or any place really, do we have a understanding laid out on this in scripture, lets look at some verses...
Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.
2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.
Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:)
Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
So can someone explain to me how the Catholic Church can rationalize it or justify bringing idols into churches before its people, how can they claim to follow God and His Word when they worship idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk, how can they allow idols made by man to be put up in their places of worship when the Bible is so clear on this........ am I missing something?
I am not Catholic. However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols. A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons. It can be something as simple as a burning candle. These are used to focus prayer and worship. They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics. They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus.
When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ. We are not worshipping the bread and wine. Catholics use icons in a similar way.
Yes, He does mind.
Jesus said, regarding the Lord's supper, THIS DO in rememberance of me. So it's not really just actions to help us focus, it's obeying His command.
Just because something has been done for centuries, doesn't mean we are authorized to do so. Col 3:17 - Do everything in the name of the Lord (which mean by His authority)
We are not authorized to use diet coke instead of wine in the Lord's supper, or to use a sausage instead of bread.
Likewise we are not authorized to pray/worship using icons. I don't ever remember Jesus or any apostles using candles or anything else when they were praying etc.
Yes He minds. I won't even keep a 'artist's rendition' of Jesus, or crosses around my house. I don't want any icons of reverence or worship. Now that is a personal decision, and I realize these could be decor items, but I just like to keep it simple and keep them away.
Law taken to the nth degree in the site of man would make a woman or man with tattoos, or body piercing such as earrings abominable. A man with longer hair is a shame, and a women with shorten hair is a tramp. The man must trim his beard just so, and the woman wear no attractive clothing. I reckon you are all just worthless. Some even wear crosses as if that is bearing a cross; think they worship it?
But Romans 5:8 says: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." And there is therefore now no condemnation to those which are in Christ Jesus. Do you realize that there are some that do not eat certain things for the Lord, while there are others that do eat those same things for the Lord, and God says He accepts them both? Are they worshipping the love they're showing the Lord? Has that love turned somehow into idol worship?
Around here many talk of the heart willingness to please God, and well that should be in all our worship, but despising our brethren of another group should not be a part of that. I came out of Catholicism and for some time wondered after reading the Bible why some there still received answer to prayer even as we do outside that system. Who I considered a knowledgeable brother in the Lord told me this: when a Catholic prays to Mary, or a saint, has statues, burns candles and such practices, God is wise enough to know who they are really trying to reach; God does look on the heart and He loves them every bit as much as He does you and I; He died for us all.
Would God have us all to grow in grace and knowledge of Him? Yes, but we are at different stages of growth in our walk with Him as we allow God to work in our lives. We read in Romans 12:2 how that there are three different levels of proving of our transformation from the world, and that is by recognizing "what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." You can judge other Christians in their worship if you want to, but I recommend giving your brethren opportunity to grow in grace.
God bless you all in Jesus' name - larry2
Matt 4:7
Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test'"
Not trying to correct those doing things out of line with scripture is not allowing them to grow in grace. It's putting the Lord your God to the test.
GOOD POST LARRY. LETS JUST ALL WORSHIP GOD IN LOVE.
Stilts - Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test'"
Not trying to correct those doing things out of line with scripture is not allowing them to grow in grace. It's putting the Lord your God to the test.
larry2 - Our not judging others to you is putting God to the test? I read in Ephesians 2:10 that we are all God's workmanship, and according to Philippians 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." God did it for me, and I have no doubt He loves them just as much.
In Jesus' name - larry2
BTW - Thanks Candy ::smile::
I think this is a good question but somewhat off point. Except in the case of the extreme adoration toward Madonna statues and statuettes in some communities, I don't think Catholics as a rule actually worship idols.
For a certainty this form of adoration does exist in South America for instance where people flock from miles around to bow at a statue and offer prayers and sacrifices to it.
The bigger question and a big source of confusion is probably the definition of the term "saint".
A cursory reading of the NT specifically the epistles, make it rather apparent that the meaning and intent of the term as used in the epistles is quite different than the way the Catholic church adopted and uses it.
It seems to me the way the RCC uses the term created spiritual class division where there should be none.
The bible does support sainthood as something designated by men but rather by God by virtue of a person's Salvation and acceptance of Christ.
Quote
Likewise we are not authorized to pray/worship using icons. I don't ever remember Jesus or any apostles using candles or anything else when they were praying etc.
Where is the authority for praying with heads bowed and eye closed instead of "lifting up holy hands", where is the authority for using doctors instead of having the elders pray and annoint you with oil, where is the authority for a church qwning a church building, having a board of directors to meet legal requirements or any of a hundred other things that groups do?????
Larry2
Your stock went up with me about 300%.
larry2 - Our not judging others to you is putting God to the test?
stilts - I should have been more clear.
Hebrews 5:9 says
"And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"
If we see somebody doing something that is out of line with scriptures (i.e. not obeying), whether it be in regards to salvation/worship/daily life, and we know it to be contrary to the Word of Christ, if we do not lovingly and humbly attempt to correct them, we are putting the love and grace of God to the test.
