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Offline current occupant2

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What happened?
« on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 12:55:59 »
I found this posted on another forum so I thought I would copy it to this one since there are several SDA experts here.


According what was prophesied in Daniel 8:9-13, what happened in 457BC to begin the 2300 period?

Did any of the following happen in 457BC?


1. cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them

2. Took away the daily sacrifice

3. cast down the place of the sanctuary

4. cast down the truth to the ground

5. Gave both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot

As Daniel 8:9-13 describes the 2300 period.

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? Daniel 8:9-13


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What happened?
« on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 12:55:59 »

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #1 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 07:49:51 »
I found this posted on another forum so I thought I would copy it to this one since there are several SDA experts here.


According what was prophesied in Daniel 8:9-13, what happened in 457BC to begin the 2300 period?

Did any of the following happen in 457BC?


1. cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them

2. Took away the daily sacrifice

3. cast down the place of the sanctuary

4. cast down the truth to the ground

5. Gave both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot

As Daniel 8:9-13 describes the 2300 period.

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? Daniel 8:9-13

Nothing. The prophecy of the 2300 days isn't given until verse 14, and isn't explained to Daniel until chapter nine. The angel Gabriel addresses and explains the ram, goat, and little horn, but does not address the 2300 day prophecy. He doesn't begin explaining this vision again until chapter nine.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21  Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22  And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23  At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

There is no other vision between chapters 8 & 9 that Gabriel could be explaining, and the 2300 day prophecy was mentioned but not explained in chapter 8. SDA's therefore rightly conclude that Gabriel is picking up where he left off in chapter 8.

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #1 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 07:49:51 »

Offline current occupant2

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Nov 01, 2019 - 10:08:22 »
Actually the prophecy of what would happen was given in Daniel 8:9-12

Daniel 8:13 is the question of the duration of the desolation.

Daniel 8:14 is the answer to the length of the duration of the desolation. 

IF, as you admit, nothing happened in 457BC to desolate the sanctuary and fulfill the rest of the prophesied events, then you have invalidated your date of 1844. 



.
Nothing. The prophecy of the 2300 days isn't given until verse 14, and isn't explained to Daniel until chapter nine. The angel Gabriel addresses and explains the ram, goat, and little horn, but does not address the 2300 day prophecy. He doesn't begin explaining this vision again until chapter nine.

Dan 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21  Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22  And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23  At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

There is no other vision between chapters 8 & 9 that Gabriel could be explaining, and the 2300 day prophecy was mentioned but not explained in chapter 8. SDA's therefore rightly conclude that Gabriel is picking up where he left off in chapter 8.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 03, 2019 - 09:28:10 »
Actually the prophecy of what would happen was given in Daniel 8:9-12

Daniel 8:13 is the question of the duration of the desolation.

Daniel 8:14 is the answer to the length of the duration of the desolation. 

IF, as you admit, nothing happened in 457BC to desolate the sanctuary and fulfill the rest of the prophesied events, then you have invalidated your date of 1844. 



.


You are confused about what SDA's believe. We do not propose that the sanctuary was desolated in 457 BC. The earthly sanctuary did not exist in 457 BC, it lay in ruins. We believe its restoration and rebuilding began in 457 BC.

Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

http://www.patmospapers.com/daniel/457.htm

Quote
"The Commandment to Restore and to Build Jerusalem"

Four different decrees have been considered as the possible application of this prophecy.

1. The decree of Cyrus recorded in Ezra 1:1-4.

In Jeremiah 29:10, God had promised, "After seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place."

Ezra 1:1 says, "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus, king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom...."

The royal decree went forth in the year 536 B.C., at which time nearly 50,000 Jews returned to their homeland.

Two centuries earlier, God had appointed Cyrus for this task: "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." Isaiah 44:28.

Recognizing in Isaiah's prophecy a personal directive, Cyrus began his decree with these words, "The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah." Ezra 1:2.

Cyrus continued, "Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem." Ezra 1:3.

This first decree authorized the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. Ezra chapter 3 tells us that those who returned to Judea gathered in Jerusalem to observe the feast of tabernacles in the seventh month, and the following spring, "in the second month," they "set forward the work of the house of the Lord" (verses 1, 4, 8).

After the foundation of the temple had been laid, "the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin," "the people of the land," being prohibited from participating in the project, "weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building, and hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia." Ezra 4:1-5.

"Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalm. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia." Ezra 4:24.

When, under the inspiration of Haggai and Zechariah, the work on the temple was finally resumed, the governor of the region, with a group of other officials, came and asked the workers, "Who hath commanded you to build this house?" Ezra 5:3.

They replied, "In the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God." Ezra 5:13.

So the governor and his officials wrote a letter to King Darius I, saying, "If it seem good to the king, let there be search made in the king's treasure house, which is there at Babylon, whether it be so, that a decree was made of Cyrus the king to build this house of God at Jerusalem, and let the king send his pleasure to us concerning this matter." Ezra 5:17.

2. The decree of Darius I recorded in Ezra 6:1-12.

Because of the letter Darius received from the governor of the area west of the Euphrates, a search was made, and Cyrus' original decree was found. Darius then issued his own decree, saying, "Let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place." Darius instructed his governor to supply the Jews with money or whatever else they needed, that "the building of this house of God . . . be not hindered." Ezra 6:7, 8.

Based on Ezra 4:24, this decree was probably issued in 520 B.C., the second year of the reign of Darius. With the hinderances now removed, the temple was completed in the sixth year of Darius (516 B.C.) on the third day of the twelfth month, and in the following month they kept the passover. Ezra 6:15, 19.

