Author Topic: IM in the churches of Christ  (Read 9905 times)

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 10:22:59 »
I would say \"no\" to the actual post: \"IM in the churches of Christ, is it for us today?\"

There is no doubt that it's a point of division in the brethren; and points of division are best done away with for the cause of unity and Christianity.

It's just not worth it, to fight for having instrumental music when it causes hate. It's a stumbling block because the attitudes are wrong (not necessarily the instruments themselves), the hate is wrong and it is Christ like to remove that stumbling block and free your brethren from their struggles.

It is considered legalistic to refuse certain aspects of worship but is equally a legalism of the heart to demand that they be included. The love of Christ is concerned with the heart of your brothers over yourselves. As long as your brother's heart is closed to something as irrelevant as instruments, to force it on them is sinful. Not just to force the instruments themselves, but even the issue of IM on those who stumble by it.

If your brother runs the race and you throw a log in front of his feet by adding something to worship that may OR may not be Biblically acceptable, he will trip! Such issues are sinful in their divisiveness.

And truly there is no reason to have instruments, my friends. Christians may sing to God with all their heart and passion and spirit and mind and strength whether IM is playing or not! The point is that we should all be one in mind in order to truly affect this world. We cannot be divided in the churches of Christ (little c) and expect to stand. And a quest for unity would suggest that we wholeheartedly remove those issues of division from our practices.

And truly IM is one of those issues.

I agree wholehearted with wendy that the most appropriate way to worship is more concerned with spirit than the abilities of the flesh. All things are permissible, but not all are edifying, not all things are beneficial. IM is neither beneficial nor harmful inherently. But the strain and pain and poor image it makes of Christ IS harmful by it's divisiveness. And that harm should simply be laid to rest in humility and love.

Offline charlie

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:32:49 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Charlie, are you upset with us b/c we didn't answer exactly what you meant for us to answer? You seem a little irrritated [/quote]
You're right, Wendy. I did seem irritated. I'm sorry.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How am I doing, Charlie? Is it any better? [/quote]
You're doing fine. Based on you comments, I would have selected commanded, but inappropriate. Since you said IM was neither commanded nor condemned in the NT, and it was commanded in the OT, that would mean it was commanded in scripture. In this poll, I was treating the bible as a whole.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why is it acceptable for IM to destroy unity with other brothers because it will hurt our unity with our sectarian brothers?[/quote]
Kanham,
What is the source of the destruction of unity? Is it the questionable practice or the attitudes surrounding it? Talking about IM as being divisive is like punching someone in the face and then accusing them of hurting your fist. Still, you make a valid point that goes to the appropriateness or inappropriateness of IM in the churches of Christ.

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« Reply #37 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:57:56 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.[/quote]

I, for one, do not propose that instrumental music is a sin.
The attitudes surrounding the issue are the sin. I am trying to measure one against the other.

*     IM congregations have no problem singing an acappella song.
*     Non-IM congregation do have a problem singing with instruments there.

Everyone finds acappella acceptable. Therefore that is the reasonable direction to lean if everyone truly seeks unity.

If a man tries to take your overcoat, give to him your shirt as well. Don't try to hold on to it just because the majority of people wear shirts. At least that seems like a fair parallel.

My preference is for everything to be considered permissible by everyone. That is simply asking too much, as far as i can see in the brothers I interact with, because everything permissible will never always be beneficial. Approached objectively and humbly, is IM truly more beneficial than harmful?

Alos may i point out that most people are singing only. There may be an instrument in the room, but most people do not have an instrument. IM, taken to its full extent, would see an instrument in everyone's hands. Which makes me wonder - if everyone had a trumpet to their lips, would that fulfill the type of worship the apostles suggested for us - singing?

We all change the church one at a time, starting with us. And love is the only answer. If a person who finds IM to be questionable acts through love, and accepts the brother who make use of instruments, that is wonderful! And if one who uses IM acts through love and removes the organ for the sake of Christ and his brethren, that too is wonderful!

