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                                        Daniel in the New Testament

Hi Daq,  I find it beneficial to lay down a foundation for us to work from, rather than randomly quoting Scriptures, without direction. It's always good for us to find something to "agree

Hi Shane
Amen to most of that. So then, where is the first mention of the Hebrew WORD "tamiyd" (HSN#8548) in the Scripture, and thus, to what does it pertain in its very first usage? 

 

Exodus 25:30ESV

Wnatata `al- hashulchan lechem paniymlpanay tamiyd. TUA

And thou shalt set upon the table shew-bread before me alway. KJV


|5414| And you will put
|5921| on
|7979| the table of
|3899| the bread of
|4635| the presence
|6440| before Me
|8548| continually.

Quote from: daq on Wed Aug 10, 2011 - 21:12:01
Hi Shane
Amen to most of that. So then, where is the first mention of the Hebrew WORD "tamiyd" (HSN#8548) in the Scripture, and thus, to what does it pertain in its very first usage? 

 

And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before Me alway Exodus 25:30

נתן Nathan שלחן shulchan לחם lechem פנים paniym תמיד tamiyd

The Hebrew is lehem paniym, literally "bread of the faces," or "of the presence." This name reminded priests, and the people that they were in the presence of Yahweh, and His ministering spirits, the angels.

When Cain was cut off from "the faces" (paniym) of Yahweh in Gen 4:14, he was denied access to the cherubim who were stationed east of the Garden of Eden, and whose faces "turned every way" to preserve the "way to the tree of life."

As you no doubt know the faces of cherubim looked down from the veil in the Holy Place, again giving a further significance to the name/s of this bread; the significance found in the name of this bread is further understood by the Shekinah glory that shone forth from between the cherubim over the mercy seat. 

We could go on to expound other names for this bread; however this may be an unnecessary tangent.  This verse is full of meaning and very profound significance which many Christians today would not comprehend because of the trinity and its error. 

Shane

Have you considered the names for the bread?  

lehem ha-tamid, or bread of continuance Num 4:7 & 2 Chr 2:4

lehem hammaakareth, or bread of the ordering 1 Chr 9:32

lehem kodeth, or holy bread 1 Sam 21:5-6

Each name has great meaning!

Twelve loaves of unleavened bread (also see Jos Ant 3:6:6) were placed in two rows upon the table details of which are found in Lev. 24:5,6,7,8,9.

Enjoy B2R & Daq!

Amen to both and BTR it appears you got some new tools!  

This was my point for asking the question: The first usage of "tamiyd" (continual) concerns the shewbread. The continual shewbread, as we should all know, represents the Bread of Life which is Yeshua, THE WORD. The following are the first six places where "tamiyd" is found. The sixth is in regards to the twice-daily sacrifice.

The Shewbread

Exodus 25:30 KJV
30.  And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me alway (tamiyd).

The Seven Lamp Menorah

Exodus 27:20 KJV
20.  And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always (tamiyd).

The Breastplate of [righteous] Judgement

Exodus 28:29 KJV
29.  And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually (tamiyd).

Exodus 28:30 KJV
30.  And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually (tamiyd).

The Embossed Gold Plate of the Mitsnepheth-Mitre

Exodus 28:38 KJV
38.  And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always (tamiyd) upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.

The Continual [twice daily] Sacrifice

Exodus 29:38-39 KJV
38.  Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually (tamiyd).
39.  The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

However, concerning the continual twice-daily sacrifice the word "yowm" (a day) is employed with "tamiyd" for the phrase "day by day continually" ("shnayim layowm tamiyd" or "two for the day continually"). So the fact of the matter is that when Daniel uses "tamiyd" it does not mean "daily" (which would be one form of "yowm" or another) and especially not "daily sacrifice" as is translated in most English versions, ("sacrifice"-burnt offering- `olah, etc., is a whole different set of words in the Hebrew and none of them are found in any of the "AOD" verses of Daniel in conjunction with the word "tamiyd"). The "tamiyd" concerns all of the holy and continual things, in the case of the AOD verses it means primarily The Word. YHWH calls for a famine of the Word in Amos 8:11 and this is the same in Daniel 8:11. The Word is lifted up, taken up, even exalted, (HSN#7311 ruwm).

