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Offline soterion

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Romans 9-11
« on: Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 21:11:50 »
In the http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/divine-revelation-104238/ thread, the topic of how God is working with Israel, according to Romans chapters 9-11, has been coming up. I believe it would be good to just have a separate discussion on that topic.

I will start it here with the last two posts I made in that other discussion and with the one challenging response made so far.

Regarding "fullness," as it is being used in Romans 11, consider the following:

Romans 11:11-15.
I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.

For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


The contrast is between the fall of Israel and their fullness, in verse 12. Fullness is being used as opposite of fall. We see this in verse 15. Their casting away is contrasted with their being received. The terms "fall" and "casting away" are referring to the same thing, and the terms "their fullness" and "receiving of them" are referring to the same thing.

I have to argue that the way fullness is being used in verse 12 is exactly as it is being used in verse 25. In addition, I have to argue that what Paul is saying these people are being included in, or received into, is the salvation he mentions in verse 11.


Regarding this hardening of Israel, consider the following:

Romans 11:25-27.
For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

It seems to me from the passage that this hardening is supposed to ultimately result in the salvation of the Jew (along with the Gentile, of course). Thus, it seems to me that this being saved is subsequent to the hardening. How can they be saved if God is keeping an imposed hardening in place?

Now, we all know that the Deliverer that comes out of Zion is Jesus. We know that it is by means of His death, burial, and resurrection, and through each person's faith in Him, that He turns ungodliness away from anybody and how He takes away sin. I have to conclude that the hardening took place before the crucifixion of Jesus, and it no doubt leads up to and culminates in His death. What more tragic an expression of rejection and hardness than to demand His death on the cross?

I have to go on and argue that His resurrection and the gospel preaching afterward is when this hardness was lifted, done away (however you want to word it), and that salvation has come to Israel.

Of course, this same salvation has come exactly the same way to the Gentile, but because of Roman Gentile prejudice, Paul is separating the two peoples to finally explain that what God wants for one, and how He is doing it, is exactly the same thing He wants for the other and He is doing it exactly the same way. This is how Paul is dealing with the Gentile conceit in this section of scripture.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 21:15:58 by soterion »

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Romans 9-11
« on: Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 21:11:50 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 21:14:23 »
Regarding this hardening of Israel, consider the following:

Romans 11:25-27.
For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

It seems to me from the passage that this hardening is supposed to ultimately result in the salvation of the Jew (along with the Gentile, of course). Thus, it seems to me that this being saved is subsequent to the hardening. How can they be saved if God is keeping an imposed hardening in place?

Now, we all know that the Deliverer that comes out of Zion is Jesus. We know that it is by means of His death, burial, and resurrection, and through each person's faith in Him, that He turns ungodliness away from anybody and how He takes away sin. I have to conclude that the hardening took place before the crucifixion of Jesus, and it no doubt leads up to and culminates in His death. What more tragic an expression of rejection and hardness than to demand His death on the cross?

I have to go on and argue that His resurrection and the gospel preaching afterward is when this hardness was lifted, done away (however you want to word it), and that salvation has come to Israel.

Of course, this same salvation has come exactly the same way to the Gentile, but because of Roman Gentile prejudice, Paul is separating the two peoples to finally explain that what God wants for one, and how He is doing it, is exactly the same thing He wants for the other and He is doing it exactly the same way. This is how Paul is dealing with the Gentile conceit in this section of scripture.

Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 21:14:23 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 21:59:39 »
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Romans 11:5-8.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

Okay, let's look at something in the Greek grammar first:

The passage says that, at this present time, there is a remnant according to God's election. Paul goes on in verse 7 to say that the rest were hardened. The Greek tense for "were hardened" points to an action that occurred in the past, not still going on. Thus, in verse 8, what "God gave them...unto this very day" refers to what He did with them in that past time when they were hardened. In other words, Paul says that a remnant exists at this present time; He is not saying that the rest are being hardened at this present time. If you try and make "unto this very day" refer to the time of Paul's writing, then it will defeat the grammar regarding their hardening in past time.

