It reads in Matt 3:15 that jOHN THE BAPTIZED , Baptized Jesus .
In Acts 2:38 it says to Israel , Repent and let each of you be BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will the GIFT of the Holy Spirit .
#1 Why did Jesus sunmit to water baptism .
#2 What SINS did Jesus commit ?
#3 And verse 15 says , suffer it so to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS , what does that mean ??
What say you ??
dan p
.
John the baptizer's mission had a special purpose.
● Mal 4:5-6 . . See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of The Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.
John wasn't the actual Elijah in person, but he was close enough.
● Matt 11:14 . . And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Now according to Luke 2:51, Jesus was a good son; so he didn't need correction in that area. His reason for submitting to John's baptism was different. He submitted to John's services simply because, at that particular time in Israel's history, it was the right thing to do.
● Matt 21:25 . . John's baptism-- where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?
Well from Heaven of course, and I'm pretty sure that's at least one of the reasons why Jesus got in on it.
● Matt 3:13-15 . .Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. John tried to prevent him, saying: I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me? Jesus said to him in reply: Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.
_
First we know from John 1:31 , And I knew him not , but that He should be made MANIFEST to Israel , therefore am I come BAPTIZING with WATER ,
Baptism was never given to GENTILES , unless you have a verse that I missed ?
In Ex 19:6 God says to Israel , And ye shall be kings and priests and a holy nation .
These are the words which thou shall SPEAK unto the children of Israel , not to Gentiles .
Then in Rev 1:6 John writes , And hath made us kings and priests unto God .
In Eze 36:25 Christ will SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER upon you and ye shall be clean from all your FILTHINESS and from your idols , will I cleanse you .
This is why WATER BAPTISM was only given to Israel , PERIOD .
This WATER BAPTISM is also written in Mark 16:15--and the 144,000 will be preaching , and He that believeth and is BAPRIZED SHALL be Saved ,
Ans signs , cast out DEVILS , speak in New Tongues , take up SERPENTS , and drink any DEADLY thing , heal the soick , and who was MARK speaking to , Israel .
dan p
: dan p Fri Mar 24, 2023 - 14:29:13
First we know from John 1:31 , And I knew him not , but that He should be made MANIFEST to Israel , therefore am I come BAPTIZING with WATER ,
Baptism was never given to GENTILES , unless you have a verse that I missed ?
In Ex 19:6 God says to Israel , And ye shall be kings and priests and a holy nation .
These are the words which thou shall SPEAK unto the children of Israel , not to Gentiles .
Then in Rev 1:6 John writes , And hath made us kings and priests unto God .
In Eze 36:25 Christ will SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER upon you and ye shall be clean from all your FILTHINESS and from your idols , will I cleanse you .
This is why WATER BAPTISM was only given to Israel , PERIOD .
This WATER BAPTISM is also written in Mark 16:15--and the 144,000 will be preaching , and He that believeth and is BAPRIZED SHALL be Saved ,
Ans signs , cast out DEVILS , speak in New Tongues , take up SERPENTS , and drink any DEADLY thing , heal the soick , and who was MARK speaking to , Israel .
dan p
Dan,
In the first place you say Baptism was never given to GENTILES , unless you have a verse that I missed ?
YES I DO... TOWARD THE END OF THIS. ::tippinghat::
You also said " This is why WATER BAPTISM was only given to Israel , PERIOD ."
WRONG
I will remind you that Jesus was not here for the GENTILES at first.
While the early Christians saw their mission as global in scope, during his earthly ministry, Jesus explicitly declared his mission to be focused only on Israel (Matt 15:24).
Jesus claimed that his mission was only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24), a statement made upon His initial refusal of a Gentile woman who asked for healing for her daughter.
So much so that we can see this in the disciples' avoidance of Gentile towns in favor of "the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 10:5-6, 23).
It has been suggested that he chose twelve disciples to correspond...most likely... to the twelve tribes of Israel
As to salvation... the order of salvation... as demonstrated in Matthew 10-12, is first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles.
Baptism was important as we know about John the Baptist and how it was a command for the Jews... pre-Jesus' arrival that day of the Holy Spirit descending on Him.... as well as after.
Now as to the Gentiles that heard and believed... THEM TOO as you shall see.
Acts 10... starting at verse 34. NASB The Gentiles get the good news and instructions...
