Author Topic: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?  (Read 328 times)

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Offline Hobie

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I was posting on the nature of Christ when I was challenged by a member in that forum with the following post....

 "Here's a historic Church statement on Christ. Notice, he is one divine person with two natures. One human and the other divine. We often mistake saying he is fully man and fully God but this assigns to him, two persons instead of one.

 THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON

 The Symbol of Chalcedon, adopted at the fourth and fifth sessions of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, dates back to 451 A.D.. Philip Schaff, in his Creeds of Christendom, writes of the Symbol (or Creed) of Chalcedon, “While the first Council of Nicaea had established the eternal, pre-existent Godhead of Christ, the Symbol of the Fourth Ecumenical Council relates to the incarnate Logos, as he walked upon earth and sits on the right hand of the Father. It is directed against the errors of Nestorius and Eutyches, who agreed with the Nicene Creed as opposed to Arianism, but put the Godhead of Christ in a false relation to his humanity.”3

 We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

 Historic Creeds and Confessions. (1997). (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Lexham Press......

 Fully human is a different Christ not supported by scripture. It means Christ was multiple personalities = two people in one body = crazy. The creeds nailed it and any departure from them makes you a heretic according to the whole Church....

 = two persons = Nestorianism = heresy. "


 I've never come across anyone objecting to Christ as fully God and fully man. How would you answer the poster or his contention?
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 15, 2020 - 07:36:31 by Hobie »

Offline Amo

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Re: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
« Reply #1 on: Sat Aug 15, 2020 - 10:39:46 »
Stick to the scriptures. Don't presume anything they do not reveal, and do not deny anything they do. Mary is not the mother of God, according to the creed you quoted. It is not possible to be the mother of the self existing one, who has always been and will always be.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

When God Himself is the subject, there is no finality of understanding, or creed that can fully explain the infinite nature of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Let alone demand submission to its particular perspectives relating to the same, as though there could be no other.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


There are things we simply cannot even see now, limiting of course our understanding, until we can see Him as He is. We must not deny what has been revealed, or presume to go beyond what has not.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:



Offline Hobie

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Re: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Jan 08, 2021 - 18:36:34 »
Stick to the scriptures. Don't presume anything they do not reveal, and do not deny anything they do. Mary is not the mother of God, according to the creed you quoted. It is not possible to be the mother of the self existing one, who has always been and will always be.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

When God Himself is the subject, there is no finality of understanding, or creed that can fully explain the infinite nature of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Let alone demand submission to its particular perspectives relating to the same, as though there could be no other.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


There are things we simply cannot even see now, limiting of course our understanding, until we can see Him as He is. We must not deny what has been revealed, or presume to go beyond what has not.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


Yes as many accept without question and believe what men say rather than what Gods Word declares. I am finding more than one would think, as many Christians take every word from their pastors lips and never check the scriptures or see the truth of matter.

Offline RB

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Re: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jan 09, 2021 - 03:24:35 »
Quote
Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
Sad to say all do not, but Jesus Christ was both The Son of man, and the Son of God~given him a complex nature in one body~to reject this truth is to reject God's testimony concerning his Son!

Hobie, if you think you know the truth on this subject then debate your understanding with me, for I have given many hours over many years considering this very doctrine. But, pretty sure you will not, since every time I have asked you or responded to your post you just disappear.

How much confidence do you have in yourself of not following your pastor's or church doctrine? Show me, and I promise you I will respond back every time you post, I will do likewise.
Quote
1st Timothy 3:16~ "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I say with Paul that the doctrine of godliness concerning the incarnate Sonship of Jesus Christ is without question is a great mystery, but it is not said that we cannot know the truth on this subject, for God's children can come to the knowledge of this doctrine~to say that we cannot, is a cop-out for not applying one's self to know.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 09, 2021 - 03:26:58 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jan 09, 2021 - 04:48:12 »
Quote
1st Timothy 3:16~ "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I say with Paul that the doctrine of godliness concerning the incarnate Sonship of Jesus Christ is without question is a great mystery, but it is not said that we cannot know the truth on this subject, for God's children can come to the knowledge of this doctrine~to say that we cannot, is a cop-out for not applying one's self to know.
Knowing the truth and understanding the truth are two different things entirely.  We can know that Christ is divine and we can define what we mean by that but we still do not really understand what it means.  We can know that we each have a spirit, however that comes about, but we really do not understand much at all about that spirit.  We can know that we each have a conscience, but even in this day and age with all our sophistication and knowledge, we really do not understand the conscience of the human being.

John 1:14 says "...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, ..."  I suspect that books have been written on what that means.  And still we do not really understand the sheer magnitude of that statement because we do not really understand the sheer magnitude of what it means to be God.  We find a similar statement in Hebrews 2:14, i.e., "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same things,...."  We know that is true, but we really do not understand the full measure of that statement. We simply do not understand who the HE is.  We can talk about it, we can know it is true, but still we do not fully understand it.

We can know that Jesus was fully human, i.e., fully man.  He was a living being with a body and a spirit.  I maintain that we can know that Jesus was fully God because it was God, the preincarnate Son, the Spirit, that partook of the flesh and blood (Heb 2:14).  He was a living being with a body and the Spirit.  We can know it, and yet we really do not understand it.  We can know God, but we can never really understand God.  God is quite beyond our understanding.

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Re: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jan 09, 2021 - 04:48:12 »



Offline RB

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Re: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jan 09, 2021 - 13:53:00 »
We can know God, but we can never really understand God.  God is quite beyond our understanding.
Agreed. We can only understand what God has revealed, but never will be we able to fully comprehend God in all of His infinite attributes, not even in our glorified state~for God is a Spirit, that lives and inhabited eternity whom no man or angels have or can see.  Jesus Christ is the express image of God in every sense one can think. See Jesus Christ, then it can be said that you have seen God, YET, Jesus Christ in his humanity will forever be subject unto God, that God may be ALL in ALL.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 09, 2021 - 14:04:03 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Fully God and Fully Man, do all Christians believe this of Christ?
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jan 09, 2021 - 17:42:34 »
Agreed. We can only understand what God has revealed, but never will be we able to fully comprehend God in all of His infinite attributes, not even in our glorified state~for God is a Spirit, that lives and inhabited eternity whom no man or angels have or can see.  Jesus Christ is the express image of God in every sense one can think. See Jesus Christ, then it can be said that you have seen God, YET, Jesus Christ in his humanity will forever be subject unto God, that God may be ALL in ALL.
Jesus' humanity ended when He ascended to the right hand of the Father.  There is no indication whatever that there exists physical beings in heaven, Jesus or otherwise.  He became a little lower than the angels when he took on the body of a human being.  He is not no longer a little lower than the angels.  There is a glory on earth, there is a glory in heaven; John 17:5  And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Surely God the Father answered that prayer of Jesus.