However, if you find no credibility or convincing with the grammar, then let me appeal to what is being said in the context in English:

The purpose of the hardening was to bring the Gentiles to salvation (Romans 11:11-12). They came to salvation through first century gospel preaching by the apostles. Why should the hardening go beyond that if it's purpose was accomplished? Along that same line, the salvation of the Gentile was to spur the Jew with jealousy unto his salvation (11:11-15). Well, the Gentile has been enjoying God's grace and mercy for the last two thousand plus years. Wouldn't the purpose of their salvation, with regard to the Jew, have been accomplished already...a very long time ago? If the Jew is still being hardened, then that would be saying that two thousand years of Gentile salvation has failed to serve its purpose in this regard.

Also, if the hardening ends with "all Israel shall be saved" (11:26), and if that phrase means their being saved at the end of history upon the return of Christ, then you have two problems. First, right after Paul speaks of this salvation being offered/given to Israel, he goes on and writes "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins." This seems to me to be how God is going to fulfill His promise to save Israel.

Therefore, that promise of a Deliverer who will turn away ungodliness from Jacob and take away their sin is to take place after the hardening is over. Well, who is that Deliverer and how does He turn away ungodliness from anybody and how does He take away anybody's sins? More importantly, when do those things take place, or when did they begin?

I have to submit that Jesus is that Deliverer and His work of turning people away from ungodliness and taking away their sins began on the cross and continues on afterward. It is all during this time that God is reaching out to all, including the Jew, with His grace unto the salvation of any and all who believe.

The second problem you should have, if this hardening is supposed to still be going on and the saving of Israel is supposed to take place in the end, is this: what of all those who were hardened by God between the first century and now who were apparently kept from believing? Were they never subjects of God's promise to save Israel? Did God make that promise only to the last generation of Jews and the rest were delegated to automatic condemnation? Do the words of 11:26-27 not apply to any of the Jews but for those at the end?

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jul 11, 2019 - 21:59:39 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 01:55:09 »
Romans 11:5-8.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

Okay, let's look at something in the Greek grammar first:

The passage says that, at this present time, there is a remnant according to God's election. Paul goes on in verse 7 to say that the rest were hardened. The Greek tense for "were hardened" points to an action that occurred in the past, not still going on. Thus, in verse 8, what "God gave them...unto this very day" refers to what He did with them in that past time when they were hardened. In other words, Paul says that a remnant exists at this present time; He is not saying that the rest are being hardened at this present time. If you try and make "unto this very day" refer to the time of Paul's writing, then it will defeat the grammar regarding their hardening in past time.

Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

The mere fact that Paul said "at this present time there is a remnant" strongly indicates the present situation, at least at that time. A remnant speaks well of a few chosen remaining from among the rest of a whole. And with Paul speaking of such a remnant of Israel at that present time, tells us, in relation to the context, that the rest remains in the hardened state. That is, while that scriptures, which Paul quoted from the Old testament scriptures, may have begun some time, many years, from the past, Paul intimates here that the rest of Israel then alive at the present time, still is in such a condition ~ Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear. The proof of that was very much obvious (even after Christ was crucified), since Paul so tells us his great desire of wanting for them to accept Jesus Christ and be saved. We can see how Paul expressed his great sorrow and unceasing anguish in his heart, wishing even that he were cursed and cut off from Christ for their sake, in Rom. 9. 

However, if you find no credibility or convincing with the grammar, then let me appeal to what is being said in the context in English:

The purpose of the hardening was to bring the Gentiles to salvation (Romans 11:11-12). They came to salvation through first century gospel preaching by the apostles. Why should the hardening go beyond that if it's purpose was accomplished? Along that same line, the salvation of the Gentile was to spur the Jew with jealousy unto his salvation (11:11-15). Well, the Gentile has been enjoying God's grace and mercy for the last two thousand plus years. Wouldn't the purpose of their salvation, with regard to the Jew, have been accomplished already...a very long time ago? If the Jew is still being hardened, then that would be saying that two thousand years of Gentile salvation has failed to serve its purpose in this regard.

