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Author Topic: Power of the BLOOD!  (Read 8535 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #770 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:02:46 »
I agree whole heartedly that we should study and find the reason's in scripture why God granted the request for repentance in some, but denied the request for repentance from others.
Where does it say that God ever denied the request for repentance?

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #770 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:02:46 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #771 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:04:04 »
Quote
I don't get why you suddenly here resort to definitions, after all that's been said about the granting and not granting of repentance. If you are trying to have it mean  as having the sense as being some kind of "opportunity", I have to object that it is not. Now, if you have a different definition of the word "grant" let's hear it.

grant (Gr. didomi) = to give

Let's take the phrase "if God perhaps will grant them repentance". The sense there of "grant" is that, of God's own accord to give them repentance (metanoia), to their advantage; to bestow, give as a gift.

Let's take the phrase "God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." The sense there of "granted" is the same. That is, of God's own accord, had given them repentance (metanoia) to life, to their advantage; to bestow, give as a gift.

Scriptures tells us that repentance is granted by God or that God grants repentance. I like to think that you don't deny that.

Now here's my question for you: Why is it that God have to grant repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?
So Michael let me ask this then is it universal or something man has to come to?

As to your question here, can you rephrase it so I may clearly understand what it is you ask? I'll answer then. In the meantime, I'll be expecting your answers to my questions which you seem to just ignore. I think it's just fair for you to address them as I did yours.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #771 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:04:04 »

Online GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #772 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:09:04 »
Where does it say that God ever denied the request for repentance?

Heb. 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #772 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:09:04 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #773 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:15:10 »
Repentance is something requested yes? "Father forgive me of my sins" is a request that both Jews and Gentiles might ask is it not? Repentance wouldn't be granted for those who didn't ask for it would they?

So as it is written, some who request repentance, it is granted, and some who request repentance, it is not granted.

I agree whole heartedly that we should study and find the reason's in scripture why God granted the request for repentance in some, but denied the request for repentance from others.

No, repentance is not something requested. I think you are mistaking repentance for asking God's mercy and forgiveness.

Repentance (Gr. metanoia) = a change of mind.

With regards the questions, "Why is it that God have to grant repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?", what are your answers?

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #773 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:15:10 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #774 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:15:37 »
Heb. 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
It was Esau's father, not God, who refused his attempt to repent.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #774 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:15:37 »



Offline Kkukk

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #775 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:23:26 »
No, repentance is not something requested. I think you are mistaking repentance for asking God's mercy and forgiveness.

Repentance (Gr. metanoia) = a change of mind.

With regards the questions, "Why is it that God have to grant repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?", what are your answers?
Do you drink the blood?

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #775 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:23:26 »

Online GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #776 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 14:50:53 »
No, repentance is not something requested. I think you are mistaking repentance for asking God's mercy and forgiveness.

Repentance (Gr. metanoia) = a change of mind.

With regards the questions, "Why is it that God have to grant repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?", what are your answers?


Repentance = GR. Think differently or afterwards, compunction for guilt including reformation, reversal of decision.

I see your point. We bring repentance, God may or may not grant forgiveness depending on the Works we bring for repentance.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.





Online yogi bear

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #777 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 15:35:37 »
Michael the reason I haven't answered your question  is because I am still trying to figure out just what you are saying.

It seems to me that like Red you are trying g to say that God gives man repentance just as Red says God gives man faith. That man can not repent unless God somehow gives it to him. Is that what you are trying to say? If not then what? Stop beating around the bush and just come out and say just what you are trying to say.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #778 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 15:36:23 »

Repentance = GR. Think differently or afterwards, compunction for guilt including reformation, reversal of decision.

I see your point. We bring repentance, God may or may not grant forgiveness depending on the Works we bring for repentance.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

You did not answer the questions: "Why is it that God have to grant repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

You said "God may or may not grant forgiveness". How about repentance?
GB, do you believe that God grants repentance, as according to scriptures? Do you believe that God may grant or not grant repentance, as according to scriptures?


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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #778 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 15:36:23 »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #779 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 15:45:40 »
Acts 17:30 (KJV)  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Michael what does this verse mean to you?

Does God grant or command here and how does this play in with your ideal of grants?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #780 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 16:00:18 »
Michael the reason I haven't answered your question  is because I am still trying to figure out just what you are saying.

It seems to me that like Red you are trying g to say that God gives man repentance just as Red says God gives man faith. That man can not repent unless God somehow gives it to him. Is that what you are trying to say? If not then what? Stop beating around the bush and just come out and say just what you are trying to say.

I had plainly told you what I was trying to say in my posts. So I'm surprised until now you are trying to figure it out. Let me list them down for you here.

1. God grants repentance (metanoia).
2. God may or may not grant repentance (metanoia), according to His will.
3. Repentance (metanoia) is possible only as far as God grants it, and that it is up to God to grant or not.

Now perhaps you can now go on and answer my questions, if you at least believe 1 & 2.

