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Online GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #70 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 09:53:50 »
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155624#msg1055155624 date=1580726288]
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Sir, you are deceived and it can be easily proven, most likely not to you but any person willing to trust the scriptures alone will be able to see this for themselves.

You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?

Heb. 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


You are the deceiver here Red. You and your preaching that God's Judgments are "Beggarly Elements"


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You flipped God's holy calling to his elect totally around and put man at the main focal point of his salvation by man's will making the decisive decision to follow Christ. I'll believe Paul over false prophets like you where he clearly taught the early church:

Rom. 1:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 cor. 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; (Already saved) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


You might believe the Pope John Paul, but not the Biblical Paul.

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I'll glory in the LORD JEHOVAH GOD, and let you rot in your on sinful flesh that you think has the power to please God APART from his election of pure grace to sinful, wicked men. is OT theology as well! Enough, for most likely it is wasted time toward people like you who blindly believe that in his flesh there are some GOOD THINGS apart from the grace of God.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If I "yield myself" as Paul instructed, to be a "doer" of the Christ's Words, (Spirit and Life) as opposed to the Popes words, or yours, or my own. It is not my work, or man's work, but HIS Work that I am yielding to.

Where as religious men, who look at God's Judgment, That is, HIS definition of Holy, HIS Definition of Clean, HIS definition of Righteousness, His definition of Love, and judge them as "Beggarly Elements" and refuse them in favor of their own vision, as did Eve, these men are trying to enter heaven by their own works, as did the Mainstream preachers of Jesus' time.

Your anger is prophesied, you will not be able to contain it.




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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #70 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 09:53:50 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #71 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 13:29:20 »
Heb. 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.

2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Are you drunk?  What does Hebrews 13:1,2 have to do with my question to you? I said:
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You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?
AS ALWAYS~This along with so many other of your "small circle of scriptures" that you use are not even related to the topic at hand. I would expect this from grammar school children learning how to debate, but not from men/women who think they know. I said to you:
Quote from: RB on: Today at 04:38:08
You flipped God's holy calling to his elect totally around and put man at the main focal point of his salvation by man's will making the decisive decision to follow Christ. I'll believe Paul over false prophets like you where he clearly taught the early church:
And you came back with these words?
Quote from: GB on: Today at 09:53:50
Rom. 1:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 cor. 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; (Already saved) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
AFTER I quoted
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1st Corinthians 1:26-31~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
Why did you NOT addressed THESE scriptures from Paul and let us ALL see just who you are truly following? You said:
Quote from: GB on: Today at 09:53:50
You might believe the Pope John Paul, but not the Biblical Paul.
It is clear to any HONEST and SINCERE lover of the truth who is following whom!
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Your anger is prophesied, you will not be able to contain it.
The word of God said to be angry AND SIN NOT~just as Jesus was angry and overthrew the tables of the money changer and drove them out of the temple of God~so I'm I toward those who labor to pervert the gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ! A Holy angry spirit is being Christ-like. I evidently shook you up somewhat because of your strange response back using scriptures that had no bearing on what was being addressed!

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #72 on: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 10:41:15 »
 author=RB link=topic=105259.msg1055155658#msg1055155658 date=1580758160]
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Are you drunk?  What does Hebrews 13:1,2 have to do with my question to you?

Your question. "You said God calls ALL to repentance and then quoted a scripture where it PLAINLY said that MANY are called! So which is it?"

In your religion, would God call the angels that dwell among us, that we can not discern are angels?

Or these;

2 Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

In your religion, would God call these folks? Of course not. Abraham was not part of this group.

Therefore "Many" are called.

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I said: AS ALWAYS~This along with so many other of your "small circle of scriptures" that you use are not even related to the topic at hand.

You say a lot of things Red. I don't discard any scriptures because they all teach the same thing. "If you do well, shall you not be accepted".

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I would expect this from grammar school children learning how to debate, but not from men/women who think they know. I said to you: And you came back with these words? AFTER I quoted Why did you NOT addressed THESE scriptures from Paul and let us ALL see just who you are truly following?

Paul isn't saying anything here that He didn't say in the scriptures I posted, or in any of his teaching. Nor is he twisting Isaiah's Words from which he found this quote, to contradict the teaching of Isaiah.


Paul believed in "ALL" that Isaiah said, from his own admission. And Isaiah word's crush modern religious doctrines and traditions, and exposes them as the doctrines and traditions of men they are.

So you are free to pick and choose then twist Isaiah's word's and Paul's words in order to promote your religion, just as the mainstream preachers of Jesus' time used scriptures to justify their lifestyle.

But Paul never engaged in such activity. Just as he never called God's Commandments "Beggarly Elements".

These are your religious traditions.


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You said:  It is clear to any HONEST and SINCERE lover of the truth who is following whom! The word of God said to be angry AND SIN NOT~just as Jesus was angry and overthrew the tables of the money changer and drove them out of the temple of God~so I'm I toward those who labor to pervert the gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ! A Holy angry spirit is being Christ-like. I evidently shook you up somewhat because of your strange response back using scriptures that had no bearing on what was being addressed!

No Red, LOL, you didn't "shake me up". I just know why Jesus said "Many" are called. And "many" come in His Name to deceive, and "many" call Him Lord, Lord, but consider His Word's "Beggarly Elements", and "Many" are on the path to destruction.

God also called "MANY" in Abraham's time as HE is no respecter of persons. That is why it is written; "Today, if you hear HIS Voice, harden not your hearts". Abraham was called by God's Grace, and Abraham humbled Himself to God's calling. The men of Sodom, not so much.

And it is "BECAUSE" of this "work" that Abraham was blessed, by God's Own Word's.

Gen. 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, (BECAUSE)  seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

So now that I have these examples God had written for my admonition;

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Jesus doesn't run the race for me Red. At least not the Jesus of the Bible.

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Notice he doesn't say "Looking unto the Great Religious Philosophers and Religious Theologians of the world."

My disagreement with you is founded 100% in the scriptures. They teach one thing, and you teach another. I have laid before me a choice, life or death, as God laid before Eve and Abraham. God, in HIS Tender Mercy instructed, pleaded, asked me to choose Life of my own accord. Why??? Because God renderers to each man according to his works.

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Job. 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. 12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Psalms 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God. 12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Prov. 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Col. 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

1 Cor. 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

This is the Biblical Truth from the very beginning of God's Word, "If you do well, shall you not be accepted", to the very End of God's Word.

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation.

It was a lie when the serpent told it, and it's still a lie when you teach it. Not because I say so, but because God says so over and over and over and over and over and over.

Today if you hear HIS Voice, Harden not your hearts. Be a Nicodemus Red. "Come out of her".






Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #73 on: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 11:57:02 »
The serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation.

In what Bible can we read that? CAn you tell us what Bible you read? 

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #74 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 18:28:46 »
In what Bible can we read that? CAn you tell us what Bible you read?

Just jumping in here.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The scriptures of course do not specifically say such, but it is no stretch to see that such is implied in the declaration of Satan that eve would not die, but rather be made as unto a god. People who won't die have immortality. Most god's I do believe, are also believed to have immortality. Thus the message is somewhat plainly, disobey God and have immortality and become a god in doing so.

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #74 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 18:28:46 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #75 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 21:01:15 »
Quote from: GB
The serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation.
Quote from: Michael
In what Bible can we read that? CAn you tell us what Bible you read?
Just jumping in here.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The scriptures of course do not specifically say such, but it is no stretch to see that such is implied in the declaration of Satan that eve would not die, but rather be made as unto a god. People who won't die have immortality. Most god's I do believe, are also believed to have immortality. Thus the message is somewhat plainly, disobey God and have immortality and become a god in doing so.

It's ok to jump in Amo. Seemingly, GB jumped out. And I'm not surprised at all in such situation when one finds himself taken aback, and that, by the truth.

Why would it not be a stretch when such scriptures are taken to mean something as that serpent convinced EVE that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation?

Regarding those scriptures, Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation, but that she shall not surely die when she eats of the forbidden fruit and be like god and make her wise. She was deceived into believing that God lied to Adam regarding that.