Acts 13:45-47
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

This passage tells us that it was at this time that Paul had pronounced basically Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ, and that salvation has come to the Gentiles, as a result. This could be said as the purpose of Israel's hardening. But this could not be said as the whole purpose. The equally significant other purpose of the hardening was to provoke them to jealousy ~ the end of which is their salvation. Paul intimated this in v. 14, and I quote "if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them". So while it can be said that the purpose of bringing salvation to the Gentiles had, at the time in Acts 13 had been accomplished, the other purpose of bringing the Israelites to jealousy unto their salvation apparently had not yet taken place. For until to this day even, Israel, taken as a whole, continue in the rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

Also, if the hardening ends with "all Israel shall be saved" (11:26), and if that phrase means their being saved at the end of history upon the return of Christ, then you have two problems. First, right after Paul speaks of this salvation being offered/given to Israel, he goes on and writes "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins." This seems to me to be how God is going to fulfill His promise to save Israel.

Therefore, that promise of a Deliverer who will turn away ungodliness from Jacob and take away their sin is to take place after the hardening is over. Well, who is that Deliverer and how does He turn away ungodliness from anybody and how does He take away anybody's sins? More importantly, when do those things take place, or when did they begin?

I have to submit that Jesus is that Deliverer and His work of turning people away from ungodliness and taking away their sins began on the cross and continues on afterward. It is all during this time that God is reaching out to all, including the Jew, with His grace unto the salvation of any and all who believe.

The second problem you should have, if this hardening is supposed to still be going on and the saving of Israel is supposed to take place in the end, is this: what of all those who were hardened by God between the first century and now who were apparently kept from believing? Were they never subjects of God's promise to save Israel? Did God make that promise only to the last generation of Jews and the rest were delegated to automatic condemnation? Do the words of 11:26-27 not apply to any of the Jews but for those at the end?

Regarding what you say is the first problem:

You said "It is all during this time that God is reaching out to all, including the Jew, with His grace unto the salvation of any and all who believe." See my post above regarding Acts 13:45-47. There, Paul speak of the necessity that the word of God should be spoken to Israel first. Why is that? For obvious reason. Their (Israel as a whole) rejection of Jesus Christ was a necessary sign, even, a necessary event, that Paul, then turns to the Gentiles, bringing the salvation of God to them.

Regarding the second problem:

You asked "what of all those who were hardened by God between the first century and now who were apparently kept from believing?" Perhaps, you might also want to include also those who were hardened by God between the time of Moses and Jesus, since God had begun such hardening perhaps even at that time. You see, as I have pointed out about those who were hardened in one of my post in the other thread, that their having been hardened, not that they were not blind or hard as they were. But that, God had bound them in the sin that they have chosen for themselves. So, it is wrong to say that they were kept from believing because they were hardened. No sir. They were hard as they were and so will not believe. This renders your other questions as also addressed by that. God said this situation of Israel will come to an end. Paul says concerning this "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". Paul said, "in this way all Israel will be saved". "All Israel" means Israel as a whole, in contrast to the relatively small believing remnant of Jews. The context makes this clear. 

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 01:55:09 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 07:04:11 »
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

The mere fact that Paul said "at this present time there is a remnant" strongly indicates the present situation, at least at that time. A remnant speaks well of a few chosen remaining from among the rest of a whole. And with Paul speaking of such a remnant of Israel at that present time, tells us, in relation to the context, that the rest remains in the hardened state. That is, while that scriptures, which Paul quoted from the Old testament scriptures, may have begun some time, many years, from the past, Paul intimates here that the rest of Israel then alive at the present time, still is in such a condition ~ Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear. The proof of that was very much obvious (even after Christ was crucified), since Paul so tells us his great desire of wanting for them to accept Jesus Christ and be saved. We can see how Paul expressed his great sorrow and unceasing anguish in his heart, wishing even that he were cursed and cut off from Christ for their sake, in Rom. 9. 

That there is at the present time, from Paul's point of view of writing, a remnant does not require that the active hardening of Israel is still an ongoing process at the present time.