If we are further along in our growth we should help others "grow in grace and knowledge" by showing them where there actions conflict with scripture.
One example of this is in Titus 2: 3-5 where we see how Paul instructs the older women to teach the younger, "so the word of God may not be reviled".
: Johnb Thu May 14, 2009 - 15:02:27
Quote
Likewise we are not authorized to pray/worship using icons. I don't ever remember Jesus or any apostles using candles or anything else when they were praying etc.
Where is the authority for praying with heads bowed and eye closed instead of "lifting up holy hands", where is the authority for using doctors instead of having the elders pray and annoint you with oil, where is the authority for a church qwning a church building, having a board of directors to meet legal requirements or any of a hundred other things that groups do?????
Larry2
Your stock went up with me about 300%.
I'll work on these....
Doctors - Luke 5:31 - Sick people need a physician. (At my congregation, one of our members, with cancer, did ask the elders to annoint him with oil - and the elders did it)
Bowing heads - (I know that this is OT) Exodus 4:31
Church buildings - http://bibleanswer.com/buildngs.htm - this pretty well explains my stance.
Board of directors - church organization is addressed in the NT, it is not a board of directors, but should consist of elders and deacons, each with their associated qualifications.
Quote when a Catholic prays to Mary, or a saint, has statues, burns candles and such practices, God is wise enough to know who they are really trying to reach;
I agree in part but does that excuse those who shepherd them? Does that excuse those who teach them? Are they not practicing a form of paganism? Are they not required to know the Word for themselves?
Or are they Saved by grace, yet short circuited in their understanding of the Word and thereby the fruits of their righteousness having been led by the powers that be into maintaining an allegiance to "erroneous" traditions of men?
Wasn't Martin Luther correct in being appalled at the practice of indulgences?
God knew the heart of the people but did the indulgences help them?
If I believe in the gospel according to the stars and attempt to reach God through the zodiac or through other means than through Jesus...
....am I safe in assuming God hears my prayers just as much as those who pray in the Name of Jesus?
Long story short doesn't John 14:6 basically sum up the how and why for our Faith
or
is grace a catch all cover for everyone no matter what they practice as long as they say they believe?
If thats the case JWs and LDS and even Christian Wiccans can be considered in right standing before God according to your interpretation.
Please explain
: Johnb Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic. However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols. A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons. It can be something as simple as a burning candle. These are used to focus prayer and worship. They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics. They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus.
When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ. We are not worshipping the bread and wine. Catholics use icons in a similar way.
I have seen how people put candles on these statues, they also kiss them and bow down to them. If this is not idol worship then I don't know what idol worship is.
Stilts - It is true that we do not read about churches owning buildings in the NT.
It is equally true that we do not read about churches owning song books or
chairs for its members to sit in while worshipping.
larry2 - I enjoyed Joe Price's answers to you Stilts.
It was common in the early to enter synagogues and talk of God. They had scrolls of the law. They sang, though from memorization or not I know not. Tradition was very common there.
As pertaining to seats, There is Moses' seat mentioned in Matthew 23:2.
Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats:
I do not think a seat is a bad thing, and the older I become, the more attached I seem to be to them.
Revelation 1:11 "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." All these seven churches were the Church, the body of Christ, but don't you think some may have been meeting places such as the synagogues were to the Jews?
Stilts - For instance, we NEVER read of the apostles using a bank account to hold and
distribute the collected money for the work of the local church.
larry2 - They used Judas for that for awhile.
Stilts - We should help others "grow in grace and knowledge" by showing them where there actions conflict with scripture. One example of this is in Titus 2: 3-5 where we see how Paul instructs the older women to teach the younger, "so the word of God may not be reviled".
larry2 - Galatians 6:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." And I do see this also as having opportunity as the Holy Spirit leads us. In earlier years I would attempt to convert others to my thinking on the Bible; it simply does not do anything but harm to them if the Holy Spirit has not yet made the opening.
When they are ready, God will send them to you, and then you can be prepared to as Peter tells us in 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." Many attempt to get the cart before the horse, and it only breeds contempt. We must always do things at the Lord's bidding, and not our own; and then only in love.
In Jesus' name - larry2
Hi.
Okay, so I also don't like to have images of Jesus or the apostles or whatever in my house. It's a personal choice that I made after living the life that I did.
And, after having spent so many years in idolatry, I have a real problem with statues being "given" places of distinction, set up in shrines and being bowed down to. Every time I think of the Catholic church, I remember burning candles - in front of the statues - and burning incense - for the statues - and kneeling down - in front of the statues. And I remember this, from Leviticus 26:1 " 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.
As for wearing a cross... I have worn a cross (not a crucifix) to remind me of the sacrifice that God made and the price that Jesus paid for me. Not every Christian wears one as a "carrying of their cross".
In earlier years I would attempt to convert others to my thinking on the Bible; it simply does not do anything but harm to them if the Holy Spirit has not yet made the opening.
Yet ....right is still right!
