GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Do toddlers sin?  (Read 2615 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5821
  • Manna: 117
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Nov 01, 2018 - 09:26:35 »
The Hebrew word used in Psalm 51:6 that the NIV translates as womb is tuhôt (Strong's 2910). The Hebrew word for womb is beten (Strong's 990).

The former word is defined by The Complete Word Study: Old Testament as "A feminine plural noun indicating an inward part, the inner being. It refers to a person's moral consciousness (Ps. 51:6[8]); the ability to perceive right and wrong or discern wisely (Job 38:36)."

Try again. ::smile::

Let me repeat:
"Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place."

I made it bold and underlined it.
The word "me", does that refer to David or his parent(s)?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Nov 01, 2018 - 09:26:35 »

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3986
  • Manna: 145
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Nov 01, 2018 - 14:39:21 »
Let me repeat:
"Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place."

I made it bold and underlined it.
The word "me", does that refer to David or his parent(s)?

The whole Psalm is about David and his sin with Bathsheba. Chronologically, I place the Psalm right after he was confronted by Nathan the Prophet.

None of that changes the fact that verse 5 points to some situation or circumstance is David's conception/birth, and is not directly about his sin that he is confessing in the Psalm. I don't see verse 6 changing any of that.

Nothing in the Psalm can reasonably be used to teach that little kids are sinners.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Nov 01, 2018 - 14:39:21 »

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6395
  • Manna: 62
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #107 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 21:21:39 »
Soterion,
Agreed.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #107 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 21:21:39 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #108 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 02:25:13 »
The topic of this post is: Do toddlers sin?
The answer is: Yes


I have to agree.

I think many here had somehow explained why. But let me give my share on that.

Consider the light shed by the following scriptures:

Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. 13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

In verse 12, Paul was telling us the truth and fact of the matter that through one man, that is, Adam, sin entered the world, the world that God created including mankind. And so it goes, death through sin, affecting and infecting the world, including all men.

Paul tells us, with reference to the law of Moses (that given by God to the people He'd chosen, the Israelites, under covenant), that even before the law was given, the law that imputes sin to the transgressor, sin was in the world. The fact spoken in verse 13 is that sin was in the world. What sin? As one have put it, sin is "missing the mark". What mark, but that, of what is good. All things, be it intentional or not, that misses the mark, is what sin is.

So, we get to understand that, before the law, while there was no law given to man, as that of the law of Moses, and as in the manner it was given, sin is in the world. The difference obviously is that, because there was no law then that will impute sin, sin can't be imputed, though certainly God can, but not man, for there is no law yet to base such imputation. But that at all does not mean that no one sinned. Rather, it is the exact opposite, that all sinned, even then.

Getting to my point, we all at one time lived without the law, even the Jews, as Paul was. As babes and toddlers, all men at one time lived without the law. Yet clearly, as pointed out above, amongst the babes and toddlers, as it was amongst the world, before the law was given, sin is ever there. And that even while no law imputes it to them, as most of us do not impute sin to any babe and toddler. But as you (AVZ) have clearly pointed out, imputation of sin does not erase the fact that sin was committed, even by babes and toddlers.

In Rom. 7:9, Paul said this "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." When do you think was that, if not, when Paul, being an Israelite, a Jew, was referring to his infancy and childhood? He speaks of sin "reviving" when the commandment came. That gives us the truth of the matter that sin was ever within the man (sin that dwells in the man, in the flesh), even from infancy. From infancy, man is corrupted by sin and is born a slave to it, for man is indeed of flesh. It is just a matter of time for that to be evident.

Now, going back to the law. And for what reason is the law? Paul said to Timothy, that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners. All here, I think, will agree that at some point, God's law was given to all creatures, one way or another. And that strongly suggest that we are all, by nature, fallen that is, born lawless and ungodly.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #108 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 02:25:13 »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #109 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 04:05:48 »
The topic of this post is: Do toddlers sin?
The answer is: Yes
I have to agree.
That just means that you are both wrong.


Quote from: Michael
Paul tells us, with reference to the law of Moses (that given by God to the people He'd chosen, the Israelites, under covenant), that even before the law was given, the law that imputes sin to the transgressor.....
Law doesn't impute sin.  God imputes sin.  That you don't understand that significant difference explains in part why you get so much wrong in all of this.


Quote from: Michael
So, we get to understand that, before the law, while there was no law given to man, as that of the law of Moses, and as in the manner it was given, sin is in the world. The difference obviously is that, because there was no law then that will impute sin, sin can't be imputed, though certainly God can, but not man, for there is no law yet to base such imputation. But that at all does not mean that no one sinned. Rather, it is the exact opposite, that all sinned, even then.
Sheer gobbledeegoop!!  Speaking of all those without the Law of Moses, Paul said,

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19  because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Thus God proclaims that the Gentiles [non-Jews] had law even if it was not the Law of Moses. So if that is the case then what could Paul mean by "when there is no law"?  That is the case when anyone is incapable of knowing and understanding the law, whether the Law of Moses or not.  And that is the case only with children too young to know and understand or with those mentally incapable of knowing and understanding.

Even we do not condemn or hold accountable those mentally incapable of understanding the law, either because they are too young or too feeble mentally.  Do you really think God is any less just?

Quote from: Michael
In Rom. 7:9, Paul said this "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." When do you think was that, if not, when Paul, being an Israelite, a Jew, was referring to his infancy and childhood? He speaks of sin "reviving" when the commandment came.
Nonsense.  Paul was once a live without the law precisely when he was too young to know and understand.  Once he become old enough and mature enough then he could know and understand.  It was at that time the sin entered his life.  And a better translation of verse 9 is NASB Rom 7:9  I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; Sin became alive in him and he died spiritually.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #109 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 04:05:48 »



Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #110 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 07:03:15 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 02:25:13[/size]
Quote
Quote from: AVZ on Thu Oct 25, 2018 - 20:48:32
The topic of this post is: Do toddlers sin?
The answer is: Yes
I have to agree.
That just means that you are both wrong.

No. That just means you don't agree with us, having been deceived, thinking we are wrong and you are right.

