Author Topic: IM in the churches of Christ  (Read 9907 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline winky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Female
IM in the churches of Christ
« on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:13:19 »
Other. Along the lines of what Bob said: \"There is no command regarding the specifics of music for those under the covenant of grace, other than it is to be from the heart.\"

As far as appropriateness - in some churches of Christ it may be an appropriate and uplifting way to worship. For many, however, it would cause more stumbling blocks than it would blessings.

My dad has said something to the effect that he believes that although IM is not a sin, it is not, in his opinion, the best or most appropriate way to worship, and that that's why it wasn't used in the NT. He says that it is not in keeping with the spiritual nature of worship, which is what the NT church was trying to do - make their worship more spiritual and less physical. Does anyone have thoughts on that? Charlie, feel free to tell me to start a new thread if you think this is too far off topic.  :D

Wendy

Offline Arkstfan

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
  • Manna: 93
  • Moderator
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:31:21 »
Vessel I agree with you though not as strongly.

I love the acapella tradition. I don't care to see a push to go instrumental in the churches of Christ, though I would shout with joy if we could just reach the point of accepting that it is a matter of preference rather than law whether we use them or not.

I'd be happy with telling the Disciples that we were wrong for condeming them for having an organ and sharing a nice brotherly hug.

Offline winky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Female
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 13:12:20 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Do you mind if I join you in naive optimism?[/quote]

Come on over! It's a pretty pleasant place to be, I must say! :)

Wendy

Offline kanham

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Manna: 208
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 14:47:11 »
Winky,

If I thought people were advocating both then I wouldn't have said a word.

I am sorry, that is not what I read. The denoms have no problem with acapella so someone must. They don’t mind us having our acapella ways but can the same be said for us? That was not how I read the thread.

I am always open for correction even when I don’t sound like it.

Thanks and God bless.

Offline Jim Abb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
  • Manna: 21
  • Gender: Male
  • Now where did I leave my pants?
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 22:10:18 »
From this mostly lurker, I think we are really getting to the core issue here....that is...what is worship? The entire basis of the discussion on IM in worship is based on the assumption that there is a \"formal\" worship. In my growth away from the \"old paths\" mentality (really the \"same old rut\" mentality) to a more grace focused mentality many ideas once accepted have been re-examined and found wanting. One of the first was IM. But that gave way to a deeper question regarding worship. My position now is that anything not sinful can be a part of worshiping our Lord. If pure religion involves service, then service is itself a form of worship. The roofer who donates his services to a struggling family is worshipping God as much as a Sunday morning song of praise (perhaps even better!).

Christian Forums and Message Board

IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 22:10:18 »



marc

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:12:24 »
meeting places--I see multiple examples of upper rooms.

times--Not sure about the start, but I see an approved example of meeting until midnight.

of course we would never say these examples were binding, only that they were expedient.  Yet we bind acapella singing based on a couple of verses that don't even deal with worship services, and which don't even mention acapella singing.

Just curious, could I get a chapter and verse reference to acapella singing in the New Testament?  I'm looking for a specific reference to acapella, not an assumption that this is what the scripture is talking about.

marc

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:10:00 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If in the Old Testament, scripture clarifies that one should sing and have instruments, why aren't the verses in the New Testament equally as clear? [/quote]

Is this the sentence you're asking why I'm not responding to?  This is the best argument against your position, not for it!  The New Testament contains no written books of law!  The OT lays out exactly what was acceptable and unacceptable in worship, showing that God indeed can write law when he needs to.  The New Testament does no such thing.  We are no longer under law but under grace (who said that?)  We have freedom in Christ!  We have a relationship to Him as sons and we now give him our whole lives, not just the works of our hands!  

btw, as to the extra-scriptural early church examples of acapella singing, I would suggest checking out the other recent threads on this topic.  There was a good discussion of this very thing.

Offline Trois

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1395
  • Manna: 12
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:21:54 »
Marc, Abs, et al...

Let's make sure this dialogue stays in the spirit of Christ and the spirit of seeking. Inorder to really give good answers we all have to first seek to understand what the other person is talking about.