And with that I say thank God Martin Luther called it the way he saw it
otherwise we'd all be participating in the practice of indulgences to save our souls and the souls of our loved ones...among other un biblical things people do as a result of wrong teaching, tradition, religion and culture I hope and pray God truly does overlook.
IMHO I think John 14:6 kind of rules out a lot of things we may want to accept as okay
If not we're kinda of giving the green light of 1 size fits all ...so to speak and speaking for God by saying it's okay...when in fact all we have to go on is what He said!
That opens the door for the doctrine of Universal Salvation
: gwen Thu May 14, 2009 - 16:29:10
Hi.
Okay, so I also don't like to have images of Jesus or the apostles or whatever in my house. It's a personal choice that I made after living the life that I did.
And, after having spent so many years in idolatry, I have a real problem with statues being "given" places of distinction, set up in shrines and being bowed down to.
Seems like the right "biblical" choice to me! ::amen!::
Quote
I'll work on these....
Doctors - Luke 5:31 - Sick people need a physician. (At my congregation, one of our members, with cancer, did ask the elders to annoint him with oil - and the elders did it)
Bowing heads - (I know that this is OT) Exodus 4:31
Church buildings - http://bibleanswer.com/buildngs.htm - this pretty well explains my stance.
Board of directors - church organization is addressed in the NT, it is not a board of directors, but should consist of elders and deacons, each with their associated qualifications.
I am making an assumtion here if I am wrong feel free to correct me. My assumtion is that you believe that we are guided by commands, examples etc of the NT for the church,
Luke 5:31 is competely out of context. The only things Christians are told to do when sick is pray and call for the elders.
Yes Exodus is in the OT. The NT said let men every where pray lifting up holy hands..
Although you may not be aware that it exists to meet legal maters a non profit organization must have a board etc. It may be the elders or someone else and it is usualy not broad cast because it is a seperate organization to meet legal requirements.
Speaking of Elders what is the authorized procedure for placing one in an official church office. The only ones I read about in the NT were either chosen by inspired preachers or the Holy Spirit.
See I can be as legalistic as the next guy.
Telling a Catholic that they are worshippng an idol instead of using an icon to focus is like telling someone they were not baptised for the remission of sins. in both cases that is something that only that individual knows.
I am simply telling you what both the Catholic church and Orthodox church teach concerning religious icons.
I have a big problem with praying to Mary or to saints. ISTM that is misplaced worship. However, there is a fine line to draw between feeling inspired or focused by an object and worshiping it.
I have this small print in my home. I love it because when I get too full of myself, it reminds me that I might all well have been the one to drive the nails into his hands. I don't worship it - I just appreciate it for what it is. I don't see it as any different than feeling worshipful because I'm out in the glory of God's creation.
(http://purgatorio1.com/wp-content/pics/forgiven.jpg)
Thanks, Johnb. As an Orthodox Christian, I can affirm that we (and RCC) do not worship icons. (I know that you are not in our church and don't want to imply that you necessary agree --although maybe someday ::smile::)
Another thing to consider is the Seventh Ecumenical Council, which is accepted as true in historical Christianity, specifically dealt with this issue and came out on the side of using icons in worship.
So, if you want to be connected with the historic Christian faith, make room in your heart for using icons or at least appreciate those who do.
Thanks for reading, especially if you disagree.
Johnb - I am making an assumtion here if I am wrong feel free to correct me. My assumtion is that you believe that we are guided by commands, examples etc of the NT for the church,
Stilts - John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" - I love Jesus, therefore, I seek to follow His commands.
trifecta
You are welcome. Akthough I am not and don't think I will ever be a Catholic or Ortodox. I still respect their faith. Actually I have used icons in a small group when we were discussing different methods of prayer and drawing close to God.
Stilts - John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" - I love Jesus, therefore, I seek to follow His commands
How about these commands
Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Let you men pray every where lifting up holy hands,
foot washing
fasting
picking up snakes
drinking poison
just to name a few. The truth is we all pick and choose the commands we obey.
The topic is slightly off track...the original question was: Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshiped in church?
The clear answer is yes. We are not to worship anything other than God. We should probably make another thread entitled "should we have any spiritual images/statues in our lives"
fanuvmxpx
Good point. However, ot seems the OP assumed that if there were images or statues present they must be idols and folks must be worshipping them. Clearly we are not to have idols but many things in life may come closer to being idols than these things in a church. It was clearly a slam on RRC and O churches.
picking up snakes, drinking poison
I don't see those 2 as commands but rather something we will be capable of surviving if we happened to experience
For instance Paul was bitten by snakes in Acts 28:3
I tend to see them as symbolically referring to the authority of the believer in overcoming fear and death ...just a thought
The clear answer is yes. We are not to worship anything other than God. We should probably make another thread entitled "should we have any spiritual images/statues in our lives"
Is anyone here familiar with Santeria?
Millions adhere to it, especially in South America and Cuba
In that practice there is a "veil" relationship between Catholic saints and orisha voodoo gods.
