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Heb 12:5-11

5 And ye have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, neither faint when thou art rebuked of him.
6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth: and he scourgeth every son that he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God offered himself unto you as unto sons: for what son is it whom the father chasteneth not?
8 If therefore ye be without correction, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Moreover we have had the fathers of our bodies which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: should we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits, that we might live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure, but he chastened us for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastising for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: but afterward, it bringeth the quiet fruit of righteousness, unto them which are thereby exercised.
GENEVA

Rev 3:19

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and amend.
GENEVA



We know from the Gospel of John that God loves everyone because He sent His Son for the world. So what is the difference between God's rebuke to the unsaved versus the saved? Since God  is chastening to get acceptable behavior to the unsaved He is doing it for them to accept Jesus. To the saved He chastens to get them to conduct themselves as children of God. To put it in other words to the unsaved He says accept Jesus. God cannot accept anything other than perfect behavior and that only happens when the sinner accepts Jesus' sacrifice to cover their sins. To the saved He says change a certain behavior.


How does this sound in Bible talk. To the unsaved God says:


Rom 10:9

9 For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
GENEVA

To the saved God says:

Rev 2:14-16

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that maintain the doctrine of Balaam, which taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, that they should eat of things sacrificed unto idols, and commit fornication.

15 Even so hast thou them that maintain the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

16 Repent thyself, or else I will come unto thee shortly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
GENEVA



If God says repent of  (a certain sin) He is talking to a saved person. If he says accept Jesus He is talking to an unsaved person. God is not going to give anyone the idea that if they can quit doing a certain behavior that they are good enough to deserve heaven on their own works.

Acts 8:20-23
20 Then said Peter unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou thinkest that the gift of God may be obtained with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor fellowship in this business: for thine heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, that if it be possible, the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I see that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
GENEVA


Notice that Peter in verse 22 did not say repent and accept Jesus as your savior. If blood has to be shed for the forgiveness of sin and if Simon Magnus was not already saved,  then the only way that Simon's sin could be forgiven was to accept Jesus. Since Peter indicates that Simon could be forgiven by repenting and praying God for forgiveness for that sin, then he (Simon) must already have received Jesus as his savior.

Simon Magus was a saved man.

Quote from: xheathen on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 08:52:25
Acts 8:20-23
20 Then said Peter unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou thinkest that the gift of God may be obtained with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor fellowship in this business: for thine heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, that if it be possible, the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I see that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
GENEVA


Notice that Peter in verse 22 did not say repent and accept Jesus as your savior. If blood has to be shed for the forgiveness of sin and if Simon Magnus was not already saved,  then the only way that Simon's sin could be forgiven was to accept Jesus. Since Peter indicates that Simon could be forgiven by repenting and praying God for forgiveness for that sin, then he (Simon) must already have received Jesus as his savior.

Simon Magus was a saved man.

Lets look at this for one more verse and in an easier translation to read other than the King James OK?

Ac 8:20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 
Ac 8:21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
Ac 8:22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Ac 8:23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.

Quote from: JohnDB on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 09:42:44

Quote from: xheathen on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 08:52:25
Acts 8:20-23
20 Then said Peter unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou thinkest that the gift of God may be obtained with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor fellowship in this business: for thine heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, that if it be possible, the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I see that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
GENEVA


Notice that Peter in verse 22 did not say repent and accept Jesus as your savior. If blood has to be shed for the forgiveness of sin and if Simon Magnus was not already saved,  then the only way that Simon's sin could be forgiven was to accept Jesus. Since Peter indicates that Simon could be forgiven by repenting and praying God for forgiveness for that sin, then he (Simon) must already have received Jesus as his savior.

Simon Magus was a saved man.

Lets look at this for one more verse and in an easier translation to read other than the King James OK?

Ac 8:20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 
Ac 8:21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
Ac 8:22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Ac 8:23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.

Quote from: xheathen on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 12:44:04

Quote from: JohnDB on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 09:42:44

Quote from: xheathen on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 08:52:25
Acts 8:20-23
20 Then said Peter unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou thinkest that the gift of God may be obtained with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor fellowship in this business: for thine heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, that if it be possible, the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I see that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
GENEVA


Notice that Peter in verse 22 did not say repent and accept Jesus as your savior. If blood has to be shed for the forgiveness of sin and if Simon Magnus was not already saved,  then the only way that Simon's sin could be forgiven was to accept Jesus. Since Peter indicates that Simon could be forgiven by repenting and praying God for forgiveness for that sin, then he (Simon) must already have received Jesus as his savior.