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
"I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)—
37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Good post Rella
Acts 2:38 was not for Gentiles.
Rella is right, gospel did not reach gentiles until Cornelius.
Dan P contends the gentiles got a separate and different gospel. i don't think so. There is only one gospel.
Ephesians 4:5-6
King James Version
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
One gospel but it was first for the Jews in Acts 2, then to Samaritans in Acts 8, then to Gentiles in Acts 10,11.
Acts is descriptive, not prescriptive.
That is why I think the Acts 2:38 prooftext is dumb.
Obviously, the rest of scripture in Acts shows baptism associated with conversion, so Dan is full of it.
I don't think the gentiles being next in any way took away from the prescriptive nature of Acts 2:38. Both instances involve baptism in Christ's name. Cornelius speaking in tongues was for a very apecific purpose just like the disciples at Pentecost. It didn't override the prescription in Acts 2 and establish a separate pradigm for gentiles at all.
The book of Acts is descriptive. It is not prescriptive at all. That only works with CENI, which is a terrible way to read scripture
Hiw does Acts 10 work except by CENI? It also works for Acts 2. Nothing at all werong with interpreting , commands, examples or necessary inference. No interpretation method avoids those. They may well call them something else.
All of Acts works without CENI. It is a descriptive book that describes what happened in the early church.
Without Ceni, the explanation by example of baptism in Christ Name at the end of Acts 10, being in water, we would still be trying to figure it out. Some STILL refuse to see it like Dan P. They leap past it and assume Cornelius resets the Gentile paradigm for salvation without water.
I was trying to think of an example of a necessary inference and I think this one is valid. Since the New Testament teaches that valid baptism requires both belief and repentance (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38). Since babies cannot believe, nor do they need to repent (because they have no sin), then it follows necessarily and reasonably that infants are not candidates for baptism in Christ's name.
As to what Jesus meant in Mathew 3:15, i believe this was equivalent to saying, "Yes, I know I have no sins to be repented of and that I might claim an exemption from this duty proclaimed by the authority ofGod and binding upon all men; but, since this is God's ordinance, I wish to honor it anyway by obeying the commandment now."
Both are good points Jaime
: Jaime Sat Mar 25, 2023 - 19:38:40
Without Ceni, the explanation by example of baptism in Christ Name at the end of Acts 10, being in water, we would still be trying to figure it out. Some STILL refuse to see it like Dan P. They leap past it and assume Cornelius resets the Gentile paradigm for salvation without water.
Naw. You just need to read Ephesians 4. No excuse to misread scripture with CENI. The stated purpose of Acts is descriptive.
I think there is plenty in the Bible open to an interpretation such as CENI as in the example of infant baptism. Some of the New Testament especially are cut and dried and no necessary inference needed. What does Acts DESCRIBE for infant baptism?
Back to the opening question of why Jesus was watered baptized He answered it for you
Matthew 3:15
But Jesus, answering, said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
This was equivalent to saying, "Yes, I know I have no sins to be repented of and that I might claim an exemption from this duty proclaimed by the authority of God and binding upon all men; but, since this is God's ordinance, I wish to honor it anyway and am delighted to do so by obeying the commandment now."
Now what do you think he meant by his answer?
: Rella Sat Mar 25, 2023 - 08:50:01
Dan,
In the first place you say Baptism was never given to GENTILES , unless you have a verse that I missed ?
That seems backwards.
Baptism is for adoption. Who needs adoption? The ones who are already children, or the ones who aren't?
Jarrod
I always looked at baptism as the marriage ceremony.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Mar 30, 2023 - 15:54:20
That seems backwards.
Baptism is for adoption. Who needs adoption? The ones who are already children, or the ones who aren't?
Jarrod
His point was he did not know it was specified for Gentiles in the NT so I gave him that info ::tippinghat::
For one you did not explain why Jesus had to be water baptized ?
Then you believe what Acts 10:45 that upon the GENTILES the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT had been poured out .
So did these Gentiles BECOME part of Israel ?
Or do those GENTILES be PLACED into the BODY OF CHRIST ?
ESPECIAILLY , because the BODY OF CHRIST was NOT YET KNOWN ?
I say that thoses in Acts 10:45 are a part of Israel as they were COMMANDED to be WATER BAPTIZED in verse 48 .