Now making the passage say something it clearly does not say, such as that which GB there says ~ what could such work be? Is that work good or evil? Of God or of the ancient Serpent?   

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #76 on: Sun Feb 09, 2020 - 07:45:19 »
Just jumping in here.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The scriptures of course do not specifically say such, but it is no stretch to see that such is implied in the declaration of Satan that eve would not die, but rather be made as unto a god. People who won't die have immortality. Most god's I do believe, are also believed to have immortality. Thus the message is somewhat plainly, disobey God and have immortality and become a god in doing so.

Yes, that is satan's message. The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first. That is the first part of satan's deception. "You shall not die", you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.

And it went on to relay the popular religious teaching that God's Judgment makes you blind, burdened. A yoke of bondage designed to keep you blind.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (In the day that you reject God's Judgment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan is teaching that only by rejecting the Commandment of God, and using your own judgment can your blindness be truly healed.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

But notice, she didn't just judge God's Word as not worthy of her respect and Honor, she also taught everyone else around her to do the same. She was truly the first human to be snared by satan to do it's will, which is to turn people away from the Judgments of God.

And the deception began with "you are already saved from death" regardless of what you do.

What a Great, Wise and Merciful Christ we have to show us from the very beginning, the intent of "other religious voices" surrounding us.

I find it remarkable that the serpent is still using the exact same tactics today including quoting some of God's Word to further its deception. And "Many, who come in His Name,  (woman bride, church) has fallen for it once again.

I am comforted that you understand these truths Amo.

You have a great day  ::smile:: ::smile:: ::smile::





Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #77 on: Sun Feb 09, 2020 - 09:30:38 »
Yes, that is satan's message. The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first. That is the first part of satan's deception. "You shall not die", you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.

And I quote "Yes, that is satan's message."

Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation. How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then. That is an obvious twisting of scriptures.

What the serpent told Eve is that she shall not surely die when she eats of the forbidden fruit. The serpent was out to deceive Eve into believing that God lied to Adam regarding that part of the commandment. The serpent went on with this by telling Eve, "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." The Serpent was convincing Eve that, if she ate of the forbidden fruit, she shall be as gods, like god. What that implies is not that Eve was already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what she do, but that, she isn't a god and have no knowledge of good and evil. 

Eve later learned that the serpent deceived her.

Gen. 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

What was the deception? That God lied when He said that they shall surely die in the day that they eat of the tree, with the serpent telling Eve "Ye shall not surely die". The serpent tricked her, that God don't want them to know good and evil, telling her that in the day she eat thereof, her eyes shall be opened, and she shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. It's nothing of the sort of what you say here, that she is already saved from death regardless of what she do.

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #78 on: Sun Feb 09, 2020 - 12:25:14 »
The battle between Satan the fallen angel, and God which started in heaven, continued and took residence in the Garden of Eden. This world was created exactly to address the subject of sin and death which began in heaven when Lucifer rebelled against God's rule. Thus was our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the  - Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8 Therefore do the scriptures declare - Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The question was and is, can a created being live and exist apart from their creator who also sustains them moment by moment. The answer is no. Though God has allowed for the rejection of His righteous authority, until all opposed to it may be pointed out as the evil they are and represent, He will not sustain them forever. He has chosen a day in which He will cut them off in righteousness, and punish them for the wickedness they are and have been guilty of in rebellion against Him. Each and everyone of us will make this decision which no other can make for us. No decision is a decision. Will we submit to Gods' righteous, holy, pure, and proven authority or not? Jesus Christ proved all of the afore mentioned in His life, death, and resurrection for us as God and man. Will we submit to God in Christ Jesus or not? This was the issue in the Garden of Eden, and the issue Jesus Christ addressed by type and shadow during the old covenant, and as the Son and Lamb of God during this new covenant era.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.




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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #79 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 08:04:10 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055156057#msg1055156057 date=1581262238]
Quote
And I quote "Yes, that is satan's message."

Eve needed no salvation then.

No, the satanic message from the "other religious voice" from the very beginning, was not that we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do.

"For God doeth know".

That was satan's message to Eve.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #80 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 08:39:59 »
Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation. How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then. That is an obvious twisting of scriptures.
No, the satanic message from the "other religious voice" from the very beginning, was not that we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do.

"For God doeth know".

That was satan's message to Eve.
Why my statement was isolated from the rest of my post (in orange fonts), could only mean to take it out of context. That's not good. 

Yes, we hear your voice. It says "The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first" and that "you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.", while scriptures doesn't at all say any of that, but that the serpent says to Eve,  "Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Even you perhaps was deceived by the serpent, that you don't even know the lie, the deception, in what the serpent said there.

And yes I hear your voice which falsely accuse me of saying "we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do." And I here will categorically say that it is not what I say at all.

« Last Edit: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 10:27:48 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #81 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 10:19:54 »
Will we submit to Gods' righteous, holy, pure, and proven authority or not? Jesus Christ proved all of the afore mentioned in His life, death, and resurrection for us as God and man. Will we submit to God in Christ Jesus or not? This was the issue in the Garden of Eden, and the issue Jesus Christ addressed by type and shadow during the old covenant, and as the Son and Lamb of God during this new covenant era.

That is your opinion and is what you present here. But there never was such an issue in the garden of Eden regarding that.

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #82 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 10:29:19 »
No, the satanic message from the "other religious voice" from the very beginning, was not that we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do.

"For God doeth know".

That was satan's message to Eve.


Yes, we hear your voice. It says "The Serpent convinced Eve she had eternal life first" and that "you are already immortal, already saved from death regardless of what you do.", while scriptures doesn't at all say any of that, but that the serpent says to Eve,  "Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Even you perhaps was deceived by the serpent, that you don't even know the lie, the deception, in what the serpent said there.

And yes I hear your voice which falsely accuse me of saying "we don't need salvation as you promote here, but that we already have it regardless of anything we do." And I here will categorically say that it is not what I say at all.

Well you said:"
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Eve needed no salvation then
." Implying that this was the meaning of my post. Then you went on to say:
Quote
How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then

So any reasonable person would believe you are promoting the idea that Eve didn't need salvation, or that this scripture had nothing to do with salvation.

And yet Salvation is the only deterrent from death in this world. Without Salvation, no one lives. And the serpent convinced Eve she was already immune from death. A person who shall not die, lives forever. This is the very definition of eternal life. If you are so blind you can't put these things together, then that kind of blindness is well beyond by power to fix.

The argument was "If you break the Command, you shall surely die.

The religious voice came in and told Eve, "You shall surely not die". No conditions, no obedience, no nothing. Satan convinced Eve God chose her to live forever regardless of anything she does, or doesn't do. This teaching was a deception then, and it is still a deception today.


What I am pointing out is that this teaching of satan that God chose Eve to live forever, regardless of her respect or lack thereof for HIS Judgments, is the deception. It is the lie.

This teaching that God's Judgment burdened Eve with Blindness, and the only way to be rid of this blindness is to reject a Judgment of God, and replace HIS judgment with her own, is the deception, it is the lie.

You inability or refusal to accept these truths doesn't make void the lesson God has shared with us in this first recorded deception.






 




Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #83 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 11:19:20 »
Well you said:
Quote
"Eve needed no salvation then."
Implying that this was the meaning of my post. Then you went on to say:
Quote
How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then
So any reasonable person would believe you are promoting the idea that Eve didn't need salvation, or that this scripture had nothing to do with salvation.

Yes, I said that, but not without those you omitted in my post.

Of course that was not what your post was saying. I was the one saying that Eve needed no salvation then. How can you not understand what I said in my post as follows:

Eve needed no salvation then. The serpent indeed convinced Eve, but not that she was already saved, already given eternal life and that her "works" had nothing to do with her salvation. How could that be about the matter of salvation when Eve was without sin then. That is an obvious twisting of scriptures.

Nice try, but it fails to take away the fact that you isolated that statement (bold orange fonts) from the rest of my post out from the context, which is not good at all.

Quote from: GB
And yet Salvation is the only deterrent from death in this world. Without Salvation, no one lives. And the serpent convinced Eve she was already immune from death. A person who shall not die, lives forever. This is the very definition of eternal life. If you are so blind you can't put these things together, then that kind of blindness is well beyond by power to fix.

