No-Fault Rape? Shared Blame?

boringoldguy · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 12:07:53

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Oct. 16 2003,11:42)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In addition, scientist are now saying that the brains of children and teenagers are wired differently than adults; that they are not physically capable of adult thinking. [/quote]
I've seen a few articles about this Kari.

Frankly, it doesn't square with my memories of being a teenager. It seems to me, as best I remember, that I knew I was doing wrong when I did it, and I could have chosen not to do it.

One societal trend that I have noticed is that we treat young people more and more like adults in every aspect of their lives except when it comes to accepting responsibility for themselves. Society lets them have all the freedoms that goes with adulthood, but Mom and Dad still have to foot the bills and clean up the mess.

Trois · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 13:28:22

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't know; Val is a pretty darn potent temptation! But I do have a LOT of trouble buying the argument that men are physically much less able to resist sexual temptation. If my husband is able to resist the allure of a Halle in front of me, then that allure is obviously not so potent that he can't resist it when I'm not around. In other words, it is the same as the 'innocent by reason of insanity' defense. If a man is clear-headed enough to try to avoid getting caught cheating, he's not so caught up in lust that he can't resist, is he? [/quote]

Great response Kari,

I think that the argument is not a matter of less able but differently responsive. A woman's lust for temptation is probably just as potent as a man's but her automatic response to visual or even tactile stimuli is different (and probably more outwardly socially acceptable). Being overcome with lust is not the insanity of chemical, physiological, or psychological deviance. It's more of the altered state of priority and entitlement type insanity of Hannible Lechter or a dog in heat. As long as it is safely locked away in an asylum or chained to a post in the backyard it is safe. But if the asylum doors are ever opened or the chain should ever break, the opportunistic nature of the lust will roar forth.

Jesus Himself understood that our lust are opportunistic in the sermon on the mount. That's the whole "pluck out the eye/cut off the hand thing". The problem with lust is that even though it's intent is usually pretty simple, it's technique is often complex and devious and it is based on opportunity. Only radical and pervasive dcisions can prevent lust from fulfilling it's desires. :frowning:

Therefore to look on a woman with lustful intentions is considered doing the do in the Christ paradigm because all that separates intent from activity is opportunity.

More to the present example, I say that if hubby were viewing, with fornicatory* intent, an accessible and willing, nude Halle , even in your fine presence (and you must be fine if you can compete with Halle!), he might not consummate the act, but it would be only because of your presence. Your presence hinders the opportunity. But if the opportunity were there the probability of immediate consummation skyrockets! :blush:

Jesus says that he has already committed the act. If not in consummation, then in conception.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] By the way, Trois, what does this mean?

Quote:
"Neither do I think those who truly rape should be excused because of their male proclivities."

Is that opposed to some sort of false rape?[/quote]
:rant: Hmmmmmmm,

Well that is opposed to activity that is said to be rape by one party but actually wasn't or activity that was perceived as rape to one party but not to the other. I mean to me the whole sado-masochistic idea is rife with actual rape. But if you asked the dominance submission crew they would call me a "square". I think all forms of prostitution is rape. But the pimps, ladies (loosely used), and clients of this industry would call me puritanistic. And actually sex between an 18 year old boy and a 16 or 17 year old girl is statutory rape in some states because they would say she was too young to give consent. :rolleyes:

The scenarios can go on and on.

If that didn't make it about as clear as muddy water... hit me again and I'll give it another shot. :shrugsmiley:

(*don't know if "fornicatory" is even a word but hey who's checkin') :rant:

:wave:

janine · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 13:47:09

Interesting - A Parallel Thread

janine · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 15:26:58

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]... A woman would probably not have as pronounced a physical response as a man (no pun intended), or maybe even not as compelling an urge. So you probably don't understand the magnitude of the general difference between your two examples...
I really don't think we can judge men and women the same way on this subject. When I say judge I don't mean adjudicate the law. I mean understand that men and women given the same set of circumstances and the same set of stimuli will not respond from the same place emotionally, chemically, spiritually, or physiologically.[/quote]
:alert: Warning-- Possible Crudity Alert:alert:

Trois... excuse me ... I am not sure what sort of tame, docile, possibly tranquilized women you been hangin' with, my brother...