Paul does not command any one saved GRACE to be WATER BAPTIZED , like Eph 2:5 and 8 and Rom 10:9-10 .
dan p
: dan p Thu May 18, 2023 - 14:16:06
For one you did not explain why Jesus had to be water baptized ?
Then you believe what Acts 10:45 that upon the GENTILES the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT had been poured out .
So did these Gentiles BECOME part of Israel ?
Or do those GENTILES be PLACED into the BODY OF CHRIST ?
ESPECIAILLY , because the BODY OF CHRIST was NOT YET KNOWN ?
I say that thoses in Acts 10:45 are a part of Israel as they were COMMANDED to be WATER BAPTIZED in verse 48 .
Paul does not command any one saved GRACE to be WATER BAPTIZED , like Eph 2:5 and 8 and Rom 10:9-10 .
dan p
Dan,
Gentiles were grafted in.
Romans 11:17
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root
of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
25-32 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[e] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
As to the water baptism of Jesus... How about so the Holy Spirit could descend on Him?
Else how could He command people to be believe and be baptised if He was not baptised Himself?
Dan, why would you say that Baptism in Christ's name is NOT about being saved by grace? Since God does the saving in baptism in Christ's name, the ensuing salvation is the result of soley by God's grace through faith in Christ. We certainly do NOT save ourselves, wet OR dry. Any salvation is by God and his grace to offer that free gift that we can not merit of earn.
And in Eph 4:5 it reads , ONE LORD , ONE FAITH and ONE BAPTISM .
So check ONE BAPTISM and it really reads ONE BAPTISMA , and NOT one Baptizo .
So what does ONE BAPTISMA then mean ?
It means ONE BAPTISMA , which then that that ONE BAPTISMA is the HOLY SPIRIT , PERIOD !!
Or explain 1 Cor 10:1 --2 that reads And all were BAPTIZED / BAPTIZO , unto Moses in the CLOUD and in the SEA , so will you explain how that happened and was this BAPTISM , WATER ??
dan p
: Texas Conservative Sat Mar 25, 2023 - 14:58:21Acts 2:38 was not for Gentiles.
Rella is right, gospel did not reach gentiles until Cornelius.
vs. 39 made baptism for gentiles as well.
However, it seems Peter needed a little convincing and the second baptism with the Holy Spirit recorded in the NT convinced him Acts 10:47-48.
: Jaime Thu May 18, 2023 - 22:58:43Dan, why would you say that Baptism in Christ's name is NOT about being saved by grace? Since God does the saving in baptism in Christ's name, the ensuing salvation is the result of soley by God's grace through faith in Christ. We certainly do NOT save ourselves, wet OR dry. Any salvation is by God and his grace to offer that free gift that we can not merit of earn.
Jaime,
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus said you had to be baptised to be saved?
Dont go to Mark 16:16 because the actual ending of Mark was vs 8 and the rest was an addon.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/the-strange-ending-of-the-gospel-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/This original ending of Mark was viewed by later Christians as so deficient that not only was Mark placed second in order in the New Testament, but various endings were added by editors and copyists in some manuscripts to try to remedy things. The longest concocted ending, which became Mark 16:9-19, became so treasured that it was included in the King James Version of the Bible, favored for the past 500 years by Protestants, as well as translations of the Latin Vulgate, used by Catholics. This meant that for countless millions of Christians it became sacred scripture–but it is patently bogus.
But that is beside the point.
We know Jesus, Himself, was baptised. We were never told why.
Surly you cannot believe Jesus needed saved Himself?
But what you patently are ignoring is that it is the spirit that gets regenerated. Spiritual regeneration
The un-regenerate are spiritually dead and live in spiritual darkness.
All humans are born spiritually dead due to the original sin of Adam. The regenerate are made alive spiritually; they live in spiritual light.
Only people who are spiritually alive can truly understand God's Word in its truth and richness. For the unregenerate, this is impossible.
Because when God saves a person, He renews their minds, hearts, and souls. The body... NO. That is why you will get a new glorified body because
This cover we have will rot in the ground ( or wherever) It cannot go where the soul and spirit does.
Jesus told Nicodemus
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
A spiritual regeneration.
OK... I have rambled on enough because there is one area that no one ever talks about
FROM Jesus Himself... John 6
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
Now I know people who never give thought to Holy Communion.And this seems as equally important as anything.