First, you insist on preaching that the serpent convinced Eve she was already immune from death. When considering the passage,...

Gen. 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

... the truth is that the serpent in saying "Ye shall not surely die" in verse 4 isn't really to tell Eve that she was already immortal or already have eternal life, but to tell Eve that God lied when He said that she will surely die in the day she eat thereof. And in verse 5 the serpent tells us his reason why he said that she will not surely die. And it's not because Eve has eternal life or that she is already immortal, as you want us to believe.

Second, that eternal life is not how you define it there.

Quote from: GB
The argument was "If you break the Command, you shall surely die.
Read the commandment again and this time, with thought.

Quote from: GB
The religious voice came in and told Eve, "You shall surely not die". No conditions, no obedience, no nothing. Satan convinced Eve God chose her to live forever regardless of anything she does, or doesn't do. This teaching was a deception then, and it is still a deception today.

No religious voice came in GB. It's the serpent's voice that came to Eve. And nothing of what you preach that Satan convinced Eve God chose her to live forever regardless of anything she does, or doesn't do. Why such twisting GB? 

Quote from: GB
What I am pointing out is that this teaching of satan that God chose Eve to live forever, regardless of her respect or lack thereof for HIS Judgments, is the deception. It is the lie.

This teaching that God's Judgment burdened Eve with Blindness, and the only way to be rid of this blindness is to reject a Judgment of God, and replace HIS judgment with her own, is the deception, it is the lie.

Who teaches that GB? An imaginary straw man perhaps?

Quote from: GB
You inability or refusal to accept these truths doesn't make void the lesson God has shared with us in this first recorded deception.

What truth are you talking about? Your wrong opinions and twisting of scriptures?
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 11:31:41 by Michael2012 »

Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #84 on: Thu Feb 13, 2020 - 03:33:26 »
Quote
The Sabbath, as described by the Christ who created, Sanctified and Hallowed it, is a day of no work. Therefore, there must be things prepared on the 6th day so as to concentrate on "not polluting His Holy Sabbath" on the 7th. This foreshadows our walk so as to be prepared when He comes. (ie, 10 virgins)

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

 


14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Passover is actually a day of preparation for the "First Day on unleavened Bread", another Holy Feast of the Christ. There were two Holy, Sanctified Sabbaths the week Jesus was crucified. One, started at sundown the day He was killed, the other after Mary purchased spices for the burial.

Also, The Sabbath's of the Holy Christ were HIS Sabbaths, not the Jews. He Gave His Sabbaths to the Jews who despised them and Polluted them. Like preaching that a man couldn't lawfully take a walk and pick a strawberry to eat on the His Holy Sabbath.

So you are claiming that you do NO work on Saturday?

Online GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #85 on: Thu Feb 13, 2020 - 10:58:36 »
So you are claiming that you do NO work on Saturday?

"work" as defined by the Law and Prophets, of course. Why would I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and willfully reject one of His Commandments HE said was made for man?

Would I go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Who would try and convince me to do such things? The Spirit of God? I think not.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #86 on: Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 03:22:47 »
Quote from: Cobalt1959 on Yesterday at 03:33:26
So you are claiming that you do NO work on Saturday?
"work" as defined by the Law and Prophets, of course. Why would I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and willfully reject one of His Commandments HE said was made for man?

Would I go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Who would try and convince me to do such things? The Spirit of God? I think not.

So, on the seventh day, you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle? Yes or no?

So, you do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #87 on: Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 04:16:08 »
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


To those who claim to observe and keep this commandment, and some of which perhaps even say that one will not be saved if he does not. May I ask these simple questions.

On the seventh day, do you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your horse, nor your employees? Yes or no?

Do you not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?

Do you take the seventh day as the period from sixth-day sundown to seventh-day sundown? Yes or no? If no, what then?

Do you work in all of the six days, that is, including Sunday, not a day idle?
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 06:08:48 by Michael2012 »

Online GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #88 on: Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 20:55:22 »
"work" as defined by the Law and Prophets, of course. Why would I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and willfully reject one of His Commandments HE said was made for man?

Would I go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Who would try and convince me to do such things? The Spirit of God? I think not.


So, on the seventh day, you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle? Yes or no?

So, you do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?

4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

No, I don't cook my food on the Christ's Sabbath. I prepare food for this day on the day before. You wouldn't understand being puffed up by your fleshy mind. If you understood about the 10 virgins, you would understand what it means to "prepare" for the Sabbath Rest of God.

Let me ask you a question now. "Would you go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Again; "Today, if you hear His Voice" say " Thou shalt not kill".

Would you run out and Kill?

Again "Today, if you hear His Voice" say "Thou shalt not steal"

Would you run out and shoplift?

 I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you agree with these Judgments of God, and that after you hear them, you didn't despise them by openly transgressing them.

But what about the Commandment God gave to prove whether or not men would walk in His Judgments?

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

So "today, if you hear HIS Voice" say these things, why do you run out and reject this Judgment of God? Didn't the Same God who created "Thou shall not kill", also command you to "Keep the 7th Day Holy"?

Who convinced you that you could judge one Commandment of God as worthy of your honor and respect, and another Commandment of God  unworthy of your honor and respect? Doesn't that make you a "Judge" of God's Word?

Isn't you promoting this "Partiality in God's Law" the same thing the Levites did?

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Isn't this the exact same thing Jesus reject the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time for?

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I do not work for money on the Christ's Sabbath. My business is closed, and those dozen or so people who work for me go home to their families.

I am sharing this with you because you asked. For me it is simply my reasonable service. I am purchased by this Creator who created HIS Sabbath for man. Why would I call this Creator of HIS Holy Sabbath "Lord, Lord, and then reject HIS judgments and follow my own, or yours, or the Popes instead? Especially when I have been warned so many times about religious men who would deceive me into disobedience as was Eve.

I know Jesus said it would be this way, but frankly, it always amazes me to see how hard religious men work to justify their blatant disobedience to the God of the Bible, when it would be so much easier and simpler to just "yield themselves" to Him as instructed. Yes, it would be humiliating for a time, and other religious men would hate you, but being free from all the hypocrisy and deception from the religions of the land is truly worth it, not to mention the promises of God to "show Mercy to those who Love Him and Keep His Commandments".

But He did Prophesy of this very thing.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

As it is to this day.

« Last Edit: Fri Feb 14, 2020 - 21:18:51 by GB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #89 on: Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 06:39:04 »
4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

No, I don't cook my food on the Christ's Sabbath. I prepare food for this day on the day before. You wouldn't understand being puffed up by your fleshy mind. If you understood about the 10 virgins, you would understand what it means to "prepare" for the Sabbath Rest of God.

So, is the seventh day for you, where you don't cook your food, starting from sundown of Friday until sundown of Saturday? 

Quote from: GB
Let me ask you a question now. "Would you go to a strip club in order to honor "Thou shall not commit Adultery"?

Again; "Today, if you hear His Voice" say " Thou shalt not kill".

Would you run out and Kill?

Again "Today, if you hear His Voice" say "Thou shalt not steal"

Would you run out and shoplift?

No.

Quote from: GB
I'm going out on a limb here and assume that you agree with these Judgments of God, and that after you hear them, you didn't despise them by openly transgressing them.

But what about the Commandment God gave to prove whether or not men would walk in His Judgments?

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

So "today, if you hear HIS Voice" say these things, why do you run out and reject this Judgment of God? Didn't the Same God who created "Thou shall not kill", also command you to "Keep the 7th Day Holy"?

I love the Lord. And the Holy Spirit who dwells in me tells me the good that I ought to do each day. And I, with the help of the Holy Spirit who gives me strength, see to it that I should be walking according to the Spirit. There isn't a day that I don't intend to honor God. I don't honor any day nor anything for that matter. It is God whom I honor. 

I heard His voice a long time ago. And I did not resist Him then and so, like Abraham, I believed in Him and Jesus Christ. I was not circumcised into the religion of the Jews and have not been under the Law of Moses. But I am now in covenant with God, under the new covenant, and my mediator is Jesus Christ. God had written His laws in my mind and heart, even the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. Such divine laws as that of love, faith, hope, towards God and love towards neighbor. And the truth of the matter, God said "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." Me and all my brethren in Christ knows God, and we need not teach each one and say "know the Lord". We all have the divine laws of God, written in our minds and hearts no less by God, through the Holy Spirit.