But we surely do get driven up walls and have fierce physiological responses! Just because nothing of mine will ... um... protrude a foot? :blush: ... doesn't mean there's not a forest fire inside, sugar.

:alert: Crudity Alert OFF :alert:

Trois · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 15:29:57

booty said:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]What an opportunity to witness!!! A whole vat of strippers!!! [/quote]

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!FOF!!! :D

The devil in me says... "What an opportunity!" :blush: :givingkiss: :yummy: :applause:

Oh give me a break!!! I know it was bad! I just couldn't resist! I'm sure Kari understands!! :noworries: :noworries: :noworries:

Trois · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 15:32:19

Janine,

Now that was hilarious!!! Crude... but hilarious. :doh: :whistle: :noworries:

janine · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 16:43:36

Trois, baby, honey-man, I was deadly serious. :soapbox:

'Course you know me, I can't be serious even when I'm serious... ;)

Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 21:15:24

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Frankly, it doesn't square with my memories of being a teenager. It seems to me, as best I remember, that I knew I was doing wrong when I did it, and I could have chosen not to do it.[/quote]

I don't know; I certainly see a difference between my mind at 42 and my mind at fourteen!

But I agree about the artificially responsibility-free nature of American adolescence. Maybe our children and teens have to grow into responsibility for their sexual behavior the same way they grow into responsibility for their other behaviors.

Trois, if one party to a sexual activity truly perceives it as rape, then it wasn't consensual and therefore IS rape.

Of course, in these situations only the accuser, the accused and the Almighty know the truth. But unproven doesn't mean it isn't rape.

Janine, I wanted to comment on the myth that women lack a strong sexual urge, but didn't want to sound trashy.

I suspect a "vat o' strippers" ministry might be the only one in the church to have to turn away volunteers.

Trois · Thu Oct 16, 2003 - 23:46:25

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I suspect a "vat o' strippers" ministry might be the only one in the church to have to turn away volunteers. [/quote]

No doubt Kari. No doubt. :noworries:

But in the other case I don't know. It seems to me in order for something to be rape their needs to be some intentionality on the supposed rapist behalf. What thinkest thou? :rant:

janine · Fri Oct 17, 2003 - 04:54:12

Glad I could handle this for you, Kari. :thumbup:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Janine, I wanted to comment on the myth that women lack a strong sexual urge, but didn't want to sound trashy.[/quote]

Janine's Snappy Delivery Service
Offering to Sound Trashy In YOUR Stead
Since 1963

boringoldguy · Fri Oct 17, 2003 - 08:46:27

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Oct. 16 2003,9:15)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I suspect a "vat o' strippers" ministry might be the only one in the church to have to turn away volunteers.[/quote]
Our church actually has such a ministry, but it's a ladies-only thing.

Trois · Fri Oct 17, 2003 - 09:31:18

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Janine's Snappy Delivery Service[/u]
Offering to Sound Trashy In YOUR Stead
Since 1963[/quote]
Janine,

Hilarious once again. Oh yeah, didn't mean to cheapen your former response though. :)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Quote (Guest @ Oct. 16 2003,9:15):

"I suspect a "vat o' strippers" ministry might be the only one in the church to have to turn away volunteers."

Our church actually has such a ministry, but it's a ladies-only thing.[/quote]

BOG,

No wonder your life is boring! What's the use in having a ministry that doesn't minister to it's most obvious target audience? Sheesh! :shrugsmiley: :uhh: Oh yeah... did you volunteer? :whistle: :noworries:

Booty · Fri Oct 17, 2003 - 19:40:32

Please pray for me.

The case I told you about, well today Angelica met with the man for the first time and he confessed to raping the 10 year old girl. He is going to confess to his family this Sunday during theor visit to him and will be pleading guilty at this next hearing on the 4th of November.