It is one reason why my church makes the first Holy Communion so important and also the Roman Catholic church, which is quite
important to themc [/size]
Rella, other than all the examples we have of people being baptized in the New Testament in instances of salvation, the following passages seems to be the most definitive to me:
1Peter 3:21
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this (Noah and his family being saved through the water), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Plus Paul had to have his sins washed away in baptism in the Acts 22 account. Why did his sins need to be washed away, after his face to face with the risen Christ? Would that reason have anything to do with salvation?
: Rella Wed Jul 10, 2024 - 13:40:01We know Jesus, Himself, was baptised. We were never told why.
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented. So we are told why, but even so I am not sure that I fully understand it.
: Rella Wed Jul 10, 2024 - 13:40:01Surly you cannot believe Jesus needed saved Himself?
But what you patently are ignoring is that it is the spirit that gets regenerated. Spiritual regeneration
The un-regenerate are spiritually dead and live in spiritual darkness.
All humans are born spiritually dead due to the original sin of Adam. The regenerate are made alive spiritually; they live in spiritual light.
No, we are not born spiritually dead. That is a heresy postulated by the RCC, picked up by Augustine and then by Calvin.
We are spiritually alive when we are born. We become spiritually dead when we sin. Once spiritually alive, then spiritually dead. And that is the reason why we need to be REborn, REgenerated. We need to be REturned to the position of being spiritually alive.
Our spirits come from God. He doesn't give us dead spirits; He gives us spirits alive and well. WE screw things up when we sin. That is when we become dead in trespasses and sins and need to be REborn.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:
Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
: Rella Wed Jul 10, 2024 - 13:40:01
Jaime,
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus said you had to be baptised to be saved?
Dont go to Mark 16:16 because the actual ending of Mark was vs 8 and the rest was an addon.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/the-strange-ending-of-the-gospel-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/But that is beside the point.
We know Jesus, Himself, was baptised. We were never told why.
Surly you cannot believe Jesus needed saved Himself?
But what you patently are ignoring is that it is the spirit that gets regenerated. Spiritual regeneration
The un-regenerate are spiritually dead and live in spiritual darkness.
All humans are born spiritually dead due to the original sin of Adam. The regenerate are made alive spiritually; they live in spiritual light.
Only people who are spiritually alive can truly understand God's Word in its truth and richness. For the unregenerate, this is impossible.
Because when God saves a person, He renews their minds, hearts, and souls. The body... NO. That is why you will get a new glorified body because
This cover we have will rot in the ground ( or wherever) It cannot go where the soul and spirit does.
Jesus told Nicodemus
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
A spiritual regeneration.
OK... I have rambled on enough because there is one area that no one ever talks about
FROM Jesus Himself... John 6
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
Now I know people who never give thought to Holy Communion.And this seems as equally important as anything.
It is one reason why my church makes the first Holy Communion so important and also the Roman Catholic church, which is quite
important to themc
All humans are born spiritually dead due to the original sin of Adam.Original sin is an extra-Biblical teaching, and has no place in Biblical discussion.
Only people who are spiritually alive can truly understand God's Word in its truth and richness. For the unregenerate, this is impossible.This is also wrong
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Hearing the word of God comes first then faith. Faith comes before being saved John 3:16, therefore hearing the word of God comes before being saved.
Example:
Mark 12:32-34 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: [33] And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. [34] And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Jesus acknowledged this man's understanding of scripture, even though he was only "not far" from the kingdom of God.
: Rella Wed Jul 10, 2024 - 13:40:01
Jaime,
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus said you had to be baptised to be saved?
Dont go to Mark 16:16 because the actual ending of Mark was vs 8 and the rest was an addon.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/the-strange-ending-of-the-gospel-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/But that is beside the point.
We know Jesus, Himself, was baptised. We were never told why.
Surly you cannot believe Jesus needed saved Himself?
But what you patently are ignoring is that it is the spirit that gets regenerated. Spiritual regeneration
The un-regenerate are spiritually dead and live in spiritual darkness.
All humans are born spiritually dead due to the original sin of Adam. The regenerate are made alive spiritually; they live in spiritual light.
Only people who are spiritually alive can truly understand God's Word in its truth and richness. For the unregenerate, this is impossible.
