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Quote from: RichardBurger on Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 06:59:45
No one is questioning that the Holy Spirit was fell on the Jews when they heard Peter preach. But Peter only preached that Jesus was the Jew's Messiah and King.

The difference between Peter's preaching and Paul's is the message they preached. No where in the book of Acts did Peter preach salvation by the shed blood on the cross. The cross was something for the Jews to repent of.

I read in Acts and in Peter's epistle where he preaches the cross.

QuoteOnly Paul's gospel teaches that, in this age, a person can only be saved by faith, trust, confidence that the shed blood on the cross pays for the sins of the world, especially for those that believe it does.

That is false. Paul has no gospel. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and both Paul and Peter preached it entirely and well.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 06:59:45

Only Paul's gospel teaches that, in this age, a person can only be saved by faith, trust, confidence that the shed blood on the cross pays for the sins of the world, especially for those that believe it does.

I don't see the difference; all things pointed to Christ and His blood to be shed; even Abel's offering of the firstlings of his flock.

Leviticus 17:11  . . . it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
 
Hebrews 9:22  . . . without shedding of blood is no remission.
 
Was being saved by faith, trust, confidence in that shed blood different than Abraham that believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness? He did know also that there was to be the sacrifice of blood in Genesis 22:8.  And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb (Who did the lamb represent?) for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

The thing Paul brought forth that was to fulfill the word of God in Colossians 1:25-28, and then show us even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 

Paul wanted to present us perfect in Christ and that was through the word to grow from the acceptable and the good, unto the very perfect will of God.

My thoughts.

Quote from: larry2 on Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 07:41:13

Quote from: RichardBurger on Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 06:59:45

Only Paul's gospel teaches that, in this age, a person can only be saved by faith, trust, confidence that the shed blood on the cross pays for the sins of the world, especially for those that believe it does.

I don't see the difference; all things pointed to Christ and His blood to be shed; even Abel's offering of the firstlings of his flock.

Leviticus 17:11  . . . it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
 
Hebrews 9:22  . . . without shedding of blood is no remission.
 
Was being saved by faith, trust, confidence in that shed blood different than Abraham that believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness? He did know also that there was to be the sacrifice of blood in Genesis 22:8.  And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb (Who did the lamb represent?) for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

The thing Paul brought forth that was to fulfill the word of God in Colossians 1:25-28, and then show us even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 

Paul wanted to present us perfect in Christ and that was through the word to grow from the acceptable and the good, unto the very perfect will of God.

My thoughts.

Again I say that no where in the book of Acts do we find Peter teaching that the Law of Moses has been reciended, that all people are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. If anyone thinks otherwise then show the scriptures.

What I see Peter teaching the Jews is that they, the Jews, had crucified their Messiah and King and they they must repent of it and accept Jesus as their Messiah and King. Stephens said the same thing to the Jews. No where do they say we are saved by the shed blood. Their efforts were towards getting the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and king so that Jesus would return and set up the promised kingdom. But their efforts were not enough so God turned to the Gentiles with a gospel of grace that was hidden in God.

As for the Jews being filled with the Holy Spirit, that is in fulfillment of what God told them in the O.T. But God did not tell the Jews He was going to do it to the Gentile too. After all, Peter did not know it until God sent him a message in a vision.

As long as a person can not see that the gospel of Grace given to Paul was NOT the same gospel as the Kingdom at hand taught by Jesus and the 12 ""for"" the Jews. They will continue believing and trusting in a message that is a blend of what Jesus taught """ the Jews "" and Paul's gospel of grace for this age of grace and in my honest opinion they will not be saved.

Jesus gave a HIDDEN IN GOD gospel of grace to Paul and if a person does not place ALL their, belief, faith, trust, and confidence in that gospel, (that the blood of Jesus shed on the cross pays for ALL their sins) they will not be saved. In other words if a person does not trust that the shed blood pays for his/her sins then they will not be saved. But modern religious Christianty does not believe Paul when he said the message given to him by Jesus was hidden in God. They refuse to believe it even though it is written in the scriptures. They come up with assumptions, rationalizations, and interpetations that subvert the word of God.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 10:08:55

Again I say that no where in the book of Acts do we find Peter teaching that the Law of Moses has been reciended, that all people are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. If anyone thinks otherwise then show the scriptures.

The law is still in effect, and is profitable when exercised properly to show a person cannot be saved by following the law. Oh I have kept the law; no you didn't.