Some participate in the occult aspects of the faith and at the same time consider themselves Catholic
I'm not saying this is Catholicism, just pointing out how it's easy for one thing to turn into something else when you take liberties and move boundaries
I'll let it go at that, it's a little too creepy
gospel
it is strange how you picked out the one commandment and did not touch the others but tried to explain this one away. In Mark 16 it does not say if or they could or you might but they SHALL pick up ..... That is why there are some groups that pratice this. Which proves my point that we all see "commands" differently and pick and choose.
If you want to be to be technical, aren't pictures of our loved ones images?
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
In Jesus' name - larry2
: Johnb Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic. However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols. A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons. It can be something as simple as a burning candle. These are used to focus prayer and worship. They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics. They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus.
When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ. We are not worshipping the bread and wine. Catholics use icons in a similar way.
Yup.
Roman Catholics normally use statues. Eastern Orthodox
love icons. The Episcopal Church down by the river prefers icons as well.
I have a statue of St. Francis in the backyard, under an arbor so there are birds around.
I have a little pewter monk, and a little wooden one on my bookcase.
I have an icon of St. Nicholas (the Saint of Bari, IT) on the bookcase as well.
I don't worship any of them.
The 2nd Commandment of God is about Idolatry. God hates when we give the glory due him to created things. Idolatry, which perhaps is the core sin that leads to all sins, occur when we worship anything other than God. People worship things like money, sex, fame, children, spouse, statues, self, etc., etc. God is a jealous God, and he will not have us to worship something that is infintely beneath him, when we were created to behold jaw-dropping wonder; which occur when we grow in knowledge of Him.
Neither the catholics, Orthodox, HR or myself are worshipping these icons or images. It is simply a matter of someone telling others what they believe instead of asking what they believe.
: HRoberson Thu May 14, 2009 - 21:17:17
: Johnb Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic. However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols. A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons. It can be something as simple as a burning candle. These are used to focus prayer and worship. They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics. They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus.
When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ. We are not worshipping the bread and wine. Catholics use icons in a similar way.
Yup.
Roman Catholics normally use statues. Eastern Orthodox love icons. The Episcopal Church down by the river prefers icons as well.
The Episcopal Church uses icons, what type/kind as I had not heard that?
Which proves my point that we all see "commands" differently and pick and choose.
So you're equivocating
a commandment to not bow down or pray in the name of a dead human being
with
Picking up a serpent
Don't you think that's just a little out of balance?
You want to call it a commandment... fine
But I thing when in doubt one should delineate the difference
in that One has a spiritual consequence ( worshipping, reverencing or praying to an idol or icon )
the other does not. ( if you don't pick up a snake, you'll not suffer for it )
Simple isn't it?
Beyong that its hardly worth the effort to discuss
It was you not I who responded that we must keep His commandments. All I did was prove that we use himan logic (which is fallable) to decide which ones we will keep and which ones we will ignore for whatever reason.
The point is that those being accused of worshipping idols are not! No one is saying we should worship idols. Simply disputing accusations of idol worship from groups that you and some others obviously do not understand.
Have you ever held hands with others while praying? That is a method use to focus on prayer. It is really no different than using an icon.
It was you not I who responded that we must keep His commandments. All I did was prove that we use himan logic (which is fallable) to decide which ones we will keep and which ones we will ignore for whatever reason.
I think you're ignoring what I just posted. Not picking up a serpent has no consequences that I know of do you know of any?
On the other hand
Teaching people to bow down to a statue, or praying to another man, dead or alive other than Jesus, as a mediator between God and man is definitely an error which can and does cause people to stumble
The point is that those being accused of worshipping idols are not!
Throughout the bible bowing and worship are synonymous, when you bow to statues you are in effect giving homage and reverence to that image, it is definitely a form of worship!
Also you are speaking for people you do not know, some people do worship those statues and images. As I stated earlier in some nations such as South America people travel miles to bow before a statue, they carry it through their villages and people consider it a very big deal, as if the statue were God Himself in the flesh....do you deny that?
No one is saying we should worship idols. Simply disputing accusations of idol worship from groups that you and some others obviously do not understand.
You may not be saying it but you are definitely excusing it on one hand while on the other you're saying people don't do it.
I say people certainly do it and it is certainly a stumbling block, not only is it wrong in the OT but
its also the subtle serpent otherwise known as the "spirit of religion" that strikes at the core of the NT and makes the gospel of non effect in the lives of the people for whom Christ gave His life.
John 14:6 / Acts 4:12 / Galatians 1:19 / 1 Cor 3:11
Have you ever held hands with others while praying? That is a method use to focus on prayer. It is really no different than using an icon.
C'mon thats silly! You know better than that! Laying on of hands is scripturally sound doctrine from Genesis to Revelation
I won't even begin to list all the scripture that supports it.
Bottom line don't assume that I am anti Catholic or hostile to them in any way. Only Christ knows who is His.
The visible church is not the determining factor of our salvation nor is any single denomination...
