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Offline soterion

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #210 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 08:42:57 »
Now you are trying to require a direct link between understanding something and believing it, as if understanding has to result in believing. That is total nonsense. I mean, really? You are asking why some folks don't believe?

No Soterion. You must try to take my statements in the context of what I posted. Here's the entirety of my post:

Very well then. So, you are saying that these scriptures were written and they can be understood as written. I would agree in the sense that, they were written in human language and words understood by man. For example, Paul wrote,

1 Cor. 15
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

I could agree that this scriptures is understandable to both the Christian and non-Christian. Why then not both believe, if at all both can understand? You might say, it's a matter of the heart. I agree. For indeed, it is with the heart one believes. So, even while the things of the Spirit of God had been written in scriptures in words understood by man, it is not through the understanding that comes by the wisdom of man. As, Paul said, to the natural man, these things are foolishness to him. This is because he judges and sees them through the lens of his human wisdom. He cannot know them. And Paul tells us why ~ because they are spiritually discerned.

You see, the point I'm making is that, while the things of the Spirit of God were written in scriptures and in human language and words, so that man is able to read and understand them, this understanding, that is, through the lens of human wisdom will lead the man to see them as foolishness and so does not receive them. And that, with this understanding, he cannot know them.

I already know what you are saying.

You are saying that the Holy Spirit gave to the writers of scripture the understanding so as to write the things of the Spirit in a language and context that can be read and understood by those who read, but then those written things cannot be actually be understood unless the reader, each and every one, "has the Spirit."

It basically means that each reader has to have some inspiration of the Spirit so as to understand scripture. You keep denying that, but if a person has to "have the Spirit" (something you have been unable to define), then it means the Spirit is doing something to bring about understanding of scripture for that reader. That is called inspiration.

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Here's one that you did not address:

May I ask, even now as a believer already, had you not, even once prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit's help in this regard?

Ever since I learned the truth in this regard, no, I do not ask for such. I know the onus is on me to study.

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Had you asked yourself why Paul prayed as such, even for the Christian:

Ephesians 1
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Already addressed. Reply #3.

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Of course I addressed your concern in Reply #145. You didn't just see it perhaps. I cited two scriptures which tells us two truths concerning the natural man: 1) that he CANNOT receive the Spirit of truth; 2) that he CANNOT know the things of the Spirit.  The corresponding reasons why, are also stated in the respective verses.

Apparently, you seem to not acknowledge and accept these truths, and even seem to make the argument that, to accept such is putting the blame for a person's disbelief in Christ on the Spirit, and not on the person. I said in Reply #145:

It never came to mind, nor had I ever had the thought of thinking that if one continues in disbelief, that it's the Spirit's fault. But this is what is in my mind and heart: I give the glory to the Holy Spirit for His work in bringing people to come to repentance and believe in Jesus Christ.

Is God beholden to sinful man, or anyone for that matter, that you have that thought and make such an argument out of it? When God hardens some, is He unrighteous? Of course not. If God have chosen some to save and be His people, is He unrighteous? Of course not. Is He unjust? Of course not. Is He unfair? Of course not.

Well, it may have never come to your mind to blame God if a person continues in disbelief, but it is nevertheless true that this is what you inadvertently teach, going by what you believe about the work of the Spirit. Also, your words about God not being beholden to man and having the right to save some and harden others, this just reinforces your inadvertent position.

However, the problem is that you are still misinterpreting what is meant by "the natural man" and "he that is spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 2. That misinterpretation leads to your erroneous views of how the Spirit works to bring about understanding of God's will as presented in scripture.

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Now, on the two things you say here in your post which you think I believe:

1. It takes some direct working of the Spirit upon a person before that person can understand scripture.

That is not quite right. What I believe is that it takes the Spirit to understand the things of the Spirit of God, even in scriptures.

2. It takes some direct working of the Spirit upon a person before that person can understand and believe the gospel unto salvation.

That is not quite right. What I believe is that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the person of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement, that is able to move the person unto repentance and believes in Jesus Christ.

In other words, my two points about what you believe are correct. Going by the sum of what you have posted here in this thread, I am dead on with what you believe.

It boils down to some direct working of the Spirit upon a person before that person can properly understand the gospel message and scripture unto acceptance and faith.