Because when God saves a person, He renews their minds, hearts, and souls. The body... NO. That is why you will get a new glorified body because
This cover we have will rot in the ground ( or wherever) It cannot go where the soul and spirit does.
Jesus told Nicodemus
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
A spiritual regeneration.
OK... I have rambled on enough because there is one area that no one ever talks about
FROM Jesus Himself... John 6
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
Now I know people who never give thought to Holy Communion.And this seems as equally important as anything.
It is one reason why my church makes the first Holy Communion so important and also the Roman Catholic church, which is quite
important to themc
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus said you had to be baptised to be saved?It doesn't say that Jesus said you had to be baptised to be saved. It says that's what baptism in Jesus's name is for, the purpose, the reason for getting baptized.
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.'etc.
John's baptism was for repentance and forgiveness of sin. Salvation wasn't the intent at that point.
It always seemed to me that Jesus volunteered for the baptism to set an example for his own ministry, he was sinless but not above sinners, and to fulfill God's plan of revealing to John the new messiah.
: Alan Wed Jul 10, 2024 - 20:58:36It always seemed to me that Jesus volunteered for the baptism to set an example for his own ministry, he was sinless but not above sinners, and to fulfill God's plan of revealing to John the new messiah.
Textual critics think that the church altered this chapter of Luke at a later date.
It is believed that the quote 'This is my beloved Son, hear Him' was substituted in place of a quotation of Psalm 2:7, which says, 'Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.'
This is based on Acts 13:33, which quotes the Psalm in a similar manner and is also written by Luke.
However, the language 'To Day I have begotten Thee' conflicts with the doctrine of immaculate conception, and so there was a change... supposedly.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Jul 11, 2024 - 00:08:16Textual critics think that the church altered this chapter of Luke at a later date.
It is believed that the quote 'This is my beloved Son, hear Him' was substituted in place of a quotation of Psalm 2:7, which says, 'Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.'
This is based on Acts 13:33, which quotes the Psalm in a similar manner and is also written by Luke.
However, the language 'To Day I have begotten Thee' conflicts with the doctrine of immaculate conception, and so there was a change... supposedly.
Hi Jarrod,
Thanks for the thoughts but begs does it really conflict?
We know that Mary was a virgin when she became pregnant with Jesus.
We also have been told that the Holy Spirit (I believe God the Holy Spirit) came upon Mary and got her in the family way.
Matt
1:18 she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
1:20 the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
Luke
1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
1: 34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
1;35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
How the Holy Spirit managed it is beyond your and my pay grade.
We just know, or should know it happened.
I have never read anywhere that the word begotten means body parts had to connect... especially when the Holy Spirit had no body parts
that we know of.
https://www.bibleversestudy.com/acts/acts13-begotten-meaning.htm
What is the meaning of "have begotten" (Acts 13:33)?
γεγεννηκα (gegenneka), the original Greek word translated "have begotten," is typically understood to mean "having fathered" or "having brought forth from the womb," but it literally means just "having brought forth" or "having caused to arise," and is being used in this literal sense in this passage (see below). It should be noted that γεγεννηκα (gegenneka) is different from μονογενης (monogenes), which means "only" or "unique" but mistranslated as "only begotten" in some English translations (see monogenes).
Human inability to comprehend a meaning so some caused "wiser" men or group changes to things for "clarity" and just muddies up the waters.IMO (At least this cannot be blamed on women.)
"'To Day I have begotten Thee' conflicts with the doctrine of immaculate conception" ::frown::
Nothing... repeat NOTHING... could be more immaculate then a
spirit, as in Holy merging... however it happened, with a flesh and blood mortal....
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: Alan Wed Jul 10, 2024 - 20:58:36John's baptism was for repentance and forgiveness of sin. Salvation wasn't the intent at that point.
It always seemed to me that Jesus volunteered for the baptism to set an example for his own ministry, he was sinless but not above sinners, and to fulfill God's plan of revealing to John the new messiah.
Thanks Alan,
I agree... plus the Holy Spirit descended upon Him that day so no better way to kick off His ministry then by example.
: Rella Thu Jul 11, 2024 - 06:54:36Thanks for the thoughts but begs does it really conflict?
Yes, the timing of "to day" creates a conflict.
If Jesus was begotten at His baptism, then what are we to make of His physical birth?