Daniel 8:11 TUA
11.  W`ad Sar- hatsaba' higdiyl. Uwmimenuw huwram {*} hatamiyd.  Whushlak mkown miqdashow.
11.  Even unto the Prince of the army it/he magnified. And mimenuw-from him was lifted-up - taken-up - exalted (HSN#7311 ruwm) the tamiyd. And was cast down the habitation-place of his miqdash-chapel.

Original Strong's Ref. #7311
Romanized  ruwm
Pronounced room
a primitive root; to be high actively, to rise or raise (in various applications, literally or figuratively):
KJV--bring up, exalt (self), extol, give, go up, haughty, heave (up), (be, lift up on, make on, set up on, too) high(-er, one), hold up, levy, lift(-er) up, (be) lofty, (X a-)loud, mount up, offer (up), + presumptuously, (be) promote(-ion), proud, set up, tall(-er), take (away, off, up), breed worms.

Keep in mind that the saints follow Christ who is the first fruits of them that slept, first in the resurrection, the first in everything. Does the Scripture state that Yeshua will be lifted up, exalted, glorified, taken up? In more ways than just the Ascension:

John 3:14-15 KJV
14.  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15.  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Daniel 8:11 began at the Cross ~ the saints follow Christ

Matthew 9:15 KJV
15.  And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Point #1  ~  The Tamiyd of Daniel is the continual-daily Word.

From this first small step anyone can easily reject what is presented and forget about the rest because our foundations will be different concerning this matter. OR! the same anyone may take these things into account as the REAL possibility of the Truth that few have ever even heard before and we can move forward: the choice is yours.

 

Well done Daq !!!

If you consider the twelve loaves of unleaved bread  we identify this today with the true "Israel

I just have to throw this in here, more food for thought I supposed. I know there are different meanings for the word Messiah. But from where I come from, this is a term used for kneading bread. It's plural too. It's pronounced the same, with 2 consonants (syllables?) instead of 3. Mess-iah.

Quote from: Insight on Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 02:41:39
Although your comment suggesting Jesus WAS the "WORD" may not be in accordance with Bible understanding.  Was Jesus the Word made Flesh full of Grace and Truth, before his death, resurrection and ascension, or do you believe he was the WORD made Flesh from his birth

If you say from his birth then we may part ways

Hi Shane
Not sure why we may have to "part ways" as it has been no secret what I believe concerning Yeshua: Not only that he "was" the Word, (as you put it) but that he was, he is, and he always will be the Word. Just because I stated what was the truth concerning "gospel" does not mean that I condemn him, nor do I condemn you for that matter, which is why I spoke the truth that "gospel" did in fact get your thread deleted which was not right. However that does not mean I have sort of "ganged up" with you or anyone else to "defeat" anyone else either, (the main reason I do not often respond to private messages). We can part ways if you want to but then it would seem somewhat hypocritical to me because here you are posting threads in the other open boards with thousands of others who believe just like I do that Yeshua was, is, and always will be DEITY. I believe John Ch.1 where it is written that the Word was in the beginning with the Theou, YHWH, and the Word was Deity, (Gen.1:1 is Jn.1:1). One of the names of Christ pre-incarnate with the Father is, of course, 'Elohiym, another is 'Adonay-'Adoni. Just because I have not condemned you does not mean I completely agree with your doctrine, it simply means I would prefer to speak the truth no matter what, when, or where. Perhaps, though, it might be better not to continue here because our foundations are much further apart then I had imagined, (I was hopeful that maybe perhaps the name change signified a new direction in you). 

Hi Daq,

I agree with most of what is said.

However,

Quote

We can part ways if you want to but then it would seem somewhat hypocritical to me because here you are posting threads in the other open boards with thousands of others who believe just like I do that Yeshua was, is, and always will be DEITY. I believe John Ch.1 where it is written that the Word was in the beginning with the Theou, YHWH, and the Word was Deity, (Gen.1:1 is Jn.1:1).

The Eternal Word created Gen Chapter 1 and before this the earth and the heavens were not created.

The Eternal Word created John Chapter 1 and before this the Son was not created.

The Eternal Word is the Word of Yahweh Who is and was and will always be the sole source for spoken truth and power. 

Moses recorded the natural creation where John recorded the spiritual creation. 