So what would the result of mutual love be? The churches of Christians would not use instruments, and also would have the attitude that if someone did they are still brothers (or sisters) in Christ.

I'm curious too Kevin, my friend. I appreciate your words very much. May I humbly ask if the opinions of the majority makes for \"rightness\" in the sight of Christ?

I also wonder of everyone: If there were animals sacrificed to Baal, or Allah, or to Saint Anthony; And all this meat was mailed to the doorsteps of our churches with their history included; Would we truly, i mean truly in a convicted way, would we truly be comfortable having a pot luck feast of meat sacrificed to altars and idols of other Gods?

Maybe the Bible teaches that it's permissible, but by faith in my God Jehovah, I personally would abstain from anything associated with this worship of false gods. It would not be beneficial to my Christian growth or search for a more complete way/church. How about you all, truthfully?

I wouldn't tell others that they couldn't eat it, by my love for them. And they wouldn't eat it themselves, by their love me.
Perhaps that result is applicable here to IM.

*!   And, right on Lauren! Making IM a salvation issue is simply foolish in my humble opinion. One's freedom is not to be judged by another's conscience. One can do anything one wants. A Christians \"do-ings\" are governed by love. Loving my brother (as applies to BOTH sides of this issue) means that we find a way to unity. That's all i seek.

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« Reply #38 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 15:07:05 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (david johnson @ Jan. 27 2003,2:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]kevin:

there are NOT many more im-ers than there are a cappellaists

dj[/quote]
I would think Kevin is right, re: more churchs use IM.  I believe all Methodist churchs use IM.   This is not scientific, but just randomly visting Christian churchs, I think you would find far more with instrumental music than not.   Doesn't IM mean \"instrumental music\"?  
Do people want all Methodist churchs to go acapella for unity sake?   Why do you need that for unity sake?   We must be \"exactly\" alike to have unity?...why?   We'll never reach unity if that's the standard for it.
I'm completely confounded with this discussion.   Funny made the statement (over on abortion)...re: why can't the focus be on bringing people to Christ?  I don't mean to offend...really, I don't....but I don't get why this discussion?   Can anyone explain why it has monumental importance?  
Really confused Shorty

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« Reply #39 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:34:37 »
The word may not have existed at the time, but neither did most of the other words in the Bible--it was written in a different language.  The Concept existed.  And the phrase singing without instruments surely existed.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Singing meant singing. Not singing while dancing or singing while roofing or singing while doing squats or singing while sewing or singing while drumming or singing while cooking or singing while typing, etc. Singing is singing.[/quote]

Why?  I've heard people sing with instrument; does this mean they weren't \"singing\"?  

I'm still looking for the scripture reference.  I don't see a single one in your reply.  Show me the example and explain why it is different than the examples I've listed above that we don't follow.

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IM in the churches of Christ
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:34:37 »



Offline winky

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« Reply #40 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:05:59 »
Should we follow the example of the apostles?

Abs, do you greet your fellow Christians with a holy kiss? Not only an example of this, but a command! And if the command to sing rules out all other forms of music, then this holy kiss command should rule out other forms of greeting. None of this hand shaking or hugs business.

Do you meet each week in someone's home for worship? That's the approved example of what the apostles did, isn't it? Wouldn't meeting in a building go against this example?

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« Reply #41 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:15:18 »
Not sure where I yelled, but I'm still looking for that example from scripture.

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« Reply #42 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:29:50 »
Christian living is worship.
Do you suggest that we only obey the apostles' examples in certain areas, not all areas? That they refer only to those exact occurances with no wider application!?
 ???

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« Reply #43 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:52:37 »
We need to think our line of thought through just a little. Sure all of life is worship. But saying that doesn't negate the fact that there can also be special activities which happen at special times. For example, I don't take communion at work. Yet it's authorized as worship to God.

Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live :D! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. I'm not being definitive here, I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. :idea:

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« Reply #44 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 13:52:03 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live ! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. I'm not being definitive here, I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. [/quote] :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :thumbs-up:  :clap:  :clap:

Offline Apollos

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« Reply #45 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 18:28:49 »
abs,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The main defense of IM though, is \"hey, the Jews did it, why not me\" or \"the NT doesn't say don't do it, so I can add to the Word if I want to\"
Those aren't scriptural reasons as far as I can tell. [/quote]

I would not want to waste space copying and pasting from another thread. If you have time, please turn to page three and look up 'New IM Topic'. The main defense is not just that the Jews did it, but that the word 'psallo' allows it.

Another comment. If harps in Revelation is merely symbolic, I wonder why God chose such a symbol if worshipping God with musical instruments is a sin.

Offline segell

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« Reply #46 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:13:39 »
Charlie

I voted \"other\".  How about:  Not an Issue?

Steve

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #47 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:31:07 »
charlie:

your poll results will not be valid because you did not include a 'forbidden or unauthorized' option.  if you ask church of Christ membership specifically to participate it would be better to include what you know will be selected by many in general.
i state that availbale arguments for both pro and con positions are weak and the use is 'unauthorized'.  whether or not authorization is a requirement is a different issue, though.

dj

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« Reply #48 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:04:34 »
So if someone asks, \"hey, how come you guys don't have instruments? There's nothing against it in the NT, and they used them in the OT,\" and we come back with, \"well, the NT chuch didn't use them, and besides, many in our number would have a problem with it,\" I ask you this: whose authority are we going by? The NT church? The people with the problems?

Another question: if everybody in your congregation realizes that there's nothing wrong with IM, then is there anything wrong with having IM in your congregation? That may seem a silly question, but think about it.

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« Reply #49 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 16:44:30 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (david johnson @ Jan. 27 2003,2:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Things that make you go hummm:

Why is it always people who use intruments who are dividing the body of Christ, instead of people who choose not to use them.  It seems like many more Christians have come to the conclusion that instrumental music is not a sin.  It seems to me the ones causing division are the ones who are trying to force the majority who worship with instruments to toss them away.

Just a thought,

Kevin[/quote]
kevin:

there are NOT many more im-ers than there are a cappellaists

dj[/quote]
David,

The only Christians I know of who choose not to use any instruments at any time are in the \"Church of Christ\" denomination.

If there are others, please correct me.  

However, the rest of Christendom (Catholic, Methodist, Christian Church, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian, etc.) see no problem with allowing instruments to enhance our worship of the God who created music.

When compared to Christendom as a whole, the \"Church of Christ\" denomination is very small.

So yes, David, there are many more people in Christendom who choose to use IM than those who choose to throw it out.

Couldn't let that slip by.

Kevin

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« Reply #50 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 01:12:17 »
I am surprise I have not voiced this on here already, but you cannot argue the stumbling block reference here, because all those who would suggest that IM is sin will not use it and would condemn those who do.  The issue of a stumbling block is that they will participate in an act that will make them think less of God and lose their faith.  Eating meat in Romans was about Christians who would then just add God to their pantheon of gods that they worshipped and never really commit their lives to him.  No, IM is not a stumbling block.

We are going to discuss this issue (the elders & me and wives).  Should be interesting, then we will have other discussions that are more congregational.  Even more interesting.

Among the different groups that sing acapella are the Brethen.  They use instruments in their gospel service, but in the Communion service they sing acapella and their meeting is a bit more towards what James described for the house group he meets with.  

Eric

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« Reply #51 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:38:05 »
btw, I know of some people who do a wonderful job of worhsipping God by singing while roofing. :D

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« Reply #52 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:56:20 »
Should we follow the example of the apostles?

If so then we should argue and bicker over who gets to go on a missions trip.

We should withdraw fellowship from people who are not circumcised, following Peter's example.

We should sin, because the apostles did.