We went together to talk to the family, we did not actually tell them as Vicente said he would do that Sunday, but Angelica did talk about details of where he is at and why he is detained, (La Logna, Child Protective Services put him in custody to protect the child, here the safety of the child supercedes any rights to liberty of the perpretrator)

I taught afterwards on repentance and forgiveness and their importance.

Vicente expressed a desire to Angelica that he wants to receive the Word with the intention of baptising. Carlos and I will be visiting him in jail to this end.

We also met for the first time his wife and three lovely daughters, the oldest is maybe 7. Wee little dolls they are, puppets!

I really need prayer in this as this will be the most difficult thing that I have ever done since I accepted the Lord's callling. I taught forgiveness tonight, but Lord forgive me, I am a hard man and I will have a hard time meeting with Vicente. Four little girls. The ten year old he raped and those three precious wee bairn I met tonight.

Forgive me Lord and please fill me with your blessed Holy Spirit that I might look on Vicente as a sinner seeking your grace.

memmy · Fri Oct 17, 2003 - 22:59:44

Booty, Consider this done already :pray: ............I am so sorry for this situation, in every way......there must be much hurt in all of those involved in every aspect of this situation.

May God be with you in all that you and all involved will have to go through, especially this sweet child and all she will have to endure in her young life and in years to come.

Memmy :(

Trois · Sat Oct 18, 2003 - 01:32:29

Almighty God,

Please give Brojees the all-consuming love of Christ. Stir up your Spirit within him that he might forgive the unforgiveable as you did when you sent our Lord to die for all men's sins. Protect his heart from the evil one and his mind from the urgings of the flesh.

O Father... give him eyes to see the end of his faith and your unsearchable wisdom in coming face to face with the result of the fall in this man who was a sexual predator. He will need you Father so that he can represent the interest of the kingdom and not his desire to issue condemnation from righteous anger.

Protect the 10 year old girls future. Provoide healing for her mind and spirit and little body. Keep her safe within your presence and surrounded by a family of love. Nurture her through the church with an environment of spiritual people who know how to model the steadfast love and faith of Christ even in the midst of adversity and unexplainable circumstances.

You are our God. Please show yourself strong.

In Jesus name,

Amen.

janine · Sat Oct 18, 2003 - 03:47:04

Father, Abba, our Own -

How does our brother Brojees do this? How is he to somehow guide and support the little girl, and have an effect on her home life, so as to minimize her chances of being abused again, and work somehow with the abuser, showing him the love of Christ when all he really wants to do is hurt the man?

And the little ones at home, the children of this man! If justice is done to him, how they will suffer!

Why, Abba? Why is sin so tarry? How is it we're left here to wallow in it when we could be home with you? We have so many more questions than answers, Father.

But then you know these things, this pain. You know what it is to watch your Beloved reviled and discounted, tortured and violated.

To whom can we turn for more understanding than you can give? Where else can we go, Abba, for healing and meaning and strength to do the impossible?

There is no hope but you, Father Son and Spirit. No lasting change for the better, no joy out of sorrow, no chance for deliverance from the tar pit.

Bless you, sweet Abba, and thank you for your care. Fill us with your love so we'll get up off our self-pitying, self-indulgent bottoms and get our hands dirty and our hearts bruised, loving others for love of you...

John Foster · Sun Oct 19, 2003 - 04:08:03

Father help us to understand,
to feel the pain of those who have been violated.
To understand what drives a person to do such things.
We pray for wisdom for those who counsel, give them love and your grace.
We ask this in your son's name, our Lord Jesus.
Amen

Woodman · Sun Oct 26, 2003 - 06:10:31

as a new user i wonder if i may add a thought ? i have looked at matthew 5:28 and feel that the same principle there,may be applied here:- that the serious intent of rape is a sin,and therefore sin is committed in the eyes of god even before the physical act has taken place.i appreciate that in some cases,the perpetrator may be mentally incapable of such clear distinction.but god looks at the heart and sees what is going on there.