Sorry Daq, you cannot have one without the other.  If you believe the WORD created the physical heavens and the earth and they did NOT pre-exist, you also must acknowledge the same WORD created Jesus and as he was made flesh. 

Where we differ is our understanding and definition of the WORD and its source.

I define the WORD as being the Fathers alone - this was Jesus' teaching and it is mine also

Finally, in terms of my expression "parting ways

Hi Daq,

I am not understanding your thoughts here... it may just be my lack of comprehension???

Quote

However, concerning the continual twice-daily sacrifice the word "yowm" (a day) is employed with "tamiyd" for the phrase "day by day continually" ("shnayim layowm tamiyd" or "two for the day continually"). So the fact of the matter is that when Daniel uses "tamiyd" it does not mean "daily" (which would be one form of "yowm" or another) and especially not "daily sacrifice" as is translated in most English versions, ("sacrifice"-burnt offering- `olah, etc., is a whole different set of words in the Hebrew and none of them are found in any of the "AOD" verses of Daniel in conjunction with the word "tamiyd"). The "tamiyd" concerns all of the holy and continual things, in the case of the AOD verses it means primarily The Word. YHWH calls for a famine of the Word in Amos 8:11 and this is the same in Daniel 8:11. The Word is lifted up, taken up, even exalted, (HSN#7311 ruwm).

Here is my understanding of Daniel 8:11

"And by him the daily sacrifice was taken away"

We both know the daily sacrifice was offered every morning and evening in the Temple (See Exod. 29:38-39); but here Daniel is predicting this "sacrifice

Hi Shane
Try to change your mindset for the moment and picture this as what our great High Priest Yeshua does for the people of YHWH in his eternal ministerial position because, for one reason, Lev.16, Dan.8, and Rev.12 are all companion chapters and no one will understand any of this without Torah, (which is why no one really understands it, because they reject Torah or separate it from prophecy). There are two different words employed in the "AOD" verses of Daniel yet both translated indentical into the English. They are words which stem in this context from sacrificial commands and they go hand in hand. They are HSN#7311 "ruwm" and HSN#5493 "cuwr" respectively found in Dan.8:11, Dan.11:31, & Dan.12:11. The first is to take up, lift up, exalt, raise up, (ruwm) as already shown. The other word "cuwr" is to take away; as in cutting or "chopping off" and separating. Picture a butcher with a large cleaver making a chopping type cut and then the smaller portion which he has just severed upon the block he sweeps away with the cleaver still down. That would be "cuwr" in the majority of its sacrificial applications. The first word "ruwm" in the sacrificial commands is more like to lift up or raise up while cutting away, lifting in an upward motion, even pulling upward while cutting away the fat for example.

Genesis 7:17 KJV
17.  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up (HSN#7311 ruwm) above the earth.

The waters of the flood raised up - lifted up - heaved up the Ark.

Exodus 14:15-16 KJV
15.  And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:
16.  But lift thou up (HSN#7311 ruwm) thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

Exodus 15:2 KJV
2.  The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt (HSN#7311 ruwm) him.

HSN#7311 ruwn is translated "heaved up" in Exodus 29:27

Exodus 29:27 KJV
27.  And thou shalt sanctify the breast of the wave offering, and the shoulder of the heave offering, which is waved, and which is heaved up, (HSN#7311 ruwm) of the ram of the consecration, even of that which is for Aaron, and of that which is for his sons:

Exodus 29:27 LIT
27.
  |6942| And you will sanctify
  |0853| -
  |2373| the breast
  |8578| of the wave-offering,
  |0000| and
  |7785| the shoulder of
  |8641| the heave-offering,
  |0834| which
  |5130| is waved
  |0834| and which
  |7311| {is} lifted ["heaved up" KJV]
  |0352| from the ram of
  |4394| consecration,
  |0834| from what {is}
  |0175| Aaron's
  |0834| and from what {is}
  |1121| his sons'.

See what this means? The English Bible translators pulled a fast one because they obviously did not comprehend the difference implied within the two different words employed in Daniel for the same subject, (the Abomination of Desolation). Therefore they translated both words as to take away which is not wrong but unfortunately hides the full impact. It simply is not possible to see any of this in the English translations. Watch what happens when the two words appear together in the context of sacrificial commandments:

Leviticus 4:8-10 KJV
8.  And he shall take off [upward motion] (HSN#7311 ruwm) from it all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
9.  And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away, (HSN#5493 cuwr)
10.  As it was taken off (HSN#7311 ruwm) from the bullock of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall burn them upon the altar of the burnt offering.

