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Author Topic: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.  (Read 577 times)

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Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #35 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 08:53:43 »
My experience with people who are prone to telling these white lies even to protect the feelings of others is that neither is truly honest with each other about things that are important either.  They walk on egg shells around each other.  Not healthy.  Whole "binders" (to use a Romneyism) of subjects then become off limits.

I am not saying I go around telling people every single thing that I think.  If they ask me though, they will get honesty.


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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #35 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 08:53:43 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #36 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 08:58:50 »
Texas Conservative,
Good insight. Many people don't want honesty. Reminds me of that Billy Joel song.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #36 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 08:58:50 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #37 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:01:40 »
Everyone, does anyone address or confront professing Christians who lie to protect themselves and seem to be okay with it?

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #37 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:01:40 »

Offline mommydi

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #38 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:13:44 »
There is a time when saying nothing is the better choice.

Agreed.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #38 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:13:44 »

Offline mommydi

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #39 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:19:19 »
Everyone, does anyone address or confront professing Christians who lie to protect themselves and seem to be okay with it?
I have, and it did no good. I doubt I'll ever do it again.

There are many reasons people lie. Some lie to protect themselves - especially loathsome in the "he/she made me do it" situations. Some lie to promote themselves. Some lie to bring others down and lift themselves up - taken to the extreme in the practice of gaslighting.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:22:20 by mommydi »

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #39 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:19:19 »



Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #40 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:24:04 »
I have, and it did no good. I doubt I'll ever do it again.

There are many reasons people lie. Some lie to protect themselves - especially loathsome in the "he/she made me do it" situations. Some lie to promote themselves. Some lie to bring others down and lift themselves up - taken to the extreme in the practice of gaslighting.

In the case of gaslighting and those with narcissism, I think some of those folks eventually believe their own lies.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #40 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:24:04 »

Offline mommydi

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #41 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:28:59 »
My experience with people who are prone to telling these white lies even to protect the feelings of others is that neither is truly honest with each other about things that are important either.  They walk on egg shells around each other.  Not healthy.  Whole "binders" (to use a Romneyism) of subjects then become off limits.

I am not saying I go around telling people every single thing that I think.  If they ask me though, they will get honesty.

There's a little something referred to as discernment. Like the old song says, "Know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run." If someone is down and depressed, and asks "How do I look?" I'm not going to answer, "Like death warmed over." It has nothing to do with walking on eggshells and more to do with decency.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #42 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:36:21 »
mommydi,
Quote
I have, and it did no good. I doubt I'll ever do it again.
I commend you for your courage. It's always uncomfortable confronting people who are obstinate, defensive, belligerent, or otherwise stuck on themselves. But it is obeying the scripture Hebrews 3:12.

Quote
There are many reasons people lie. Some lie to protect themselves - especially loathsome in the "he/she made me do it" situations. Some lie to promote themselves. Some lie to bring others down and lift themselves up - taken to the extreme in the practice of gaslighting.
Oh you know about gaslighting. Poor girl, I hope you didn't have to learn from first-hand experience. If a person is trying to Gaslight another, it goes Way Beyond just lying. It's a whole campaign trying to make them think they're crazy. If someone wants to confront such a person, I think it'd be safest to do so in public as a group.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:45:07 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #43 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:41:59 »
mommydi,
Quote
There's a little something referred to as discernment. Like the old song says, "Know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run." If someone is down and depressed, and asks "How do I look?" I'm not going to answer, "Like death warmed over." It has nothing to do with walking on eggshells and more to do with decency.
Would gender make a difference? If it's your male cousin who's down and depressed, and he looks ridiculous about to go on a date, would you spare his feelings and tell him he looks nice? I'm not trying to counter you, just providing a different scenario, lol. I know, discernment would tell you to be honest in this case.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #43 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 09:41:59 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #44 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 10:06:50 »
There's a little something referred to as discernment. Like the old song says, "Know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run." If someone is down and depressed, and asks "How do I look?" I'm not going to answer, "Like death warmed over." It has nothing to do with walking on eggshells and more to do with decency.

It's not much an issue with men.  I don't get other men asking me "how do I look?"  And if it was a woman, unless they looked like a hot mess, I am fashion retarded and would probably respond honestly with "I don't know."

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #45 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 10:10:40 »
mommydi,
If a person's memories have changed for reasons other than lying, then it is not a lie if they say something that is not true. They are just mistaken. If a person lies so much as to convince himself of those very lies, then it still a lie.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 10:17:54 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #46 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 10:12:43 »
Texas Conservative,
I agree.

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #47 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 14:32:42 »
Everyone, does anyone address or confront professing Christians who lie to protect themselves and seem to be okay with it?

Are you Okay that Abraham lied that Sarah was his sister and not his wife? OKay... don't go all technical on me and say they were not Christians.... Just answer.