But there is a bible and there is the Word and we cannot just simply concoct our own way when we know Jesus is the Way
John 14:6
curiously this is the verse the most tolerant antagonists of Christianity simply cannot tolerate
Gospel
You are the one being inconsistent. You say we must obey commands then say not obeying some has no consequence. That is inconsistent. I gave a number of commands most do not obey and you tried to single out 1. Either we must obey commands or not. No one obeys them all.
Holding hands in a circle to pray is not the laying on of hands that carried healing in the NT.
Our differences stem from different views of the NT. I see it as the story of Christ coming to earth to give His life that I might have grace and salvation. Christ is our ensample. The NT is not a new rule book to follow but the good news of God.
In Japanese cultures common people bow down to one another as a sign of respect.
Note: You said to one another, something like the Western handshake. In monarchies everyone bows to the king, the king bows to no one. The bible is about a Kingdom, Jesus Christ is King of kings
The higher your social status or government ranking commands a lower bow. This is what Catholics do when they kneel before status of saints. They are not bowing with the intent to worship.
This is a deeper hole because the bible teaches God is not a respecter of persons. Class-ism in Christianity is a man made, man instituted device.
Jesus gave us a pattern when he said the Son of man came to serve and not be served.
Paul stuck to that pattern even when it almost cost him his life in Acts 14
Like the Jews of old would rush to bow down and beg before the prophets of old to mediate miracles from God to them, the Catholics respectfully bow down to the saints to mediate their personal concerns to Christ.
Yep and when prophets bowed before angels, the angels always made prophets get up
Although I dont agree with the pedistool the saints have been raised upon, the pattern remains.The way people cling to the saints is mirrored by how the Jews clung to the prophets.
That's why there's an OT and a NT. People followed held to a lot of tradition that did not go through the cross...although a lot of people are intent on dragging those traditions along anyway.
My point is those things are the fruit of a spirit of religion. Those things detract from the Gospel of Jesus and make the Word of non effect
However, in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do. And he said to them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.Mark 7:6-8
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which you have delivered: and many such like things do you Mark 7:13
Right is right and we shouldn't so easily turn our heads from and excuse what is wrong. Again I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. But when given the opportunity by the Holy Spirit, I will sit down with them bible in hand to show them a more excellent way. And no I do not take every opportunity of my own accord to preach to them in critical judgmental condemnation of their Faith
You are the one being inconsistent. You say we must obey commands then say not obeying some has no consequence. That is inconsistent. I gave a number of commands most do not obey and you tried to single out 1. Either we must obey commands or not. No one obeys them all.
If you're going to insist that picking up snakes is a command then we can drop this right here. Your view my view doesn't matter, show me in the bible where there is a consequence of not picking up a snake. It has nothing to do with views and more to do with knowing what the Word says.
Worshipping idols praying to men dead or alive, worshipping angels are conspicuously against both testaments Old and New.
Or
are you saying it doesn't matter if I'm a practicing wiccan, just as long as I believe in Jesus too.... I'm alright with God?
Is Grace all inclusive? Are there no guidelines?
I believe there are some basics and some things DO matter....sorry you see that as inconsistent
Jax - see reply #41.
Again if anyone gets bored or anything just reply to my post and let me in on the action.lol Im just saying.
Sorry Jax
I believe God does mind if idols of saints are worshipped. The dispute is some posters don't think they are worshipped.
Maybe we should define worship...it can be defined as a pretty broad term
Some people worship money, cars, beauty or a sports team
and if you point it out to them, they'll adamantly deny it.
Their definition of worship is narrow and many do not understand what worship actually entails
: Jax Fri May 15, 2009 - 15:26:12
Throughout the bible bowing and worship are synonymous, when you bow to statues you are in effect giving homage and reverence to that image, it is definitely a form of worship!
Also you are speaking for people you do not know, some people do worship those statues and images. As I stated earlier in some nations such as South America people travel miles to bow before a statue, they carry it through their villages and people consider it a very big deal, as if the statue were God Himself in the flesh....do you deny that?
In Japanese cultures common people bow down to one another as a sign of respect. The higher your social status or government ranking commands a lower bow. This is what Catholics do when they kneel before status of saints. They are not bowing with the intent to worship. Like the Jews of old would rush to bow down and beg before the prophets of old to mediate miracles from God to them, the Catholics respectfully bow down to the saints to mediate their personal concerns to Christ. Although I dont agree with the pedistool the saints have been raised upon, the pattern remains. The way people cling to the saints is mirrored by how the Jews clung to the prophets.
Catholics are not just bowing or showing respect, they are praying to the statues, asking the dead to help them, the prayers to the "Virgin Mary", and all the other "saints", to help those in purgatory, to help them sell their house, protect them, etc.. You will see people kiss the idols of "saints", pray to them, leave notes asking for blessings, kneeling to idols of "saints", giving offering so the idols of "saints" bless them, burning candles to the "saints", etc... That is not just a wayward bow or courtesy, its much more than that.
They dont believe the saints to be divine or on any level as God. They believe and pray to the saints as mediators to Christ. Thats it point blank.