Quote
Quote from: Michael
Paul tells us, with reference to the law of Moses (that given by God to the people He'd chosen, the Israelites, under covenant), that even before the law was given, the law that imputes sin to the transgressor.....
Law doesn't impute sin.  God imputes sin.  That you don't understand that significant difference explains in part why you get so much wrong in all of this.
And that is yet another attempt to mislead the readers here, or perhaps, you again miss the point.
It's common sense that it is a "someone" that imputes sin. God is one. Moses, on the basis of the law, is another, and so too the Judges, imputes sin to whoever sins by transgressing the law. But my statement takes that as a given, the law, being the basis of imputation. That is why, Rom. 5:13 says ".... sin is not imputed when there is no law".

Anyway, my statement there is not about who imputes sin, but that, sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Quote
Quote from: Michael
So, we get to understand that, before the law, while there was no law given to man, as that of the law of Moses, and as in the manner it was given, sin is in the world. The difference obviously is that, because there was no law then that will impute sin, sin can't be imputed, though certainly God can, but not man, for there is no law yet to base such imputation. But that at all does not mean that no one sinned. Rather, it is the exact opposite, that all sinned, even then.
Sheer gobbledeegoop!!  Speaking of all those without the Law of Moses, Paul said,

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19  because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Thus God proclaims that the Gentiles [non-Jews] had law even if it was not the Law of Moses. So if that is the case then what could Paul mean by "when there is no law"?  That is the case when anyone is incapable of knowing and understanding the law, whether the Law of Moses or not.  And that is the case only with children too young to know and understand or with those mentally incapable of knowing and understanding.

Even we do not condemn or hold accountable those mentally incapable of understanding the law, either because they are too young or too feeble mentally.  Do you really think God is any less just?
Sheer gobbledeegoop only to you obviously.

Citing the scriptures above, you said "God proclaims that the Gentiles [non-Jews] had law even if it was not the Law of Moses." And that even can't be implied. What the creation manifest is not the law of God, but His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature.

Citing the scriptures above, you said "So if that is the case then what could Paul mean by "when there is no law"?  That is the case when anyone is incapable of knowing and understanding the law, whether the Law of Moses or not.  And that is the case only with children too young to know and understand or with those mentally incapable of knowing and understanding." Firstly, that is not the case. For the case is that, sin is not imputed when there is no law, not the cases you say there. And that makes the rest of what you say pointless.

The worst of that is you think you fully understand what is just and take such understanding as the standard, so that you ask "Do you really think God is any less just?" Any less just, base on what is just according to your human understanding and involving man and his ways? You really don't think that you can measure God's justice by such human standards, would you?

Try considering this. According to your sense of what is just, is killing babes and children who had not committed a wrong, just or not? Now read about the flood at Noah's time. What do you make out of God with your sense of justice? 

Quote
Quote from: Michael
In Rom. 7:9, Paul said this "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." When do you think was that, if not, when Paul, being an Israelite, a Jew, was referring to his infancy and childhood? He speaks of sin "reviving" when the commandment came.
Nonsense.  Paul was once a live without the law precisely when he was too young to know and understand.  Once he become old enough and mature enough then he could know and understand.  It was at that time the sin entered his life.  And a better translation of verse 9 is NASB Rom 7:9  I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; Sin became alive in him and he died spiritually.
Nonsense to only to you once again.

And what you say is nonsense here, you here say it yourself, "Paul was once a live without the law precisely when he was too young to know and understand." That's weird, if not crazy.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #110 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 07:03:15 »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #111 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 08:29:19 »
And that is yet another attempt to mislead the readers here, or perhaps, you again miss the point.
It's common sense that it is a "someone" that imputes sin. God is one. Moses, on the basis of the law, is another, and so too the Judges, imputes sin to whoever sins by transgressing the law. But my statement takes that as a given, the law, being the basis of imputation. That is why, Rom. 5:13 says ".... sin is not imputed when there is no law".
Only God can impute sin  --  PERIOD ! ! !  There is always law.  That is what governs society, whether it is a tribe in the middle of the Amazon or whether it is a nation the size of China.  It obviously wasn't/isn't the law of Moses; but it is law.  And that is what Paul was speaking of in Romans chapter 1; and that is why gentiles have no excuse.

Quote
.....imputes sin to whoever sins by transgressing the law. .....
That is a completely irrational statement.  An act is sin only if God ascribes, reckons, attributes the act as sin.  All that Moses did was to list and annotate those acts which God would impute as sin.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #112 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 10:45:45 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:03:15
And that is yet another attempt to mislead the readers here, or perhaps, you again miss the point.
It's common sense that it is a "someone" that imputes sin. God is one. Moses, on the basis of the law, is another, and so too the Judges, imputes sin to whoever sins by transgressing the law. But my statement takes that as a given, the law, being the basis of imputation. That is why, Rom. 5:13 says ".... sin is not imputed when there is no law".
Only God can impute sin  --  PERIOD ! ! !  There is always law.  That is what governs society, whether it is a tribe in the middle of the Amazon or whether it is a nation the size of China.  It obviously wasn't/isn't the law of Moses; but it is law.  And that is what Paul was speaking of in Romans chapter 1; and that is why gentiles have no excuse.
Yes, only God can impute sin. And when God had given the law to Moses, He had given authority to those whom He had chosen to implement the law.

There is always law, you say. But are you aware what scriptures says concerning law? Paul said "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God". You see, by the law is the knowledge of sin. So then, those who breaks the law, may become guilty. That is, sin is imputed to them.   

Quote
.....imputes sin to whoever sins by transgressing the law. .....

That is a completely irrational statement.  An act is sin only if God ascribes, reckons, attributes the act as sin.  All that Moses did was to list and annotate those acts which God would impute as sin.

Sin is more than just something that God imputes to one as sin. While transgression of law is sin, sin isn't limited to transgression of law. You seem to have a very narrow understanding of what sin is. And that makes the difference in this discussion.

Anyway, you see, by the law is the knowledge of sin. So then, by the law, those who breaks it, may become guilty. That is, sin is imputed to them, having transgressed the law.   