3. The decree of Artaxerxes I (Longimanus) recorded in Ezra 7:12-26.

King Artaxerxes, in the seventh year of his reign (457 B.C.), authorized Ezra the priest and scribe, and all who wished to join him, to go to Jerusalem. It was Ezra's desire to instruct the Jews in the laws of God. Artaxerxes granted him large amounts of silver and gold to furnish the temple, and gave instruction that his treasurers on that side of the river should provide whatever was needed to beautify the Lord's house.

In the decree, Artaxerxes commanded Ezra to "set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment." Ezra 7:25, 26.

Ezra left Babylon on the first day of the first month of Artaxerxes' seventh year, and arrived in Jerusalem exactly four months later on the first day of the fifth month. Ezra 7:7-9. Three days later the gifts brought from Babylon were registered in the temple treasury, and sacrifices were offered to God. Ezra 8:32-35. Either at that time or shortly thereafter, "they delivered the king's commissions unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors on this side the river." Ezra 8:36.

Some time later, officials from the surrounding nations wrote a letter of skepticism to Artaxerxes, saying, "Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations." Ezra 4:12. They went on to say that if the king would check the history of Jerusalem, he would find that it was a rebellious city which would not submit to Babylonian rule, and that is why it was destroyed. If it were allowed to be rebuilt, the king would have the same problems again. Ezra 4:13-16.

Artaxerxes checked the records, and discovered that old Jerusalem had indeed made insurrection, rebellion and sedition against kings. So he issued a new command that the work of building should stop until he gave further word. Ezra 4:17-22.

4. The decree of Artaxerxes mentioned in Nehemiah chapters 1 and 2.

The story of Nehemiah begins in the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign. Nehemiah, a Jew, was the king's cupbearer. One day some of his brethren from Judah arrived in Shushan where king's palace was. Nehemiah inquired of them about the condition of things in Jerusalem.

"The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach," they replied. "The wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire."

Nehemiah sat down and wept. For several days he mourned and fasted and prayed. His prayer is remarkably similar to that of Daniel in Daniel 9. He prayed that somehow God would "grant him mercy in the sight of" the king.

Four months later, Nehemiah was serving wine to the king, and Artaxerxes noticed a sadness on Nehemiah's countenance. "Why is thy countenance sad?" the king asked.

Nehemiah explained that Jerusalem was still in ruins, the wall and the gates were still not repaired. When the king asked what he would like to do, Nehemiah answered, "If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it."

Artaxerxes consented, and sent with him letters for the governors of the region, authorizing the rebuilding project. This commission was issued in the spring of 444 B.C., in Artaxerxes' 20th year of reign.

Evaluating the four decrees

Daniel 9:25 says, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

This is an important verse to understand. It is the only prophecy in the Bible which tells us precisely when the Messiah would arrive. It is extremely vital therefore to know exactly when that time period began.

The event to mark the beginning of the seventy weeks is stated to be "the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem." But to which "commandment" does it refer? We have just seen that there were four different decrees, all of which seem quite similar. If we use the wrong starting point, the whole prophecy will be off.

As always, it is essential to pay close attention to the words of the text. We are looking for a command to "restore and to build Jerusalem." The decree of Cyrus, recorded in Ezra 1, gave instruction only for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. It said nothing about restoring the whole city. The decree of Darius, recorded in Ezra 6, was simply his endorsement of the decree of Cyrus. It mentioned only the building of the "house of God." But in the decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in Ezra 7, provision is made for the complete restoration of the Jewish state, including the right to appoint magistrates and judges, hold trials, and pass and execute sentence upon violators of their own national laws.

This was clearly understood to be an authorization for the full reestablishment of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation; for shortly after this the enemies of the Jews wrote to the king complaining that "the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations" Ezra 4:12. That the walls had been completely set up was obviously an exaggeration, as verse 13 reveals. Yet this incident shows that for the first time there was actual work being done to rebuild the city. This had not been the case under the previous decrees.

The fourth decree (Nehemiah 2), the wording of which has not been preserved, was simply a reinstatement of Artaxerxes' original authorization, this time naming Nehemiah to take charge of the project.

Considering all the options, the decree which most correctly answers to the specifications of Daniel 9:25 was the decree of Artaxerxes to Ezra, recorded in Ezra chapter 7. We should therefore date the beginning of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 from the time of that command.

Determining the date of the decree

The dates for Artaxerxes' reign are well documented in the ancient sources. These sources include the Greek historians, Ptolemy's Canon, the Babyonian business tablets, and the Elephantine papyri from Egypt. From these documents we know that Xerxes was killed in late December of 465 B.C., and the reign of Artaxerxes began at that time.

The decree to restore and build Jerusalem was issued in the seventh year of Artaxerxes' reign (Ezra 7:7, 8).

The book of Ezra was written in Jerusalem for the Jews. It would be natural that he would use the Jewish method of reckoning in numbering the years. Whereas the Babylonians and Persians began their years in the spring, the Jews counted their civil year as beginning in the fall (See Determining Biblical Dates). This means that Artaxerxes' accession year, according to the Jewish method of reckoning, extended until the fall of 464 B.C., at which time his first year of reign began. His seventh year is thus determined as follows:

Artaxerxes Reign   Fall to Fall
First year   464/463 B.C.
Second year   463/462 B.C.
Third year   462/461 B.C.
Fourth year   461/460 B.C.
Fifth year   460/459 B.C.
Sixth year   459/458 B.C.
Seventh year   458/457 B.C.
Therefore, the seventh year of Artaxerxes, according to Jewish reckoning, extended from the fall of 458 to the fall of 457 B.C.