Why is it that God have to grant repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #781 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 16:07:36 »
Michael I know you think you are clear as a bell but my poor mind can not understand what you mean by God grants repentance. You say it is not that he made it possible but that he gives it so how does he give it is it the same as Red says he gives one faith the can not have faith unless God miraculously give it to him is that what you are saying about repentance

Online GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #782 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 17:05:09 »
You did not answer the questions: "Why is it that God have to grant repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

You said "God may or may not grant forgiveness". How about repentance?
GB, do you believe that God grants repentance, as according to scriptures? Do you believe that God may grant or not grant repentance, as according to scriptures?

Well let's look at the whole scripture so as to better understand what Paul is teaching.

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; (Men are already saved, already resurrected from the dead, already given eternal life) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So Paul is telling Timothy, who has been granted repentance, to make sure and study the Law and Prophets so as to know what it teaches so he can discern religious doctrines and traditions of men. Nevertheless, the foundation of God is sure, let those who claim Jesus as their Savior, obey the Commandments of God.

For these folks who depart from lawlessness, they should be prepared to teach those men who are not departing from lawlessness, who Paul teaches are "Slaves to whom they obey."

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God knows their heart, Timothy doesn't. God knows their motives, their agenda, their true desire, Timothy doesn't. God knows what they will do before they do it, Timothy doesn't. God adds to His Church, Timothy doesn't. God opens the eyes of those truly seeking him, Timothy doesn't. God provides forgiveness to those who bring forth works worthy of repentance, Timothy doesn't.

Paul knows this and says therefore;;;

2 Tim. 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.





 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #783 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 22:22:20 »
Well let's look at the whole scripture so as to better understand what Paul is teaching.

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; (Men are already saved, already resurrected from the dead, already given eternal life) and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So Paul is telling Timothy, who has been granted repentance, to make sure and study the Law and Prophets so as to know what it teaches so he can discern religious doctrines and traditions of men. Nevertheless, the foundation of God is sure, let those who claim Jesus as their Savior, obey the Commandments of God.

For these folks who depart from lawlessness, they should be prepared to teach those men who are not departing from lawlessness, who Paul teaches are "Slaves to whom they obey."

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God knows their heart, Timothy doesn't. God knows their motives, their agenda, their true desire, Timothy doesn't. God knows what they will do before they do it, Timothy doesn't. God adds to His Church, Timothy doesn't. God opens the eyes of those truly seeking him, Timothy doesn't. God provides forgiveness to those who bring forth works worthy of repentance, Timothy doesn't.

Paul knows this and says therefore;;;

2 Tim. 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So, GB, do you believe that God grants/gives repentance, as according to 2 Tim.2:25? Do you believe that God may grant or not grant repentance, as according 2 Tim. 2:25?

"Why is it that God have to grant/give repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

You had not really answered any up to now.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #784 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 22:51:34 »
Michael I know you think you are clear as a bell but my poor mind can not understand what you mean by God grants repentance. You say it is not that he made it possible but that he gives it so how does he give it is it the same as Red says he gives one faith the can not have faith unless God miraculously give it to him is that what you are saying about repentance

I don't believe you have a poor mind yogi. You've shown yourself to have a pretty sound mind in this entire forum. So I wonder why suddenly this difficulty.

You said "You say it is not that he made it possible but that he gives it". I did not say anything like that. This is what I said "Repentance (metanoia ~ change of mind) is possible only as far as God grants it, and that it is up to God to grant or not."

And I am really not in the know about what you say Red say about faith. So, I am not in a position to comment on that.

In my Reply #766, I had shown you the definition of "grant". I had also given what is "repentance". What else is it you want for me to do? Or would you only understand me if I say what you want to hear me say, like if I say that repentance means the opportunity to repent? Now, the absence of a refutation from you on the definition I gave you of "grant" and "repentance", only suggest to me that you agree with such. So then, how do you not then understand scriptures such as 2 Tim.2:25, which says "if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,"? I'm sure it is not too difficult to understand. But the reason behind why you apparently have difficulty in understanding that, I can't think of any, except that, you find the truth of it simply unacceptable. Perhaps, because it tells you something that goes contrary to what knowledge you have concerning the grace and sovereignty of God.

So, that part of scriptures in 2 Tim.2:25, if you say it in your own words, how would you paraphrase it?

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #785 on: Sat Oct 12, 2019 - 23:48:32 »
Michael I have already told you that I read it as grants which I understand is the opportunity and obey the gospel. to repent. Hear in context Is instruction to teach in meekness so that they may come to repentance and come to obey the gospel call.

I can't not read it as God gives them repentance but the opportunity to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

See God wants all to come to repentance so if it was give God would give all so it would be universal but we know not all will come so it is grants the opportunity for all to come not miraculously given.

I think in context it is saying that God sends the messenger to teach them in meekness so they can have he opportunity to repent and come know the truth of the gospel.

You seem to be saying that God has to give them a changed mind but it is the gospel that does that. Man has to come to a change of mind God does not miraculously give it to him.

I seem to have difficulty explaining this I know what I want to say but can not get it out to where you can understand and for that I am sorry.