Booty · Sun Oct 26, 2003 - 07:07:00

Today Richard and Christian will find out the truth if Vicente confesses to them as he said he would.

Please pray that these two fine young men can accept the Lord's teachings that they have received as their view of their much loved Uncle changes drastically before their eyes.

I truly hate what I see happening here, one man succombs to temptation and so many will suffer.

Tonight Richard and Christian will probably be telling their family of Vicente's guilt. There will be many wounded hearts in Clarines tonight. I expect we will be there in force to help as we can.

We have all tried to prepare that congregation for the truth as best we could without actually telling them. It is Vicente's lot to tell them.

Now we pray, join us?

Oh Lord of Lords, King of Kings today we lift to you Clarines and a family to be torn asunder by the cruel knowledge that the blood of their blood has sinned. Comfort them as the horror of this act comes to rest on them. Be there with them to aid them in understanding we all are sinners. Let them know your love and not the rage of this world as they realize the shame this act brings on them and theirs.

Be with Ieda as she accepts that the father of her children, her husband, has committed an act of infidelity and depravity. Be with those three wee bairn as they learn Papi will not be coming home and that he has been a bad man. Help them to accept and forgive.

Be with us as well Father, beloved Papi, as we try to minister to this family and as well as we try to witness to Vicente in prison. Be with Vicente as he suffers and help us bring him to you to be washed of this horrible stain on him.

Señor, forgive me as well my weakness and please Lord, help me to control the revulsion I feel.

Amen

All,

Why did it fall on us to minister to the rapist and his family? Why? This is so much harder than ministering to the victim, I pray we are ready. I asked the Lord to pass this cup from us, but that is not to be. Oh Lord, not our will but yours. Lord give us strength.

janine · Sun May 29, 2005 - 23:09:06

Yet another reason why I wish we had regular frequent contact with Booty -- I wonder what was the last he heard from these people.

ConnieLard · Tue May 31, 2005 - 10:35:47

That would have been a very difficult thing to do - to minister to the rapist. Your heart naturally goes out to the one to whom the wrong was done, and it's hard to remember that the perpetrator is beloved of God, too. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

As for the idea of no-fault rape, in the state of Alabama it is considered rape to have sex with a girl who is under the age of 16 if the male is at least 16 years old and at least two years older. This means that a 17 year old guy who has sex with his willing 15 year old girlfriend could be prosecuted for rape. While I would agree that the act is wrong, I'm not sure that it should be considered rape. Any thoughts on this?

boringoldguy · Tue May 31, 2005 - 16:46:15

I'm entirely in favor of prosecuting so-called "statutory rape."

We have to remember that laws are for the good of society, and not to provide some kind of abstract justice in specific cases. The good to society that comes from protecting young women at a time when their capacity for reasoned judgment in these matters is not fully developed far outweighs the harm that is done by locking up a guy who is, after all, a sexual predator. The fact that consent is allowed as a defense if the alleged rapist was no more than two years older than the victim provides enough wiggle room for situations where jail isn't really a good idea.

zoonance · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 12:44:35

I know a young man who is in jail because the underage girl got pregnant. Her parents filed charges. She had to have a paternity test to confirm that he was the one. She frequented bars and parties and no one would have suspected that she was underage. He got two years. She gets child support et al. It takes two to tango and only one to go to the bank. Justice has been served? I know another couple who gave the baby up for adoption. Another one got married and are making a go at it. This young man was sent to jail. Same basic age differences. Which is best for society? for children? for parents? Statutory rape is a human term with human consequences. Which solution would be the most biblical?

boringoldguy · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 13:21:28

As I said, the criminal law exists to serve society's interests and not to dispense "justice" in any particular case. It appears from your story that there's no question the young man had intercourse with this girl, and there's no question about her age, so I find it hard to see any injustice in this situation. As to what is best for society, I'd say that every time a fellow who has heard this story sits in a bar next to a young woman and thinks to himself "Maybe I'd better not mess around with someone I don't even know", then we all benefit.

tidbit · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 14:31:29

One of the severe consequences of the statutory rape laws is that the offender (usually the man) will receive a conviction for a sex crime, and will be required to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Lots of consequences flow from this--you never know when the people of your neighborhood are going to show up at your door one night with torches, pitchforks, tar & feathers.