Although the Jews began their civil calendar year in the fall, and the reigns of kings were counted according to that calendar, the numbering of months was always in reference to the spring. Thus their civil year began in the "seventh" month and ended in the "sixth" month. As an example, notice Artaxerxes' 20th year as recorded in the book of Nehemiah. News of the condition of things in Jerusalem came to Nehemiah in Artaxerxes' 20th year, in the month of Chisleu or Kislev which was the 9th month (Nehemiah 1:1). But later, when Nisan, the 1st month, came, it was still Artaxerxes' 20th year (Nehemiah 2:1).

With that understanding, we may now determine quite closely the beginning of the 70-week prophecy. Ezra 7:9 tells us that Ezra left Babylon on the first day of the first month, which was probably early April depending upon the moon and the barley harvest. He arrived in Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month, which would then be early August, 457 B.C. We are not exactly certain of the date in which the king's commission was delivered to the king's lieutenants and governors, but we may be quite certain that it was at least August of that year.

As noted in our comments on Daniel 9:25, the significant point in the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was not when it was signed by Artaxerxes, but rather when it went into effect, after Ezra arrived in Jerusalem. The decree was useless until the Jews were actually made aware of it and could act upon it. Until they and the governors east of the river heard it, the decree had not fully "gone forth." Therefore, we begin the prophecy of Daniel 9 in the late summer or early fall of the year 457 B.C.


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Re: What happened?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 03, 2019 - 09:28:10 »

Offline current occupant2

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 03, 2019 - 11:45:38 »
Well there is another misdirection of the topic..

Daniel 8 teaches that the sanctuary will be made desolate along with the other events listed in the opening post, at the beginning of and for the duration of the 2300 period. 

You keep avoiding that fact. 


You are confused about what SDA's believe. We do not propose that the sanctuary was desolated in 457 BC. The earthly sanctuary did not exist in 457 BC, it lay in ruins. We believe its restoration and rebuilding began in 457 BC.

Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

http://www.patmospapers.com/daniel/457.htm

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 03, 2019 - 11:45:38 »



Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #5 on: Fri Nov 08, 2019 - 09:25:43 »
Well there is another misdirection of the topic..

Daniel 8 teaches that the sanctuary will be made desolate along with the other events listed in the opening post, at the beginning of and for the duration of the 2300 period. 

You keep avoiding that fact.

I'm not avoiding anything, just straightening out your confusion regarding what SDA's believe. They believe 457 to be the beginning date of the 2300 year period.


Offline current occupant2

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #6 on: Fri Nov 08, 2019 - 10:05:46 »
So IF 457BC is the beginning of the period of 2300, What was trampled in 457BC that was un-trampled in 1844?



I'm not avoiding anything, just straightening out your confusion regarding what SDA's believe. They believe 457 to be the beginning date of the 2300 year period.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #7 on: Fri Nov 08, 2019 - 21:58:10 »
So IF 457BC is the beginning of the period of 2300, What was trampled in 457BC that was un-trampled in 1844?

The prophecies of Dan 8 cover history from the Medo-Persian empire, through the Grecian, pagan, and papal Roman Empire. The events described near the end of the chapter are in relation to the Roman Empire in both pagan and papal form, and have dual applications concerning both. The year 457 BC is not specified until the details of chapter nine are investigated, which date is in reference to the cleansing of the sanctuary, not all the other events or details you are referring to. They take place during the course of this time period as well, but not specifically in 457 BC. The literal pagan Romans literally destroyed the earthly temple, while the spiritually papal Romans cast down the truth of the new covenant heavenly sanctuary and its High Priest Jesus Christ, by replacing Him with the Pope and false priesthood they set up in Jesus' place. Directing people to themselves for intercession, instead of our heavenly High Priest and Savior Jesus Christ. The Investigative Judgment truth of the SDA Church concerning the 2300 day prophecy, the heavenly sanctuary, and our High Priest of this new covenant era Jesus Christ, brought back up the truth of the sanctuary which pagan and papal Rome had cast to the ground. Literal Rome destroyed the earthly temple, and spiritual Rome cast down Jesus Christ and His High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary to this earth by replacing that very ministry with their own false priesthood.


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Re: What happened?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Nov 08, 2019 - 22:54:36 »
So then, by your own admission, nothing was cast down in 457BC to begin the 2300 as foretold in the prophecy of Daniel 8.

How can the fulfilment of a prophecy begin when the specified details of Daniel 8:9-12 do not occur?




The prophecies of Dan 8 cover history from the Medo-Persian empire, through the Grecian, pagan, and papal Roman Empire. The events described near the end of the chapter are in relation to the Roman Empire in both pagan and papal form, and have dual applications concerning both. The year 457 BC is not specified until the details of chapter nine are investigated, which date is in reference to the cleansing of the sanctuary, not all the other events or details you are referring to. They take place during the course of this time period as well, but not specifically in 457 BC. The literal pagan Romans literally destroyed the earthly temple, while the spiritually papal Romans cast down the truth of the new covenant heavenly sanctuary and its High Priest Jesus Christ, by replacing Him with the Pope and false priesthood they set up in Jesus' place. Directing people to themselves for intercession, instead of our heavenly High Priest and Savior Jesus Christ. The Investigative Judgment truth of the SDA Church concerning the 2300 day prophecy, the heavenly sanctuary, and our High Priest of this new covenant era Jesus Christ, brought back up the truth of the sanctuary which pagan and papal Rome had cast to the ground. Literal Rome destroyed the earthly temple, and spiritual Rome cast down Jesus Christ and His High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary to this earth by replacing that very ministry with their own false priesthood.

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #9 on: Fri Nov 08, 2019 - 22:57:07 »
There are only two animals in Daniel 8 that represent two named kingdoms. 

There are only two named kingdoms in Daniel 8 and neither of them are referred to as ‘Rome’ or the ‘Roman empire’. 