The fat was cut away, with an upward motion as it was cut, and the upward motion is an inference that "all the fat belongs to YHWH", offered up, heave, (ruwm) and that portion is to then be "set aside" or "separated" for that purpose, (cuwr). The word "cuwr" is also translated as BEHEADED and the place where it is so translated there is no other possible way to understand it, (thus the word usage is perfect, intentional, and every word counts as always).

2 Samuel 4:7 KJV
7.  For when they came into the house, he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, and they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded (HSN#5493 cuwr) him, and took his head, and gat them away through the plain all night.

Original Strong's Ref. #5493
Romanized  cuwr
Pronounced soor
or suwr (Hos.9v12) {soor}; a primitive root; to turn off (literal or figurative):
KJV--be[-head], bring, call back, decline, depart, eschew, get [you], go (aside), X grievous, lay away (by), leave undone, be past, pluck away, put (away, down), rebel, remove (to and fro), revolt, X be sour, take (away, off), turn (aside, away, in), withdraw, be without.

The KJV quotes here are simply for comparison:

Daniel 8:11 KJV
11.  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, (HSN#7311 ruwm) and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 11:31 KJV
31.  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away (HSN#5493 cuwr) the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 KJV
11.  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, (HSN#5493 cuwr) and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The difference between these two different words both implying different aspects of "to take away" in these three verses of Daniel quoted above is that Dan.8:11 concerns firstly the exaltation and glorification of Christ at the Cross; even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, The Word was both lifted up, raised up, (on a stauros-post) exalted, and then taken up, (into heaven in a cloud). The other two instances of Dan.11:31 and Dan.12:11 which substitute the word "cuwr" ("beheaded" or "cut away") concern the Saints: And the Saints are the sons and children of the people of Daniel.

 

Two issues are presented with your reply.  

1. Context

Dan 11:31  And shall take away the daily sacrifice

It is widely understood this is referring to the time when (in June BC 167) the Mosaic sacrifices were forbidden by Antiochus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/167_BC  & http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Inter3.htm  when he exerted his will upon the Jews in Jerusalem. They were re-instituted later in Dan 11:33, until the Roman domination as previously stated they finally caused their offerings to cease in AD70.  

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away"

Also see Dan 12:9.  Here "daily" again refers to the Mosaic order of daily offerings, which was "taken away" in the scattering of the nation of Israel in AD 70 by Rome.

This priestly system needed to be removed in order for another system to be established, one that would set up an abomination which makes desolate.

Both of these passages are speaking to a time when the physical practice of sacrifice would be removed from Israel.  

Its really important we understand this primary lesson first.

2. Lifted up or cease to exist

Who is the "he

Quote from: Insight on Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 23:42:51
Two issues are presented with your reply.  

1. Context

Dan 11:31  And shall take away the daily sacrifice

It is widely understood this is referring to the time when (in June BC 167) the Mosaic sacrifices were forbidden by Antiochus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/167_BC  & http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Inter3.htm  when he exerted his will upon the Jews in Jerusalem. They were re-instituted later in Dan 11:33, until the Roman domination as previously stated they finally caused their offerings to cease in AD70.  

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away"

Also see Dan 12:9.  Here "daily" again refers to the Mosaic order of daily offerings, which was "taken away" in the scattering of the nation of Israel in AD 70 by Rome.

This priestly system needed to be removed in order for another system to be established, one that would set up an abomination which makes desolate.

Both of these passages are speaking to a time when the physical practice of sacrifice would be removed from Israel.  

Its really important we understand this primary lesson first.

2. Lifted up or cease to exist

Who is the "he

Dan 8:11

Who is the "he

Quote from: daq on Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 00:30:15
There is no need for me to argue the FACT that the word "sacrifice" is nowhere to be found in the texts which you have quoted. It was simply added by the KJV, (to start with) and the other later English translations and versions have followed suit.

I agree totally with you on the above.  Maybe you should ask why they decided to place the word sacrifice here? Do you believe sacrifice is implied?

The burnt offering? 

What else happened daily?

Shane

The triumphal Arch of Titus in Rome commemorates the defeat of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem. This seven-armed candelabrum is one of the spoils of victory.