« Last Edit: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 10:47:58 by Michael2012 »

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6395
  • Manna: 62
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #113 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 11:48:48 »
Michael2012,
Toddlers have an attention span of about 5 seconds. Do you think they're at the level that you described?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #113 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 11:48:48 »

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3986
  • Manna: 145
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #114 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 12:54:22 »
Michael, you said:

Yes, only God can impute sin.

Then you said:

Quote
Sin is more than just something that God imputes to one as sin.

I see that as inconsistent. If God alone can impute sin, then sin is just something that God imputes as such. Of course, that has to take into account that God imputes sin any and every time it is committed. In the case of the saved, sin is born by Christ on the cross and His blood cleanses them away. Regardless of whether the sin is committed by the saved or the unsaved, it is never ignored or overlooked; blood has dealt with it in some way, even in the case of the life of the unsaved.

Some here have suggested that any sin in infants and toddlers is not imputed, yet such "sinners" are not able to express faith or thanksgiving regarding this. That would mean that such sins are just overlooked apart from Jesus bearing them on the cross. I can't agree with this, and that is one reason I completely disagree that such persons are sinners.

Quote
While transgression of law is sin, sin isn't limited to transgression of law.

Well, since God alone imputes sin, then sin is the breach of whatever standard God has put into place for that person. You say that it is not limited to transgression of the law, and yet in Romans 5:13 Paul writes that sin is not imputed without law. It takes the breaking of law for sin to be regarded as such. Also, John writes in 1 John 3:4 that sin is lawlessness; everyone who sins commits lawlessness. Scripture narrows down sin as such.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 12:57:36 by soterion »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #115 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 14:12:09 »
Michael2012,
Toddlers have an attention span of about 5 seconds. Do you think they're at the level that you described?


Whatever age one may be, even babes and toddlers, all men are tainted with sin. Now, anyone tainted with sin is unclean and unholy.

Have you not read of scriptures that speaks of sins committed in ignorance?   

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #116 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 14:57:25 »

Some here have suggested that any sin in infants and toddlers is not imputed, yet such "sinners" are not able to express faith or thanksgiving regarding this. That would mean that such sins are just overlooked apart from Jesus bearing them on the cross. I can't agree with this, and that is one reason I completely disagree that such persons are sinners.

But even with that, it remains, all, including infants and toddlers, are tainted with sin. And anyone tainted with sin is unclean and unholy.

Have you not read of scriptures that speaks of sins committed in ignorance?

Quote
While transgression of law is sin, sin isn't limited to transgression of law.
Well, since God alone imputes sin, then sin is the breach of whatever standard God has put into place for that person. You say that it is not limited to transgression of the law, and yet in Romans 5:13 Paul writes that sin is not imputed without law. It takes the breaking of law for sin to be regarded as such. Also, John writes in 1 John 3:4 that sin is lawlessness; everyone who sins commits lawlessness. Scripture narrows down sin as such.

In Rom.5:13, Paul deals with the matter of the imputation of sin, not what sin is.

Perhaps these couple of truths regarding sin, will tell you more about sin.

- to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
- whatever is not from faith is sin. 

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #117 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 15:12:06 »
But even with that, it remains, all, including infants and toddlers, are tainted with sin.
Absolutely not.  That is the abominable and false doctrine of original sin.  It, together with the even worse doctrine of Total Depravity, is one of the most egregious of all false doctrines.  It says that Adam sinned and God imputed his sin to all mankind.  God would not and did not do such a terrible thing.  In fact, the whole message of Romans 5:12-19 is that Jesus' sacrifice put an end to such a possibility.  Nothing that Adam did has any effect on any one else's spiritual well being, neither on his sons (Ezekiel 20) nor on any subsequent descendants.

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6395
  • Manna: 62
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #118 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 15:46:17 »
Michael2012,
Quote
Whatever age one may be, even babes and toddlers, all men are tainted with sin. Now, anyone tainted with sin is unclean and unholy.
Says who?!

Quote
Have you not read of scriptures that speaks of sins committed in ignorance?
Committed in ignorance yes, not without even the capacity to understand.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #119 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 16:12:54 »
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 14:57:25
But even with that, it remains, all, including infants and toddlers, are tainted with sin.
Absolutely not.  That is the abominable and false doctrine of original sin.  It, together with the even worse doctrine of Total Depravity, is one of the most egregious of all false doctrines.  It says that Adam sinned and God imputed his sin to all mankind.  God would not and did not do such a terrible thing.  In fact, the whole message of Romans 5:12-19 is that Jesus' sacrifice put an end to such a possibility.  Nothing that Adam did has any effect on any one else's spiritual well being, neither on his sons (Ezekiel 20) nor on any subsequent descendants.

I'm sorry if the truth offends you sir.

You can point a finger to whatever doctrine you can name, but my statement is not coming nor is based from any of that. And that does not in anyway refute that truth.

You referred to Rom.5:12-19. Let me post verse 16.

Romans 5:16
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many [a]offenses resulted in justification.

Considering those that are in bold red, here are a few questions that those with the view quite similar to yours evades every time they are brought up.

1. What is the judgement which came from ONE offense?
2. What is the condemnation that resulted?
3. To whom does the judgement and condemnation pertains, to Adam or to the world?

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #120 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 17:36:52 »
Absolutely not.  That is the abominable and false doctrine of original sin.  It, together with the even worse doctrine of Total Depravity, is one of the most egregious of all false doctrines.  It says that Adam sinned and God imputed his sin to all mankind.  God would not and did not do such a terrible thing.  In fact, the whole message of Romans 5:12-19 is that Jesus' sacrifice put an end to such a possibility.  Nothing that Adam did has any effect on any one else's spiritual well being, neither on his sons (Ezekiel 20) nor on any subsequent descendants.


I'm sorry if the truth offends you sir.

You can point a finger to whatever doctrine you can name, but my statement is not coming nor is based from any of that. And that does not in anyway refute that truth.

You referred to Rom.5:12-19. Let me post verse 16.

Romans 5:16
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many [a]offenses resulted in justification.