You must have a different Bible than the Christian Bible. 


The prophecies of Dan 8 cover history from the Medo-Persian empire, through the Grecian, pagan, and papal Roman Empire. The events described near the end of the chapter are in relation to the Roman Empire in both pagan and papal form, and have dual applications concerning both. The year 457 BC is not specified until the details of chapter nine are investigated, which date is in reference to the cleansing of the sanctuary, not all the other events or details you are referring to. They take place during the course of this time period as well, but not specifically in 457 BC. The literal pagan Romans literally destroyed the earthly temple, while the spiritually papal Romans cast down the truth of the new covenant heavenly sanctuary and its High Priest Jesus Christ, by replacing Him with the Pope and false priesthood they set up in Jesus' place. Directing people to themselves for intercession, instead of our heavenly High Priest and Savior Jesus Christ. The Investigative Judgment truth of the SDA Church concerning the 2300 day prophecy, the heavenly sanctuary, and our High Priest of this new covenant era Jesus Christ, brought back up the truth of the sanctuary which pagan and papal Rome had cast to the ground. Literal Rome destroyed the earthly temple, and spiritual Rome cast down Jesus Christ and His High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary to this earth by replacing that very ministry with their own false priesthood.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #10 on: Sat Nov 09, 2019 - 11:20:37 »
There are only two animals in Daniel 8 that represent two named kingdoms. 

There are only two named kingdoms in Daniel 8 and neither of them are referred to as ‘Rome’ or the ‘Roman empire’. 

You must have a different Bible than the Christian Bible.

Wrong. There are three kingdoms or powers depicted in Dan. 8, each exceeding the power and greatness of the one preceding them. Only two of them are depicted as animals, the third is not, which corrolates to the fourth beast of Dan. 7. It also is not described as an existing animal though the previous three are. Which prophecy also speaks of a little horn tying it to the third power of Dan 8 as well.

Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

We have the same bibles, you just don't want there to be a third power or kingdom. So be it. Perhaps the following can help.


                                    CHAP.  3 THE PRIESTHOOD

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

According to the Apostle Peter, those who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, are a royal and holy priesthood. Each member of the body of Christ is an ambassador for Christ. Using whatever gifts of the Spirit that God gives them to bring people to a knowledge of God by introducing them to His Son, who is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). Unlike the priests of the old covenant who stood as a type of Christ, mediating if you will between humanity and God, new covenant believers introduce the world to the one and only true mediator between man and God. The literal priesthood of the old covenant has been abolished by Christ in favor of the spiritual priesthood of the new covenant.

The old covenant believer was dependent upon a literal human being and place to receive forgiveness of sins. The new covenant believer however, after being introduced to the Lord Jesus Christ our High Priest who ever liveth to intercede for us, can receive forgiveness for sins at any time and in any place ( Jn 4: 19-24). The new covenant believer has no need for a human go between, but has been given direct access to the throne of God in and through the ministration of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Each believer may now come boldly before the throne of God with their prayers and confessions, entreating the mercies of our loving God. This is among the most precious promises of the new testament scriptures.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


The Lord Jesus Christ came to earth and became one of us, so that we could each have a close and personal relationship with Him and his Father in heaven. The Devil has ever sought to separate humanity from God. With the cooperation of our first parents he succeeded in the garden. Ever since, God has been seeking to bring us back, and Satan has been seeking to keep us apart. Jesus came to draw all humanity to the Father. Through His intercession humanity has been given the opportunity of a direct personal relationship with the Father, which none can hinder save ourselves.
 
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the habit of the church of Rome, putting the literal, in the place of the spiritual, she has destroyed the intimacy which God intended between Himself and his followers. The church of Rome has established a literal priesthood upon which her people are dependent for the forgiveness of their sins. Her adherents are required to confess their sins to their priest that he might grant them God's forgiveness. Again, the church of Rome separates its adherents from God by substituting Christ’s Priestly ministry with its own literal one. This again also, establishes itself in a position of authority over all who accept her dogmas. What can be more intimate than asking for, and receiving forgiveness from a loved one? Even this is denied those who accept the intercession of Rome.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Why would anyone who has direct access to the throne of God, and an invitation from God himself to go there whenever they need to, seek intercession from another sinful and fallible human being. Jesus Christ is our High Priest. By His blood we may all enter in through the veil into the holiest, where Christ ever liveth to make intercession for us. This was accomplished through his flesh, verse 20. His flesh was our flesh, He became one of us, so we could enter into the holiest and have direct access to the throne of God. We no longer need anyone between us and God the Father. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Him (Joh 14:6). He presented his body a living sacrifice unto God that we might be able to follow in his footsteps, because His body was our body, and His flesh was our flesh.

The primary role of the priesthood during the old covenant was to officiate the sacrifice. This role has been taken from humanity and established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the true Sacrifice. The sacrifice of the new covenant believer is clearly pointed out by the Apostle Paul.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Christ has prepared the way, that we may give our own selves as living and holy sacrifices unto God. This is our spiritual service of worship in the new covenant. These things Christ has accomplished by becoming one of us. Now, what person can officiate between the individual and God, when all have been given the power to present themselves directly to God as a living and holy sacrifice. This is what has been granted to all through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He has established a close and personal relationship with God for each and every individual who cares to accept such. There is no need for the priesthood of the church of Rome or any other than that of Christ Himself. The priesthood of the new covenant on earth is Christ’s church or body as Peter whom the Church of Rome contends was their first Pope, has taught. The ministry of which is to introduce all to Jesus Christ our High Priest through whom we all have access to the Father (Heb 8:1&2, Eph 2:11-22).