So, in that respect, perhaps we differ?

My God is Spirit and so I worship Him in spirit. If you know what "in spirit" implies, you will understand that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the material creation of God, nor of the elements or rudiments of the world, nor after any carnal commandment.

Quote from: GB
Who convinced you that you could judge one Commandment of God as worthy of your honor and respect, and another Commandment of God  unworthy of your honor and respect? Doesn't that make you a "Judge" of God's Word?

Not convinced as you say there GB. In fact, it never once cross my mind that I could judge any commandment of God. I just take them as they are presented by scriptures. And I am not a judge of any and anyone for that matter. Nor does it make me a judge of God's word in submitting to the truth of scriptures. How about you? Does it make you a judge of God's words if you think your interpretation is right?

Quote from: GB
Isn't you promoting this "Partiality in God's Law" the same thing the Levites did?

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

No GB. I promote nothing (not even the ten commandments, not even the matter of the Sabbath which you are so into as if your salvation depends on it), but Jesus Christ.

Quote from: GB
Isn't this the exact same thing Jesus reject the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time for?

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

No GB. They were rejected because of unbelief.

Quote from: GB
I do not work for money on the Christ's Sabbath. My business is closed, and those dozen or so people who work for me go home to their families.

I am sharing this with you because you asked. For me it is simply my reasonable service. I am purchased by this Creator who created HIS Sabbath for man. Why would I call this Creator of HIS Holy Sabbath "Lord, Lord, and then reject HIS judgments and follow my own, or yours, or the Popes instead? Especially when I have been warned so many times about religious men who would deceive me into disobedience as was Eve.

Who are we to judge someone else's servant? Is any among the brethren in Christ, servant to any one among the brethren, that one should judge what the other is doing? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

So, I am not telling you nor had told you that you should not do what it is you say you do there GB. If you are fully persuaded in your own mind and do it for the Lord, then by all means, do as you must. And I am not telling anyone either, to do or not do as you do. One esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, and that he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 07:18:03 by Michael2012 »

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #90 on: Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 13:17:22 »
 author=Michael2012 link=topic=105259.msg1055156321#msg1055156321 date=1581770344]


Quote
No GB. They were rejected because of unbelief.

Yes, God said "and showing Mercy to thousands who love Me and Keep My Commandments", but they didn't believe God.

God said "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy", but they didn't believe God. And God said not to show Partiality in His Laws, but they didn't believe God.

So because of their unbelief, God never gave them to Jesus.

I am reminded of these inspired Word's of Paul.

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. (judging God's Sabbaths as unworthy of honor is one such lust)

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

God gave me these Word's as well, and I believe them.


Quote
Who are we to judge someone else's servant? Is any among the brethren in Christ, servant to any one among the brethren, that one should judge what the other is doing? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

If you are "weak in the faith", then what are you doing on this forum correcting and judging others as wrong?

Quote
So, I am not telling you nor had told you that you should not do what it is you say you do there GB. If you are fully persuaded in your own mind and do it for the Lord, then by all means, do as you must. And I am not telling anyone either, to do or not do as you do. One esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, and that he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God.

I am only pointing out what the Scriptures say regarding God's Judgments. If you don't believe the Christ's Sabbath is Holy, then so be it.

It is very clear that God esteems some days above others. So much so that He created a Commandment to magnifying it.  I just want to make sure I show these scriptures that "many" are not taught about in their religion, like the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, much the same way Jesus showed the Word's of God that the Mainstream Preachers of HIS time omitted from their religion. You know, like God's Sabbath was made for man.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think there is nothing more to say.



Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #91 on: Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 15:35:07 »
That is your opinion and is what you present here. But there never was such an issue in the garden of Eden regarding that.

Yes, that was the issue, as the scriptures plainly state and point out.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Disobedience to God in the Garden, was disobedience to Christ who is God and created and sustains this world.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....................................
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


God said one thing, Satan claimed another, humanity chose whom they would believe and obey. They chose to believe and obey the liar, the curse and death followed. Christ came to reverse this, and bring all back into willing submission to the Father according to God's eternal purpose.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.







Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #92 on: Sat Feb 15, 2020 - 15:46:55 »
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


To those who claim to observe and keep this commandment, and some of which perhaps even say that one will not be saved if he does not. May I ask these simple questions.

On the seventh day, do you do no work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your horse, nor your employees? Yes or no?

Do you not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the seventh day? Yes or no?

Do you take the seventh day as the period from sixth-day sundown to seventh-day sundown? Yes or no? If no, what then?

Do you work in all of the six days, that is, including Sunday, not a day idle?

The fourth commandment says nothing about lighting fires or not, nor does it command anyone to make sure they work all the other six days. You got the time frame correct. So what is your point? Are you suggesting that anyone who can't perfectly do as God commands, should just go all out evil? Just forget about God's will because you can't perfectly keep it, is that it? Expound please.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #93 on: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 01:46:34 »
The fourth commandment says nothing about lighting fires or not, nor does it command anyone to make sure they work all the other six days. You got the time frame correct.

On lighting and six days work.

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

So, are you suggesting that, in your belief, that whether be it one, or two, or three, or four, or five days that you work and not six, does not matter? Or perhaps, whether you work or not during the six days, it does not matter? And that because for you, the fourth commandment does not command anyone to make sure one work all the other six days? That's interesting.

On time frame, you then live like the Jews, right? At least in that respect. If in the place where you live, such is what the government take as a day, then you are submitting to those who were put in authority there by God. And that's no problem. But if not, then isn't that non-submission? Does not scriptures tell the Christians, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"?

Quote from: Amo
So what is your point?

My point is you are a Christian, and I'd like to believe that. Now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, with respect to Christians, right? Right. Paul at one time rebuked Peter and so too those of the circumcision who were with him and did as did Peter, saying to them "If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?". The issue raised by Paul was not that they should be living after the manner of Gentiles or vise versa. But that, they should not compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews. And that goes the other way as well. On what grounds or reason did Paul say that? He said "a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Quote from: Amo
Are you suggesting that anyone who can't perfectly do as God commands, should just go all out evil? Just forget about God's will because you can't perfectly keep it, is that it? Expound please.

I am not at all suggesting any such wickedness Amo. To the contrary, Christians should by all means do good, walking according to the Spirit who dwells in them, in the divine laws/principles that God had written in their individual minds and hearts ~ love, faith, hope towards God and Christ, and love towards neighbor.

Yes, Christians aren't perfect yet in this concern, but that isn't reason that we intentionally keep on sinning Amo. The fact that we aren't yet perfect, it is the very reason that Christians should cultivate instead, love, faith, hope that is in their hearts and mind, that they grow to maturity unto perfection in these very things, as God transforms and conforms them in the image of the Son, Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

With regards the old covenant law which God gave to the children of Israel through Moses, which includes that concerning of the seventh day Sabbath, I was taught by  the Holy Spirit who dwells in me, that such were made obsolete by the making of the new covenant through Jesus Christ. Not that they were unholy, unjust, and unrighteous. But that they simply were done away with. For scriptures elsewhere said that they are but shadows of realities, and so are meant to be temporary and which vanishes away. They are but shadows of realities, that is, Christ.

You got it right Amo, when you said in the other thread, of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel as were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. All such laws, statutes, and ordinances were meant, to lead the children of Israel, first, to God and Christ, and so then too, the rest of the families of the world. And that sure does not make them in any way unholy, unjust, unrighteous, and not good, as others might think. Though you don't include the ten commandments in that sense. Well, if that's your conviction, let it be with you then. But what cannot be denied concerning the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel, that each one of them which involves the elemental things of the world, such as concerning and involving days, months, years, seasons, food, drink, body, things visible, material things, and anything carnal and pertaining to that, are temporal and in time will vanish away. You can just see for yourself what in the law, (in this thread consider looking at the Sabbath at least) isn't of the spirit, that is, carnal and elemental. And the Christian should not be of really much concern and after what isn't of the spirit. But instead, he should be of really much concern and after what is of the spirit. For scriptures clearly say in Romans 8:5-7 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Amo, God is Spirit and so I worship Him in spirit. I believe you do too. If one knows what "in spirit" implies, he will understand that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the elements or rudiments of the world, nor is it after any carnal commandment.