Quote
Acts 13:45-47
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

This passage tells us that it was at this time that Paul had pronounced basically Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ, and that salvation has come to the Gentiles, as a result. This could be said as the purpose of Israel's hardening. But this could not be said as the whole purpose. The equally significant other purpose of the hardening was to provoke them to jealousy ~ the end of which is their salvation. Paul intimated this in v. 14, and I quote "if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them". So while it can be said that the purpose of bringing salvation to the Gentiles had, at the time in Acts 13 had been accomplished, the other purpose of bringing the Israelites to jealousy unto their salvation apparently had not yet taken place. For until to this day even, Israel, taken as a whole, continue in the rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

You are misidentifying Israel.

Romans 9:6-8.
But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

There is zero promise in scripture that God is going to save the nation as a whole. That "all Israel shall be saved" is a promise to save those among the fleshly Israelites who accept the Messiah according to the gospel.

Quote
Regarding what you say is the first problem:

You said "It is all during this time that God is reaching out to all, including the Jew, with His grace unto the salvation of any and all who believe." See my post above regarding Acts 13:45-47. There, Paul speak of the necessity that the word of God should be spoken to Israel first. Why is that? For obvious reason. Their (Israel as a whole) rejection of Jesus Christ was a necessary sign, even, a necessary event, that Paul, then turns to the Gentiles, bringing the salvation of God to them.

You did not address the problem at all. Here is my question: When does the Deliverer's work of turning ungodliness away from Jacob and taking away their sins begin? How does He do it, and when does He do it?

Inasmuch as this takes place is after the hardening of Israel is over, then how you answer will tell us when you believe the hardening of Israel is over and done with.

Quote
Regarding the second problem:

You asked "what of all those who were hardened by God between the first century and now who were apparently kept from believing?" Perhaps, you might also want to include also those who were hardened by God between the time of Moses and Jesus, since God had begun such hardening perhaps even at that time. You see, as I have pointed out about those who were hardened in one of my post in the other thread, that their having been hardened, not that they were not blind or hard as they were. But that, God had bound them in the sin that they have chosen for themselves. So, it is wrong to say that they were kept from believing because they were hardened. No sir. They were hard as they were and so will not believe. This renders your other questions as also addressed by that. God said this situation of Israel will come to an end. Paul says concerning this "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". Paul said, "in this way all Israel will be saved". "All Israel" means Israel as a whole, in contrast to the relatively small believing remnant of Jews. The context makes this clear.

Well, of course Israel hardened itself. I will address that in my next post. If the hardening of Israel results in their unbelief, then if we have Israelites who formerly did not believe start turning to Christ for salvation, would that not indicate they are no longer hardened?

At the end of you post you are still misidentifying Israel, and calling for the nation as whole to turn around. Nope, there is no such promise from God.

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 07:04:11 »



Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 07:38:25 »
Regarding the hardening of Israel, what is that talking about?

It is tied to what Paul refers to as their fall in Romans 11:11-12. It is also tied to their being cast away in verse 15. In following verses it is tied to branches being broken off the tree.

I believe we can go to Romans 9:30-10:3 to find out where Israel went astray unto their rejection by God.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works.

They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

Brethren, my heart’s desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.


In a word, Israel was guilty of self-righteousness. Their rejection of God's righteousness is why God rejected them. I think some good questions to answer are, "When did all of this take place?" and "What form did the fall or rejection of Israel take?"

It seems to me that the rejection of Israel, their being broken off the tree, has to do with Israel as a nation being the people of God. Since their fall results in the inclusion of the Gentiles, then whatever happened that introduced the Gentiles into God's people is what took place to cast out Israel as God's unique people from among all the peoples of the world.

I have to say it was the coming of the Messiah and the gospel age that resulted in this change. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so that any and all who believe the gospel are included among the people of God. Israel, as a nation, is no longer the exclusive people of God.

This fall, or casting away, is also tied into the concept of condemnation. In Romans 11, this fall is set against Gentile salvation, and it is described later as being cut off from the tree. Being cut off from among the people of God means condemnation. Thus, any acceptance of Israelites into the tree, their being received (11:15) and grafted back in (11:23), means their salvation.