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likenessof his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If by faith, I have died with Christ, I am freed from my sin. I personally have been empowered to do this thing by faith, and so has anyone else who cares to accept it. How says the church of Rome that I need a priest, that is, another sinful human being to officiate between God and I? Why would the church of Rome nullify the grace of God? Why does she wish to take this gift away from humanity, which was given at such infinite cost? The answer is clear, she seeks power over the world that has not been granted her from God. She seeks to be in the place of God. This is the original sin of Satan himself (Isa. 14: 12-15). These things will be discussed in greater detail, in following chapters.

The setting up of a literal priesthood by the church of Rome, separates those who believe her from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the true High Priest of the new covenant. As always, it establishes her in a position of authority between man and God over all that submit to her usurped authority. This is the true nature of the church of Rome. Her dogmas serve the purpose of separating humanity from their God, and only hope of salvation. All this she does, while claiming to be the one and only original church of Christ on earth. She is the church which Satan himself has set up to supplant the true church of Christ, and separate humanity from their God.


                                      CHAP. 4 THE MAN OF SIN

II Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Before the Lord returns, the man of sin will be revealed. This man of sin sits himself in the temple of God, claiming the power and authority of God. Where is this temple of God, that the man of sin sits in? The sanctuary, or temple of the new covenant is found in one of two places. There is the sanctuary or temple in heaven where Christ now intercedes for us before His Father, and there is also the new covenant sanctuary or temple that is established in Christ's followers. The Church or body of Christ, both in its individual members and as a corporate entity, is considered the temple of God. So, the man of sin must try to set himself up in at least one, if not both of these places. It is by doing this, that he reveals himself for what he is. Notice the following.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


As has already been discussed in the previous chapter, the church of Rome has established a literal earthly priesthood, where her adherents go to seek the forgiveness of their sins. By doing so she has put herself in the place of God, that is to say, in the temple of God. It is the very ministry of Christ on behalf of his own in the heavenly sanctuary, that has been replaced by the church of Rome with mere men here on earth. At their head is the one man who claims to be in the place of Christ here on earth, and who supposedly gives the power to forgive sins to these other men that serve him. This man is the Pope, and he is verily the man of sin.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the personal leader of the individual believer, and the corporate body of his church. The Lord Jesus Christ himself personally intercedes on behalf of the believer, and at the believers request for the forgiveness of our sins. It is the Lord Jesus Christ also who personally imparts His Holy Spirit to the believer, that Christ may dwell within them, receiving the spiritual body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. These ministries are performed by Christ personally on behalf of the believer from the heavenly sanctuary or temple where Christ now resides. It is these very ministries that the Church of Rome has tried to replace with the confession to earthly priests, transubstantiation of their Communion, and the exaltation of the Pope of Rome as the universal head of the church. By doing such, the Pope of the Church of Rome, has set himslef up in the temple of God as though he was God. Since he claims the authority for himself and his church to perform the ministries which God alone can perform in and through his Son Jesus Christ who is God, " he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Let us examine some more prophetic scriptures in regard to the topic at hand.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

That the above prophecy is in reference to Rome, and more specifically the church of Rome, can be easily deduced by an examination of Daniel chapter 8. There are three earthly powers, or kingdoms that the prophecies of Daniel 8 address. One is represented by the ram, the next by the goat, and the last by the little horn coming out of one of the four horns of the goat. Verses twenty and twenty one tell us that the ram is a symbol of the Medo-Persian empire, and the goat is a symbol of the Grecian, or Greek empire. Rome was the next major kingdom or power to emerge in historical succession after the Grecian empire. Certain aspects of the above prophecy have been fulfilled by pagan and or papal Rome, and are in direct reference to the things which we have been discussing.

Verse eleven points out that this power magnifies itself even to the prince of the host. This prince of the host is referred to in verse twenty five as the Prince of princes, and is no doubt a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Further examination will only strengthen this point. Verse eleven goes on to say that the daily sacrifice was taken away by this power, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. The daily sacrifice in the earthly sanctuary of the Jews was all about the forgiveness of their sins. However, the place of this sanctuary was cast down. Since verse eleven begins with a clear reference to Christ, we will assume that the sanctuary referred to is none other than the heavenly sanctuary which Christ himself is the priest of. As has already been pointed out, the church of Rome has attempted to replace Christ's intercession for his people by setting up an earthly priesthood to supplant the heavenly priesthood of the living Christ. In this way she has taken away the daily sacrifice of the new covenant. This is also why the sanctuary is said to be cast down. The sanctuary of the new covenant being in heaven, it was literally cast down by the church of Rome attempting to remove its ministry from heaven and replace here on earth through themselves. Of course this was to establish themselves in a position of power, God's power.

Verse twelve points out that a host was given him against the daily sacrifice. This is true in as much as the church of Rome became the established religion of the Roman empire. All the subjects of Rome having become members of the church of Rome, and therefore the subjects of this earthly and apostate priesthood which she had set up. Verse twelve also points out that the truth was cast down to the ground, and as a result the church of Rome, practiced, and prospered. The truth that was cast down to the ground was the very truth that we are discussing. By replacing this truth with their own earthly priesthood, and gaining so many followers through the power of the state, the church of Rome practiced and prospered.