Simon Magus was a saved man.

Lets look at this for one more verse and in an easier translation to read other than the King James OK?

Ac 8:20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 
Ac 8:21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
Ac 8:22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Ac 8:23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.

Quote from: JohnDB on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 13:23:42

I can say you definitely need a "do over" with your knowledge of God and what salvation is really all about.

It might be as you say. I do know that a request for intercessory prayer does not imply lack of relationship.

Quote from: xheathen on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 17:46:40

Quote from: JohnDB on Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 13:23:42

I can say you definitely need a "do over" with your knowledge of God and what salvation is really all about.

It might be as you say. I do know that a request for intercessory prayer does not imply lack of relationship.

In this instance of Simon Magnus...it really does...as it does in most instances when you think that God will not hear you because you aren't a child of his.

So we cant agree on the question of intercessory prayer in this case. You said that I need a "do over" with my knowledge of God and what salvation is all about. In relation to the question of Simon M. what do I need to know?

Lets start with this section of scripture in Isaiah.

Isa 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Simon's heart and soul were so far away from Jesus and God that a common expression from that era would be firmly in place. "What do I have to do with you?" (being said by God to Simon)

IOW Where in reality God knew who Simon Magnus was Simon didn't know who and what God was really all about.

Lets put it this way with an analogy.

Say for example I had a personal relationship with a billionaire named J. R. Simplot. (actually he lived in the same town as I for many years) He was filthy rich and full of all kinds of political clout all over the world.
And I was his checker buddy. (one of his few vices was to play checkers in the back of a greasy spoon) We played checkers together regularly and got to know each other on a personal level from that game...so much so that I got to drive his 1967 Cadillac that he bought for his wife and had bar b ques at his house...to watch the sports games on the television together.

He J.R. one day finds out that I am in trouble of some kind...and even though I don't ask or even tell him about it, he finds out and fixes my trouble with some money and some political pull that he has.
And where you may also know of J.R. Simplot and know he is wealthy and likes checkers...you still don't know him on a personal level...and so you going to him for some kind of help with some kind of trouble you are in isn't going to work for you.

Such was the exact same case with Simon Magnus. Sure Jesus granted power and authority over "demons" and illnesses and various ailments but that wasn't the focus at all of what Peter was doing or what Jesus was all about. That one talent/authority was to fulfill a secondary prophesy surrounding the Messiah and his Kingdom...as a sign and wonder that He had actually come and visited. Not the primary reason at all.

The "exorcisms" that Simon Magnus had been doing were an ongoing fraud that he had been perpetrating. And it was known to most of the educated people what was going on. Simon, as the other Exorcists would do, would give the "aflicted" person a potion which in all reality was a strong hallucinogen. when they seen the demons Simon would tell the demons to get outta there and the person would be "cured". But of course most all of these demons were actually a mental disorder of some kind such as bipolar or schitzophrenia or epilepsy or any one of the other known mental disorders that are known of today and so no one was ever permanently cured and the demon would need to be exorcised again.

Simon recognized that what the Apostles were doing was vastly different than what he was doing...the people that the apostles exorcise the "demon" from actually stayed cured...and were functional human beings once again.  And the Apostles didn't charge money at all.

All Simon wanted was the authority/ability to cure people to which he could become one of the most respected healers of demons. Who and what Jesus was really all about Simon didn't know and didn't care...he wanted the power  without knowing the personality or good stuff about Jesus himself.   

And that is exactly why in this instance the intercessory prayer wasn't even going to work.  This guy was a kingdom enemy and not a real citizen.


And today the same thing is true as it was back then. They want Jesus to be some kind of Santa Clause for their needs and wants but have never really repented of their sinful lives and tried to actually get to know the person of who Jesus really is...Therefore...many make noises like they are Christians but in all reality aren't saved at all.

Quote from: JohnDB on Sun Aug 21, 2011 - 19:52:42
Lets start with this section of scripture in Isaiah.

Isa 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

Simon's heart and soul were so far away from Jesus and God that a common expression from that era would be firmly in place. "What do I have to do with you?" (being said by God to Simon)

IOW Where in reality God knew who Simon Magnus was Simon didn't know who and what God was really all about.

Lets put it this way with an analogy.