Nope, the apostle were not perfect.  I choose to follow God and his son Jesus Christ.

By the way, the God I follow created music.

Kevin

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« Reply #53 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:28:03 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,09:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Singing meant singing. Not singing while dancing or singing while roofing or singing while doing squats or singing while sewing or singing while drumming or singing while cooking or singing while typing, etc. Singing is singing.[/quote]
So Frank Sinatra didn't sing because he was accompanied?

Fred Astaire didn't sing because he danced as he sang?

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« Reply #54 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:35:06 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,11:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian living is worship.
Do you suggest that we only obey the apostles' examples in certain areas, not all areas? That they refer only to those exact occurances with no wider application!?
 ???[/quote]
abs,

I think it is understood in this conversation that we are talking about the corporate worship assembly.

I do agree that all of our life should be in worship to God, but in the context of this conversation, it is corporate.

Also, I would like to say that I ditto Wendy's comment on your thoughts - I appreciate your debate method in keeping in the Spirit of Christ.  

Brandt

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« Reply #55 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 12:04:59 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]We need to think our line of thought through just a little. Sure all of life is worship. But saying that doesn't negate the fact that there can also be special activities which happen at special times. For example, I don't take communion at work. Yet it's authorized as worship to God.

Let's not treat each other like \"suckas'\". IM in the OT was used at specific times for specific purposes. I mean I would never walk into my bedroom and use a trumpet to awaken my wife! At least not if I wanted to live ! So let's get off this \"worship is life\" mantra to say that IM in worship is acceptable. I'm not being definitive here, I'm just saying that people aren't stupid or unenlitened or legalists because they see this issue as a valid consideration. [/quote]

I agree that there is a difference between corporate worship and our everyday lives.  If my questions had ever been responded to, this is likely the turn my discussion with abs would have taken.  The question then becomes whether God left us specific instructions for our method of singing as part of corporate worship.  And if not, how do we define what type of singing is acceptable and what type is not?

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #56 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 14:03:50 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Jan. 28 2003,12:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm glad to know that, from what Abs said in that last post, that he/she is not condemning those who do use instruments, so we're just basically debating whether or not it is appropriate or wise to use instruments.[/quote]
But once it becomes a question of appropriate or wise doesn't that shift the issue to the congregation to determine their practice?

Once that shift has taken place then we leave them to their devices if there is congregational autonomy.

Offline charlie

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« Reply #57 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:54:15 »
Steve,

Okay, so it's not an issue. But surely there is some reason in your mind as to why you have or don't have IM in your worship.

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« Reply #58 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:21:46 »
Kanham,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why is it acceptable for IM to destroy unity with other brothers because it will hurt our unity with our sectarian brothers? [/quote]

I may be naively optimistic, but can we not have both? I think that's what people are advocating here (vessel, Arkst, etc.) Not using instruments if it will create stumbling blocks for some within your church, but not condemning those at other churches (or other denominations) who do use it, in the interest of unity with them.

Wendy

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« Reply #59 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 12:15:14 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Jan. 27 2003,10:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I may be naively optimistic, but can we not have both? I think that's what people are advocating here (vessel, Arkst, etc.) Not using instruments if it will create stumbling blocks for some within your church, but not condemning those at other churches (or other denominations) who do use it, in the interest of unity with them.

Wendy[/quote]
Do you mind if I join you in naive optimism?

I don't want our brothers to dump IM to fit what I'm comfortable with and I don't want to add it where it isn't present if it will create problems. Though I must add that my comfort level has grown quite a bit since we now do have some mid-week services with instruments (like Woodmont does) but I'm not ready for Sunday morning services to be instrumental, besides it would defeat one of the purpose in planting this congregation which was to be a grace-centered contemporary congregation that would be a comfortable home for people who grew up in the churches of Christ.

Offline segell

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« Reply #60 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 15:15:38 »
Charlie -

I have to apologize (just backread the thread).  I did misunderstand the poll.  Sorry about that.