I know you mean well but you really can't speak for all of them....some do see the saints as divine, they pray to their saint before they pray to Jesus...that's wrong no matter how you slice it
Jax (you know there used to be a beer by that name) Good post you nailed it exactly. We need to be worried about our beliefs and pratices and not trying to tell others their beliefs and intentions of their heart.
Gospel
I really don't think you want to get into a discussion of the inspiration and authority of the scriptures with me. However, if you do feel free to start another thread. You coulsd start by researching the pen name you use.
: Jax Fri May 15, 2009 - 17:41:16
Well if thats that Im done. If any of my fellow protestants want to debate any other Catholic issues post away or check out my thread The Authority of the Catholic Church. Until then I hope to debate with you guys again God bless.
Church has no authority. All authority belongs to God the Father, Jesus Christ, and God's Spirit.
The pope may as well be my uncle, they have the same amount of righteousness. Humans do not get to vote spirituality into someone, which is exactly what happens every time they smoke that chimney in Rome.
And by what understanding do you know that some, or even one does believe so? Has a Catholic confessed to holding the saints so high as to be divine and worthy of worship that is reserved entirely for God?
Do Christian people openly admit they worship money? No!
But do some of them....yep!
How about cars? Do some of the ...yep again?
Is pornography a form of body worship....yep!
Are some Christians addicted to porn...yep again!
Do some Catholics worship saints.....without a doubt, ask some who have converted. I believe one of the earlier posts, an ex Catholic actually stated that was the case.
So really it's not about Catholic and Protestant, its more about what do people put between themselves and the Lord
I really don't think you want to get into a discussion of the inspiration and authority of the scriptures with me.
I'm sure I don't...you the man!
However, if you do feel free to start another thread. You coulsd start by researching the pen name you use..
Although that was remotely clever... I've said nothing to merit a rude remark, but according to the Gospel I must forgive you....and I do ::smile::
the Sabbath from Saturday from Sunday
Excuse me...Jesus rose the 1st day of the week
: Jax Fri May 15, 2009 - 18:20:33
What if I admitted right here and now that Im addicted to pornography and sex? I seriously am. Thats my burden in life. I honestly dont feel too much shame seeing how we all fall short of God's grace. We all struggle with something and my thing is sex. Confessing this probably makes most who will read this judge me negatively but I dont hesitate to admit my flaws.
I would say that you need the Lord of the Universe to remove the burden from your life. You don't have to continue in sin, paying penance, and confessing your sins to a guy sitting in a booth. You can confess them to God Himself if you are ready to bow before Him.
God can free you from sin. Free you from the burden you struggle with. Telling a guy in a box about your sin will not free you.
Why would a Catholic who beliefs that worshiping saints is what is right according to God deny it? I could see if they knew it was wrong and did it anyway but you claim that they hold it to holy and glorious in the sight of God. So what hesitation would they have proclaiming this?
I am sure Catholics are intelligent right? The Bible says we are not to worship anything but God. The Bible also says that only God can forgive sin. So why are you asking a man in a booth for forgiveness? Many times, if you want the full truth, you have to find it in the Word of God. We are to study "ourselves" to know the Bible and truth about God.
What if I admitted right here and now that Im addicted to pornography and sex? I seriously am. Thats my burden in life. I honestly dont feel too much shame seeing how we all fall short of God's grace. We all struggle with something and my thing is sex. Confessing this probably makes most who will read this jugde me negatively but I dont hesitate to admit my flaws.
Bad analogy....because sexual addiction is clearly wrong.
I do not judge you, in fact admitting a thing and bringing it into the light is the 1st step toward freedom. In the past I too have had struggles in this area. Many men have. Every Mans Battle is a good book to help you out just in case you haven't heard of it yet.
I can say in all honesty porn addiction is a form of worship. Whatever we worship we serve in some way.
Now ....If a person creates a "special" area of their home with candles, statues of saints and other icons they go to pray in the name of those saints believe me they are worshipping. They have already served by creating and maintaining a special place within their home...e.g church is a special place set aside for corporate worship
Why would a Catholic who beliefs that worshipping saints is what is right according to God deny it?
Most people will not admit what they "think" is right is wrong...that's why
I could see if they knew it was wrong and did it anyway but you claim that they hold it to holy and glorious in the sight of God. So what hesitation would they have proclaiming this?
They don't know its wrong they been taught tradition custom and religiously to adhere to these things and have a multitude of reasons and people to help them justify it
Quote Jax
People who seek to grow and develop dont care to admit when their wrong and most believers I know seek just that.
Exactly. We should always keep our mind open to grow in Christ. PS Jax beer was a cheap beer made in Jackson brewery in New Orleans. It is now closed and is the Jackson mall in the French Quarters/
Gospel
I was not aware I made a rude remark. It was not my intention. If I said something to offend I am sorry. I am only using the logic of those who look at the NT as a pattern or rule book and carry it to its logical conclusion.
I was not aware I made a rude remark. It was not my intention. If I said something to offend I am sorry. I am only using the logic of those who look at the NT as a pattern or rule book and carry it to its logical conclusion.
