

Offline zoonance

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Re: IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #100 on: Tue Sep 22, 2009 - 07:40:46 »
Well that's just your opinion and that doesn't count.



Quote from the previous post:  And yet I am certain that there is one poster who if you heaped ANTI instrument passages on him all day would say "well that's just your opinion" or "that doesn't count."


I guess they missed your cue.  I don't know who you had in mind but I obliged anyway.  ::lookaround::