GB, I hope you are reading this post.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #94 on: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 04:15:24 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 10:19:54
That is your opinion and is what you present here. But there never was such an issue in the garden of Eden regarding that.
Yes, that was the issue, as the scriptures plainly state and point out.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Disobedience to God in the Garden, was disobedience to Christ who is God and created and sustains this world.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....................................
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

While scriptures testifies and declares, there is but one true God, it presents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as distinct persons of God. Taking this away is obviously not the intent of scriptures, that such distinctions were presented. To the contrary, scriptures wants us to acknowledge and honor that. 

So, I would not say that the issue in the Garden of Eden was submitting to God in Christ Jesus or not. The matter in the garden of Eden is what scriptures presents it, that is, between Adam and God.

Quote from: Amo
God said one thing, Satan claimed another, humanity chose whom they would believe and obey. They chose to believe and obey the liar, the curse and death followed. Christ came to reverse this, and bring all back into willing submission to the Father according to God's eternal purpose.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


What happened in the garden of Eden is this. Adam and Eve have no knowledge of good and evil. They know not what lie is nor any evil for that matter. And as you put it, God said one thing, Satan claimed another. God said they would die when they eat of the forbidden fruit, while Satan said they will not. But besides that, the serpent tempted her, telling that her eyes shall be opened and she shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And Eve, innocent as she was then, was deceived by the serpent. What made her eat of the fruit? She saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, and even gave also unto her husband, Adam, who innocent as he too was, heeded his wife, did eat.

If one looks at it intently, we see the weakness of the flesh, with the lust and the desire that it produces, is that which leads them to the disregard of God's words and will for them, which made them have a lack of respect, fear, and faith in God, and trusting the serpent instead, and following the will of the flesh.

You said "They chose to believe and obey the liar, .." I don't think that is a quite fair statement. For Eve and Adam knew not the serpent nor Satan, and that he was a liar and works against God. But I have to point out that it sure does not take away the fact that they chose and believe the serpent's words over God's, to the fulfillment of their will and satisfaction of their flesh. 

And the result, because of Adam's offense, sin entered into the world, and death by sin. And by the offence of Adam, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. It is to be noted that it was Adam's offense, not Eve's that was the issue. There is certainly significance to that, in that, the seed of mankind is Adam and not Eve. For it is Adam who was the first of his kind (mankind), the head and father therefore of mankind, who are therefore fallen with Adam, as they became to be, because of Adam's disobedience. 

Such calls for salvation, for which Christ came to bring about.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 04:17:40 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #95 on: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 05:15:16 »
No GB. They were rejected because of unbelief.

Yes, God said "and showing Mercy to thousands who love Me and Keep My Commandments", but they didn't believe God.

God said "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy", but they didn't believe God. And God said not to show Partiality in His Laws, but they didn't believe God.

So because of their unbelief, God never gave them to Jesus.

I am reminded of these inspired Word's of Paul.

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. (judging God's Sabbaths as unworthy of honor is one such lust)

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

God gave me these Word's as well, and I believe them.

That only further strengthens that the bottom line really is about the spiritual side of all that, that is, the Levites, Pharisees, or any man for that matter, will be cast out/rejected because of unbelief. And you know what that implies, what it makes of work and what it makes of faith, I would like to think so.

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
Who are we to judge someone else's servant? Is any among the brethren in Christ, servant to any one among the brethren, that one should judge what the other is doing? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
If you are "weak in the faith", then what are you doing on this forum correcting and judging others as wrong?

Your words goes to you GB. For the weak in faith is one who seems to have much concern with carnal things, such as those regarding days, and regulations that involves the elemental things of the world. He can't seem to let go of such things and rather occupy himself and continue with the things of the spirit. If I'm not mistaken, I don't remember reading a post from you that speaks about the Spirit. What I do remember is you, always speaking your concerns about what you think a man should do which involves carnal things, such as to rest and not work, to honor a certain day or not in some regulated manner, to cook or not on Saturday, to eat or not eat certain foods, etc. But for the not weak in faith, he is not concerned about such things, but of the things of the Spirit. Do you want to know the things of the Spirit?   

Quote from: GB
Quote from: Michael
So, I am not telling you nor had told you that you should not do what it is you say you do there GB. If you are fully persuaded in your own mind and do it for the Lord, then by all means, do as you must. And I am not telling anyone either, to do or not do as you do. One esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike. I was taught by the Holy Spirit to let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind, and that he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God.
I am only pointing out what the Scriptures say regarding God's Judgments. If you don't believe the Christ's Sabbath is Holy, then so be it.

Oh I do believe that God's judgments are good, holy, just and righteous GB. To insist that I don't is on you. And I do believe that not only the sabbath day is holy and good, but each day that the Lord has made.

Quote from: GB
It is very clear that God esteems some days above others. So much so that He created a Commandment to magnifying it.  I just want to make sure I show these scriptures that "many" are not taught about in their religion, like the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, much the same way Jesus showed the Word's of God that the Mainstream Preachers of HIS time omitted from their religion. You know, like God's Sabbath was made for man.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I think there is nothing more to say.

You showing scriptures is most welcome and is good. But the moment that you show your opinions, then that is a totally different matter, more so if others think that your opinion or your interpretation of scriptures, is erroneous, and not the truth. For quite certainly, any falsehood posted in this forum would attract and calls for a deserving refutation.

You speak of "God's Sabbath was made for man". Since you always say that, could you tell us what that means, that the Sabbath was made for man? I would assume you know what that means, or at least have it mean something that you believe it means.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 16, 2020 - 13:31:47 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #96 on: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 06:48:05 »
The Sabbath was part of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses.

Speaking of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses (or simply the Law), here are some scriptures that refers to it:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Each of the cited passages, among others, tells us what the Law is. As it is , the Law is not only the Levitical priesthood, as GB and others who agrees with him strongly believes. They preach that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office that were done away with by the priesthood of Christ according to the Order of Melchisedec), is binding upon the Christian and should be observed by the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel. And as to what laws, they seem to can not really say specifically what they are. That only points to the obvious error of their doctrine. 

The obvious and clear problem with their doctrine is that scriptures says that the Christian is not under the Law, but is under grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is plain and clear as day!

Looking intently at Romans 6:14, not only is it clear that the Christian is not under the Law but under grace, but also that sin shall have no dominion over him because of that. So, those who hold such doctrine, that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office) is binding upon them, who ought to observe the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel, who have without question subjected themselves under the Law and who have in fact fallen from grace, have sin still have dominion over them.

Also, they failed to acknowledge, if not fail to understand, the truth that is spelled out in the following scriptures concerning the Law:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God

WHY? BECAUSE:

The just shall live by faith

And the law is not of faith

Online GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #97 on: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 08:35:21 »
The Sabbath was part of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses.

Speaking of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses (or simply the Law), here are some scriptures that refers to it:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Each of the cited passages, among others, tells us what the Law is. As it is , the Law is not only the Levitical priesthood, as GB and others who agrees with him strongly believes. They preach that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office that were done away with by the priesthood of Christ according to the Order of Melchisedec), is binding upon the Christian and should be observed by the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel. And as to what laws, they seem to can not really say specifically what they are. That only points to the obvious error of their doctrine. 

The obvious and clear problem with their doctrine is that scriptures says that the Christian is not under the Law, but is under grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is plain and clear as day!

Looking intently at Romans 6:14, not only is it clear that the Christian is not under the Law but under grace, but also that sin shall have no dominion over him because of that. So, those who hold such doctrine, that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office) is binding upon them, who ought to observe the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel, who have without question subjected themselves under the Law and who have in fact fallen from grace, have sin still have dominion over them.

Also, they failed to acknowledge, if not fail to understand, the truth that is spelled out in the following scriptures concerning the Law:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God

WHY? BECAUSE:

The just shall live by faith

And the law is not of faith

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


Lev. 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Lev. 6:24 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, (Levites) saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.


Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.







Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #98 on: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 11:15:45 »
The Sabbath was part of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses.

Speaking of the Law that God gave the children of Israel through Moses (or simply the Law), here are some scriptures that refers to it:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Each of the cited passages, among others, tells us what the Law is. As it is , the Law is not only the Levitical priesthood, as GB and others who agrees with him strongly believes. They preach that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office that were done away with by the priesthood of Christ according to the Order of Melchisedec), is binding upon the Christian and should be observed by the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel. And as to what laws, they seem to can not really say specifically what they are. That only points to the obvious error of their doctrine. 

The obvious and clear problem with their doctrine is that scriptures says that the Christian is not under the Law, but is under grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

That is plain and clear as day!

Looking intently at Romans 6:14, not only is it clear that the Christian is not under the Law but under grace, but also that sin shall have no dominion over him because of that. So, those who hold such doctrine, that the Law (less of the Levitical priesthood and everything associated with said priestly office) is binding upon them, who ought to observe the same, in the manner as it was intended to be kept by the children of Israel, who have without question subjected themselves under the Law and who have in fact fallen from grace, have sin still have dominion over them.

Also, they failed to acknowledge, if not fail to understand, the truth that is spelled out in the following scriptures concerning the Law:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God

WHY? BECAUSE:

The just shall live by faith

And the law is not of faith
Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

So, how does that refute what I posted in the quotebox? It does not. Just posting scriptures does not tell us your mind GB. As it is, you have no refutation of what I said in the quotebox.

And quoting Rom. 3:27 only gives me the impression that you don't also understand what it says, for if you do, you will see it as having nothing to do with what I posted. Also I spoke nothing about boasting nor about the laws/principles of work or of faith. Perhaps you want to know about the laws/principles of work or of faith?

Quote from: GB
Lev. 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.

34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:

35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Lev. 6:24 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, (Levites) saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.


Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So, what is that all about those passages? Just posting scriptures does not tell us your mind GB. 

Well, it seems that's what happens when there is no refutation to give.

Online GB

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #99 on: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:10:51 »
Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

So, how does that refute what I posted in the quotebox? It does not. Just posting scriptures does not tell us your mind GB. As it is, you have no refutation of what I said in the quotebox.

If I post scriptures showing a distinct separation between "Law of Works" and "Law of Faith" you can not accept them.

If I give commentary, you reject everything I say as my opinion.

 I don't need to define the "Deeds" of the Law for justification, God's Word already did.

I am reminded of a tactic used by the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time that you employ.

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

This is what happens when the religion itself becomes the god.






Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #100 on: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:38:53 »
On lighting and six days work.

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

So, are you suggesting that, in your belief, that whether be it one, or two, or three, or four, or five days that you work and not six, does not matter? Or perhaps, whether you work or not during the six days, it does not matter? And that because for you, the fourth commandment does not command anyone to make sure one work all the other six days? That's interesting.

On time frame, you then live like the Jews, right? At least in that respect. If in the place where you live, such is what the government take as a day, then you are submitting to those who were put in authority there by God. And that's no problem. But if not, then isn't that non-submission? Does not scriptures tell the Christians, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"?

My point is you are a Christian, and I'd like to believe that. Now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, with respect to Christians, right? Right. Paul at one time rebuked Peter and so too those of the circumcision who were with him and did as did Peter, saying to them "If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?". The issue raised by Paul was not that they should be living after the manner of Gentiles or vise versa. But that, they should not compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews. And that goes the other way as well. On what grounds or reason did Paul say that? He said "a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

I am not at all suggesting any such wickedness Amo. To the contrary, Christians should by all means do good, walking according to the Spirit who dwells in them, in the divine laws/principles that God had written in their individual minds and hearts ~ love, faith, hope towards God and Christ, and love towards neighbor.

Yes, Christians aren't perfect yet in this concern, but that isn't reason that we intentionally keep on sinning Amo. The fact that we aren't yet perfect, it is the very reason that Christians should cultivate instead, love, faith, hope that is in their hearts and mind, that they grow to maturity unto perfection in these very things, as God transforms and conforms them in the image of the Son, Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

With regards the old covenant law which God gave to the children of Israel through Moses, which includes that concerning of the seventh day Sabbath, I was taught by  the Holy Spirit who dwells in me, that such were made obsolete by the making of the new covenant through Jesus Christ. Not that they were unholy, unjust, and unrighteous. But that they simply were done away with. For scriptures elsewhere said that they are but shadows of realities, and so are meant to be temporary and which vanishes away. They are but shadows of realities, that is, Christ.

You got it right Amo, when you said in the other thread, of the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel as were of the rudiments of traditions of this world, employed in teaching and instruction concerning that which was not of this world. All such laws, statutes, and ordinances were meant, to lead the children of Israel, first, to God and Christ, and so then too, the rest of the families of the world. And that sure does not make them in any way unholy, unjust, unrighteous, and not good, as others might think. Though you don't include the ten commandments in that sense. Well, if that's your conviction, let it be with you then. But what cannot be denied concerning the laws, statutes, and ordinances given to Moses by God to give to Israel, that each one of them which involves the elemental things of the world, such as concerning and involving days, months, years, seasons, food, drink, body, things visible, material things, and anything carnal and pertaining to that, are temporal and in time will vanish away. You can just see for yourself what in the law, (in this thread consider looking at the Sabbath at least) isn't of the spirit, that is, carnal and elemental. And the Christian should not be of really much concern and after what isn't of the spirit. But instead, he should be of really much concern and after what is of the spirit. For scriptures clearly say in Romans 8:5-7 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Amo, God is Spirit and so I worship Him in spirit. I believe you do too. If one knows what "in spirit" implies, he will understand that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the elements or rudiments of the world, nor is it after any carnal commandment.

GB, I hope you are reading this post.

Quite a bit of gobbledegook. Exo 35:2 is not part of the ten commandments though it refers to them. Nor is it the fourth commandment. There is nothing in the fourth commandment about kindling a fire or not. What God expected of Israel on the sabbath in the wilderness while He provided a cloud over them during the day to protect them from the heat of the sun, and a pillar of fire over them by night to protect them from the cold, and manna every day to feed them, has nothing to do with what He would expect when all of that disappeared. Special instructions for special circumstance.

Now here you are again suggesting that commandments spoken directly from the mouth of God and written with His own finger, can be considered rudiments of this world and or of a carnal nature. This is chosen ignorance on your part. Very dangerous ignorance for that matter. You choose to ignore the fact that God did not give the ten commandments to humanity through Moses, but spoke and wrote them Himself. This is your choice. Then you continue to lie and say that they were given to us through Moses. This is your choice. Then you refer to them as rudiments of this world and of a carnal nature. This is your choice. Worse yet, you do this in reference specifically to the one commandment referring to a blessed and sanctified day created by God 2000 years before there ever was Jew, and prophesied to be kept in the new heaven and new earth. A day God blessed and sanctified before there ever was sin, and therefore any rudiments of this present world or anything even like carnality.
Which day is said in scripture to be observed in the new heaven and new earth where there will be no carnality or even remnants of the rudiments of this present fallen world. This is your choice. So be it.

I'll not even address your nonsense about work or not on days other than the sabbath.

I will leave you with the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Believe, teach, and do as you wish. The above words are as applicable to yourself as all the rest of us.


« Last Edit: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:47:36 by Amo »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #101 on: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:52:41 »
If I post scriptures showing a distinct separation between "Law of Works" and "Law of Faith" you can not accept them.

Oh sure you can, but that is not simply the issue, GB. That's why, doing so would not serve you anything to refute what I posted in Reply #96.

Quote from: GB
If I give commentary, you reject everything I say as my opinion.

 I don't need to define the "Deeds" of the Law for justification, God's Word already did.

If you do well will you not be accepted? If your opinion is in keeping with scriptures will it not be accepted?

Quote from: GB
I am reminded of a tactic used by the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time that you employ.

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

This is what happens when the religion itself becomes the god.

You may be reminded of so many things GB, but that does not refute my post in Reply #96.