I'm pretty much Pauline in my understanding of grace.....so I am not condemning or saying people are doomed, that's not the discussion. As far as I'm aware does God mind idol worship of saints in the church was the question
the answer is yes
I don't think that merits being told to go and study the gospel.
You're needlessly waving the grace banner to someone who is carrying it
Have a good weekend ::clappingoverhead::
gospel
That helped me to understand you better. Thanks.
Jax
here is a very short version. The NT repeatedly draws a difference between being under the law and being saved by grace. It is the simple story of Christ's life, death and Resurrection. The it tells the story of the first Christians; their struggles and how they handled their problems. It is a group of letters and gospel stories put together by man. We don't know if the book we have now contains all that was written or even includes some things that should not be there. There is nothing in the writtings that indicate they are rules for all people in all situations. They are just showing us how the early Christians struggled and acted. Some live in a commune type situation. Some sold all and lived in common. It simple is not written as a rule book. The OT God told folks exactly what to do; for this sin you give a lamb and 2 doves... If the NT is a rule book the rules are not spelled out and we have to figure them out on our own. That is not freedom. That puts us in a worse situation than those under the law. I could continue but hopefully you get the drift.
Where in the letters to the different churches does it say this is the way it must be done? Do we have all the letters with all the instructions? The NT simply does not contain a set of laws or rules as the OT did. They are set apart in the OT here is what you must do when. There is not even evidence in the NT that all these letters should be put together with the gospel accounts in one book. This was done by man that fought over which books should and should not be included. Even today that is an open question. The catholic bible contains books that protestant bibles do not. The 1611 KJV contained additional books that were not taken out until fairly recently. Now how can this be a rule book when we can't even determine what all should and should not be in it???
: Hobie Fri May 15, 2009 - 08:01:07
: HRoberson Thu May 14, 2009 - 21:17:17
: Johnb Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic. However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols. A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons. It can be something as simple as a burning candle. These are used to focus prayer and worship. They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics. They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus.
When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ. We are not worshipping the bread and wine. Catholics use icons in a similar way.
Yup.
Roman Catholics normally use statues. Eastern Orthodox love icons. The Episcopal Church down by the river prefers icons as well.
The Episcopal Church uses icons, what type/kind as I had not heard that?
I don't know that the Episcopal Church as such does icons. The Episcopal Church by the river here has several icons that they have commissioned on their walls. My favorite one is an iconic face of Jesus with the words "not made with hands." The icons are oh, 2.5 x 2.5 feet square roughly.
jax
I am sorry but that responce had absolutely nothing to do wth my post. It was so far off the mark I don't even know how to respond to it. The OT law is not just the 10 commandments.
I really think you need to do some study on the OT; how it was viewed and used by the Jews. Then perhaps an indepth study of the development of scripture to include textural criticism both higher and lower and then we may be able to have a real discussion of the text.
Where does the NT claim the disputes addressed in the letters are doctrine to be followed by all people for all times? What are those doctrines?
We don't have the original anything when it comes to the NT. Just copies of copies of copies that often do not agree.
Where does the NT tell us that it is written to tell us how to apply the OT law to life under the gospel? Over and over it tells us that it frees us from the law; calls it a burden that neither you or your fathers were able to bear. The gospel set us free from the burden the law the rule keeping. We are to follow the ensample of Christ trying to do good to all men, spread the gospel and live a moral life to the best of our ability. Each time you broke the law there was a sacrifice that had to be made. We need no more sacrifice Jesus paid it all.
If the NT is a rule book please point me to the place where the rules are layed out like in the OT. How are these rules to be discovered? Is it the CENI method or just what is the theological bases for finding these rules? Who gets to decide what is a rule or a command that we must follow and which ones we can ignore.
: Jax Fri May 15, 2009 - 19:00:31
: fanuvmxpx Fri May 15, 2009 - 18:46:37
: Jax Fri May 15, 2009 - 18:20:33
What if I admitted right here and now that Im addicted to pornography and sex? I seriously am. Thats my burden in life. I honestly dont feel too much shame seeing how we all fall short of God's grace. We all struggle with something and my thing is sex. Confessing this probably makes most who will read this judge me negatively but I dont hesitate to admit my flaws.
I would say that you need the Lord of the Universe to remove the burden from your life. You don't have to continue in sin, paying penance, and confessing your sins to a guy sitting in a booth. You can confess them to God Himself if you are ready to bow before Him.
God can free you from sin. Free you from the burden you struggle with. Telling a guy in a box about your sin will not free you.
Why would a Catholic who beliefs that worshiping saints is what is right according to God deny it? I could see if they knew it was wrong and did it anyway but you claim that they hold it to holy and glorious in the sight of God. So what hesitation would they have proclaiming this?
I am sure Catholics are intelligent right? The Bible says we are not to worship anything but God. The Bible also says that only God can forgive sin. So why are you asking a man in a booth for forgiveness? Many times, if you want the full truth, you have to find it in the Word of God. We are to study "ourselves" to know the Bible and truth about God.