This hardening of Israel is referring to the hardening, or blinding, of those who already do not believe. God will give to somebody what he or she already wants. In Romans 9, Paul used Pharaoh as an example of God's executive decision to work His will among people. God did not harden Pharaoh against his will; Pharaoh had already hardened his heart against God's express will as spoken through Moses.

As for whether the hardening is still going on, I still believe that 1) the purpose of the gospel is to reach any and all who will believe from among all people, and that 2) to the extent that unbelieving Jews can be grafted back in to the olive tree through believing the gospel, then whatever corporate hardening God had in place for Israel is done, and was done at the beginning of the gospel age.

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jul 12, 2019 - 07:38:25 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 04:50:10 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 01:55:09
Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.

The mere fact that Paul said "at this present time there is a remnant" strongly indicates the present situation, at least at that time. A remnant speaks well of a few chosen remaining from among the rest of a whole. And with Paul speaking of such a remnant of Israel at that present time, tells us, in relation to the context, that the rest remains in the hardened state. That is, while that scriptures, which Paul quoted from the Old testament scriptures, may have begun some time, many years, from the past, Paul intimates here that the rest of Israel then alive at the present time, still is in such a condition ~ Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear. The proof of that was very much obvious (even after Christ was crucified), since Paul so tells us his great desire of wanting for them to accept Jesus Christ and be saved. We can see how Paul expressed his great sorrow and unceasing anguish in his heart, wishing even that he were cursed and cut off from Christ for their sake, in Rom. 9.
That there is at the present time, from Paul's point of view of writing, a remnant does not require that the active hardening of Israel is still an ongoing process at the present time.

Whether there is an ongoing active hardening or not does not take away Paul's telling us that there is a remnant. This means that Israel, as a whole, continues in unbelief, except for the "remnant", even at the present time. Now, let us not forget what the remnant is and who they are. They are no different from the rest of Israel. Had they not been chosen by God according to the election of grace, where do you think they would find themselves? No doubt, they too will be with the rest. This is really what should be taken of notice and significance here. What we have at the present time, of Israelites and Jews who believes in Jesus Christ, make up the remnants ~ remnants at the present time, as Paul also called those at his time. For this is one of the point that Paul was making in the first part of Romans 11, that God always reserve a remnant of Israel, chosen by grace. For if not, listen to what Isaiah said concerning Israel:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
    had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
    we would have been like Gomorrah.”

As to why God always reserve for Himself a remnant, chosen by grace, is exactly what Paul says in Rom. 11:28-29

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 04:51:23 »
Quote
Quote
Regarding what you say is the first problem:

You said "It is all during this time that God is reaching out to all, including the Jew, with His grace unto the salvation of any and all who believe." See my post above regarding Acts 13:45-47. There, Paul speak of the necessity that the word of God should be spoken to Israel first. Why is that? For obvious reason. Their (Israel as a whole) rejection of Jesus Christ was a necessary sign, even, a necessary event, that Paul, then turns to the Gentiles, bringing the salvation of God to them.
You did not address the problem at all. Here is my question: When does the Deliverer's work of turning ungodliness away from Jacob and taking away their sins begin? How does He do it, and when does He do it?

Inasmuch as this takes place is after the hardening of Israel is over, then how you answer will tell us when you believe the hardening of Israel is over and done with.

When does the Deliverer's work of turning ungodliness away from Jacob and taking away their sins begin? How does He do it, and when does He do it?

It will happen when Jesus Christ, the Messiah, will come, at His Second Coming.

Quote
Quote
Regarding the second problem:

You asked "what of all those who were hardened by God between the first century and now who were apparently kept from believing?" Perhaps, you might also want to include also those who were hardened by God between the time of Moses and Jesus, since God had begun such hardening perhaps even at that time. You see, as I have pointed out about those who were hardened in one of my post in the other thread, that their having been hardened, not that they were not blind or hard as they were. But that, God had bound them in the sin that they have chosen for themselves. So, it is wrong to say that they were kept from believing because they were hardened. No sir. They were hard as they were and so will not believe. This renders your other questions as also addressed by that. God said this situation of Israel will come to an end. Paul says concerning this "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". Paul said, "in this way all Israel will be saved". "All Israel" means Israel as a whole, in contrast to the relatively small believing remnant of Jews. The context makes this clear.