I have no doubt that worship in the assembly of the NT church was acapella. I have only theories as to why they only sang. I have looked for IM music in NT worship. I haven't found any. Yet I am not willing to condemn those who don't see it as I see it. I see some holes in my own logic because I believe that worship in our Sunday assemblies need to remain as close to the original intent of the NT scripture as we can but I don't have any problem whatsoever with IM outside that context. I just hope that doesn't make me a hypocrite.

I still think this is a hermeneutical issue though. For example dgdodd listed several text from the OT and a couple from Revelation to say that IM is Biblical. Well if your hermeneutic says that the entire Bible (OT/NT) is our rule of faith then of course IM is acceptable. If on the other hand you believe that only the NT is our rule of faith then of course IM is unacceptable. My immediate challenge to that argumentation would be that you still don't find any positive evidence that God wanted IM in the worship assembly of the NT church. OT was OT and Revelation (depending on your interpretive view) was in heaven.

A challenge to the whole Bible hermeneutic could be then what about the fact that Jesus says the OT (incl. the Psalms) has been fulfilled in Him? Or how can you be consistent in saying that IM is acceptable if you don't include the other OT observances?

But there are also legitimite challenges to the other NT only Bible hermeneutic. Such as where do you get authority for your on extra-biblical activities? Such as were listed on several post. Things like song books, song leaders, pulpits, pews, communion cups, collection plates, church buildings, etc... etc... And how do we learn to worship w/out the deep heritage of the OT? Or why did God never say do your assembly just like this?

I believe we need to stick with our convictions on things the Bible clearly states and leave room for God's grace in those areas that get fuzzy. But let's keep conversing. Maybe if we keep searching together we can come to a better understanding of God's revelation. :noddingsmiley:

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:51:30 »
yikes :blush:
You're a yeller too, huh Arkstfan?
hmmm :wave:

Offline Arkstfan

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
  • Manna: 93
  • Moderator
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 12:56:51 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,10:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]yikes :blush:
You're a yeller too, huh Arkstfan?
hmmm :wave:[/quote]
That was a re-enactment of the moment it finally hit me.

I grew up with the condemnation and then one day challenged I found myself struggling to defend what I had been taught.

When I asked others for help in the task this picture of a \"sneaky God\" emerged who would punish us not only for those things clear prohibitted but would allow some dangers to be obscured in the text demanding that I strain and make inferences to see that it is a sin because it is against God, it just isn't spelled out like the other stuff.

After wondering why God would be sneaky and not give us a clearer statement it finally dawned on me. There was a reason God left us this record of his word it was so we would know what he wants and what displeases him. He wasn't being sneaky he just didn't address it because when I sing with joy and love for God it doesn't matter if someone strums a guitar or not and if it did he would have said so.

Offline kanham

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Manna: 208
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 15:05:02 »
We have a computer. My brother is a tech guy and he glued it together from three other systems. Our son loves the computer. I am constantly amazed at how quickly children pick up how to operate one.

He spends a lot of time playing games on the computer. We have only asked one thing from our son, that he turn the computer off when he is done.

I am often amazed at how he decides to turn it off. He has figured out that you can unplug the power strip from the wall, that will work. He has found that the power strip has a switch, that will work too. He also knows he can turn it off by reaching down and pushing the button on the front of the tower.

Should I be angry with him for not simply going to shut down on the computer?

Someone mention that this was not a discussion about IM, but attitudes around it, and I agree. To me it is a discussion about our heavenly Father and what kind of Father He is. It is a discussion on how we will allow God to be presented to our children, our neighbor and our friend.

I often wonder whose image we are made in if our Creator is the one that many paint him to be.

You may be thinking, why don’t you show your son the right way to turn the computer off. My answer would be, if it was that important, I would.