As the only authorative church ordained by Christ's commandment and no others the Catholic Church has authority to do many things but not whatever it wants. When a catholic sins they sin not only against heaven but against the specific Church they represent. As catholics they belief more than honestly any other denomination of Christianity that they are meant to be held to a higher standard than any other group of humans. So when they go before a the priest for confession they ask forgiveness for not living up to the standard they dedicated themselves to. When the priest says "Youre sins are forgiven" they mean literally that St. Angelica or whatever forgives your offense go forth and represent this again by letting your lighjt for Christ shine through your lifestyle.
So now mere men get to set the standards for salvation and repentance?
Do you know who your High Priest is? Who your mediator is? Not one appointed by man.
: Johnb Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53
I am not Catholic. However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols. A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons. It can be something as simple as a burning candle. These are used to focus prayer and worship. They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics. They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus.
When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ. We are not worshipping the bread and wine. Catholics use icons in a similar way.
of course they did worship the images. I was a catholic and believe me they have many gods with them, black white small big old and many other saints they call it almost everyday they have saints and patrons.
you will be confused because their god is different every day. Though i believe there are few in this group who have sincere belief about God the Father, Our Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit but the problem comes when they kneel down infront of those images and recite those long prayers. Most i believe the minds of the people of this group are closed to the understanding of the holy scripture.
Jax
again you have shown your lack of understanding of both my position and scripture. The fact that my view of inspitation and authority is different that yours does not mean I reject either scripture or inspiration.
Quote jax
Then help me to understand. You believe that NT is the inspired authoritative Word of God but it wasn't meant to be a rule book. Then what was it meant for in your opinion?
I have explained my position several times. Although we have not went into the details of what inspiration of the Bible means. I don't think I have used difficult or hard to understand language it seems you simply refuse to understand what I have said. As far as "authoritative" if you are referring to how we do church or a set of doctrines based on the letters written to the churches that must be interprated and some how applied to life today no. That is not a type of authority claim by scripture on;y by folks interp. scripture. 500 groups look at the same scripture and come up with 500 different rules no that is not clear and authoritative. God is not the author of confusion. Why do you think folks in 303 AD felt the need to try to come up with a few basic doctines (not rules but confessions of faith) that at least most could agree on.
Here is the NC you are so fond of refering to. It was an attempt to state what Christians believe and pratice.
Where are all the rules you keep talking about? They are not here because they is not anything in scripture that could be viewed as "rules" that Christians can agree on. Only the siple facts of the gospel are included.
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
: Jax Sat May 16, 2009 - 15:09:52
: Johnb Sat May 16, 2009 - 08:08:23
Jax
again you have shown your lack of understanding of both my position and scripture. The fact that my view of inspitation and authority is different that yours does not mean I reject either scripture or inspiration.
Then help me to understand. You believe that NT is the inspired authorative Word of God but it wasnt meant to be a rule book. Then what was it meant for in your opinion?
It's a description of God, and it's a description of what you were made to live as. Scripture is more descriptive than definitive.
I'd say it's a description of God's relationship with man. Describing God is not easy or even possible (1 Cor 1:25), but I more or less agree with you HR.
It has theology in it, but it is not a rule book or a book of theology. It helps to weed out heresy, but is not the sole authority. The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), not the NT.
HR and Triefcta agree with both. simple yet conplex. Not a rule book. We be brothers in Christ.
jax ask
Then where do the rules we live by come from?
Do you mean Christians or society?
This early in the morning many thoughts flow through my mind. Thoughts that GOD sends and in no particular order. First, it appears that Larry has posted a very good valid mesage. If GOD was angry about the so called "idols" HE could if he chose destroy them. HE did such things in time gone by and I seriously doubt that GOD has lost any of HIS power, unlike many of us HE is ageless. It is written ' My father`s house has many mansions , this must mean , it has to mean, that HE has made allowances for the many many forms of worship. GOD seems to be alright with it as long as it is HE that is worshiped. My final thought is that it is also written "Judge notlest thee be judged". Now I just said my final thought but these thoughts were not mine. Thank you JESUS. We won`t really know the correctness , the validity, of our different positions until we reach heaven and can get the WORD from the real and final authority. That is the only thing I can say with absolute certainty. I do lookforward to that day with eagerness.
: Johnb Thu May 14, 2009 - 07:28:53I am not Catholic. However, if you talk with a Catholic you Will discover they are not worshipping idols. A number of things are used and several diverent Christian denominations they are called religious icons. It can be something as simple as a burning candle. These are used to focus prayer and worship. They have been used for centuries and not just by Catholics. They are not worshipping the image itself (which would be idol worship) but simply using it to focus.
When a group takes the Lord's Supper (we do every Sunday where I attend) the bread and wine are symbols that help us focus on the death of Christ. We are not worshipping the bread and wine. Catholics use icons in a similar way.
Please, my family comes from a Catholic background, and clearly it is the worship of the graven image/idol as from ancient times, there is no denying it.