On the other hand I am reminded of your Ad hominem tactic every time you have no refutation to give.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #102 on: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 16:17:31 »
Quite a bit of gobbledegook. Exo 35:2 is not part of the ten commandments though it refers to them. Nor is it the fourth commandment. There is nothing in the fourth commandment about kindling a fire or not. What God expected of Israel on the sabbath in the wilderness while He provided a cloud over them during the day to protect them from the heat of the sun, and a pillar of fire over them by night to protect them from the cold, and manna every day to feed them, has nothing to do with what He would expect when all of that disappeared. Special instructions for special circumstance.

Perhaps gobbledegook to you Amo. But it can't be denied what the fourth commandment says "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exo. 20:8-11). This is not at all different from what is said in Exodus 35:2. It concerns the seventh day Sabbath.

So, if you are suggesting that the Sabbath is no longer observed and kept like so, how then do you say it should be observed and kept? Who sets the regulations? Perhaps you can share to us how you keep it.

Quote from: Amo
Now here you are again suggesting that commandments spoken directly from the mouth of God and written with His own finger, can be considered rudiments of this world and or of a carnal nature. This is chosen ignorance on your part. Very dangerous ignorance for that matter. You choose to ignore the fact that God did not give the ten commandments to humanity through Moses, but spoke and wrote them Himself. This is your choice. Then you continue to lie and say that they were given to us through Moses. This is your choice. Then you refer to them as rudiments of this world and of a carnal nature. This is your choice. Worse yet, you do this in reference specifically to the one commandment referring to a blessed and sanctified day created by God 2000 years before there ever was Jew, and prophesied to be kept in the new heaven and new earth. A day God blessed and sanctified before there ever was sin, and therefore any rudiments of this present world or anything even like carnality.

Which day is said in scripture to be observed in the new heaven and new earth where there will be no carnality or even remnants of the rudiments of this present fallen world. This is your choice. So be it.

As I said, though the ten commandments were written by God Himself, it does not make the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments not written by Himself as He did with the ten commandments, as being not His. For they equally are His and not Moses'. To say they are not God's is a lie. Would you want me to lie on that? And why do you say I lie if I say the truth about that? Read scriptures and you'll find out that it is God who made the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments, and gave them to the children of Israel, in covenant, through Moses.   

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."? Does that not involve the elemental things of the world, things visible, material things, carnal and are temporal and in time will vanish away?

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates."? Does this not involve the day, the keeping holy of the day? And how do you do that Amo? Is it not about the day, the body, the doing of no work, work that involves food and drink, things visible, material things, carnal and temporal and in time will vanish away?

Quote from: Amo
I'll not even address your nonsense about work or not on days other than the sabbath.

That's no problem. Of course you won't. Just a reminder then from scriptures:

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"

Quote from: Amo
I will leave you with the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Believe, teach, and do as you wish. The above words are as applicable to yourself as all the rest of us.

 ::thumbup::

Jesus Christ indeed had fulfilled the Law, the whole Law. He sinneth not. There is not a single commandment that Jesus had not kept or had violated. 

And let me share you this truth about Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And this about the Christian:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 16:29:39 by Michael2012 »

Offline Amo

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #103 on: Sat Feb 29, 2020 - 18:18:35 »
Perhaps gobbledegook to you Amo. But it can't be denied what the fourth commandment says "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exo. 20:8-11). This is not at all different from what is said in Exodus 35:2. It concerns the seventh day Sabbath.

So, if you are suggesting that the Sabbath is no longer observed and kept like so, how then do you say it should be observed and kept? Who sets the regulations? Perhaps you can share to us how you keep it.

As I said, though the ten commandments were written by God Himself, it does not make the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments not written by Himself as He did with the ten commandments, as being not His. For they equally are His and not Moses'. To say they are not God's is a lie. Would you want me to lie on that? And why do you say I lie if I say the truth about that? Read scriptures and you'll find out that it is God who made the other laws, statutes, ordinances, and judgments, and gave them to the children of Israel, in covenant, through Moses.   

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."? Does that not involve the elemental things of the world, things visible, material things, carnal and are temporal and in time will vanish away?

Is this not part of God's ten commandment, saying "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates."? Does this not involve the day, the keeping holy of the day? And how do you do that Amo? Is it not about the day, the body, the doing of no work, work that involves food and drink, things visible, material things, carnal and temporal and in time will vanish away?

That's no problem. Of course you won't. Just a reminder then from scriptures:

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers"

 ::thumbup::

Jesus Christ indeed had fulfilled the Law, the whole Law. He sinneth not. There is not a single commandment that Jesus had not kept or had violated. 

And let me share you this truth about Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And this about the Christian:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

More gobbledegook. Exodus 35:2 is a brief summary of God's fourth commandment by Moses, and an added rule about not lighting a fire on the Sabbath. Given by Moses on behalf of God to Israel concerning special circumstance, and instruction they had already received. It is not part of the fourth commandment, and was for Israel alone at that particular time and place.

I keep the fourth commandment by seeking to do that which it commands. It is not rocket science.

I know God gave Moses the rules and regs. for Israel to observe, but we are not the literal old covenant nation of Israel. Are you really going to try and turn this around now and pretend you don't know that things have changed in this new covenant? Your entire argument is that they have. We differ upon just what has changed, not whether or not anything has changed. You claim there is no difference between the commandments given by God to Israel personally, and those He gave to them through Moses, I claim there is.

The new covenant brought many and any from outside of Israel into God's fold through Christ Jesus our Lord. Many of the commands given to Israel by God though Moses for old covenant Israel, are not applicable to new covenant non Jewish members in Christ. Many also given to Israel through Moses are no longer applicable to the Israelites either. The NT addresses these changes. The temple and its services are gone, being replaced by Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead. The Church both individually and corporately are the new covenant temple of God, Jesus Christ being the head of the same. The Apostles also determined the same concerning Gentile converts -

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Will your now pretend not to know such things? Nevertheless, the same NT scriptures admonish all to keep the commandments of God many times over and even up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Will you pretend not to know such things. God made a difference between His commandments
and the rest of the laws given specifically to Israel during the old covenant as already specified in our conversation. The NT scriptures do the same thing by allowing for and even specifying many of the changes it does in those same laws specific to Israel, while admonishing all to keep God's commandments at the same time to the end. Will you now pretend not to know this? Shall I quote them all to you? Hear just the ones in the last book of the NT.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Why will you determine that all who would keep the commandments of God seek to be saved by the law, when the scriptures identify the saints as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who also kept the commandments of God and admonished all others to do so as well? Followers of Jesus are not to keep the law in order to be saved, but rather because they are saved in Christ whom they have chosen to follow.

The commandments and statutes given to Israel of the old covenant were given through the man Moses, exactly because they were of the rudiments of this world and meant to pass away. Many of them were meant to pass away before this world passes away in Christ Jesus our Lord. All that was specific to Israel as a nation alone, and all that was concerning the sanctuary and its services which were meant to point them to Christ are passed away in Christ and His new covenant church. Some of which I shared above from the NT, much more in the book of Hebrews and elsewhere concerning the temple and its sacrifices, and other ceremonial, civil, or dietary laws. This you know, as the scriptures themselves point out. So why do you reject that the ten commandments which all are admonished to keep all through the NT as the same as these other laws and statutes when scripture itself makes a distinction? This is your choice.

1 Cor. 7:17 Only, let each one [seek to conduct himself and regulate his affairs so as to] lead the life which the Lord has allotted and imparted to him and to which God has invited and summoned him. This is my order in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his summons [from God] already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the evidence of circumcision. Was anyone at the time [God] called him uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 For circumcision is nothing and counts for nothing, neither does uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God. 20 Everyone should remain after God calls him in the station or condition of life in which the summons found him.(AMPC)

Be careful my friend, to rightly divide the word of God.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 29, 2020 - 18:29:20 by Amo »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Jewish Sabbath .......
« Reply #104 on: Sun Mar 01, 2020 - 02:38:48 »
More gobbledegook. Exodus 35:2 is a brief summary of God's fourth commandment by Moses, and an added rule about not lighting a fire on the Sabbath. Given by Moses on behalf of God to Israel concerning special circumstance, and instruction they had already received. It is not part of the fourth commandment, and was for Israel alone at that particular time and place.