Verse fourteen points out that these lies and deceptions regarding the sanctuary, will end or be exposed after the 2300 days with the cleansing of the sanctuary. At the end of this period, the sanctuary shall be cleansed and the truth of Christ’s High Priestly ministry would be revived and exalted. It is not the intention of the writer to thoroughly address the 2300 day prophecy accepting in respect to the casting down of the truth to the ground. There are already many books written on this subject which the reader should study for themselves. The Seventh Day Adventist church contends that the 2300 day prophecy ended in 1844. At this time the sanctuary in heaven was to be cleansed, signifying the judgment of all before the return of Christ. Unquestionably, since 1844 the prophecy of the 2300 days has been brought to the forefront by many, and shortly thereafter the Seventh Day Adventist church has been proclaiming a message to the world regarding the truths of the heavenly sanctuary. This message clearly points out that Christ is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. To be sure then, this truth that was cast down to the ground by the church of Rome, has been revived by the Seventh Day Adventist’s and their forerunners since the year 1844. Although Protestant reformers knew about Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, no denomination has brought it to the forefront in all the world as the SDA church has. The writer believes this to be a direct fulfillment of the prophecy at hand concerning the casting down of the truth to the ground.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

When the Jews fulfilled the seventy weeks determined upon them during the 2300 day prophecy in rejecting their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, their house (temple) was left unto them desolate as our Lord proclaimed. They rejected the intercession of the only High Priest that could truly save them, in favor of the priesthood which was only a type of Him in whom all the fulness of God dwelt. The earthly temple was destroyed not long after this rejection by the armies of pagan Rome.

Lk 13:31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

When certain “Christians” apostatized to the point of replacing Jesus Christ as the High Priest of this new covenant era, they likewise rejected the intercession of their Lord and Savior. They accepted the false priesthood of the Pope and his priests over Christ and His true church. Their spiritual house (temple) was left unto them desolate. The Spirit of God was removed from them, which they replaced with the power of the state. The convicting power of the Holy Spirit of God was replaced by the civil power of the state through coercion and force. All were declared “Christians” and commanded to submit to the Church of Rome. Thus the new covenant truth of Christ’s intercession as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary was cast down to the earth by the armies of papal Rome.

« Last Edit: Sat Nov 09, 2019 - 11:27:38 by Amo »

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #11 on: Sat Nov 09, 2019 - 12:01:16 »
Well there you go...  you posted the quotes from your own bible - proving that we don’t have nor do we use the same Bible. 

You just want there to be 3 kingdoms represented in Daniel 8 - where the Bible only says that there are two - so your prophet will be true IN YOUR MIND. 


Wrong. There are three kingdoms or powers depicted in Dan. 8, each exceeding the power and greatness of the one preceding them. Only two of them are depicted as animals, the third is not, which corrolates to the fourth beast of Dan. 7. It also is not described as an existing animal though the previous three are. Which prophecy also speaks of a little horn tying it to the third power of Dan 8 as well.

Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

We have the same bibles, you just don't want there to be a third power or kingdom. So be it. Perhaps the following can help.


                                    CHAP.  3 THE PRIESTHOOD

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

According to the Apostle Peter, those who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, are a royal and holy priesthood. Each member of the body of Christ is an ambassador for Christ. Using whatever gifts of the Spirit that God gives them to bring people to a knowledge of God by introducing them to His Son, who is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). Unlike the priests of the old covenant who stood as a type of Christ, mediating if you will between humanity and God, new covenant believers introduce the world to the one and only true mediator between man and God. The literal priesthood of the old covenant has been abolished by Christ in favor of the spiritual priesthood of the new covenant.

The old covenant believer was dependent upon a literal human being and place to receive forgiveness of sins. The new covenant believer however, after being introduced to the Lord Jesus Christ our High Priest who ever liveth to intercede for us, can receive forgiveness for sins at any time and in any place ( Jn 4: 19-24). The new covenant believer has no need for a human go between, but has been given direct access to the throne of God in and through the ministration of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Each believer may now come boldly before the throne of God with their prayers and confessions, entreating the mercies of our loving God. This is among the most precious promises of the new testament scriptures.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


The Lord Jesus Christ came to earth and became one of us, so that we could each have a close and personal relationship with Him and his Father in heaven. The Devil has ever sought to separate humanity from God. With the cooperation of our first parents he succeeded in the garden. Ever since, God has been seeking to bring us back, and Satan has been seeking to keep us apart. Jesus came to draw all humanity to the Father. Through His intercession humanity has been given the opportunity of a direct personal relationship with the Father, which none can hinder save ourselves.
 
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the habit of the church of Rome, putting the literal, in the place of the spiritual, she has destroyed the intimacy which God intended between Himself and his followers. The church of Rome has established a literal priesthood upon which her people are dependent for the forgiveness of their sins. Her adherents are required to confess their sins to their priest that he might grant them God's forgiveness. Again, the church of Rome separates its adherents from God by substituting Christ’s Priestly ministry with its own literal one. This again also, establishes itself in a position of authority over all who accept her dogmas. What can be more intimate than asking for, and receiving forgiveness from a loved one? Even this is denied those who accept the intercession of Rome.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Why would anyone who has direct access to the throne of God, and an invitation from God himself to go there whenever they need to, seek intercession from another sinful and fallible human being. Jesus Christ is our High Priest. By His blood we may all enter in through the veil into the holiest, where Christ ever liveth to make intercession for us. This was accomplished through his flesh, verse 20. His flesh was our flesh, He became one of us, so we could enter into the holiest and have direct access to the throne of God. We no longer need anyone between us and God the Father. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Him (Joh 14:6). He presented his body a living sacrifice unto God that we might be able to follow in his footsteps, because His body was our body, and His flesh was our flesh.