Steve

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« Reply #61 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 09:24:10 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Did God set up an \"approved pattern\" for worship and pass it on to us through the apostles, or did he give us lots of liberty?  Lots of liberty!
[/quote]
vs.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.


2 Thessalonians 3:7
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

3 John 1:9
I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.
(this is a negative thing)


1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the and doctrine which you have been following.

2 Timothy 3:10
Now you followed my teaching, conductpurpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
conduct is example in other translations


2 Thessalonians 3:14
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

2 Thessalonians 3:9
not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

2 Thessalonians 3:4
We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.

Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, \"We must obey God rather than men.

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

liberty? does that mean freedom from the pattern, command, example, conduct, tradition, purpose, doctrine, and obedience of the apostles/ Holy Spirit?
(please accept this list not as an attack, but for the sake of learned discussion)
if one lives \"according to the traditions received from [the apostles]\", can one do things outside that tradition and still be living according to that tradition?
if we \"continue to do what [the Holy Spirit] commands\" was using IM one of those commands?
how much do these verses apply to what we ought to be doing together?
 ???  :D

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« Reply #62 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:48:22 »
Interesting. I haven't seen a scriptural reply from you yet either.
What exactly do you do with the list of scriptures i posted here?

Do you ignore them? Give me scripture that shows we don't have to obey the exmple of the apostles. Then I'll give you verses that say \"singing without music\".

You cannot, therefore I will not. You know them anyway, you could only want them listed to pick them apart. Those I listed, however, are awful hard to pick apart I imagine.

You give me verses for your stance, now.

At least give me verses as why the scriptures I listed for you don't apply to you, before you demand more verses from me! ;) sheesh!

You quoted me and commented on \"singing with...\", but did you not read the following sentence in my post?

The burden must be on those who seek to add to the doctrines of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately in this case that person seems to be you. No offense to you at all, but the conduct of the apostles is not wisely disregarded.

 :priest:

marc

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« Reply #63 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 10:55:55 »
abs:  Checked the scriptures you posted again.  NO reference to music of any kind.  Please tell me which scripture is  relevant, because, frankly I can't find it.  I see a bunch of out-of-context verses about following examples, but not a word giving an example of the kind of music we are to use in worship.

If you have a leg to stand on, please roll up your pant leg and show it.

Offline winky

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« Reply #64 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:28:11 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Let's make sure this dialogue stays in the spirit of Christ and the spirit of seeking. Inorder to really give good answers we all have to first seek to understand what the other person is talking about.[/quote]

I agree. Abs, I hope you don't feel like everyone is ganging up on you. A lot of people here feel strongly about the issue(s), as you can probably tell. I, for one, appreciate your thoughts and your spirit of discussion. It's good for us to have different viewpoints to discuss here. That's the whole point. Anyway, thanks for participating and for not getting bent out of shape or attacking people personally, as we've all seen happen before!

OK, back to the topic.

Wendy

Offline winky

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« Reply #65 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 11:33:24 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christian living is worship.[/quote]

Exactly! So, why do some people set up this whole set of strict rules for the \"worship\" assembly that don't apply to the rest of Christian living? (I'm assuming here that you don't disapprove of instrument playing altogether, just instrument playing in worship.)

Offline charlie

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« Reply #66 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 12:03:37 »
Let's step back a minute and ask ourselves why the early church didn't use IM. History shows that IM was used in temple settings (which the early church was part of for a little while, but only the Jewish Christians who worshipped in the temple) and in pagan settings (theaters, and pagan religious rituals). Can you not see how, to the early church, IM carried the stigma of either the old way of Jewish life (having to worship God in the temple, which Jesus said they would be getting away from) or the old pagan ways. Either way, IM may have represented an unsanctified life outside of Christ just the same way as eating blood or meat sacrificed to idols.
In the progress of time, however, the entire Christian community matured to the point that IM did not carry that stigma. By that time, however, there was another reason not to use IM: tradition. Over an even longer time, innovation overwhelmed tradition and IM was slowly introduced. But that was so far removed from the days of the temple (Jewish or pagan) that there was absolutely no idolatrous connotation whatsoever. It was simply an effort to bring another of the talents that God gave to man into the worship setting, and to restore a form of worship that God had asked for through David and Moses.