Offline charlie

  • Quoted on every stupid baptism thread
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
  • Manna: 95
  • Gender: Male
  • Here I come to save the day
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 07:49:16 »
This poll measures two things:
1. do you think the OT and NT readers of the bible understood the passages relating to IM understood some of them as a binding command or an allowance

2. modern application of those principles (and others) in the worship of the churches of Christ. Sorry, but I really only want CoC members to vote on this one. We can do a more inclusive poll later.

If you pick \"other\" state so in a post on the thread and explain.

Also, if you have any other ideas, put them in a post also.

For those to whom this is a moot point and consider this whole business to be a waste of time let me say I agree, but I acknowledge the definitive nature of this issue to our brotherhood. Just because it ought not be so doesn't mean it isn't so.

Offline charlie

  • Quoted on every stupid baptism thread
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
  • Manna: 95
  • Gender: Male
  • Here I come to save the day
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:15:53 »
For people who are so outspoken that this is a non-issue, you sure seem interested in this poll.

marc

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:29:50 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It is considered legalistic to refuse certain aspects of worship but is equally a legalism of the heart to demand that they be included. The love of Christ is concerned with the heart of your brothers over yourselves. As long as your brother's heart is closed to something as irrelevant as instruments, to force it on them is sinful. Not just to force the instruments themselves, but even the issue of IM on those who stumble by it.

[/quote]

While this is accurate as far as our relationships with our brothers and sisters inside the Churches of Christ goes, the opposite can be said for our relationships with our brothers and sisters outside the Big C Church of Christ.  Our refusal to use instrumental music becomes at times a judgment we make against them, and an obstacle that keeps us from fellowshiping them.  This is what makes this issue so difficult.

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 13:38:09 »
I didn't vote because I am not a part of the RM.  

However,

I wouldn't want to bind instruments on those that think they are wrong for I would be a stumbling block.

I also would not think it is right for someone to try to bind accapella on those who use instruments, for I would be a stumbling block.

It IS a preference.  A preference that can cause a lot of anger.

To say \"Wake up COC, join the 21st century would get people angry.\"  Just as it would to say \"You unity haters drop your instruments.\"

Offline kanham

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Manna: 208
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 14:39:23 »
Charlie,

Where does the attitude around IM come from?

I sat with a group of preachers and pastors from the area and we discussed IM. Most sing acapella at some point in a typical service. It isn’t an issue to them either way. It must come up on this board because it is an issue to someone.

A young man was baptized recently. He loves to play the drums and the guitar. Plays in a band. For some reason he just can’t seem to connect with the CoC service. He wants to play his music to bring glory to God but he is told this is something that is not appropriate. In this scenario who is the weaker brother we should be concerned with?

The typical response is if they really loved God they would give IM up. Then if it is not an issue of sin, if we love God, why can’t we give in? When the shoe is put on the other foot what is our answer?

Offline spurly

  • All glory to God and to Jesus the Son!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15743
  • Manna: 319
  • Gender: Male
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 20:53:21 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hey everyone,

This question is really a matter of theology and hermeneutics. If you hold silence to be prohibitive in matters of the assembly then there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you hold silence to mean there are allowances in matters of the assembly then you can use instruments in NT worship.

If you believe in a hardline CENI type hermeneutic for the practice of the \"church\" there is no way you can use instruments in NT worship. If you have a more loose hermeneutic (not meaning to be perjoritive) you will say that it's allowable because the scriptures don't say \"don't do it.\"

Well, who's right? I know why I sing acapella. I know also why I think it's allowable for me to enjoy gospel music that's not acapella. My question is for those who think it's alright to have it in worship is, \"Do you think that the worship assembly is commanded by God and must the activities during this time have a scriptural authorization? Or is Sunday worship just a convenient time to fellowship with other believers and share the love of Christ?\"

I'm not meaning to be sarcastic at all. I just think that if we can answer this question we could come to a better understanding on the whole IM dilemma. :saint:  :noddingsmiley:[/quote]
Are we commanded to worship God?  Yes.  Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!

However, I think the main problem with this issue is when people try to squeeze all worship for the week into the one or two hours when we get together as a group.  That's not what worship is.  That is part of worship, but it is not all of what worship is.