Considering those that are in bold red, here are a few questions that those with the view quite similar to yours evades every time they are brought up.

1. What is the judgement which came from ONE offense?
2. What is the condemnation that resulted?
3. To whom does the judgement and condemnation pertains, to Adam or to the world?

Rom 5:18  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #121 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 00:23:09 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 16:12:54
Quote
Absolutely not.  That is the abominable and false doctrine of original sin.  It, together with the even worse doctrine of Total Depravity, is one of the most egregious of all false doctrines.  It says that Adam sinned and God imputed his sin to all mankind.  God would not and did not do such a terrible thing.  In fact, the whole message of Romans 5:12-19 is that Jesus' sacrifice put an end to such a possibility.  Nothing that Adam did has any effect on any one else's spiritual well being, neither on his sons (Ezekiel 20) nor on any subsequent descendants.
Quote
I'm sorry if the truth offends you sir.

You can point a finger to whatever doctrine you can name, but my statement is not coming nor is based from any of that. And that does not in anyway refute that truth.

You referred to Rom.5:12-19. Let me post verse 16.

Romans 5:16
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many [a]offenses resulted in justification.

Considering those that are in bold red, here are a few questions that those with the view quite similar to yours evades every time they are brought up.

1. What is the judgement which came from ONE offense?
2. What is the condemnation that resulted?
3. To whom does the judgement and condemnation pertains, to Adam or to the world?
Rom 5:18  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


Not to diminish anything nor set aside what Christ had done, the subject of discussion is the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind. So, I am not touching on what Christ had done in relation to this. We can talk about that later if you want.

Rom. 5:18 answers Q#3, that the condemnation is to all men. This clearly had the ONE transgression of Adam to affect, not only him, but ALL men. Adam's sin RESULTED (past done) in condemnation, not only of Adam, but of ALL men. That condemnation is death. So, because of Adam's sin, ALL men is condemned to death. That even while mankind yet is in Adam, yet to be born, all, together with Adam, were condemned, without qualification.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #122 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 00:36:43 »
Quote
Whatever age one may be, even babes and toddlers, all men are tainted with sin. Now, anyone tainted with sin is unclean and unholy.
Says who?!

That can be understood in scriptures sir.
Quote
Have you not read of scriptures that speaks of sins committed in ignorance?
Committed in ignorance yes, not without even the capacity to understand.

Not without the capacity to understand? Scriptures does not make any qualification nor exception sir.

Death came about because of sin. All, without qualification nor exception was condemned to death because of Adam's sin.

Please see my reply #121 to 4WD.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #123 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 07:27:28 »
Rom 5:18  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.



Not to diminish anything nor set aside what Christ had done, the subject of discussion is the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind. So, I am not touching on what Christ had done in relation to this. We can talk about that later if you want.
But you are diminishing and setting aside what Christ has done.  The subject of Paul's writing in verses 18 & 19 deals specifically with the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind.  It says that Christ's act of obedience has set aside Adam's act of disobedience.  Notice carefully that these verses are speaking only of what Christ's act of obedience has done with respect to Adam's sin.  It says nothing about the sins of the many or the sins of all men  --  only Adam's.

That is the significance of the "so then  ---  even so" and the "for as --- even so" constructions that Paul uses there.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #124 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 08:43:12 »
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 00:23:09
Quote
Rom 5:18  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Quote
Not to diminish anything nor set aside what Christ had done, the subject of discussion is the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind. So, I am not touching on what Christ had done in relation to this. We can talk about that later if you want
But you are diminishing and setting aside what Christ has done.  The subject of Paul's writing in verses 18 & 19 deals specifically with the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind.  It says that Christ's act of obedience has set aside Adam's act of disobedience.  Notice carefully that these verses are speaking only of what Christ's act of obedience has done with respect to Adam's sin.  It says nothing about the sins of the many or the sins of all men  --  only Adam's.

That is the significance of the "so then  ---  even so" and the "for as --- even so" constructions that Paul uses there.


No Sir. Look at what was asked of you in Reply#119. It's about the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind. And if you are saying that the verses you cited in reply to that was to point out what Christ's act of obedience has done, then you are clearly admitting you evaded the topic by deviation.

And pushing that further, you went here to accuse me of diminishing and setting aside what Christ has done? That's your game sir? And I'd say, such is dirty play, and isn't at all Christ-like. 

Well, what else is new. Nothing's change on how you deal with such cases. Either evade by deviation or altogether quit. I am only proven right when I said in Reply#119, and I quote:

Considering those that are in bold red, here are a few questions that those with the view quite similar to yours evades every time they are brought up.

1. What is the judgement which came from ONE offense?
2. What is the condemnation that resulted?
3. To whom does the judgement and condemnation pertains, to Adam or to the world?


Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #125 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 09:59:53 »
No Sir. Look at what was asked of you in Reply#119. It's about the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind. And if you are saying that the verses you cited in reply to that was to point out what Christ's act of obedience has done, then you are clearly admitting you evaded the topic by deviation.

And pushing that further, you went here to accuse me of diminishing and setting aside what Christ has done? That's your game sir? And I'd say, such is dirty play, and isn't at all Christ-like. 

Well, what else is new. Nothing's change on how you deal with such cases. Either evade by deviation or altogether quit. I am only proven right when I said in Reply#119, and I quote:

Considering those that are in bold red, here are a few questions that those with the view quite similar to yours evades every time they are brought up.

1. What is the judgement which came from ONE offense?
2. What is the condemnation that resulted?
3. To whom does the judgement and condemnation pertains, to Adam or to the world?

Sorry, Michael, but you are simply wrong.  You are ignoring what is being said in verses 18 & 19.

I have provided this outline of Romans 5:12-21 before, but perhaps it is useful to give it to you here.