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #210 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 08:42:57 »

Online RB

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #211 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 14:33:43 »
RB,
I haven't been able to really understand your views on the Trinity.  At least what you say concerning the identities of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit do not line up with the more typical views of the Trinity as three separate and distinct spiritual beings who are, as proclaimed by Jesus, all one.  Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you view the Trinity as simply three separate spiritual functions, not three separate spiritual beings.  But I do not think that can really explain the Trinity as presented in Scripture.

Brother, I may PM you sometime this week or start a thread so that I will not hijack this one. My understanding is MUCH IN LINE not with the Calvinist view which is nothing more than Catholicism. I'm in line more with Adam Clark's understanding who was a Methodist ~google his work on Hebrews chapter one and read it. Also, Gilbert Bebe, a hardshell Baptist whose work is excellent on this subject: "The INCARNATE SONSHIP vss the eternal Sonship"~ two exceptional solid work on the subject. Many CoC ministers believes as I see it, or I see it as they believe which would be more of a humble confession.  Also, Michael Servetus' dying confession would be my confession. Google it and consider.
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Servetus always rejected calling Christ the "eternal Son of God" but rather called him "the Son of the eternal God."
Now, that does not mean that I hold to his overall views~and I really do not know them since his works were burned with him so history records...which mean that we truly do not know. 

Glad to be back. RB
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 14:43:19 by RB »

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #211 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 14:33:43 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #212 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 15:13:29 »
I will await your PM or a new topic on this subject.

And glad to have you back in town  -- SherryLB  --   ::smile::

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #212 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 15:13:29 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #213 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 15:39:14 »

Glad to be back. RB

Welcome back, RB. ::smile::

Hope your vacation was all you hoped it would be.

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #213 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 15:39:14 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #214 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 21:29:36 »
I already know what you are saying.

You are saying that the Holy Spirit gave to the writers of scripture the understanding so as to write the things of the Spirit in a language and context that can be read and understood by those who read, but then those written things cannot be actually be understood unless the reader, each and every one, "has the Spirit."

It basically means that each reader has to have some inspiration of the Spirit so as to understand scripture. You keep denying that, but if a person has to "have the Spirit" (something you have been unable to define), then it means the Spirit is doing something to bring about understanding of scripture for that reader. That is called inspiration.

Apparently, you really do not. For you take what I am saying out of context. You are a bit confused. So, let me clear up things for you. What I am saying, relative to our discussion under this thread is:

With regards 1 Cor. 2:14, where Paul says "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The "natural man" is one who is not a Christian. He is one who can't discern spiritually. He is the typical man, who, by nature is a child of wrath, dead in trespasses and sins. He is one who is unspiritual and carnal. He could have an understanding of scriptures, though only through the lens of human wisdom, which leads him to see them as foolishness and so does not receive them. And with such, he cannot know them.  For him to be able to see and perceive the things of the Spirit of God, so that he can receive and know them, there is need for divine intervention, that is, by the Holy Spirit.

Now, the Holy Spirit is He who convicts one of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement. It is He who works in the hearts of men, chosen according to the election of grace, and bring them to repentance unto believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe, the Holy Spirit indwells them, and enables them to see and discern the things of the Spirit of God revealed and written out in scriptures.

Quote
Quote
Here's one that you did not address:

May I ask, even now as a believer already, had you not, even once prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit's help in this regard?

Had you asked yourself why Paul prayed as such, even for the Christian:

Ephesians 1
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Ever since I learned the truth in this regard, no, I do not ask for such. I know the onus is on me to study.

Now I can understand why you are so against what I am saying about the need of the Holy Spirit's help with regards the matter of understanding scriptures. You don't believe that you need His help on this and believe that you, by your own ability, you can by yourself, study and know the things of the Spirit of God written in scriptures.

So, you don't say Amen to Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1 for the Christians in Ephesus. And by that, you are like saying that there is no need that God give you nor the Christian, the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, and no need for the eyes of your and the Christian's understanding being enlightened.

On my part, even as I diligently read and study God's words in scriptures, I say Amen to Paul's prayer. For I believe that I need the Holy Spirit's help on this. And I now pray for you, that God, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened on this matter.

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Of course I addressed your concern in Reply #145. You didn't just see it perhaps. I cited two scriptures which tells us two truths concerning the natural man: 1) that he CANNOT receive the Spirit of truth; 2) that he CANNOT know the things of the Spirit.  The corresponding reasons why, are also stated in the respective verses.