I realize that this is an unpopular sentiment, but sex offenders are not all alike. I believe it is the deviants (usually middle-aged or older males) who prey upon pre-teen children (boys and girls) who we need the most protection against. The high school senior who gets involved with an over-developed and over-sexed freshman or sophomore is probably not going to be a danger to society ten years from now. That's how I see it, anyway.

ConnieLard · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 14:38:22

I agree with that, Tidbit.

boringoldguy · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 16:09:29

Tidbit

You have daughters. I'll be interested in hearing what you think when the first one starts high school and these poor senior boys you're concerned about won't leave her alone, and she's letting her head be turned by the excitement of having boys chasing her.

boringoldguy · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 16:19:06

I can't put my finger on it, but I ran into some statistics a few years ago about the average age at which the sexes have intercourse for the first time. The average age for girls was several years younger than the average age for boys. What this meant was that there was a very small group of young men who were engaging in sex with multiple young girls - girls several years younger than they. In other words, they were using these girls and then discarding them. And we all know from our own high school days that this is the way it happens.

As far as I'm concerned, branding these little creeps as sex criminals is too easy, but being that dueling is frowned upon these days and most of these girls don't have dads in the home anyway, it's the best we can do.

tidbit · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 16:23:25

Hey, I know what's on those boys' minds, believe me!

I'm not saying it's alright, and I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished. But neither does this behavior to me indicate a sexual perversion on part of the boys.

Assuming that the sexual contact is not coerced in any way, a teenaged boy shouldn't be labeled as a sex offender for the rest of his life for having a sexual encounter with a post-pubescent female. That's all I'm saying. (Ask me again in three years.)

boringoldguy · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 16:25:23

How do you feel about shooting them dead in the street?
I think that's the best solution.

tidbit · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 16:54:04

QuoteHow do you feel about shooting them dead in the street?
I think that's the best solution.

I think that's a better solution. It's swift. It's cheap. It's final. It sends a warning to others. Go for it!

boringoldguy · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 17:03:56

Just recently we had a trial that was moved here from an adjoining county - a shooting that came out of a sex crime (more egregious than statutory rape.) After the shooting, the shooter tied the body behind his pickup, dragged it down the main street of the rural community where the shooting occurred, and left it at the dump.

When this shooting took place a couple of years ago, I commented that in the county in question, had he just left the body where it fell and called the sheriff, the shooter would probably not even be indicted, but that the dragging was a little bit over the top.

After a couple of misfires, and a change of venue, the case was tried in our county.

The verdict - Not guilty of murder; guilty of tampering with evidence.

The verdict is on appeal - the defendant's lawyer has said they didn't try to conceal anything, they did this in front of the whole town.

That's life in the border country.

tidbit · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 17:15:26

Even Don Diego de la Vega was a mere vigilante, would you agree?

zoonance · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 17:16:20

Actually, from what I hear, oral is in. is Oral statutory "rape" (concentual) Is statutory rape usually tied to a pregnancy (barring semen dna analysis after a date.) Is it really statutory pregnancy... sort of. (consensual stuff i mean.) just wondering.

tidbit · Thu Jun 02, 2005 - 17:29:14

Here is an article that appeared in my local newspaper today about registered (and unregistered) sex offenders:

AG Targets Unregistered Sex Offenders

Zoo-- In Texas oral sex between involving a child (defined as a person less than 17 years old) is considered Aggravated Sexual Assault of a Child, is a felony of the first degree, and is punishable by five to ninety-nine years or life in prison, and the offender would have to register as a sex offender for life. However, if the 'child' is at least 14 years old, it is a defense to prosecution that the actor was not more than three years older than the child. So yes, oral sex still counts, whether it is 'in' or not.

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