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Jul 11, 2024 - 12:11:06Yes, the timing of "to day" creates a conflict.
If Jesus was begotten at His baptism, then what are we to make of His physical birth?
Not so fast.
If the definition I posted is even within the realm of reason it says
https://www.bibleversestudy.com/acts/acts13-begotten-meaning.htm
Quote
What is the meaning of "have begotten" (Acts 13:33)?
γεγεννηκα (gegenneka), the original Greek word translated "have begotten," is typically understood to mean "having fathered" or "having brought forth from the womb," but it literally means just "having brought forth" or "having caused to arise,"
Heb 5:5
KJV
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
NASB95
So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";
Interlinear says
! today have begotten You
Peshitta
So neither did The Messiah glorify his soul to be High Priest, but he who said to him, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you",
4 widely separated translation saying the same basic thing.
I see no problem if you read this as if God the Father was saying
You are my son, today I have "having brought forth" or "having caused to arise, IOW today I have brought (You) forth OR today I have caused (You) to arise.
: Rella Thu Jul 11, 2024 - 13:40:17I see no problem if you read this as if God the Father was saying
You are my son, today I have "having brought forth" or "having caused to arise, IOW today I have brought (You) forth OR today I have caused (You) to arise.
Whoever edited Luke thought it was a problem. I guess they didn't read it the way you do.
: NyawehNyoh Fri Mar 24, 2023 - 13:53:01.
John the baptizer's mission had a special purpose.
● Mal 4:5-6 . . See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of The Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.
John wasn't the actual Elijah in person, but he was close enough.
● Matt 11:14 . . And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Now according to Luke 2:51, Jesus was a good son; so he didn't need correction in that area. His reason for submitting to John's baptism was different. He submitted to John's services simply because, at that particular time in Israel's history, it was the right thing to do.
● Matt 21:25 . . John's baptism-- where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?
Well from Heaven of course, and I'm pretty sure that's at least one of the reasons why Jesus got in on it.
● Matt 3:13-15 . .Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him (https://christianpure.com/learn/jesus-baptism-time-date/). John tried to prevent him, saying: I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me? Jesus said to him in reply: Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.
_
Jesus himself was sinless and did not need baptism for forgiveness, but his baptism served several important purposes:
1. To fulfill righteousness and identify with humanity: By submitting to baptism, Jesus aligned himself with sinful humanity and "fulfilled all righteousness" as he stated to John (Matthew 3:15). (Waheeb, 2019)
2. As a symbolic anointing and commissioning: The baptism, accompanied by the descent of the Holy Spirit and the Father's voice from heaven, served as a public anointing of Jesus for his messianic mission. (Waheeb, 2019)
3. To set an example for his followers: Jesus' baptism established a model for Christian baptism as an initiation into the faith community. (Baumgarten, 2014)
4. To prefigure his death and resurrection: Some early Christian thinkers saw Jesus' descent into the waters as foreshadowing his death, and his rising from the water as anticipating his resurrection. (Richer, 2000)
5. To sanctify the waters: In some theological traditions, Jesus' baptism is seen as blessing and sanctifying the waters themselves for use in Christian baptism. (Ferguson, 2012)
Question on the subject.
If Jesus was the son of man AND the Son of God could he have been begotten of each at different times? One at his "natural"birth and one at his "spiritual" birth?
: Jaime Fri Jul 12, 2024 - 11:13:58Question on the subject.
If Jesus was the son of man AND the Son of God could he have been begotten of each at different times? One at his "natural"birth and one at his "spiritual" birth?
That's a great question. I don't have an answer that I can assert with confidence.
I would lean towards yes. In the original Psalm that contains the quote (Psalm 2), it is applied to David. If David can be "begotten" at the time he took the throne, then it stands to reason the same might apply to Jesus.
: Jaime Fri Jul 12, 2024 - 11:13:58Question on the subject.
If Jesus was the son of man AND the Son of God could he have been begotten of each at different times? One at his "natural"birth and one at his "spiritual" birth?
The giving of the empowering Holy Spirit as happened with Jesus at his baptism is not a "spiritual" birth. We are never told that Jesus was ever given the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
I personally believe that Jesus' own spirit that that He had as a man is one and the same Spirit that was His pre-incarnate being. That is why in Hebrews 2 we read,
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same,.....The "He Himself" that took on the flesh and blood of the human being was the pre-incarnate Spirit who became a human being through the physical birth to Mary.