Say for example I had a personal relationship with a billionaire named J. R. Simplot. (actually he lived in the same town as I for many years) He was filthy rich and full of all kinds of political clout all over the world.
And I was his checker buddy. (one of his few vices was to play checkers in the back of a greasy spoon) We played checkers together regularly and got to know each other on a personal level from that game...so much so that I got to drive his 1967 Cadillac that he bought for his wife and had bar b ques at his house...to watch the sports games on the television together.

He J.R. one day finds out that I am in trouble of some kind...and even though I don't ask or even tell him about it, he finds out and fixes my trouble with some money and some political pull that he has.
And where you may also know of J.R. Simplot and know he is wealthy and likes checkers...you still don't know him on a personal level...and so you going to him for some kind of help with some kind of trouble you are in isn't going to work for you.

Such was the exact same case with Simon Magnus. Sure Jesus granted power and authority over "demons" and illnesses and various ailments but that wasn't the focus at all of what Peter was doing or what Jesus was all about. That one talent/authority was to fulfill a secondary prophesy surrounding the Messiah and his Kingdom...as a sign and wonder that He had actually come and visited. Not the primary reason at all.

The "exorcisms" that Simon Magnus had been doing were an ongoing fraud that he had been perpetrating. And it was known to most of the educated people what was going on. Simon, as the other Exorcists would do, would give the "aflicted" person a potion which in all reality was a strong hallucinogen. when they seen the demons Simon would tell the demons to get outta there and the person would be "cured". But of course most all of these demons were actually a mental disorder of some kind such as bipolar or schitzophrenia or epilepsy or any one of the other known mental disorders that are known of today and so no one was ever permanently cured and the demon would need to be exorcised again.

Simon recognized that what the Apostles were doing was vastly different than what he was doing...the people that the apostles exorcise the "demon" from actually stayed cured...and were functional human beings once again.  And the Apostles didn't charge money at all.

All Simon wanted was the authority/ability to cure people to which he could become one of the most respected healers of demons. Who and what Jesus was really all about Simon didn't know and didn't care...he wanted the power  without knowing the personality or good stuff about Jesus himself.  

And that is exactly why in this instance the intercessory prayer wasn't even going to work.  This guy was a kingdom enemy and not a real citizen.


And today the same thing is true as it was back then. They want Jesus to be some kind of Santa Clause for their needs and wants but have never really repented of their sinful lives and tried to actually get to know the person of who Jesus really is...Therefore...many make noises like they are Christians but in all reality aren't saved at all.

I still don't see it.

Here is the picture that you paint.

Peter- leading apostle and spirit filled man. Knows more about salvation than possibly any other man
          ever.

Simon M.- enemy of God. Has just made a mockery of God's offer of salvation.

Peter confronts him with with a offer of possible forgiveness of sin that bypasses the cross.

I see something wrong.

Peter did not make any such offer that bypasses the cross. He called for repentance, which involves the cross.

Any forgiveness of sin that has ever happened is only satisfied ultimately by the cross.  So, in that sense, forgiveness of sin can never bypass the cross.

With that said, I have no reason to say that Simon Magnus wasn't a "saved" Christian when this incident occurred and that his acceptance of Christ before this wasn't genuine.

The doctrine of OSAS doesn't force me into assuming that he was a fake Christian, since even Christians do go astray and get their priorities out of whack.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 10:59:22
Peter did not make any such offer that bypasses the cross. He called for repentance, which involves the cross.

I agree. However; the discussion was "if

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 14:12:35
To add to the evidence:  If Simon was repenting and accepting Jesus for the first time then Peter would not have said "perhaps

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 15:45:24

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 14:12:35
To add to the evidence:  If Simon was repenting and accepting Jesus for the first time then Peter would not have said "perhaps

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 17:36:29If we do not conduct ourselves as children of God and do not repent those sins are burnt off when we pass through the fire at death.

Sounds a bit like the purgatory idea.

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 17:36:29

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 15:45:24

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 14:12:35
To add to the evidence:  If Simon was repenting and accepting Jesus for the first time then Peter would not have said "perhaps

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 18:22:08

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 17:36:29

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 15:45:24

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 14:12:35
To add to the evidence:  If Simon was repenting and accepting Jesus for the first time then Peter would not have said "perhaps

Let's get it right here and not build on a base of error. Scripture only speaks of our works being sent through a test of fire...

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.