Well, of course Israel hardened itself. I will address that in my next post. If the hardening of Israel results in their unbelief, then if we have Israelites who formerly did not believe start turning to Christ for salvation, would that not indicate they are no longer hardened?

At the end of you post you are still misidentifying Israel, and calling for the nation as whole to turn around. Nope, there is no such promise from God.

Nobody is saying that their unbelief was the result of their hardening. That is incorrect. It was because they rejected Jesus Christ, that they were hardened. Though, of course we can't know who, at the individual level, were actually hardened or not. But this we know, that individual Jews who accept Jesus Christ, were not among the hardened.

You said "At the end of you post you are still misidentifying Israel, and calling for the nation as whole to turn around."

I am not calling for the nation as a whole to turn around. But this I believe, that when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and the blindness and hardening ends,  people will see multitudes of them turn to faith in Christ.

This is the promise concerning this:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.
 
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 05:53:19 by Michael2012 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:01:02 »
You did not address the problem at all. Here is my question: When does the Deliverer's work of turning ungodliness away from Jacob and taking away their sins begin? How does He do it, and when does He do it?

Inasmuch as this takes place is after the hardening of Israel is over, then how you answer will tell us when you believe the hardening of Israel is over and done with.

When does the Deliverer's work of turning ungodliness away from Jacob and taking away their sins begin? How does He do it, and when does He do it?

It will happen when Jesus Christ, the Messiah, will come, at His Second Coming.

And you didn't even see a problem with what you just said?

You are saying that Jesus' work of turning ungodliness from Jacob, and for that matter, from anybody, and taking away their sins, did not begin with His death, burial, and resurrection?

Also, you are saying that at His return, the second coming, He is going to do the work of taking away sins? That is not what scripture says:

Hebrews 9:27-28.
And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

Jesus' first incarnation was for the purpose of being offered to bear the sins of many - it is from this point onward that He is taking care of the sin problem for any and all who believe. However, He shall appear a second time, apart from sin - in other words, not to take care of anybody's sin problem, but rather to gather together unto the final realization of salvation all those who have been waiting for Him.

In other words, His second coming is not to bring to anybody the removal of sins. That all is being done prior to His coming.

Quote
Well, of course Israel hardened itself. I will address that in my next post. If the hardening of Israel results in their unbelief, then if we have Israelites who formerly did not believe start turning to Christ for salvation, would that not indicate they are no longer hardened?

At the end of you post you are still misidentifying Israel, and calling for the nation as whole to turn around. Nope, there is no such promise from God.

Nobody is saying that their unbelief was the result of their hardening. That is incorrect. It was because they rejected Jesus Christ, that they were hardened. Though, of course we can't know who, at the individual level, were actually hardened or not. But this we know, that individual Jews who accept Jesus Christ, were not among the hardened.

I agree with this.

Quote
You said "At the end of you post you are still misidentifying Israel, and calling for the nation as whole to turn around."

I am not calling for the nation as a whole to turn around. But this I believe, that when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and the blindness and hardening ends,  people will see multitudes of them turn to faith in Christ.

This is the promise concerning this:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.

Do you even read your own posts? I quoted you as saying the following:

So while it can be said that the purpose of bringing salvation to the Gentiles had, at the time in Acts 13 had been accomplished, the other purpose of bringing the Israelites to jealousy unto their salvation apparently had not yet taken place. For until to this day even, Israel, taken as a whole, continue in the rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah...

God said this situation of Israel will come to an end. Paul says concerning this "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". Paul said, "in this way all Israel will be saved". "All Israel" means Israel as a whole, in contrast to the relatively small believing remnant of Jews. The context makes this clear.

It reads to me like you are calling for a wholesale turning of Israel, more than just the remnant, unto the Messiah.