That is what is gobbledegook Amo, that it is now the Christian who says what law is for the children of Israel only and what is for all men. Is that not too convenient for you to say, to support your belief, when clearly, not only is the commandment written in Exodus 35:3 is for Israel alone, but all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses.

If we ask a non Christian Jew, to whom did God gave the ten commandments and applies, was it to the children of Israel only or to the whole world, what do you honestly think will their answer be? Will they give you their personal opinion or will they point you to their scriptures where it says that God gave it in covenant to the children of Israel, and not to the Egyptians nor any other people on earth, through Moses?   

Quote from: Amo
I keep the fourth commandment by seeking to do that which it commands. It is not rocket science.

So, you apply the 4th commandment of God to the children of Israel upon you and binds yourself to keep it, and is now the one who regulates it according to whatever you think is fitting. Nothing wrong in that, I have to say. But certainly, the Jew would say the opposite.

Yes you say it is not rocket science, yet apparently you won't answer the simple question, how do you keep the fourth commandment? Why not tell? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that some in your congregation might not agree on how you are keeping it?

Quote from: Amo
I know God gave Moses the rules and regs. for Israel to observe, but we are not the literal old covenant nation of Israel. Are you really going to try and turn this around now and pretend you don't know that things have changed in this new covenant? Your entire argument is that they have. We differ upon just what has changed, not whether or not anything has changed. You claim there is no difference between the commandments given by God to Israel personally, and those He gave to them through Moses, I claim there is.


Yes my argument is that the old covenant, (meaning all that constitutes it including of course the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests,) was made obsolete and was replaced by the new covenant whose mediator is Jesus Christ. You claim that there are parts of the covenant that were not made obsolete and changed, so that, your argument is that only part of the old covenant (Mosaic) was made obsolete and not really the entire old covenant (Mosaic), which is contrary to scriptures. For the covenant in Christ is not a revised covenant of the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator of the, but is a new one in great lot of sense. The old being but the shadow, and the new being the very substance of the shadow. If you know the difference between a shadow and the very substance, then you will understand the great difference between the old and the new covenants, and would come to understand what becomes of the shadow covenant and see how better off the new covenant is. 

My argument is that, the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stones, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, are equally God's laws, and not Moses'.Your argument on the other hand is that there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book. 

So, your argument there does not refute my argument. And whether there is difference between the commandments given by God to Israel written by Himself on tablets of stone, and those He gave to them through Moses to write in a book, it does not take away the truth that it is to the children of Israel that God gave them in covenant with, and not with the people of Egypt nor with any other peoples of the earth. So much so that, if I'm not mistaken, any one who is not a natural physical descendant of Israel, who wanted to be in covenant with God and be under the Law of the covenant, is required to become circumcised, as though were native born and become a citizen of the nation of Israel and no longer strangers to the commonwealth of Israel.

Quote from: Amo
The new covenant brought many and any from outside of Israel into God's fold through Christ Jesus our Lord. Many of the commands given to Israel by God though Moses for old covenant Israel, are not applicable to new covenant non Jewish members in Christ. Many also given to Israel through Moses are no longer applicable to the Israelites either. The NT addresses these changes. The temple and its services are gone, being replaced by Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead. The Church both individually and corporately are the new covenant temple of God, Jesus Christ being the head of the same. The Apostles also determined the same concerning Gentile converts -

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

How is it that you cannot accept the scriptures in Hebrews 8 which says that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ? It's not only some parts or constituents of the covenant that was replaced and changed Amo. It's the entire covenant, including all that constitutes it including the ten commandments, all the laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, regulations, rules, and judgments, that God gave in covenant to them, the sanctuary and all that pertains to the worship service, Levitical priesthood and all that pertains to the office of the priests. 

The Acts 15 passage surely does not refute the truth (for truth does not refute truth)  that the covenant that God made with the children of Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, with Moses as mediator, had been made obsolete, having been replaced by the new covenant in Christ. In fact you'll find that it reinforces it, if you'll only read Acts 15 carefully. Do not forget to consider what the issue is about at the time, that is, the salvation issue (Acts 15:1,5) concerning the need for the Gentile converts to the Christian faith to be circumcised in the flesh, and the requirement for them to keep the law of Moses.

Read this passage in Acts 15 carefully and thoughtfully: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Can you not see what the apostles and elders with the whole church at Jerusalem are saying there? That they gave no such commandment as follows: "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law". They gave no commandment to the Gentile converts to keep the law. What law, but the old covenant law, the Law of Moses? So, why do you now seem to not able to accept this and even go against it?   
 
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, why these instructions to the Gentile Christians then? The answer is in Acts 15. It is for peace's sake among the church, to keep the peace among Jew and Gentile believers. It was obviously temporary in nature and was for the settlement of a then present day dispute. Temporary until there will be no more dispute on the matter within the church, in the same way that there is not any dispute on the said matter between the chosen and inspired apostles of Christ.

Don't you notice that these things of the law, such as these things they instructed there, the abstaining from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication, are taken by the apostles and elders as being BURDENS? Think about that Amo, as to what is the implication of that on the Law of Moses.

Quote from: Amo
Will your now pretend not to know such things? Nevertheless, the same NT scriptures admonish all to keep the commandments of God many times over and even up to the last book and chapter of the bible. Will you pretend not to know such things. God made a difference between His commandments
and the rest of the laws given specifically to Israel during the old covenant as already specified in our conversation. The NT scriptures do the same thing by allowing for and even specifying many of the changes it does in those same laws specific to Israel, while admonishing all to keep God's commandments at the same time to the end. Will you now pretend not to know this? Shall I quote them all to you? Hear just the ones in the last book of the NT.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Of course the NT scriptures admonish all to keep all the laws of God. For the sake of argument, even if for example there is not an NT scriptures that says that, the Holy Spirit who dwells in the Christians tells him the same thing. The issue is not that, but what laws the Christians or the new covenant people of God are to keep and walk their life according to, here on earth? They are definitely not the Law of Moses, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. And how are they to keep it? Logically not according to the letter of the law written in book of the covenant (Mosaic) nor according to the works of the law of Moses, but according to the law written in their mind and heart, and according to the Spirit, carried out in faith and in spirit and in truth.

Quote from: Amo
Why will you determine that all who would keep the commandments of God seek to be saved by the law, when the scriptures identify the saints as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, who also kept the commandments of God and admonished all others to do so as well? Followers of Jesus are not to keep the law in order to be saved, but rather because they are saved in Christ whom they have chosen to follow.


I don't determine as you seem to say I do.

By grace Christians are saved through faith, not that of themselves, not of works. They are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that they should walk in them. 

Quote from: Amo
The commandments and statutes given to Israel of the old covenant were given through the man Moses, exactly because they were of the rudiments of this world and meant to pass away. Many of them were meant to pass away before this world passes away in Christ Jesus our Lord. All that was specific to Israel as a nation alone, and all that was concerning the sanctuary and its services which were meant to point them to Christ are passed away in Christ and His new covenant church. Some of which I shared above from the NT, much more in the book of Hebrews and elsewhere concerning the temple and its sacrifices, and other ceremonial, civil, or dietary laws. This you know, as the scriptures themselves point out. So why do you reject that the ten commandments which all are admonished to keep all through the NT as the same as these other laws and statutes when scripture itself makes a distinction? This is your choice.

What distinction Amo, besides the manner on how God had given them to the children of Israel, that would support your position that this part of the old covenant, the ten commandments are not included with the rest of the covenant law as having been replaced by the new covenant?

Amo, would you say that the law of circumcision in the OT is done away with? If yes, why do you say so? If no, why do you say so?

Quote from: Amo
1 Cor. 7:17 Only, let each one [seek to conduct himself and regulate his affairs so as to] lead the life which the Lord has allotted and imparted to him and to which God has invited and summoned him. This is my order in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his summons [from God] already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the evidence of circumcision. Was anyone at the time [God] called him uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 For circumcision is nothing and counts for nothing, neither does uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God. 20 Everyone should remain after God calls him in the station or condition of life in which the summons found him.(AMPC)

Be careful my friend, to rightly divide the word of God.

Yes my friend, be careful. Don't forget the context in that passage. 
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