Peter preached on things concerning the kingdom, not those things relating to the Church, for Peter and his crew didn't even realize us Gentiles were going to be in Christ.

Maybe it does not come across in the way I'm saying it, but no one has ever been saved by keeping the law. The judgment for not believing God was death, such as with Aaron and Moses, but do you think they are not saved?

Quote from: larry2 on Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 12:57:41

Quote from: RichardBurger on Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 10:08:55

Again I say that no where in the book of Acts do we find Peter teaching that the Law of Moses has been reciended, that all people are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. If anyone thinks otherwise then show the scriptures.

The law is still in effect, and is profitable when exercised properly to show a person cannot be saved by following the law. Oh I have kept the law; no you didn't.

Peter preached on things concerning the kingdom, not those things relating to the Church, for Peter and his crew didn't even realize us Gentiles were going to be in Christ.

Maybe it does not come across in the way I'm saying it, but no one has ever been saved by keeping the law. The judgment for not believing God was death, such as with Aaron and Moses, but do you think they are not saved?

Your saying the Law of Moses is still in effect is the same as saying we must keep it. Today we are under grace. You can't mix law with grace.

Paul says we are no longer under the Law, we are dead to it and I believe him?

Paul said that keeping the Law of Moses did not make anyone righteous before God and it is true. --- However, when a Jew ""believing God"" wanted him to do the works of the law his ""belief, faith"" in what God told him to do did make him righteous before God. Not that he could keep the law but that he believed God when He said to keep it. The act of ""believing God"" has always been accounted as righteousness before God. Believing God brought about accounted righteousness for Abraham, Moses, David, etc.

It was Eve that turned from believing God to believing Satan over God. True sin has always been "to not believe God".

The problem with the Jews, when Jesus came, was that the Jews thought that it was their efforts to keep the Law of Moses that saved them. Saying it another way, they thought that righteousness came when they kept the Law (which they couldn't do). In this age of grace many in religion teach that it is keeping rules and law that saves people and it doesn't. We can only be saved by believing God's words; His plan of salvation for this age of grace.

Today, under grace, we are to ""believe God"" who sent Paul with the "hidden in God" message of grace. We are to believe that message. A corrupted message of grace by blending the works of Law keeping into it will not save anyone.

R.B....Are you saying then, that grace is unconditional?

Would you explain then Galatians 3:27-29 since this is the "mystery hidden in Paul's gospel" as you say?
I note here that the "promise" of verse 29 supersedes both Jew and Gentile.
But, both must first be baptized "into Christ" (v. 27).

Does this "baptism" Paul speaks have anything to do with one becoming a "new creature in Christ"
as Paul writes to the church at Corinth? (2 Cor. 5:16-21).

I note here, Paul says: "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature.
Wouldn't "any man" be the flesh of Jew or Gentile?
Paul does say that "we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Is this the "mystery" of which you speak?

How would "any man" know this without being informed?

You say R.B., "Again I say that no where in the book of Acts do we find Peter teaching that the Law of Moses has been rescinded, that all people are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. If anyone thinks otherwise then show the scriptures."

Wasn't Saul of Tarsus a Jew?
We know he was...yet, the Jewish preacher, Ananias, was sent to him with this message:
"And now, why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" (Acts 22:16).

Question: where in the Law of Moses does it speak of baptism "washing away sins"?
Since Jesus told Saul in Acts 9:6 that " it would be told to him what he MUST do in the city."
You might show me where Ananias told this Jew to keep the Law of Moses.

If one is baptized "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) as Peter said to the men at Pentecost,
Ananias is informing Saul of Tarsus, a Jew, the same plan of salvation that Peter spoke by inspiration,
and he, as the apostle Paul delivered to the Gentiles...
"Know you not, that so many of US (Paul includes himself) as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
(Romans 3:6)......

The Law of Moses was "rescinded" at the cross!
There was a New Covenant enacted between God and His Christ at Calvary! (Heb. 9:16).

Quote from: pointmade on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:07:03
R.B....Are you saying then, that grace is unconditional?

Would you explain then Galatians 3:27-29 since this is the "mystery hidden in Paul's gospel" as you say?
I note here that the "promise" of verse 29 supersedes both Jew and Gentile.
But, both must first be baptized "into Christ" (v. 27).