Apparently, you seem to not acknowledge and accept these truths, and even seem to make the argument that, to accept such is putting the blame for a person's disbelief in Christ on the Spirit, and not on the person. I said in Reply #145:

It never came to mind, nor had I ever had the thought of thinking that if one continues in disbelief, that it's the Spirit's fault. But this is what is in my mind and heart: I give the glory to the Holy Spirit for His work in bringing people to come to repentance and believe in Jesus Christ.

Is God beholden to sinful man, or anyone for that matter, that you have that thought and make such an argument out of it? When God hardens some, is He unrighteous? Of course not. If God have chosen some to save and be His people, is He unrighteous? Of course not. Is He unjust? Of course not. Is He unfair? Of course not.

Well, it may have never come to your mind to blame God if a person continues in disbelief, but it is nevertheless true that this is what you inadvertently teach, going by what you believe about the work of the Spirit. Also, your words about God not being beholden to man and having the right to save some and harden others, this just reinforces your inadvertent position.

However, the problem is that you are still misinterpreting what is meant by "the natural man" and "he that is spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 2. That misinterpretation leads to your erroneous views of how the Spirit works to bring about understanding of God's will as presented in scripture.

I don't teach what you think it is you say I teach. I would say that you are just confused and had mixed up what I was saying in all my post under this thread.

And with regards the "natural man" in 1 Cor.2:14, I could say the same thing to you, that it is you who is misinterpreting as to whom Paul refers to by "natural man".

Quote
Quote
Now, on the two things you say here in your post which you think I believe:

1. It takes some direct working of the Spirit upon a person before that person can understand scripture.

That is not quite right. What I believe is that it takes the Spirit to understand the things of the Spirit of God, even in scriptures.

2. It takes some direct working of the Spirit upon a person before that person can understand and believe the gospel unto salvation.

That is not quite right. What I believe is that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the person of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement, that is able to move the person unto repentance and believes in Jesus Christ.

In other words, my two points about what you believe are correct. Going by the sum of what you have posted here in this thread, I am dead on with what you believe.

It boils down to some direct working of the Spirit upon a person before that person can properly understand the gospel message and scripture unto acceptance and faith.

In other words, you don't want to accept that what I believe is not quite what you say it is that I believe. And going by what you have posted here in this thread in response to my posts, you are dead off with what I believe.

Yes, it boils down to some working of the Spirit upon a person, for the person to be able to see and perceive the things of the Spirit of God, even Jesus Christ. Whether that is a direct or indirect working, is out of the point. 

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #214 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 21:29:36 »



Offline soterion

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #215 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 21:35:49 »
You are confused, Michael.

You keep affirming what you say you deny, even in that last post. You keep denying the conclusions that have to be drawn from your own words.

I really don't think you know what you believe.

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #215 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 21:35:49 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #216 on: Yesterday at 11:36:43 »
Yes, the Hebrews were doing things which God didn't want them to do, i.e., transgressions and sins. That has not changed. Sin is lawlessness (1John 3:4).  That hasn't changed. When we disobey, a punishment is prescribed. But the law is still intact.  Murder is still murder.  Stealing is still stealing.  Those are sins and there is a punishment to be meted out.   What has changed is how one obtains forgiveness for those sins and how the punishment is carried out.
It's not vague.  We know precisely what the sin was that prompted it.  The law was added because the flock that came out of Egypt had the audacity to cast an idol literally at the foot of Mt Sinai.

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #217 on: Yesterday at 11:47:42 »
It's not vague.  We know precisely what the sin was that prompted it.  The law was added because the flock that came out of Egypt had the audacity to cast an idol literally at the foot of Mt Sinai.

Jarrod
I suspect that had they not built the idol the law would have still been given since it was not limited to the question of idols.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #218 on: Yesterday at 22:09:25 »
I suspect that had they not built the idol the law would have still been given since it was not limited to the question of idols.
How narrow or broad is that?  When you say law, are you talking about the 10 commandments? the covenant terms? or entire judicial system?  the priesthood?

The 10 commandments were probably inevitable.  Traces of them can be found even before the history records them.  The system of judges and the priesthood probably wouldn't have existed in the same form.

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Re: Divine Revelation
« Reply #218 on: Yesterday at 22:09:25 »

 

     
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