Romans 5:12-21  The All-Sufficiency of the Death of Christ

   1.   One Sin of One Man Adam Brought sin and Death (Spiritual Death) to All Mankind (12-14)

   2.   Christ and His Sacrifice are Greater than Adam and His Sin (15-17)

   3.    Christ's Cross Completely Cancels the Results of Adam's Sin on All Mankind (18-19)

   4.    Grace Triumphs over Sin and Death (20-21)


Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #126 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 10:32:04 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 08:43:12
No Sir. Look at what was asked of you in Reply#119. It's about the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind. And if you are saying that the verses you cited in reply to that was to point out what Christ's act of obedience has done, then you are clearly admitting you evaded the topic by deviation.

And pushing that further, you went here to accuse me of diminishing and setting aside what Christ has done? That's your game sir? And I'd say, such is dirty play, and isn't at all Christ-like. 

Well, what else is new. Nothing's change on how you deal with such cases. Either evade by deviation or altogether quit. I am only proven right when I said in Reply#119, and I quote:

Considering those that are in bold red, here are a few questions that those with the view quite similar to yours evades every time they are brought up.

1. What is the judgement which came from ONE offense?
2. What is the condemnation that resulted?
3. To whom does the judgement and condemnation pertains, to Adam or to the world?
Sorry, Michael, but you are simply wrong.  You are ignoring what is being said in verses 18 & 19.

I have provided this outline of Romans 5:12-21 before, but perhaps it is useful to give it to you here.

Romans 5:12-21  The All-Sufficiency of the Death of Christ

   1.   One Sin of One Man Adam Brought sin and Death (Spiritual Death) to All Mankind (12-14)

   2.   Christ and His Sacrifice are Greater than Adam and His Sin (15-17)

   3.    Christ's Cross Completely Cancels the Results of Adam's Sin on All Mankind (18-19)

   4.    Grace Triumphs over Sin and Death (20-21)

I'm sorry too 4WD, but you are pushing the discussion out of topic sir.
Regarding what is being said in v.18 & 19, I am not ignoring them sir. In fact, I said, and I quote:

Not to diminish anything nor set aside what Christ had done, the subject of discussion is the effect of the fall of Adam on mankind. So, I am not touching on what Christ had done in relation to this. We can talk about that later if you want

Well, as apparent as it is, that you don't want to continue our discussion on the topic, having addressed my post at reply#119 instead with this deviation, I will let that be. I find no use of pushing it further here as evidently you don't want to address the questions there.

And so, I now take on with your deviation instead. No problem. I'll do that in a separate post.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #127 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 12:13:49 »
Romans 5:12-21  The All-Sufficiency of the Death of Christ

   1.   One Sin of One Man Adam Brought sin and Death (Spiritual Death) to All Mankind (12-14)

   2.   Christ and His Sacrifice are Greater than Adam and His Sin (15-17)

   3.    Christ's Cross Completely Cancels the Results of Adam's Sin on All Mankind (18-19)

   4.    Grace Triumphs over Sin and Death (20-21)

On number 1.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Comment: Through Adam, sin entered the world. Through sin, death entered the world. The term "world" here refers to ALL men. In other words then, sin entered all men and death too. Paul concludes by that that death spread to all men, as stating the fact that all dies because all sinned. It should be noted at this point that Paul speaks of death in general, and that, all men are sinners.
 
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Comment: Paul here mentioned the law. He was referring to the law of Moses given by God in covenant, to the Israelites. Paul speaks of a time before the law was given,  that is, the time from Adam to before Moses. He said that during that time, sin was not imputed, in that there was no law. But that does not at all mean that there was no sin. To the contrary, he pointed out that during that time even, sin was in all men (the world).

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Comment: In conjunction to what he had just laid down in v.13, Paul here points out that death reigned from Adam to Moses. In other words, he was pointing out that all men who lived during those generations, died. This is in support to what he said in v.12, that "death spread to all men, because all sinned". And he further points out that, no one did not see death, except perhaps for Enoch, even those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, that is, disobedience to God's command. Verses 13 & 14 expound what Paul said in verse 12, that ALL sinned, one way or the other, the evidence of which is that all, male and female, young and old, died.

If you don't agree with the comments, a refutation is in order. Otherwise, I'll take that to mean your agreement.

Your outline states:

1. One Sin of One Man Adam Brought sin and Death (Spiritual Death) to All Mankind (12-14)

Of course, qualifying death there, is coming from you, and not coming from the passage. That is one that makes the difference in our understanding.

Your statement there speaks of one sin, that is, the sin of Adam. Here's my question:
How did the sin of Adam brought sin and death to all mankind? Please explain how was that.

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3986
  • Manna: 145
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #128 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 13:07:33 »
I want to respond. ::smile::

On number 1.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Comment: Through Adam, sin entered the world. Through sin, death entered the world. The term "world" here refers to ALL men. In other words then, sin entered all men and death too. Paul concludes by that that death spread to all men, as stating the fact that all dies because all sinned. It should be noted at this point that Paul speaks of death in general, and that, all men are sinners.

The passage does not say that sin entered into all men. It says that sin entered into the world, and death through sin; thus, death spread to all men because all sinned. The sinning in this passage is active, not passive. It is not saying that all men just became sinners by virtue of birth or were imputed with Adam's sin, but that all committed their own sin. This death comes to the person when he sins, not because he was born a descendant of Adam. That is why 4WD defines this death as spiritual.

Quote
 
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Comment: Paul here mentioned the law. He was referring to the law of Moses given by God in covenant, to the Israelites. Paul speaks of a time before the law was given,  that is, the time from Adam to before Moses. He said that during that time, sin was not imputed, in that there was no law. But that does not at all mean that there was no sin. To the contrary, he pointed out that during that time even, sin was in all men (the world).

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Comment: In conjunction to what he had just laid down in v.13, Paul here points out that death reigned from Adam to Moses. In other words, he was pointing out that all men who lived during those generations, died. This is in support to what he said in v.12, that "death spread to all men, because all sinned". And he further points out that, no one did not see death, except perhaps for Enoch, even those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, that is, disobedience to God's command. Verses 13 & 14 expound what Paul said in verse 12, that ALL sinned, one way or the other, the evidence of which is that all, male and female, young and old, died.

You are saying that there was no law from Adam until Moses, but yet the passage says death reigned during that time. Well, since sin is not imputed when there is no law, then there would be no death because without law, sin is nonexistent.