At least that is a part of my explanation of just how it was that Jesus was fully human and fully God.
I believe he was a perfectly empowered Holy Spirit filled man, that did miracles by the power of that Holy Spirit since he chastised the pharisees not to commit the unpardonanle sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit when they accused him of doing his miracles by the power of Beelzebub. I believe be left his God-ness when he left heaven and came to earth. OR somehow switched off his God-ness to fully live AND die as a man so he could be our perfect advocate and high priest in his eternal position in beaven. He demonstrated the Holy Spirit potential TO us as a human who fully appropriated the Holy Spirit in his humanity.
: Jaime Sat Jul 13, 2024 - 06:52:10I believe he was a perfectly empowered Holy Spirit filled man, that did miracles by the power of that Holy Spirit since he chastised the pharisees not to commit the unpardonanle sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit when they accused him of doing his miracles by the power of Beelzebub. I believe be left his God-ness when he left heaven and came to earth. OR somehow switched off his God-ness to fully live AND die as a man so he could be our perfect advocate and high priest in his eternal position in beaven. He demonstrated the Holy Spirit potential TO us as a human who fully appropriated the Holy Spirit in his humanity.
So you don't believe He was fully God when he lived here as a human being? Interesting.
What did He mean then when He said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30)?
I'm not sure what I believe. Which is why I put the caveat of him having a way to switch off his God-ness. Example, it wouldn't be remotely incredible for God to endure the pain of the cross, BUT As a holy spirit empowered human, yes, It would be incredinly surprising. One that took off his God "suit" and left it in heaven willingly and lived sinless as a human, admittedly I don't understand it. As a super human with God abilities, how was he tempted or tested as we are without a toggle somehow on his God powers? I am sure my deficit in understanding is MY issue not Jesus'. I fully accept Jesus as the third person in the eternal Trinity aside from his stint as a human. In that sense He and the Father ARE one, without doubt. Yet I still don't understand it. Did the Bible intend to communicate that he was a superhuman, i don't believe so, but since I lack understanding of this, I am certainly open to being wrong. In being wrong, I would still be deficient in understanding this.
: dan p Thu Mar 23, 2023 - 19:05:34It reads in Matt 3:15 that jOHN THE BAPTIZED , Baptized Jesus .
In Acts 2:38 it says to Israel , Repent and let each of you be BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will the GIFT of the Holy Spirit .
#1 Why did Jesus sunmit to water baptism .
#2 What SINS did Jesus commit ?
#3 And verse 15 says , suffer it so to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS , what does that mean ??
What say you ??
dan p
To fulfill all and set an example for us, which He did. Its that simple...
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: armchairscholar Fri Jul 12, 2024 - 07:36:28Waheeb, Baumgarten, Richer, & Ferguson
On June 28, 2024, The US Supreme Court overturned a long held opinion so-called the Chevron Deference Doctrine, which was basically an argument from authority, i.e. a logical fallacy which supposes that someone's position, or their credential, makes their views more important and/or more likely to be correct than the views of lesser folks.
In a nutshell; just because someone is high up on the "expert" totem pole does not eo ipso make them right. Caveat Lector.
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: Jaime Sat Mar 25, 2023 - 15:17:46Dan P contends the gentiles got a separate and different gospel. i don't think so. There is only one gospel.
Eph 4:5 says ONE // HEIS , means One , One Faith ,
ONE // HEIS , BAPTISMA !!
So what does BAPTISMA then means ??
The Greek word BAPTISMA is used 22 times fro Matt 3:7 through
1 Peter 3: 21 !!
Check the Greek text and SEE !!
dan p
: dan p Tue Feb 04, 2025 - 13:17:23Eph 4:5 says ONE // HEIS , means One , One Faith ,
ONE // HEIS , BAPTISMA !!
So what does BAPTISMA then means ??
There ya go... you found a verse that directly contradicts your "two gospels" idea.
If you were to expand on the context (instead of dissecting the verse one word at a time), I think you'll find that the larger context of the chapter and book ALSO directly contradicts the "two gospels" nonsense.
1 Corinthians 1:11-13 KJV 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
If you find that you are a Paulian rather than a Christian, then it may be time to repent.