So, yes, you are calling for the nation as a whole to turn around. ::sarcasm::

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 07:01:02 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 13:46:23 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 04:51:23
When does the Deliverer's work of turning ungodliness away from Jacob and taking away their sins begin? How does He do it, and when does He do it?

It will happen when Jesus Christ, the Messiah, will come, at His Second Coming.
And you didn't even see a problem with what you just said?

You are saying that Jesus' work of turning ungodliness from Jacob, and for that matter, from anybody, and taking away their sins, did not begin with His death, burial, and resurrection?

No problem at all. But apparently you do.

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

It is clear. It says "from Jacob", and not from anybody. You don't get to read into the passage, what you believe, saying "and for that matter, from anybody".

Also, you are saying that at His return, the second coming, He is going to do the work of taking away sins? That is not what scripture says:

Hebrews 9:27-28.
And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

Jesus' first incarnation was for the purpose of being offered to bear the sins of many - it is from this point onward that He is taking care of the sin problem for any and all who believe. However, He shall appear a second time, apart from sin - in other words, not to take care of anybody's sin problem, but rather to gather together unto the final realization of salvation all those who have been waiting for Him.

In other words, His second coming is not to bring to anybody the removal of sins. That all is being done prior to His coming.

You don't seem to see what this scriptures says:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

This is about Israel, the descendants of Jacob, not the church.

Quote
Quote
Nobody is saying that their unbelief was the result of their hardening. That is incorrect. It was because they rejected Jesus Christ, that they were hardened. Though, of course we can't know who, at the individual level, were actually hardened or not. But this we know, that individual Jews who accept Jesus Christ, were not among the hardened.
I agree with this.

Quote
Quote
You said "At the end of you post you are still misidentifying Israel, and calling for the nation as whole to turn around."

I am not calling for the nation as a whole to turn around. But this I believe, that when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and the blindness and hardening ends,  people will see multitudes of them turn to faith in Christ.

This is the promise concerning this:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Do you even read your own posts? I quoted you as saying the following:
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 04:51:23
So while it can be said that the purpose of bringing salvation to the Gentiles had, at the time in Acts 13 had been accomplished, the other purpose of bringing the Israelites to jealousy unto their salvation apparently had not yet taken place. For until to this day even, Israel, taken as a whole, continue in the rejection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah...

God said this situation of Israel will come to an end. Paul says concerning this "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". Paul said, "in this way all Israel will be saved". "All Israel" means Israel as a whole, in contrast to the relatively small believing remnant of Jews. The context makes this clear.

It reads to me like you are calling for a wholesale turning of Israel, more than just the remnant, unto the Messiah.

So, yes, you are calling for the nation as a whole to turn around. ::sarcasm::

It may seem to you, but I'm not. My post which you quoted, isn't a call for such. Rather, it is to point out what "all Israel" means.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 13:49:13 by Michael2012 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 14:07:54 »
And you didn't even see a problem with what you just said?

You are saying that Jesus' work of turning ungodliness from Jacob, and for that matter, from anybody, and taking away their sins, did not begin with His death, burial, and resurrection?

No problem at all. But apparently you do.

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

It is clear. It says "from Jacob", and not from anybody. You don't get to read into the passage, what you believe, saying "and for that matter, from anybody".

You don't seem to see what this scriptures says:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

This is about Israel, the descendants of Jacob, not the church.
I agree with this.
Do you even read your own posts? I quoted you as saying the following:
It reads to me like you are calling for a wholesale turning of Israel, more than just the remnant, unto the Messiah.

So, yes, you are calling for the nation as a whole to turn around. ::sarcasm::


It may seem to you, but I'm not. My post which you quoted, isn't a call for such. Rather, it is to point out what "all Israel" means.

In other words, you have no real response. ::whistle::

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #11 on: Sat Jul 13, 2019 - 23:18:39 »
In other words, you have no real response. ::whistle::

In other words, you have no real response there. ::whistle::

Offline soterion

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Re: Romans 9-11
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 08:47:45 »
Michael,

You have the distinct inability or unwillingness to read a person's response and to actually address the point(s) being made by that other person.

Your last response to me, Reply #9, was a complete dodge of every pertinent point made to you.