The primary role of the priesthood during the old covenant was to officiate the sacrifice. This role has been taken from humanity and established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the true Sacrifice. The sacrifice of the new covenant believer is clearly pointed out by the Apostle Paul.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Christ has prepared the way, that we may give our own selves as living and holy sacrifices unto God. This is our spiritual service of worship in the new covenant. These things Christ has accomplished by becoming one of us. Now, what person can officiate between the individual and God, when all have been given the power to present themselves directly to God as a living and holy sacrifice. This is what has been granted to all through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He has established a close and personal relationship with God for each and every individual who cares to accept such. There is no need for the priesthood of the church of Rome or any other than that of Christ Himself. The priesthood of the new covenant on earth is Christ’s church or body as Peter whom the Church of Rome contends was their first Pope, has taught. The ministry of which is to introduce all to Jesus Christ our High Priest through whom we all have access to the Father (Heb 8:1&2, Eph 2:11-22).

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likenessof his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If by faith, I have died with Christ, I am freed from my sin. I personally have been empowered to do this thing by faith, and so has anyone else who cares to accept it. How says the church of Rome that I need a priest, that is, another sinful human being to officiate between God and I? Why would the church of Rome nullify the grace of God? Why does she wish to take this gift away from humanity, which was given at such infinite cost? The answer is clear, she seeks power over the world that has not been granted her from God. She seeks to be in the place of God. This is the original sin of Satan himself (Isa. 14: 12-15). These things will be discussed in greater detail, in following chapters.

The setting up of a literal priesthood by the church of Rome, separates those who believe her from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the true High Priest of the new covenant. As always, it establishes her in a position of authority between man and God over all that submit to her usurped authority. This is the true nature of the church of Rome. Her dogmas serve the purpose of separating humanity from their God, and only hope of salvation. All this she does, while claiming to be the one and only original church of Christ on earth. She is the church which Satan himself has set up to supplant the true church of Christ, and separate humanity from their God.


                                      CHAP. 4 THE MAN OF SIN

II Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Before the Lord returns, the man of sin will be revealed. This man of sin sits himself in the temple of God, claiming the power and authority of God. Where is this temple of God, that the man of sin sits in? The sanctuary, or temple of the new covenant is found in one of two places. There is the sanctuary or temple in heaven where Christ now intercedes for us before His Father, and there is also the new covenant sanctuary or temple that is established in Christ's followers. The Church or body of Christ, both in its individual members and as a corporate entity, is considered the temple of God. So, the man of sin must try to set himself up in at least one, if not both of these places. It is by doing this, that he reveals himself for what he is. Notice the following.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


As has already been discussed in the previous chapter, the church of Rome has established a literal earthly priesthood, where her adherents go to seek the forgiveness of their sins. By doing so she has put herself in the place of God, that is to say, in the temple of God. It is the very ministry of Christ on behalf of his own in the heavenly sanctuary, that has been replaced by the church of Rome with mere men here on earth. At their head is the one man who claims to be in the place of Christ here on earth, and who supposedly gives the power to forgive sins to these other men that serve him. This man is the Pope, and he is verily the man of sin.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the personal leader of the individual believer, and the corporate body of his church. The Lord Jesus Christ himself personally intercedes on behalf of the believer, and at the believers request for the forgiveness of our sins. It is the Lord Jesus Christ also who personally imparts His Holy Spirit to the believer, that Christ may dwell within them, receiving the spiritual body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. These ministries are performed by Christ personally on behalf of the believer from the heavenly sanctuary or temple where Christ now resides. It is these very ministries that the Church of Rome has tried to replace with the confession to earthly priests, transubstantiation of their Communion, and the exaltation of the Pope of Rome as the universal head of the church. By doing such, the Pope of the Church of Rome, has set himslef up in the temple of God as though he was God. Since he claims the authority for himself and his church to perform the ministries which God alone can perform in and through his Son Jesus Christ who is God, " he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Let us examine some more prophetic scriptures in regard to the topic at hand.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

That the above prophecy is in reference to Rome, and more specifically the church of Rome, can be easily deduced by an examination of Daniel chapter 8. There are three earthly powers, or kingdoms that the prophecies of Daniel 8 address. One is represented by the ram, the next by the goat, and the last by the little horn coming out of one of the four horns of the goat. Verses twenty and twenty one tell us that the ram is a symbol of the Medo-Persian empire, and the goat is a symbol of the Grecian, or Greek empire. Rome was the next major kingdom or power to emerge in historical succession after the Grecian empire. Certain aspects of the above prophecy have been fulfilled by pagan and or papal Rome, and are in direct reference to the things which we have been discussing.

Verse eleven points out that this power magnifies itself even to the prince of the host. This prince of the host is referred to in verse twenty five as the Prince of princes, and is no doubt a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Further examination will only strengthen this point. Verse eleven goes on to say that the daily sacrifice was taken away by this power, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. The daily sacrifice in the earthly sanctuary of the Jews was all about the forgiveness of their sins. However, the place of this sanctuary was cast down. Since verse eleven begins with a clear reference to Christ, we will assume that the sanctuary referred to is none other than the heavenly sanctuary which Christ himself is the priest of. As has already been pointed out, the church of Rome has attempted to replace Christ's intercession for his people by setting up an earthly priesthood to supplant the heavenly priesthood of the living Christ. In this way she has taken away the daily sacrifice of the new covenant. This is also why the sanctuary is said to be cast down. The sanctuary of the new covenant being in heaven, it was literally cast down by the church of Rome attempting to remove its ministry from heaven and replace here on earth through themselves. Of course this was to establish themselves in a position of power, God's power.

Verse twelve points out that a host was given him against the daily sacrifice. This is true in as much as the church of Rome became the established religion of the Roman empire. All the subjects of Rome having become members of the church of Rome, and therefore the subjects of this earthly and apostate priesthood which she had set up. Verse twelve also points out that the truth was cast down to the ground, and as a result the church of Rome, practiced, and prospered. The truth that was cast down to the ground was the very truth that we are discussing. By replacing this truth with their own earthly priesthood, and gaining so many followers through the power of the state, the church of Rome practiced and prospered.