Those scriptures is teaching that one has to turn from sinful life to living in Gods will.

 


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #786 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 01:59:07 »
Michael I have already told you that I read it as grants which I understand is the opportunity and obey the gospel. to repent. Hear in context Is instruction to teach in meekness so that they may come to repentance and come to obey the gospel call.

I can't not read it as God gives them repentance but the opportunity to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

See God wants all to come to repentance so if it was give God would give all so it would be universal but we know not all will come so it is grants the opportunity for all to come not miraculously given.

I think in context it is saying that God sends the messenger to teach them in meekness so they can have he opportunity to repent and come know the truth of the gospel.

You seem to be saying that God has to give them a changed mind but it is the gospel that does that. Man has to come to a change of mind God does not miraculously give it to him.

I seem to have difficulty explaining this I know what I want to say but can not get it out to where you can understand and for that I am sorry.

Those scriptures is teaching that one has to turn from sinful life to living in Gods will.
And I had already shown you the error in having "grant" mean "opportunity". You can examine this out by looking at the Greek word that was translated "grant". Now repentance, that is, metanoia in the Greek, is change of mind. In this part of 2 Tim. 2:25, the word "repentance" is a noun, not a verb. So, in reading this scriptures, one ought to take it and understand it as a noun, not a verb. So repentance there is a name for such abstract thing as "change of mind". Likewise, the word "grant" is a verb, not a noun. A verb that means "to give". It isn't a noun and does not mean "opportunity".

So, if you cannot read that part of 2 Tim 2:25, as it is written, then that is the problem. And I can't understand why you can't. What I only can think of is because you can't simply accept what it plainly says.

2 Peter 3:9 does not at all contradict what 2 Tim.2:25 is telling us. It does not contradict the truth that God grants repentance and that He may or may not grant it.

While it may well be that God desires that all should come to repentance, and that none should perish, it does not mean that all would repent and none will perish. For to the contrary, it is known, not only to God, but to the ancient generations and to us today, that this matter did not happen even from the time of Adam, and will not happen.

You said "See God wants all to come to repentance so if it was give God would give all so it would be universal...".

That is your wisdom, reasoning and mind yogi, and obviously not God's. And it's now in the clear what your problem is on the truths that God grants repentance, that God may or may not grant repentance, and that it is up to God to grant or not.

I believe you don't have a problem with God having mercy on whom He wills, and hardens whom He wills. Is this not in the same sense, if we take your wisdom, reasoning, and mind here, should be a problem for you? Would you not be reasoning in like sense, that since God wants that none should perish, that God would have mercy on all? But you don't have that kind of reasoning and problem with regards that, right? And you should not. For we should believe in what scriptures says of God, and we should have faith in God's wisdom and workings, however they seem to be not conforming to our wisdom, reasoning and mind. Remember, without faith, it is impossible to please God. 

You said "I think in context it is saying that God sends the messenger to teach them in meekness so they can have he opportunity to repent and come know the truth of the gospel."

I had made a breakdown of 2 Tim. 2:25 in my other post which I think will point out the error in that. Let me share that with you here, for your consideration.

2 Timothy 2:25in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

1. "correcting those who are in opposition" - gives them the opportunity to repent
2. "if God perhaps will grant them repentance" - up to God to grant them repentance or not.
3. "so that they may know the truth" - if God grants them repentance, they will know the truth, if not, they won't

You said "You seem to be saying that God has to give them a changed mind but it is the gospel that does that. Man has to come to a change of mind God does not miraculously give it to him."

Repentance is a matter of one's will, heart, and mind. So, it touches upon the ability of one to will, his having a contrite heart, and moral consciousness. When scriptures says that God grants repentance, we can be sure that this is a working of God involving the will, heart, and mind, of the person. Now, to any one to whom God granted repentance, God had worked on his will, heart, and mind, that he comes to repentance, a change of mind. Now, it must be realized that such working of God is not one of forcing out one to repent, but one that effectively enables him to. How God does that, I could only speculate. One that I would point as an example is that of Paul. We learn in scriptures, that by God's wisdom, will, and purpose, he was granted repentance. God would have done the opposite, if He so willed, that is, to not grant Paul repentance. If God had not granted Paul repentance, Paul would not know the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing Paul from scriptures, and what zeal he have, he would had continued in what he believes is the right thing to do, and would continue persecuting Jesus and His church. His heart is hardened, so to speak. And them whose heart is hardened, like for example some of the Pharisees in the days of Jesus, are with eyes but can't see and with ears but can't hear. No amount of preaching, even with accompanying wonders and miraculous signs, will enable them to come to repentance. We had seen this in unbelieving Israel. Do you not understand that these people can have no repentance (metanoia), that is, a "change of mind"? That seems to be the case for man, in general. 

Paul is just one case. Another are the about 3000 in Acts 2. You are another case, I am another case. The other millions are another million cases. In all of us who have come to repentance (change of mind), we owe it to God, God having granted each one of us, repentance, and that, repentance unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ. Like what we learn from 2 Tim.2:25, if God would not have granted us repentance, by and according to His will, we would not have known the truth, even Paul. But thanks, praise, and glory be to God, we had known the truth, for God had granted us repentance. 