The point being, there was a standard from God for man to follow from Adam until Moses, and men broke that standard. For example, look at Genesis 6:5 and notice what God says about men during that time- evil all the time. God had a standard and expectations. If God had no law of any kind for men during that time, sin would not have been imputed and death would not have reigned.

Sin is not just automatically in a person because he exists. A person commits sin and then is charged and experiences separation from God. Prior to sinning, a person is innocent, such as little ones and those with intellectual disabilities. Such are not subject to God's laws, so as to be held responsible with breaking any of them.

You define "world" here as meaning "all men." Thus, sin entered into the world, and so sin entered into all men. It's as if there are genetics in the spiritual realm, and sin is passed on spiritually genetically. Nonsense. This is not found anywhere in scripture.

Sin is passed on from person to person by two means- education and example. People are flat out taught to sin (whether directly or indirectly) or they see the examples of others and imitate. Sin is not spread through birth. Adam sinned and thus sin was now evident in the world for others to see after him to follow.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #129 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 13:35:25 »
I'm sorry too 4WD, but you are pushing the discussion out of topic sir.
Regarding what is being said in v.18 & 19, I am not ignoring them sir.
Yes, Michael, you are ignoring them.  They deal directly with the topic.  The topic is do toddlers sin.  Sin is defined, biblically, as lawlessness (1 John 2:4).  And Paul says here that where there is no law, there is no sin.  Unless you are terribly unjust, a toddler cannot be expected in any sense to be under law, any law, the Law of Moses or any other law.  Quite simply with the toddler there is no law.

So then the only consideration that can be given to a toddler sinning would be if, as the typical explanation of original sin, the human being, every human being, at or before birth "sinned in Adam when Adam sinned."  The passage in Romans 5:12-21 says that is not the case because the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross cancelled out any such affect.

And for what it is worth, we know that the death that entered the world through Adam's sin was spiritual, not physical death.  Because here it is said that Jesus' death on the cross cancelled out the effect of Adam's sin, but all men still die physically.  The death that spread to all men in verse 12 is OBVIOUSLY spiritual death; and that because all men sinned.

I would just add that all that I have said here is in complete harmony with Jesus words concerning children and the kingdom:

Matt 18:3  and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:14  But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


See also Mark 10:14 and Luke 18:16

Also what Soterion said above.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #130 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 14:51:18 »
I want to respond. ::smile::
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 12:13:49
On number 1.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Comment: Through Adam, sin entered the world. Through sin, death entered the world. The term "world" here refers to ALL men. In other words then, sin entered all men and death too. Paul concludes by that that death spread to all men, as stating the fact that all dies because all sinned. It should be noted at this point that Paul speaks of death in general, and that, all men are sinners.
The passage does not say that sin entered into all men. It says that sin entered into the world, and death through sin; thus, death spread to all men because all sinned. The sinning in this passage is active, not passive. It is not saying that all men just became sinners by virtue of birth or were imputed with Adam's sin, but that all committed their own sin. This death comes to the person when he sins, not because he was born a descendant of Adam. That is why 4WD defines this death as spiritual.

Consider the phrase "sin entered the world". I told you my take on the term "world" as referring to mankind. Perhaps you can give yours.

I understand you are bringing your belief here that death comes to the person when he sins and not because he sinned in Adam. But I find that irrelevant to what I said in my post as I did not said anything about that subject. As such, it becomes pointless relative to my post, as also then, it does not refute anything I said in my post.

It would we best if you give your commentary on the verse as I did. By that, we can give the readers see our views clearly, as I too would see what the verse is saying to you on the clear so I can respond accordingly.

Quote
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Comment: Paul here mentioned the law. He was referring to the law of Moses given by God in covenant, to the Israelites. Paul speaks of a time before the law was given,  that is, the time from Adam to before Moses. He said that during that time, sin was not imputed, in that there was no law. But that does not at all mean that there was no sin. To the contrary, he pointed out that during that time even, sin was in all men (the world).

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Comment: In conjunction to what he had just laid down in v.13, Paul here points out that death reigned from Adam to Moses. In other words, he was pointing out that all men who lived during those generations, died. This is in support to what he said in v.12, that "death spread to all men, because all sinned". And he further points out that, no one did not see death, except perhaps for Enoch, even those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, that is, disobedience to God's command. Verses 13 & 14 expound what Paul said in verse 12, that ALL sinned, one way or the other, the evidence of which is that all, male and female, young and old, died.

You are saying that there was no law from Adam until Moses, but yet the passage says death reigned during that time. Well, since sin is not imputed when there is no law, then there would be no death because without law, sin is nonexistent.

The point being, there was a standard from God for man to follow from Adam until Moses, and men broke that standard. For example, look at Genesis 6:5 and notice what God says about men during that time- evil all the time. God had a standard and expectations. If God had no law of any kind for men during that time, sin would not have been imputed and death would not have reigned.

Please read again, as obviously you missed this "Paul here mentioned the law. He was referring to the law of Moses given by God in covenant, to the Israelites." So, when I said "He said that during that time, sin was not imputed, in that there was no law.", I did not mean to say that there was no law that governs the hearts and conscience of man during those times, but that, the sense is that there is no law such as the law of Moses, which tells whether one committed a sin or not. In the former case, then sin is imputed to the transgressor.

And perhaps you can tell me the significance of the word "Nevertheless" in v.14, and the significance as to why Paul only refer to the time of Adam to Moses and not beyond that.

Sin is not just automatically in a person because he exists. A person commits sin and then is charged and experiences separation from God. Prior to sinning, a person is innocent, such as little ones and those with intellectual disabilities. Such are not subject to God's laws, so as to be held responsible with breaking any of them.

I respect your opinion sir. But again, I have to point out, such matter is not spoken of in any of the verses involved in the passage under consideration. But to give a comment, all of God's creation are subject to Him and His laws. And God holds responsible any and all who breaks His laws.