Worship is giving our lives to God - every aspect of our lives.  Laying our entire life on the altar for him to use and saying - \"Here I am.  Use Me.\"

If we go to the argument that things not spoken about in Scripture are not allowed we have to take hymnbooks, the NT canon, buildings, pews, carpet, air conditioning, heating, pulpits, communion trays, offering plates, bulletins, computers, suits and ties, dresses, hymns written in the 1700's, responsive readings, sound systems, and many more things away from our worship service that we just take for granted.

No.  Silence does not mean we are not supposed to do it.  Even the advocates of that position pick and choose which issues the Bible is silent about that they want to bind on others.

Kevin

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #17 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:29:10 »
The word acappella did not exist at that time.

Singing meant singing. Not singing while dancing or singing while roofing or singing while doing squats or singing while sewing or singing while drumming or singing while cooking or singing while typing, etc. Singing is singing.

If in the Old Testament, scripture clarifies that one should sing and have instruments, why aren't the verses in the New Testament equally as clear? It's not about liberty to add where God has not spoken. It's about slavery and servanthood to the \"conduct\" of the apostles.

The doctrines of the apostles we are called to follow don't include IM, not historically or Biblically to any level of conclusiveness.

Acappella is a term that was applied to the early church, because the historians that applied the term knew the Christians to be \"without instrumental accompanyment\".
That was their tradition, \"followed\" via the \"doctrines\" and \"examples\" of the apostles, inspired via the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't require assumption because we have the \"example\". That example is the knowledge that the Christians didn't have IM.
 :music:  :)

Offline winky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Female
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #18 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:09:20 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, the parts we are given - we ought to stick to; like singing and praying and meeting to break bread.[/quote]

I feel safe in saying that no one here has said anything about giving up singing, praying or breaking bread together. I am confident that everyone here advocates all three of those activities.

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #19 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:21:54 »
Where is yours, marc? Where's the one that says we don't have to follow the conduct and doctrines of the apostles? We have no, I mean zero, Biblical refrences of a NT church using instruments. They were following the same examples that we are to follow.
Oh yeah, I wasn't talking to you. ;) oops!

:wave: And Kevin if you are suggesting that it was somehow a failure of the apostles to not include IM by pointing out their other shortcomings, I'm afraid that still doesn't negate all those scriptures I listed - (in context.) *wink* ;)

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #20 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:49:47 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]but is clearly approved by God--the same God we serve--in the Old Testament.
[/quote]
A God who also approved of the merciless[/us] slaughter of thousands of unbelievers, men who loved their families, women who enjoyed the sunlight and their children with rapture, babies who squirmed and giggled and Jews ran them through.
God's OT approval simply doesn't suffice for what we do today.

Oh, and there's no condemnation going on from me, marc. My points are valid and I'm doing the best I can to present them in a light hearted, loving manner.
Wendy, good question. Actually I only listen to a cappella music myself. There are some fantastic CD's out there without any instruments at all. It's so much more spiritual and timeless. It's not about disaproval to me, there are just so many strong arguments against IM in a NT church. I love my Christian brothers who use instruments. And yes they are certainly Christians to me. The main defense of IM though, is \"hey, the Jews did it, why not me\" or \"the NT doesn't say don't do it, so I can add to the Word if I want to\"
Those aren't scriptural reasons as far as I can tell.

And thanks for your comments on my participation. If I'm ever going to work out why IM is done at all, I've got to discuss it with those that are passionate about adding it to Christianity. Heck, if I was ever going to change I'd have to get all these arguments out and discussed, not holding them in, to do an about face, righ?! *wink*
 :hug:  I appreciate you winky!

And I think Trois made some fantastic points too. I hope all my comments don't push his post off the page.

I only brought up those verses in reference to Kevin's statements on liberty. Yes we have liberty, but it is not without boundaries. Otherwise, why follow the apostle's doctrines at all?

Anyway, this was fun. Perhaps I'll come back to this page someday and mingle with you \"gang-uppers\" again ;)  :wave:
Later!

marc

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #21 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 13:01:48 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I grew up with the condemnation and then one day challenged I found myself struggling to defend what I had been taught.