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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #787 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 03:53:44 »
Michael the reason I haven't answered your question  is because I am still trying to figure out just what you are saying.

It seems to me that like Red you are trying g to say that God gives man repentance just as Red says God gives man faith. That man can not repent unless God somehow gives it to him. Is that what you are trying to say? If not then what? Stop beating around the bush and just come out and say just what you are trying to say.
Good morning Yogi~I say no more than what Paul clearly taught the early church, and us through them.
Quote from: The man of God
Philippians 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
Please consider: Our salvation from sin and condemnation is OF GOD~and Paul explains what he meant by making that clear statement.....""FOR" used in this context to mean "because of" (consider and learn when reading such scriptures as Acts 2:38!) ......It was given to us to believe on the behalf of Jesus Christ SECURING that power for us since we had NO POWER/STRENGTH to do so by our will since our will before salvation was freely given to us was IN BONDAGE to sin and the devil.

By being quickening by the Spirit of God,  we were created after the image of the Son of God, the POWER/STRENGTH was then present to hear, believe, repent, and to follow Christ's commandments.

If this is not what Paul is saying in Philippians 1:28,29 then you or any of your friends give their understanding of theses pretty clear cut scriptures that seem to give no room for any other interpretation.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 03:56:21 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #788 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 06:28:35 »
Please consider: Our salvation from sin and condemnation is OF GOD~and Paul explains what he meant by making that clear statement.....""FOR" used in this context to mean "because of" (consider and learn when reading such scriptures as Acts 2:38!) .....
If you would but avail yourself to the information readily available you would find out that the word "For" in Philippians 1:29 is a translation of the Greek word ὅτι [hoti] not εἰς [eis]. They are two different words entirely with entirely different meanings.  Your comment relating it to Acts 2:38 is just plain wrong. 

Quote from: RB
By being quickening by the Spirit of God,  we were created after the image of the Son of God, the POWER/STRENGTH was then present to hear, believe, repent, and to follow Christ's commandments.
RB, there is nothing in that verse that says anything about quickening by the Spirit of God or being created after the image of the Son of God.  That is purely your own eisegesis and comes not from that verse.

He is simply comparing their suffering for the sake of Christ with his own suffering for the sake of Christ.  Considering that Philippians was written during his imprisonment in Rome.  He considered his suffering  for the sake of Christ as a gift.  He is encouraging them to also consider any suffering on behalf of Christ to be a gift.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 06:37:51 by 4WD »

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #789 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 07:28:10 »
Michael I owe you an apology for I was not seeing what you were trying to say but was arguing what I thought you were saying. Yes I now see what you are saying and can agree. Looks like I was building a straw man and fighting it instead of hearing what you were saying and for that I am sorry.

On second reading of your last post I think I have to withdraw my apology for I think we may not be on the same side of the fence in reality but only in hopes that you are saying what I thought you were saying.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 08:45:30 by yogi bear »

Online GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #790 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 08:05:08 »
So, GB, do you believe that God grants/gives repentance, as according to 2 Tim.2:25? Do you believe that God may grant or not grant repentance, as according 2 Tim. 2:25?

"Why is it that God have to grant/give repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

You had not really answered any up to now.

Well I gave you the Bibles answer to your question. You may not believe it, but the answer is there.

Let me simplify.

Jesus says repentance is absolutely required for Salvation. Without repentance, there is NO SALVATION.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

But repentance requires "Works" or "fruits" to qualify. In other words, a person must bring Works "worthy" of repentance.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

It doesn't matter who you are, what religion you belong to, what some preacher told you, how other people think about you, how holy you think you are, Jew, Gentile, none of that matters. You must have repentance, and that is determined by your works.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

But God is the only one who can see your true works, your true motive, your true heart. He knows if you are sincere or not. He is the only one who can Judge whether your "Works or Fruits" are Worthy for repentance.

So your question; ""Why is it that God have to grant/give repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

The Bibles answer; "Because God is the only one who can see your true works, your true motive, your true heart. He knows if you are sincere or not. He is the only one who can Judge whether your "Works or Fruits" are Worthy for repentance."

And given that I trust this God and His Word's, it is my answer as well.






Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #791 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 09:52:15 »
Michael I owe you an apology for I was not seeing what you were trying to say but was arguing what I thought you were saying. Yes I now see what you are saying and can agree. Looks like I was building a straw man and fighting it instead of hearing what you were saying and for that I am sorry.

On second reading of your last post I think I have to withdraw my apology for I think we may not be on the same side of the fence in reality but only in hopes that you are saying what I thought you were saying.

I, for a moment, felt glad after reading your first paragraph. Thank you for such precious seconds.

Regarding your second paragraph, how can we not be on the same side of the fence when both of us are at the side where Jesus is? I believe we are, and I'd like to believe we both are children of God. But even brothers and sisters aren't exactly the same, but different in so many ways, such as looks, age, interests, intelligence, etc....., and maturity. I think our exchanges somehow demonstrates our differences at this point in time. Differences that, I believe, will in time be gone as we mature in the knowledge of God. 