Quote from: Insight on Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 05:34:18

Quote from: daq on Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 00:30:15
There is no need for me to argue the FACT that the word "sacrifice" is nowhere to be found in the texts which you have quoted. It was simply added by the KJV, (to start with) and the other later English translations and versions have followed suit.

I agree totally with you on the above.  Maybe you should ask why they decided to place the word sacrifice here? Do you believe sacrifice is implied?

The burnt offering? 

What else happened daily?

Shane

Daq,

Is an answer coming

Quote from: Insight on Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 23:43:51

Quote from: Insight on Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 05:34:18

Quote from: daq on Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 00:30:15
There is no need for me to argue the FACT that the word "sacrifice" is nowhere to be found in the texts which you have quoted. It was simply added by the KJV, (to start with) and the other later English translations and versions have followed suit.

I agree totally with you on the above.  Maybe you should ask why they decided to place the word sacrifice here? Do you believe sacrifice is implied?

The burnt offering?  

What else happened daily?

Shane

Daq,

Is an answer coming

Hi Shane
Not sure if you disagree or if you simply have not fully grasped what was said on the previous page but the question was already answered in Replies #1, #2, & #5. The word is Tamiyd which means continual-perpetual. It does not mean "daily" nor is it translated that way anywhere else as far as I know, (and certainly not "sacrifice" which never should have been added because it is simply an assumption on the part of the translators). The Tamiyd is all of the continual holy things including even praying without ceasing. In the case of Daniel I perceive the Tamiyd as specifically meaning the (shew)BREAD(of Life) which is Yeshua the Word.

1) The tamiyd-continual shewbread, (shadow-typology of Christ).
2) The tamiyd-continual oil (Spirit) burning seven lamp menorah.
3) The breastplate of judgement tamiyd-continually upon the heart.
4) The mitsnepheth-mitre tamiyd-continually upon the forehead.
5) The tamiyd-continual [twice daily] sacrifice.

Here is another interesting place where Tamiyd is found:

1 Kings 10:8-10 KJV
8.  Happy are thy men, happy are these thy servants, which stand continually (tamiyd) before thee, and that hear thy wisdom.
9.  Blessed be the Lord thy God, which delighted in thee, to set thee on the throne of Israel: because the Lord loved Israel for ever, therefore made he thee king, to do judgment and justice.
10.  And she gave the king an hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen of Sheba gave to king Solomon.

Matthew 12:42 KJV
42.  The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Solomon built the Temple and was shadow-typology of Christ.
Who stands continually before the 'Adoni of all the earth? (Zec.4:14, Rev.11:4).
The point being that Tamiyd is not "daily sacrifice" in Daniel.

PS  ~
As for the appointed times of "famine" beginning at the Cross this is what is shown by Amos 8 because it most definately was fulfilled firstly and foremost on that great day of atonement:  

Quote from: daq on Sat Mar 19, 2011 - 07:06:14

In that night, Friday 14th Nisan, Yeshua was betrayed and arrested.
The next morning, still Friday 14th Nisan, Yeshua was tried and crucified at 9AM

6:00 AM - First Hour
9:00 AM - Third Hour
12:00 Noon - Sixth Hour
3:00 PM - Ninth Hour
6:00 PM - Last Hour

Mark 15:25-33 KJV
25. And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26. And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27. And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29. And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30. Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Amos 8:9-12
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith 'Adonay YHWH, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10. And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11.  Behold, the days come, saith 'Adonay YHWH, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of YHWH:
12.  And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the Word of YHWH, and shall not find it.

Re: Good Thursday
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 06:06:14 AM »

While you spend considerable time on a single word תמיד tamiyd we are left to guess your understanding of Dan 8:11. Conveniently you place the sacrifce fifth on your list the continual daily sacrifice.

Let's keep this very simple Daq shall we?

Do you believe the Romans in AD 70 took away the following:

Quote
1) The tamiyd-continual shewbread, (shadow-typology of Christ).
2) The tamiyd-continual oil (Spirit) burning seven lamp menorah.
3) The breastplate of judgement tamiyd-continually upon the heart.
4) The mitsnepheth-mitre tamiyd-continually upon the forehead.
5) The tamiyd-continual [twice daily] sacrifice.

Yes or no will suffice

Shane