Of course there were objections. They were tampering with their long a capella tradition and arguably ruining the sweet sound of the pretty singing. But eventually, IM prevailed having not been opposed by a single scriptural argument.

Until the Restoration Movement. Early on, there were the usual objections to noisy, out-of-tune instruments overwhelming the sweet tones of the human voice. But a few generations later, these objections started being laced with scripture references that were supposed to bring God's opinion to bear on the matter. Before long, it became right in God's sight to only sing, and soon after, it became sinful to use instruments.

At least in the opinion of some. The RM congregations were well divided over the issue, but content to have fellowship regardless of the presence or absense of IM. A few (very few) preachers started making some real noise, however, and convinced (or frightened) others to their viewpoint, and by the beginning of the 20th Century (yes it happened that late) non-IM churches were no longer allowed to have fellowship with IM churches. A generation later, virtually every member forgot it was ever any other way, and your mainstream CoC members were taught to look over the breadth of history at the apostate \"believers\" who couldn't see the plain teaching of Eph 5:19 and Col. 3:16 and bemoan their false teaching and their foolish and damnable thinking.

Amazing, isn't it, how much louder 100 year-old objections sound than 3000 year-old scriptures?

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« Reply #67 on: Tue Jan 28, 2003 - 14:07:20 »
Having read the recent posts here I'm curious -if that was the case, then why were the early churches held accountable to the leadership of the apostles? Was their autonomy secondary?

Offline Bob Williams

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« Reply #68 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 08:57:39 »
I voted other; I didn’t see a designation that seemed to say what I believe.  IM was commanded in certain circumstances under the old covenant of law.  There is no command regarding the specifics of music for those under the covenant of grace (see my comments on Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 on other IM topic), other than it is to be from the heart.

Bob Williams ~ [A HREF=\"http://www.biblelessons.com/origins.html\"]

Offline winky

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« Reply #69 on: Mon Jan 27, 2003 - 11:17:21 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] I wish some of you had asked for clarification first.[/quote]

:help: Charlie, are you upset with us b/c we didn't answer exactly what you meant for us to answer? You seem a little irrritated (this may be a problem with seeing words but not the nonverbal part of what you're saying). I don't feel like I (or most of the others) missed your point completely, we may have gone off topic a bit or not stated it in exactly the terms you used. But it wasn't an intentional insult or anything, just a misunderstanding! I'll try again!

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Instrumental Music (IM) is found in scripture. That should be very important to people who try to live by scripture. There are some passages that could be interpreted as commands, or as allowances. Also, if they are commands they might be interpreted as binding on us today or not. In this poll, you have the opportunity to state whether you believe the passages mentioning IM were ever intended to be interpreted as commands to be obeyed (I'm not talking about the horns at Jericho, I'm talking about IM in corporate worship of God), or if they were allowed and sanctioned by God, if not commanded. [/quote]

My understanding is that IM was commanded in the OT. In the NT, I believe it was neither commanded nor condemned. So, that's what I was focusing on in my first post - the NT grace covenant (where we are not given a specific, detailed commands about how to worship), rather than the law covenant of the OT (where worship was spelled out and dictated specifically). I guess that means my answer is \"OT - commanded; NT - allowed\" if choosing from among your options.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You also have the opportunity to express whether having IM in a church of Christ would be appropriate or inappropriate, in your view.[/quote]

I can't really make a blanket statement here for all churches of Christ. In some cases, I think it might be appropriate. I imagine that in the majority of cases, it would not be, but I can't say it is inappropriate for ALL churches of Christ.

How am I doing, Charlie? Is it any better? :p