When I asked others for help in the task this picture of a \"sneaky God\" emerged who would punish us not only for those things clear prohibitted but would allow some dangers to be obscured in the text demanding that I strain and make inferences to see that it is a sin because it is against God, it just isn't spelled out like the other stuff.

After wondering why God would be sneaky and not give us a clearer statement it finally dawned on me. There was a reason God left us this record of his word it was so we would know what he wants and what displeases him. He wasn't being sneaky he just didn't address it because when I sing with joy and love for God it doesn't matter if someone strums a guitar or not and if it did he would have said so.

[/quote] :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :thumbs-up:

Offline Barb1957

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 488
  • Manna: 0
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #22 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 15:45:32 »
Great illustration, kanham!  :thumbup:

Offline Jesus4you

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
  • Manna: 0
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 07:55:48 »
There is one sister here who  I do give credit to(  Amen for her consistancy???????????????????).  She leaves instruments out of Bible songs in all aspects of life and worship not just the corporate assembly, which is where most of the  binding acappellians seem to confine their acappella  convictions . :alien:


BTW,
I didn't see this one or I might have picked it, because it raises such a ruckess in our brotherhood.
Commanded, now allowed, but inappropriate

Offline charlie

  • Quoted on every stupid baptism thread
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
  • Manna: 95
  • Gender: Male
  • Here I come to save the day
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:29:04 »
I'm afraid I didn't explain the poll very well. Let me try again.

Instrumental Music (IM) is found in scripture. That should be very important to people who try to live by scripture. There are some passages that could be interpreted as commands, or as allowances. Also, if they are commands they might be interpreted as binding on us today or not. In this poll, you have the opportunity to state whether you believe the passages mentioning IM were ever intended to be interpreted as commands to be obeyed (I'm not talking about the horns at Jericho, I'm talking about IM in corporate worship of God), or if they were allowed and sanctioned by God, if not commanded. You also have the opportunity to express whether having IM in a church of Christ would be appropriate or inappropriate, in your view. Perhaps I should have added one for \"not inappropriate\" or \"doesn't matter\" to each of the categories of \"commanded\" or \"allowed\".

Notice also that there is no choice to put \"forbidden in scripture\" for obvious reasons. I wish some of you had asked for clarification first.

Offline charlie

  • Quoted on every stupid baptism thread
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
  • Manna: 95
  • Gender: Male
  • Here I come to save the day
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:37:22 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]your poll results will not be valid because you did not include a 'forbidden or unauthorized' option.  if you ask church of Christ membership specifically to participate it would be better to include what you know will be selected by many in general.
[/quote]
dj,

Actually I thought of that. I based the choices on the assumption that people know that IM is not forbidden anywhere in scripture. Also, you will see that \"not allowed\" is a choice. That would mean the same as \"forbidden\". As to \"unauthorized\" you've got me there. Hopefully we will remember that \"authorized\" means \"commanded or allowed, and appropriate\".

Offline Jesus4you

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
  • Manna: 0
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:28:47 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]singing acappella music.

The stumbling of an IM congregation comes when someone tells them to do away with their instruments. It's about holding on to what you have, demanding you're right to have them, and not letting someone else tell you what to do. Those aren't humble, loving reasons for having IM.

If they have a stumbling block it is when they are then angry and hateful at being told what to do (or not to do rather); they can even go so far as being selfish in their desire to keep what they have. That is their stumbling block. The stumbling block is not the lack of instruments itself. It is the means of getting there.[/quote]
Vessel of Honor,

To an extent I agree with you. But I have to think of this scripture also.

1 Corinthians  10:29 \"For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?  If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?\"


  The problem I have and that I think many others here have is that many  in the acapella Church make it a Salvation Issue.  


Blessings,
Lauren

Offline segell

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Manna: 283
  • Gender: Male
  • segell
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 15:07:07 »
Charlie - To me it is a non-issue.  I was suggesting it as a category.  