I hope our disagreement is nothing but a simple case of misunderstanding or a communication problem.

So, can you tell me what you now think I was saying? I'll tell you if this time you got me right or I still need to explain further.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #792 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 11:39:15 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 22:22:20
So, GB, do you believe that God grants/gives repentance, as according to 2 Tim.2:25? Do you believe that God may grant or not grant repentance, as according 2 Tim. 2:25?

"Why is it that God have to grant/give repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

You had not really answered any up to now.
Well I gave you the Bibles answer to your question. You may not believe it, but the answer is there.

Let me simplify.

Jesus says repentance is absolutely required for Salvation. Without repentance, there is NO SALVATION.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

But repentance requires "Works" or "fruits" to qualify. In other words, a person must bring Works "worthy" of repentance.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

It doesn't matter who you are, what religion you belong to, what some preacher told you, how other people think about you, how holy you think you are, Jew, Gentile, none of that matters. You must have repentance, and that is determined by your works.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

But God is the only one who can see your true works, your true motive, your true heart. He knows if you are sincere or not. He is the only one who can Judge whether your "Works or Fruits" are Worthy for repentance.

So your question; ""Why is it that God have to grant/give repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

The Bibles answer; "Because God is the only one who can see your true works, your true motive, your true heart. He knows if you are sincere or not. He is the only one who can Judge whether your "Works or Fruits" are Worthy for repentance."

And given that I trust this God and His Word's, it is my answer as well.

In the answer you gave, it seems to suggest that God grants repentance only after works had been done. Yet even in Acts 26:20 which you quoted, we have repentance first and then do works meet for repentance.

And by your answer, apparently you have a different understanding on what it means  when it is said that God repentance and what it means when it is said that God may or may not grant repentance. So, I would suggest you go and read through this thread, as this had been explained.

Here's an excerpt from one of my post regarding this. Let me share it with you here, for your consideration.

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

1. "correcting those who are in opposition" - gives them the opportunity to repent
2. "if God perhaps will grant them repentance" - up to God to grant them repentance or not.
3. "so that they may know the truth" - if God grants them repentance, they will know the truth, if not, they won't

You said "You seem to be saying that God has to give them a changed mind but it is the gospel that does that. Man has to come to a change of mind God does not miraculously give it to him."

Repentance is a matter of one's will, heart, and mind. So, it touches upon the ability of one to will, his having a contrite heart, and moral consciousness. When scriptures says that God grants repentance, we can be sure that this is a working of God involving the will, heart, and mind, of the person. Now, to any one to whom God granted repentance, God had worked on his will, heart, and mind, that he comes to repentance, a change of mind. Now, it must be realized that such working of God is not one of forcing out one to repent, but one that effectively enables him to. How God does that, I could only speculate. One that I would point as an example is that of Paul. We learn in scriptures, that by God's wisdom, will, and purpose, he was granted repentance. God would have done the opposite, if He so willed, that is, to not grant Paul repentance. If God had not granted Paul repentance, Paul would not know the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing Paul from scriptures, and what zeal he have, he would had continued in what he believes is the right thing to do, and would continue persecuting Jesus and His church. His heart is hardened, so to speak. And them whose heart is hardened, like for example some of the Pharisees in the days of Jesus, are with eyes but can't see and with ears but can't hear. No amount of preaching, even with accompanying wonders and miraculous signs, will enable them to come to repentance. We had seen this in unbelieving Israel. Do you not understand that these people can have no repentance (metanoia), that is, a "change of mind"? That seems to be the case for man, in general.

Paul is just one case. Another are the about 3000 in Acts 2. You are another case, I am another case. The other millions are another million cases. In all of us who have come to repentance (change of mind), we owe it to God, God having granted each one of us, repentance, and that, repentance unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ. Like what we learn from 2 Tim.2:25, if God would not have granted us repentance, by and according to His will, we would not have known the truth, even Paul. But thanks, praise, and glory be to God, we had known the truth, for God had granted us repentance.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #793 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 12:46:10 »
Grace and Michael lets start with this and go from there. "I will agree that Acts 1:5 and Mark 1:8 are the same."

Concerning the matter that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit, I would agree. But you must realize that Jesus said what He said in Acts 1:5, not with reference to what John said in Mark 1:8. What He tells his disciples comes directly from Him, as a telling of what is about to happen in the next few days ahead. And concerning the matter of when that actually happened, points to Acts 2:1-4
 
Now ask yourself this. In those passages what is the spirit being talked of according to all that is mentioned in John concerning what spirit God (Jesus) is going to send? If you read the gospel of John it is made clear that God is promising the indwelling spirit. It is the well of living water the comforter the spirit of truth as seen in the following passages.

John 14:26 (KJV)
26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:16-17 (KJV)
16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it : him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:7 (KJV)
7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Romans 8:9 (KJV)
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 (KJV)
30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Which produces fruit in us from within as seen here Galatians 5:22-25 (KJV)
22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

That is the spirit that John was unknowing talking of for it was not made clear to him but the gospel of John made clear.