Here again, I say it depends on who, what, where, why and how. And I know I am talking ad nauseum about me but this is the only reference point I have.

Now before I considered myself to be a Christian in the way I am now I was in the presence of a man. Alone. In my mid 20s.
I am not going into the specifics of this other then to say he was a lot stronger than I was and fighting him off was a real struggle.

I simply could not get away and I was told I could leave only after.

I tried a last ditch effort to stop this.

I told him fine but it was his problem because I was in a full blown episode of genital herpes , so come and get me, and I'll be happy to show him my lesions.

It stopped him cold.

And I finally got away.

Should I have let him have his way just to have not lied?

And you know what... I do think this is a problem that does affect women far more then men.

Though I suspect you men are more likely to stretch the truth in business more and have more opportunity for that maybe?



And I left.



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #48 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 16:11:16 »
Ginger Rella,
I'd love to answer this one. As result of that lie, the guy who took Sarah, when he returned Sarah, also gave them a few female slaves, one of which was Hagar, the mother of Ishmael, the ancestor of Mohammed, from where we get Islam, and we are still dealing with the consequences of that lie today.

My condolences that you face that situation.

I agree with you that men would be prone to lying in business situations, but I don't know how it would compare with women.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 16:15:04 by e.r.m. »

Online NorrinRadd

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #49 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 16:44:16 »
What about this practice by certain religious movements known as "speaking things into existence" or "positive declarations" which are basically lies, if you think about it.
Examples-
If you have an illness - you would tell yourself and others you're healthy.
If you're broke - you tell yourself and others you have money.
If you're depressed - you tell yourself and others you're happy.

It goes beyond what we typically think of as positive thinking strategies by using lies to hopefully force these positive things to actually take place .

Those churches usually self-identify with one or more of the labels, "Faith," "Word," "Word Faith," or "Word of Faith."  I attended one for roughly ten years, ca. 1984 - 1994.  While I certainly no longer agree with that theology, I will say that it is somewhat more nuanced than your summary.

As a brief example, we were taught that if we were sick and acknowledged, "I'm sick," we would be giving additional power to the sickness.  But if we said, "I'm NOT sick," we would indeed be lying.  But if we said something like, "I believe I'm healed according to 1 Pet. 2:24," we would not be lying but would be expressing faith, and the physical reality would eventually "manifest."

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #50 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 17:02:17 »
Ginger Rella,
I'd love to answer this one. As result of that lie, the guy who took Sarah, when he returned Sarah, also gave them a few female slaves, one of which was Hagar, the mother of Ishmael, the ancestor of Mohammed, from where we get Islam, and we are still dealing with the consequences of that lie today.



First, if that had not happened it could well be that Abraham would have had no sons and therefore no nations leading back to him.

Fact is... Abraham was rewarded with Ishmael when Sarah could not have any.

So could this have been a plan of God's?

Yes, we are to deal with the consequences of that today.

Could that also be one of God's plans.

Seems like everything worked out to out mutual disdain for each other.....

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #51 on: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 18:00:30 »
Ginger Rella,
It's a situation born first out of a lie, and then out of lack of faith in God to have a child through Hagar. God was kind to Hagar and Ishmael because God is kind. Abraham and Sarah got out of that initial situation because God confronted the man who took Sarah. I believe God would have protected them if they had been truthful or if she had worn a veil.

I believe when a person is used to lying they find themselves in situations more often where lying seems necessary. I believe when a person is used to being truthful, somehow they don't find themselves in that kind of situation as often. They either consciously or unconsciously create an environment around themselves where people expect them to be truthful and are okay with it. It's so much harder to tell the truth after one has already lied.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 10, 2018 - 18:50:22 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #52 on: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 13:33:03 »
NorrinRadd,
Quote
I'm taking the liberty of going in a somewhat different direction, justified by the wording of the Subject line.

Does that verse from Revelation mean that Rahab is doomed to the fires of Mordor, so to speak, for hiding the spies and lying about it?

Does it mean that the spies themselves are damned as "cowardly" because they hid?

Are people beset with anxiety and phobias -- an unpleasant state in the here and now -- also doomed to damnation as cowards in the age to come?
I doubt that Rahab is doomed to the fires of Mordor. This thread is "about" professing Christians who lie for self serving reasons without concience.

Anyway the spies hid, not lied, and I don't think people beset with clinic anxiety and phobias qualify as cowards, although in can at times cross over into cowardice.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 11, 2018 - 13:36:32 by e.r.m. »

Offline Samuels

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Re: Revelation 21:8 and White lies.
« Reply #53 on: Mon Nov 12, 2018 - 07:14:29 »

Yes, Revelation 21:7-8 (like so many other NT verses)
applies to EVERYONE ... including BACs!

 

     
anything