Does this "baptism" Paul speaks have anything to do with one becoming a "new creature in Christ"
as Paul writes to the church at Corinth? (2 Cor. 5:16-21).

I note here, Paul says: "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature.
Wouldn't "any man" be the flesh of Jew or Gentile?
Paul does say that "we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Is this the "mystery" of which you speak?

How would "any man" know this without being informed?

You say R.B., "Again I say that no where in the book of Acts do we find Peter teaching that the Law of Moses has been rescinded, that all people are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. If anyone thinks otherwise then show the scriptures."

Wasn't Saul of Tarsus a Jew?
We know he was...yet, the Jewish preacher, Ananias, was sent to him with this message:
"And now, why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" (Acts 22:16).

Question: where in the Law of Moses does it speak of baptism "washing away sins"?
Since Jesus told Saul in Acts 9:6 that " it would be told to him what he MUST do in the city."
You might show me where Ananias told this Jew to keep the Law of Moses.

If one is baptized "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) as Peter said to the men at Pentecost,
Ananias is informing Saul of Tarsus, a Jew, the same plan of salvation that Peter spoke by inspiration,
and he, as the apostle Paul delivered to the Gentiles...
"Know you not, that so many of US (Paul includes himself) as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
(Romans 3:6)......

The Law of Moses was "rescinded" at the cross!
There was a New Covenant enacted between God and His Christ at Calvary! (Heb. 9:16).

Your whole reply is an effort to show that water baptism is necessay for salvation. Believe it if you wish but as for me I believe salvation is completely the work of God and it is the Holy Spirit (God) that baptizes us into Christ today.

What I see in the book of Acts is a transition from law to grace. As I said, no where in the book of Acts do we see Peter preaching the cross for salvation. All I see Peter and Stephen doing is trying to convince the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah and King. To Peter the cross was something for the Jews to repent of, but for those under grace the cross is the power of God to save those that believe in His shed blood on the cross. -- But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

What I am trying to get others to see is that Peter and the 11 were all trying to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King. No where do we find Peter and the 11 teachinmg that people are no longer under the Law and are sved by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. If you can find Peter preaching Paul's gospel that was hidden in God and revealed to Paul by Jesus then show it. Paul said that he was the first to be saved under the gospel of grace. Do you believe him?

Quote from: pointmade on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:07:03
The Law of Moses was "rescinded" at the cross!
There was a New Covenant enacted between God and His Christ at Calvary! (Heb. 9:16).

No the Law of Moses was not rescinded at the cross.  Only the debt incurred by not keeping the Law of Moses was rescinded at the cross.  Jesus paid that debt for once for all who would accept it.  It is not the Law but [spiritual] death that was rescinded. The old covenant was replaced by a better one, the new covenant. What was the old covenant?  It was more than just a set of rules and regulations; it was an agreement between God and man. It was an "if you do, then I will do" agreement. But Isreal demonstrated that they couldn't do.  Thus the reason for the new covenant. But the rules and regulation were not necessarily set aside.  Some were but not all.  Some, if anything, were made even more stringent.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
As I said, no where in the book of Acts do we see Peter preaching the cross for salvation.

Act 10:34  And opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Act 10:35  but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him.
Act 10:36  "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--
Act 10:37  you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
Act 10:38  "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him.
Act 10:39  "And we are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And they also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 10:40  "God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible,
Act 10:41  not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us, who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
Act 10:42  "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43  "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

That is the preaching of the cross for salvation in its simplest form.

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

I agree Jimmy, grace was certainly not non-existent in the Old Testament. And no one was EVER saved by keeping the law.

Great reply Jimmy!
R.B. has a problem with Peter's message at Pentecost.
Peter did say that the "promise was unto you and to your children and to ALL that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

He "calls" man through the preaching of the Gospel. (Ma. 28:18-20).
You say: "Only the debt incurred by not keeping the Law of Moses was rescinded at the cross.  Jesus paid that debt for once for all who would accept it.

What is the difference between the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant?
Or, am I not understanding Hebrews 9:11-22?
If the New Testament did not go into effect at His death when did it (v.17)?

Basically the Law of Moses was the complete set of rules and regulations set down by God.  The Old Covenant was the agreement God established with man concerning his, i.e., man, obeying those rules and regulations.  In fact I believe that covenant, if any could keep it, would still be honored by God.  But of course it has been shown that only one man, Jesus, could actually do that.  I think that the Old Covenant was not so much done away with as it was superceded by the New Covenant.  Fundamentally the differences between the two have to do with the obligation for failure to adhere to the rules and regulations that were set forth and are still appropriate. 