You insist the the spirit that was poured out for everyone was that of empowering the upon but you can not find scripture support that it is the empowering that John was talking about because it is not poured out on everyone and not even if you beg for it according to scripture and that is easily proven by scripture but you can not grasp it. I have shown you that the indwelling is the promise to All men and is given to all that submit to Christ  in the baptism in Christ name.

You said "In those passages what is the spirit being talked of according to all that is mentioned in John concerning what spirit God (Jesus) is going to send?"

In Acts 1:4-8 we read "And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”. So, considering this, and with regards your question, the following scriptures point to the answer:

Luke 24:49
49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Acts 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Therefore, the answer to your question is the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of truth, the Helper/Comforter), is the Spirit that was promised to be sent to them.

Now, how about with the other believers, Jews and Gentiles alike? Was there a promise like unto that? What Spirit will be sent to them, whom they shall receive? Is it the same as with those concerned in Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, and Acts 2:1-4?

John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Based on the above quoted passages, there also is a promise to all believers. And that is the same Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

You said "If you read the gospel of John it is made clear that God is promising the indwelling spirit." If you read all the passages I cited and quoted above, it is clear that the promise is simply the Holy Spirit to be sent to both the chosen apostles and all believers to receive.

Now, we know who the Holy Spirit is and what He was sent for to do, in the same way also we know who the Son is and what He was sent for to do. Consider then the promise concerning the Messiah. The promise is not really what He was sent for to do, but rather, it is the Messiah Himself that is the promise. Jesus' works, what He did, such as choosing the twelve and making them disciples, teaching them, preaching the kingdom of God, preaching repentance, raising the dead, healing the sick and various other miraculous works, even giving His life as a sacrifice for sin on the cross, and so much more, aren't the promise, rather He is the promise. Likewise then, concerning the Holy Spirit, the promise is not really what He was sent for to do, but rather, it is the Holy Spirit Himself that is the promise. And likewise also, the Holy Spirit's works, what He does, such as His "coming upon", His "infilling", His "indwelling", His distributing of spiritual gifts like the speaking in different tongues, healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, His convicting the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, and so much more, aren't the promise, rather He is the promise.

I can not find scripture that supports your view that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is for all and the one of Act 2:1-4 but really quite the opposite.

Lets look into it. It is actually the first of only 2 events of this manner and is the first fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32 where God poured out hi spirit on ALL mankind. The Apostles is the only one that got the empowering while ALL else got the promised indwelling. How do we know this? It is clearly answered in the word.

Peter tells what they are witnessing is the promised outpouring that Joel told of. It was also an answer to Acts 1:8 so they could be a witness that the gospel has came full blown into power. Even though they Killed their Messiah The salvation is ready available. there power was a sign as foretold in Mark 16:17-20

The power only came upon the Apostles and it is clear because when God pours out the spirit upon the gentiles to finish the prophecy of Joel Peter has to look all the way back to when it was first poured out upon them. Everyone else received the indwelling as promised  according to Paul when he verified it in Ephesians 1:13-14 above. If it was the baptism of the Holy Ghost as in Acts 2:1-4 as you claim then Peter would not have to have looked all the way back to his day. that only makes sense if you ponder it out.  If you were correct and the baptism that Jesus was to baptize with was that of Acts 2:1-4 then everyone would have been baptized in like manner but Peter says different.

You said "I can not find scripture that supports your view that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is for all and the one of Act 2:1-4 but really quite the opposite."

Mark 1:5 Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Regarding baptism with the Holy Spirit, don't think that it is the "Spirit upon". For there is a lot more than that, that the baptism with the Holy Spirit does to the believer. But what I was saying is that, Acts 1:5 speaks of baptism with the Holy Spirit. And Acts 1:5 is pointing to the Pentecost event in Acts 2:1-4. Now, there is no reason for me to not believe that what happened in Acts 2:1-4 isn't baptism with the Holy Spirit. But that does not mean to say that, baptism with the Holy Spirit must be exactly just as it happened in Acts 2:1-4. Now what is said that transpired there in this baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:1-4 is that they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Regarding the speaking in different languages, such was a clear manifestation of the Holy Spirit's presence, and an instant evidence for them to behold, that they have received the promised Holy Spirit, just as Jesus told them they would. This is what was told them in Acts 1:8, what you refer to as the "Spirit upon".   

Let me ask, in your reading of scriptures, had you read about the disciples concerned in Acts 2:1-4, regarding their baptism in Christ's name? If you did, can you point me to the passage? In Acts 2:1-4, was there baptism in Christ's name of the disciples? If there wasn't, how would that make of the matter as to when baptism with the Holy Spirit is administered by Jesus Christ?


Online GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #794 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 13:09:28 »
Quote
In the answer you gave, it seems to suggest that God grants repentance only after works had been done. Yet even in Acts 26:20 which you quoted, we have repentance first and then do works meet for repentance.

It is no surprise that we see the scriptures differently.