You define "world" here as meaning "all men." Thus, sin entered into the world, and so sin entered into all men. It's as if there are genetics in the spiritual realm, and sin is passed on spiritually genetically. Nonsense. This is not found anywhere in scripture.
That's because you put a qualification on "death" there spoken in the passage as referring to what you call "spiritual death", when such qualification is not there. I take the term "world" as referring to "all men" from context. Consider: "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned". Consider even  the context in verse 18, "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,....." To whom do you understand  judgement and condemnation pertains to, Adam or all men?


Sin is passed on from person to person by two means- education and example. People are flat out taught to sin (whether directly or indirectly) or they see the examples of others and imitate. Sin is not spread through birth. Adam sinned and thus sin was now evident in the world for others to see after him to follow.

Again, I respect your opinion here sir. But that is just not what any verse in the passage says anything about and neither did I say anything about.

And since you said you wanted to respond, I hope you can respond to the question:

How did the sin of Adam brought sin and death to the world?
How did the sin of Adam brought judgement and condemnation to all men?
Please explain how was that.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5821
  • Manna: 117
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #131 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 19:38:37 »
I want to respond. ::smile::

The passage does not say that sin entered into all men. It says that sin entered into the world, and death through sin; thus, death spread to all men because all sinned. The sinning in this passage is active, not passive. It is not saying that all men just became sinners by virtue of birth or were imputed with Adam's sin, but that all committed their own sin. This death comes to the person when he sins, not because he was born a descendant of Adam. That is why 4WD defines this death as spiritual.

You are saying that there was no law from Adam until Moses, but yet the passage says death reigned during that time. Well, since sin is not imputed when there is no law, then there would be no death because without law, sin is nonexistent.

The point being, there was a standard from God for man to follow from Adam until Moses, and men broke that standard. For example, look at Genesis 6:5 and notice what God says about men during that time- evil all the time. God had a standard and expectations. If God had no law of any kind for men during that time, sin would not have been imputed and death would not have reigned.

Sin is not just automatically in a person because he exists. A person commits sin and then is charged and experiences separation from God. Prior to sinning, a person is innocent, such as little ones and those with intellectual disabilities. Such are not subject to God's laws, so as to be held responsible with breaking any of them.

You define "world" here as meaning "all men." Thus, sin entered into the world, and so sin entered into all men. It's as if there are genetics in the spiritual realm, and sin is passed on spiritually genetically. Nonsense. This is not found anywhere in scripture.

Sin is passed on from person to person by two means- education and example. People are flat out taught to sin (whether directly or indirectly) or they see the examples of others and imitate. Sin is not spread through birth. Adam sinned and thus sin was now evident in the world for others to see after him to follow.

There is an inherent inconsistency in your argumentation.
You say that "death" in Paul's argument means "spiritual death".

Look at this verse:
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

Translated that would then say:
"Nevertheless spiritual death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned..."

Now you have a contradiction because what the verse would say is that even if you do not sin...you still die spiritually.
Your claim however is that people die spiritually only at the point when they sin, but this verse would argue that people die spiritually regardless of whether they sin.
So by claiming that "death" in Paul's argumentation means "spiritual death", you make an argument that is self-contradictory.

The only logical conclusion then is that the "death" Paul argues, is physical death.

Then verse 12 states:
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Now if we enter "physical death" into this verse, it would read:
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and physical death through sin, and thus physical death spread to all men, because all sinned"


So, claiming "spiritual death" arrives at an inherent contradiction, whilst "physical death" arrives at a cohesive statement.
Therefore the "physical death" interpretation is correct.

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3986
  • Manna: 145
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #132 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 22:04:10 »
Look at this verse:
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

Translated that would then say:
"Nevertheless spiritual death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned..."

Now you have a contradiction because what the verse would say is that even if you do not sin...you still die spiritually.

Seriously? You quote the passage only so far and then claim it says those people had not sinned at all.

You are grossly mistaken. Can you maintain that idea after reading Genesis 6:5? Do you actually believe the passage in Romans is saying that those folks who lived from Adam until Moses had not sinned?

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3986
  • Manna: 145
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #133 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 22:16:31 »

That's because you put a qualification on "death" there spoken in the passage as referring to what you call "spiritual death", when such qualification is not there. I take the term "world" as referring to "all men" from context. Consider: "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned". Consider even  the context in verse 18, "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,....." To whom do you understand  judgement and condemnation pertains to, Adam or all men?

Again, I respect your opinion here sir. But that is just not what any verse in the passage says anything about and neither did I say anything about.

And since you said you wanted to respond, I hope you can respond to the question:

How did the sin of Adam brought sin and death to the world?
How did the sin of Adam brought judgement and condemnation to all men?
Please explain how was that.


All of these questions have been responded to you in at least one past thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-all-mankind-sinned-in-adam/msg1055107016/#msg1055107016

Why are you rehashing old stuff and re-asking the same questions? I could just repost what I posted then.  ::shrug::

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5821
  • Manna: 117
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #134 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 23:37:33 »
Seriously? You quote the passage only so far and then claim it says those people had not sinned at all.

You are grossly mistaken. Can you maintain that idea after reading Genesis 6:5? Do you actually believe the passage in Romans is saying that those folks who lived from Adam until Moses had not sinned?

I am simply applying your claim that "death" means "spiritual death".
So the question is actually for you to answer because you make the claim.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #135 on: Tue Nov 13, 2018 - 02:48:24 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:32:04
I'm sorry too 4WD, but you are pushing the discussion out of topic sir.
Regarding what is being said in v.18 & 19, I am not ignoring them sir.
Yes, Michael, you are ignoring them.  They deal directly with the topic.  The topic is do toddlers sin.  Sin is defined, biblically, as lawlessness (1 John 2:4).  And Paul says here that where there is no law, there is no sin.  Unless you are terribly unjust, a toddler cannot be expected in any sense to be under law, any law, the Law of Moses or any other law.  Quite simply with the toddler there is no law.

While scriptures says that sin is lawlessness, that is not all of what scriptures say sin is. Scriptures also says :
1. whatever is not from faith
2. to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin

So, you think that a toddler cannot be in any sense to be under whatever law. Is that in scriptures? Please cite verses or passages for me to consider.