To answer your question, where I worship, we see no Scriptural significance.  However, I realize many do see significance (up to the silly point - in my view - of making it a matter of unity).  What would a non-believer or seeker of God think when such an issue becomes a matter of division?  

Oh, and by the way, even though we have a contemporary worship service with intrumentation, we actually do have times when we sing w'out accompaniment.  Both are wonderful.

Steve

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:29:58 »
So should we follow that example or not? ???

Offline dgdodd

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Female
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:07:45 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 28 2003,11:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, the God I follow created music.[/quote]
:clap:  AMEN, AMEN and AMEN
 (oh, is a women allowed to say amen in mixed company?)   ;)

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:13:22 »
wow :doh:
I am definitely through discussing this with you marc. Smarty! Yelling at folks and making fun of their legs. What if I'm sitting in a wheelchair!?:)


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It seems to me that the apostles would be following the teachings   of (what we call) the Old Testament.  Here are just a few:[/quote]
It's certainly an interesting idea that the apostles were following the Old Testament teachings. Though most of the time they would have worshipped together in synagogues without music, or so I've heard.
But then I'm forced to wonder: if the examples and doctrines that were given to the churches I referenced, in that list marc doesn't like, included the practices of the OT - like the ones you noted here - why didn't they follow those examples?
 ???
If they were taught to act like Samuel, Chronicles, Psalms, etc. told them to... well, why didn't they? Not that they were infallible, but surely at least one of those first congregations would have used IM if it was in the examples they were to follow. Do ya \"follow\"? ;)

As for Revelation, it is a book of symbols. May sound like a cop out to some of you, but it's fact. There is a lot about heaven that we don't imitate here, and I personally don't believe it to be a physical realm anyway, making physical instruments hard to believe in there. My opinion, I guess.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, the God I follow created music.[/quote]
No sarcasm intended, but He also created guns and atom bombs and gas chambers and immodest clothing and satan - and I won't be adding any of these to my repetoire.  :lookaround:

Offline Arkstfan

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3308
  • Manna: 93
  • Moderator
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #31 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:29:49 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Jan. 28 2003,09:56)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Should we follow the example of the apostles?

If so then we should argue and bicker over who gets to go on a missions trip.

We should withdraw fellowship from people who are not circumcised, following Peter's example.

We should sin, because the apostles did.

Nope, the apostle were not perfect.  I choose to follow God and his son Jesus Christ.

By the way, the God I follow created music.

Kevin[/quote]
We should go to trusted men of God for their advice and ignore it just as Paul did when the Jerusalem Council said don't eat sacrificed meat.

Offline winky

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Manna: 7
  • Gender: Female
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #32 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 13:22:41 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]those that are passionate about adding it to Christianity[/quote]

just to clarify, the impression I get from people on this board is not a sweeping demand to add instruments to churches that currently don't have them, but rather a plea for acceptance for those who choose to use them.

I'm glad to know that, from what Abs said in that last post, that he/she is not condemning those who do use instruments, so we're just basically debating whether or not it is appropriate or wise to use instruments.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Sure all of life is worship. But saying that doesn't negate the fact that there can also be special activities which happen at special times. For example, I don't take communion at work. Yet it's authorized as worship to God.

Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live [:D] ! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. [/quote]

It's not that every, single, little thing we do in life is worship. It's that worship isn't confined to the assembly, that's all.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. [/quote]

Good point. A lot of people I know and love who are not at all legalistic see this as a valid consideration.

marc

  • Guest
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:58:45 »
Finally figured out that I was being accused of yelling for posting a two-letter word in all caps.  This was a typo. Because of the context it did appear to be deliberate, and all I can offer are my assurances that it was not.  I frequently use italics for this very reason--I know many people are offended by caps.

Personally, I find these discussions are helped when a question that is asked is addressed directly. Then offenses can be explained. I apologize for the offense.

Offline charlie

  • Quoted on every stupid baptism thread
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
  • Manna: 95
  • Gender: Male
  • Here I come to save the day
IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #34 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:09:14 »
okay, everybody add one to the third choice when you look at it.