If repentance means "change of mind", then in your religion what does that mean? I change "my mind" for a second, then change it back? I "change my mind" when things get tough, but change it back when the tough times are over?

First I must acknowledge that my mind isn't right and in need of change. Once that is done, what then? Do I just go find another different religion to join? Do I find some great popular "Theologian"  and follow his teaching?

No, I turn to God so I can know what changes are needed. I "change" from my mind and way of thinking, and I humble myself to God and His way of thinking. Then I produce fruits or works which are worthy of this repentance.

God sees the true intent of my heart. And judges according to my works as it is written.

How is this not the true Biblical answer to your question ""Why is it that God have to grant/give repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"





Online yogi bear

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #795 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 13:18:41 »
Michael sorry I have no more to say I have said all I can. I am now just repeating what I said so go back and read what all I have said for you are not really getting me and I can not swallow what you are feeding me so it is best I just let it be for I am exhausted.

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #796 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 13:26:22 »
It was Esau's father, not God, who refused his attempt to repent.

Heb. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God (Not Isaac as you preach) lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Seriously, 4WD, does your church really preach to the world that God didn't reject Esau, only Isaac did?

My oh my!!


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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #797 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 13:47:12 »
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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #798 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 14:45:17 »
Michael sorry I have no more to say I have said all I can. I am now just repeating what I said so go back and read what all I have said for you are not really getting me and I can not swallow what you are feeding me so it is best I just let it be for I am exhausted.

Have your rest then yogi.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #799 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 14:53:03 »
It is no surprise that we see the scriptures differently.

If repentance means "change of mind", then in your religion what does that mean? I change "my mind" for a second, then change it back? I "change my mind" when things get tough, but change it back when the tough times are over?

First I must acknowledge that my mind isn't right and in need of change. Once that is done, what then? Do I just go find another different religion to join? Do I find some great popular "Theologian"  and follow his teaching?

No, I turn to God so I can know what changes are needed. I "change" from my mind and way of thinking, and I humble myself to God and His way of thinking. Then I produce fruits or works which are worthy of this repentance.

God sees the true intent of my heart. And judges according to my works as it is written.

How is this not the true Biblical answer to your question ""Why is it that God have to grant/give repentance?  And if He must, why is it that He may or may not do so?"

You said "If repentance means "change of mind", then in your religion what does that mean?"

It seems to me, you talk of a different repentance. I talk of repentance unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ. In other words repentance to life.


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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #800 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 16:16:53 »
Seriously, 4WD, does your church really preach to the world that God didn't reject Esau, only Isaac did?
God FIRST rejected Esau, and based upon that he found NO repentance with his father, for he PROVED that he was a profaned person, or not among the very elect and if you are not among them, then you are wicked and profane.  God's mercy makes the difference between the two generations of people in this world and there are ONLY two of them.

GB, what does your religion teach concerning Esau and Jacob per Malachi and Paul?
Quote from: God speaking through Malachi
Malachi 1:2-4~"I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever."
Here Jacob being the very elect and Esau the children of perdition.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:13-16~"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
Concerning Hebrews 12:16,17....
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
His repentance was toward HIS FATHER, and his father rejected his repentance.
Quote from: Moses the man of God
Genesis 27:34-41~"And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father. And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing. And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me? And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son? And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept. And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck. And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob."
It is very clear that Esau was a profaned person and he only sought repentance toward his father, (NOWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES DO WE SEE HIM SEEKING ANYTHING FROM GOD.... NOT ONE THING)  and that only for earthly blessings~His mother and Jacob desired the spiritual blessings of God and his mother BY FAITH lead him to secure the blessing based upon these words to her by God:
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 25:21-23~"And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."
One nation beloved of God and CHOSEN to be blessed spiritually; the other nation, was left to themselves and rejected solely based upon God's sovereign right to dispense his mercy to whom he will and whom he will he hardens, OR, leave them to their own sinful, wicked lust of this world.

So, GB, what does your religion have to say about Esau and Jacob? Based upon these few scriptures above.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 16:26:40 by RB »

Online GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #801 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 16:33:38 »
GB, what does your religion teach concerning Esau and Jacob per Malachi and Paul?  Here Jacob being the very elect and Esau the children of perdition. Concerning Hebrews 12:16,17....His repentance was toward HIS FATHER, and his father rejected his repentance. It is very clear that Esau was a profaned person and he only sought repentance toward his father, and that only for earthly blessings~His mother and Jacob desired the spiritual blessings of God and his mother BY FAITH lead him to secure the blessing based upon these words to her by God:  One nation beloved of God and CHOSEN to be blessed spiritually; the other nation, was left to themselves and rejected solely based upon God's sovereign right to dispense his mercy to whom he will and whom he will he hardens, OR, leave them to their own sinful, wicked lust of this world.

So, GB, what does your religion have to say about Esau and Jacob? Based upon these few scriptures above.

I posted God's Word on the matter.

Heb. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God (Not Isaac) lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Now you and 4WD can preach that Esau "failed of the Grace of Isaac" if that get's the money flowing to your coffers. But it seems quite clear that Esau's actions found disfavor with God, who the Blessings were from in the first place.