I'd say, all of God's creation are subject to God and His laws.


So then the only consideration that can be given to a toddler sinning would be if, as the typical explanation of original sin, the human being, every human being, at or before birth "sinned in Adam when Adam sinned."  The passage in Romans 5:12-21 says that is not the case because the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross cancelled out any such affect.

1 Cor. 15:21-22
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Perhaps you can tell us what the phrase "in Adam" and "in Adam all die".

And it seems to me that you somehow agree that mankind sinned in Adam. Only that, that is not now the case because Jesus had cancelled out any such affect.

And while Jesus' sacrifice on the cross may well have resulted to justification (as opposed to condemnation), man remains to be still in the flesh, wherein sin dwells. That is, man still remain in the body of death. This is where the resurrection becomes significant. For in the resurrection, the body that will be given to man is a new body, where sin dwells no more.     

And for what it is worth, we know that the death that entered the world through Adam's sin was spiritual, not physical death.  Because here it is said that Jesus' death on the cross cancelled out the effect of Adam's sin, but all men still die physically.  The death that spread to all men in verse 12 is OBVIOUSLY spiritual death; and that because all men sinned.

No sir, not what we know, rather what you know. And apparently that conclusion of yours comes from your reasoning that Jesus' death on the cross cancelled out the effect of Adam's sin, but all men still die physically. So, you are reading in, your conclusion into the passage.

First, consider what that would make of the following passage:

1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

If the death that entered the world through the man Adam, as you here contend, is 'spiritual death', that would make 1 Cor. 15:21 say that by man came spiritual death, isn't it? And with regards the contrast that is being made by Paul, to be valid, that would make the resurrection spoken on the second part as to be 'spiritual' as well. But obviously, in 1 Cor. 15, the resurrection spoken there refers to that of the body, not the spirit.

Second, Jesus' act of obedience does not end at his death on the cross. And that is what you apparently failed to consider. I'm referring to the resurrection of the body. The salvation of God of man concerns the whole of man, not only spirit but even the body.


I would just add that all that I have said here is in complete harmony with Jesus words concerning children and the kingdom:

Matt 18:3  and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:14  But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


See also Mark 10:14 and Luke 18:16

Also what Soterion said above.

[/size]

Sorry, but you are mistaken sir.

Jesus did not say the kingdom belonged to children, but to people who are similar to children ("to such as these"). It has to do with the attitude of children who appreciate a gift as an absolute, something which they are aware they cannot have worked to deserve. Children illustrates the qualities necessary for entering and serving in the kingdom. Jesus certainly did not mean the kingdom of God belonged to children, as we very well know that in the kingdom of God, we have the children and the matured, the young and the old. 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Manna: 9
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #136 on: Tue Nov 13, 2018 - 03:31:31 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 14:51:18

That's because you put a qualification on "death" there spoken in the passage as referring to what you call "spiritual death", when such qualification is not there. I take the term "world" as referring to "all men" from context. Consider: "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned". Consider even  the context in verse 18, "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,....." To whom do you understand  judgement and condemnation pertains to, Adam or all men?

Again, I respect your opinion here sir. But that is just not what any verse in the passage says anything about and neither did I say anything about.

And since you said you wanted to respond, I hope you can respond to the question:

How did the sin of Adam brought sin and death to the world?
How did the sin of Adam brought judgement and condemnation to all men?
Please explain how was that.

All of these questions have been responded to you in at least one past thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-all-mankind-sinned-in-adam/msg1055107016/#msg1055107016

Why are you rehashing old stuff and re-asking the same questions? I could just repost what I posted then.
::shrug::


You may think by what you said in the link, that you had addressed the questions. But you haven't sir. What you have said there sir does not answer the questions. Rather, they beg the questions.

So, for the sake of honesty, sincerity, and truth, please do address the simple questions before you, as follows:

1. Regarding Rom. 5:18, to whom do you understand judgement and condemnation pertains to, Adam or all men?
2. How did the sin of Adam brought sin and death to the world?
3. How did the sin of Adam brought judgement and condemnation to all men?
Please explain how was that.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #137 on: Tue Nov 13, 2018 - 05:09:55 »
There is an inherent inconsistency in your argumentation.
You say that "death" in Paul's argument means "spiritual death".

Look at this verse:
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

Translated that would then say:
"Nevertheless spiritual death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned..."
That is but one more example of your nearly always irrational arguments.  Neither Soterion, nor Paul in Romans, said that those from Adam to Moses did not sin.  Of course they sinned.  But just not in the same way that Adam sinned.  His sin was to disobey a command given directly by God.  But Paul, speaking for God, made it clear earlier in verse 12 that death, spiritual death, spread to all men because all men sinned.

He had made that abundantly clear in Chapter 1 as well concerning all those [Gentiles] who had not reeeived the law of Moses had sinned even thought they had not received the law of Moses.  The "law" that Paul speaks of throughout his discussions is not simply the law of Moses.
Quote from: AVZ
Now you have a contradiction because......
The only contradiction here is you, AVZ, as usual.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7445
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #138 on: Tue Nov 13, 2018 - 05:26:01 »
While scriptures says that sin is lawlessness, that is not all of what scriptures say sin is. Scriptures also says :
1. whatever is not from faith
2. to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin
And that is lawlessness (1 John 3:4).


Quote from: Michael
So, you think that a toddler cannot be in any sense to be under whatever law. Is that in scriptures? Please cite verses or passages for me to consider.

I'd say, all of God's creation are subject to God and His laws.
Yes all of God's creation are subject to God and His laws; even animals are subject to God and His laws, but animals do not sin.  Toddlers are also subject to God and His laws but they do not sin.

Jesus said,

Matt 18:3  and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 

The kingdom of heaven does not belong to sinners.  The kingdom belongs to those who have been converted and become like children, i.e., become free from sin.  The children have not been converted.  They do not need to be converted.  They have not committed sin to need to be converted. 

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6395
  • Manna: 62
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #139 on: Tue Nov 13, 2018 - 08:09:35 »
4WD,
Agreed.

 

     
anything