Verse fourteen points out that these lies and deceptions regarding the sanctuary, will end or be exposed after the 2300 days with the cleansing of the sanctuary. At the end of this period, the sanctuary shall be cleansed and the truth of Christ’s High Priestly ministry would be revived and exalted. It is not the intention of the writer to thoroughly address the 2300 day prophecy accepting in respect to the casting down of the truth to the ground. There are already many books written on this subject which the reader should study for themselves. The Seventh Day Adventist church contends that the 2300 day prophecy ended in 1844. At this time the sanctuary in heaven was to be cleansed, signifying the judgment of all before the return of Christ. Unquestionably, since 1844 the prophecy of the 2300 days has been brought to the forefront by many, and shortly thereafter the Seventh Day Adventist church has been proclaiming a message to the world regarding the truths of the heavenly sanctuary. This message clearly points out that Christ is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. To be sure then, this truth that was cast down to the ground by the church of Rome, has been revived by the Seventh Day Adventist’s and their forerunners since the year 1844. Although Protestant reformers knew about Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, no denomination has brought it to the forefront in all the world as the SDA church has. The writer believes this to be a direct fulfillment of the prophecy at hand concerning the casting down of the truth to the ground.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

When the Jews fulfilled the seventy weeks determined upon them during the 2300 day prophecy in rejecting their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, their house (temple) was left unto them desolate as our Lord proclaimed. They rejected the intercession of the only High Priest that could truly save them, in favor of the priesthood which was only a type of Him in whom all the fulness of God dwelt. The earthly temple was destroyed not long after this rejection by the armies of pagan Rome.

Lk 13:31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

When certain “Christians” apostatized to the point of replacing Jesus Christ as the High Priest of this new covenant era, they likewise rejected the intercession of their Lord and Savior. They accepted the false priesthood of the Pope and his priests over Christ and His true church. Their spiritual house (temple) was left unto them desolate. The Spirit of God was removed from them, which they replaced with the power of the state. The convicting power of the Holy Spirit of God was replaced by the civil power of the state through coercion and force. All were declared “Christians” and commanded to submit to the Church of Rome. Thus the new covenant truth of Christ’s intercession as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary was cast down to the earth by the armies of papal Rome.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #12 on: Sat Nov 09, 2019 - 14:41:54 »
Well there you go...  you posted the quotes from your own bible - proving that we don’t have nor do we use the same Bible. 

You just want there to be 3 kingdoms represented in Daniel 8 - where the Bible only says that there are two - so your prophet will be true IN YOUR MIND.

All the scripture shared in my last post was from the KJV. I don't know what other bible you are referring to.

Offline current occupant2

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #13 on: Sat Nov 09, 2019 - 21:30:30 »
None of my Bibles have chapter headings such as the ones you posted from your bibles.


All the scripture shared in my last post was from the KJV. I don't know what other bible you are referring to.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #14 on: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 08:28:43 »
None of my Bibles have chapter headings such as the ones you posted from your bibles.

More twisting the words of others I see. You know the chapters from the book quoted are not the bible, nor are they passed off as scripture in any way shape or form. They are an examination of scriptures clearly identified and separated from the author's words in the writing itself. If you were to write what you believed regarding the same, none would think it was or call it scripture. You obviously choose not to believe that which has been postulated by many throughout Christian history regarding the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. So be it. No need to once again resort to twisting other peoples words or intent into that which they never intended. The chapters quoted are not presented as scripture but rather the examination of prophetic scripture, and suggested interpretation of the same. So what do you say the little horn power is CO2? I won't accuse you of making your own scriptures in explaining such. 
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 08:31:14 by Amo »

Offline current occupant2

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #15 on: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 09:45:10 »
Why didn’t you credit your sources for what you NOW say is not bible sourced?

PLEASE identify your sources for your infallible interpretation of scripture. 



More twisting the words of others I see. You know the chapters from the book quoted are not the bible, nor are they passed off as scripture in any way shape or form. They are an examination of scriptures clearly identified and separated from the author's words in the writing itself. If you were to write what you believed regarding the same, none would think it was or call it scripture. You obviously choose not to believe that which has been postulated by many throughout Christian history regarding the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. So be it. No need to once again resort to twisting other peoples words or intent into that which they never intended. The chapters quoted are not presented as scripture but rather the examination of prophetic scripture, and suggested interpretation of the same. So what do you say the little horn power is CO2? I won't accuse you of making your own scriptures in explaining such.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #16 on: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 19:26:31 »
Why didn’t you credit your sources for what you NOW say is not bible sourced?

PLEASE identify your sources for your infallible interpretation of scripture.

Who said anything about infallible interpretation? I always quote sources where other sources have been used. If there are no sources quoted, then none need be quoted.

Offline current occupant2

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #17 on: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 21:39:36 »
You have not listed any book or author names for the material you now admit is not from the Bible. 

What is the name of the book and the name of the author from which the material under the headings ‘Chapter 3’ and ‘Chapter 4’ are derived. 

Until you provide that information, we will consider it plagerisim just like your prophet. 


Who said anything about infallible interpretation? I always quote sources where other sources have been used. If there are no sources quoted, then none need be quoted.

Offline Amo

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Re: What happened?
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 20:42:55 »
You have not listed any book or author names for the material you now admit is not from the Bible. 

What is the name of the book and the name of the author from which the material under the headings ‘Chapter 3’ and ‘Chapter 4’ are derived. 

Until you provide that information, we will consider it plagerisim just like your prophet.

Christ and Rome, I am the author. I did not present the chapters as scripture, this is only in your twisted mind. The scriptures within are clearly referenced.