The fact that you would even argue this point is further proof that you don't have a clue what you are even talking about, a truth that has become more evident over time.






Online GB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #802 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 16:50:31 »
You said "If repentance means "change of mind", then in your religion what does that mean?"

It seems to me, you talk of a different repentance. I talk of repentance unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ. In other words repentance to life.

I fully understand why folks get frustrated with you. You continually move the bar.

YOU SAID; Repentance (Gr. metanoia) = a change of mind.

The Greek is more detailed than that, but essentially the same. Not worth arguing over. I make a post in reply and you ignore it, I make another post in reply to you in more, very detailed explanation of the answer I gave to your question, with scriptures which detail the reason I give the answer, and you still ignore it.

You chase your own tail round and round and neither YB nor I can detail what you are even asking.

You asked a question, I answered it. You gave your definition of repentance, I used it in my answer. You asked again, and I detailed more specifically the answer I gave.

You don't believe the answer or the Scriptures I posted which explain the answer I gave, I'm OK with that.

If you would like to actually address the answer I gave to the question you asked, instead of redefining the question, or changing your own definition of the words you use, I am glad to continue.

Otherwise, I'm not chasing your own tail with you.












Offline Michael2012

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #803 on: Sun Oct 13, 2019 - 20:56:23 »
I fully understand why folks get frustrated with you. You continually move the bar.

YOU SAID; Repentance (Gr. metanoia) = a change of mind.

The Greek is more detailed than that, but essentially the same. Not worth arguing over. I make a post in reply and you ignore it, I make another post in reply to you in more, very detailed explanation of the answer I gave to your question, with scriptures which detail the reason I give the answer, and you still ignore it.

You chase your own tail round and round and neither YB nor I can detail what you are even asking.

You asked a question, I answered it. You gave your definition of repentance, I used it in my answer. You asked again, and I detailed more specifically the answer I gave.

You don't believe the answer or the Scriptures I posted which explain the answer I gave, I'm OK with that.

If you would like to actually address the answer I gave to the question you asked, instead of redefining the question, or changing your own definition of the words you use, I am glad to continue.

Otherwise, I'm not chasing your own tail with you.

You said "The Greek is more detailed than that, but essentially the same. Not worth arguing over. I make a post in reply and you ignore it, I make another post in reply to you in more, very detailed explanation of the answer I gave to your question, with scriptures which detail the reason I give the answer, and you still ignore it. "

Nothing but false accusations. Double lies in fact.

Even on your very first post commenting on one of my reply post to yogi, I had already made addressed the matter about what repentance means. Here's an excerpt:

No, repentance is not something requested. I think you are mistaking repentance for asking God's mercy and forgiveness.

And this, you had ignored. You just went on and carry on with your definition and take of what repentance is. That means, all that what you are saying in connection to it becomes senseless to me as they are based on an erroneous concept of repentance, which you make out to be something that is requested. So, how would you expect me to engaged you with that, other than point out to you the error you have regarding repentance?

Regarding the questions, I followed them up to you since they were part of what you quoted from one of my post to yogi. But only after I have pointed out to you that repentance is not something requested, the very error you have with what repentance is to you. For I thought you want to deal with them by your getting involved in the discussion between me and yogi.

But again, since you had ignored my refutation of your concept of repentance, your attempts to answer the questions turns out to be out of tune, because of the erroneous concept of repentance you hold to.

So, I keep bringing up the matter of what repentance is, and not a word commenting about what you say is your answer to the questions. For it would be senseless for me to comment, when all is said is based on an erroneous concept of what repentance is. And this error, you just keep carrying on with it, even while I have pointed the error out to you, of which you just seem to ignore.

So, if you wanted an honest exchange, I suggest you address the issue brought out before you, such as the issue on what repentance is. For the questions asked, which are in connection with it, carries not your erroneous concept of repentance. 

Offline RB

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Re: Power of the BLOOD!
« Reply #804 on: Yesterday at 05:21:50 »
Quote from: GB link=topic=104645.msg1055149809#msg1055149809 date=1571002418[size=10pt
I posted God's Word on the matter.

Heb. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God (Not Isaac) lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.[/size]
You posted God's word on the matter...really? I was careful to post Esau's WORDS to HIS FATHER the very words that the writer of Hebrews was giving reference to. So, I ask you, to WHOM was Esau speaking to when he said:
Quote
"And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also,
Also, show me ONE scripture where Esau sought repentance FROM GOD, just one. You do a good job of convincing yourself that you are right and others have the religion of the land~that's called "SELF-deception" which is the worse kind of deception!

Besides, you NEVER attempted to answer my question to you:
Quote from: RB Reply #800 on: Yesterday at 16:16:53
So, GB, what does your religion have to say about Esau and Jacob? Based upon these few scriptures above.
In particular:
Quote from: RB Reply #800 on: Yesterday at 16:16:53
Romans 9:13-16~"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."~"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
I'm waiting to hear what your self proclaim religion has to say.