Peter says that disobeying those rules is lawlessness and lawlessness is sin.  Now not all the rules and regulations remain in effect, since some have been permanently replaced, such as those associated with the temple, sacrifices etc.  But the ones concerning basic morality in dealing with each other and with God remain.  Murder now is just as much a violation of the Law as it ever was.  We have not been freed from that requirement.  If we violate it we have incurred a debt.  The difference is who pays the debt. We will either pay it ourselves with our eternal damnation or we can accept Jesus' payment in our stead.

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:58:29

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
As I said, no where in the book of Acts do we see Peter preaching the cross for salvation.

Act 10:34  And opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Act 10:35  but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him.
Act 10:36  "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--
Act 10:37  you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
Act 10:38  "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him.
Act 10:39  "And we are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And they also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 10:40  "God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible,
Act 10:41  not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us, who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
Act 10:42  "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43  "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

That is the preaching of the cross for salvation in its simplest form.

No it isn't. There is no mention of sins being paid for on the cross. All I see is that Peter is still preaching that Jesus is the promised Messiah and King.

Do you REALLY believe the scriptures? Then what do you see in these?

1 Timothy 1:15-17
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

Verse 16: "that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

And for those preaching laws and regulation how do you read Paul; when he said the following?

1 Corinthians 6:12
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

To the religious teaching that you must not sin it is read "I will not be brought under the power of any sins by my efforts to not sin."

I read it that all my sins have been paid for on the cross and I will not be brought under the power of those sins because they are paid for. To feel that they are not paid for is to be brought under the power of those sins.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

What in the world do you think the Messiah is?

Peter had just preached Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and then declared the following.

Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That, my friend, is salvation in, by and through the sacrifice of Jesus. 

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:46:06

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

Peter and the 11 taught that the cross was something for the Jews to repent of. They were to repent of killing their Messiah and King and accept Him as their promised Messaih and King. I do not see them teaching the gospel of grace.

According to the parable about the baren fig tree the Apostles had about 40 year to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so He could return and set up their promised kingdom. What Peter and the 11 were doing is preaching the same gospel Jesus preached of the "kingdom at Hand". They were not able to do it so God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:00:31

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:46:06

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

Peter and the 11 taught that the cross was something for the Jews to repent of. They were to repent of killing their Messiah and King and accept Him as their promised Messaih and King. I do not see them teaching the gospel of grace.

According to the parable about the baren fig tree the Apostles had about 40 year to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so He could return and set up their promised kingdom. What Peter and the 11 were doing is preaching the same gospel Jesus preached of the "kingdom at Hand". They were not able to do it so God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

Then you have misapprehended the scriptures and fallen into someone's false teaching.

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:56:39

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

What in the world do you think the Messiah is?

Peter had just preached Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and then declared the following.

Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That, my friend, is salvation in, by and through the sacrifice of Jesus.  

If you read your verse IN CONTEXT you will see that Peter's answer was to the question by those whom were convicted of having Jesus killed. They, the Jews, were to repent of having Jesus killed and be water baptised (a cleansing ritual under the law) in His name.

I am sorry, but I don't see Acts 2:38 as being a formula on how to be saved. But it was a requirement for the Jews who had Jesus killed.

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:56:39

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

What in the world do you think the Messiah is?

Peter had just preached Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and then declared the following.

Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That, my friend, is salvation in, by and through the sacrifice of Jesus. 

Amen! 

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:40:54

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:58:29

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
As I said, no where in the book of Acts do we see Peter preaching the cross for salvation.

Act 10:34  And opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Act 10:35  but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him.
Act 10:36  "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--
Act 10:37  you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
Act 10:38  "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him.
Act 10:39  "And we are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And they also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 10:40  "God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible,
Act 10:41  not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us, who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
Act 10:42  "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43  "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

That is the preaching of the cross for salvation in its simplest form.

No it isn't. There is no mention of sins being paid for on the cross. All I see is that Peter is still preaching that Jesus is the promised Messiah and King.

Do you REALLY believe the scriptures? Then what do you see in these?

1 Timothy 1:15-17
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

Verse 16: "that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:08:09

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:56:39

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

What in the world do you think the Messiah is?

Peter had just preached Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and then declared the following.

Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That, my friend, is salvation in, by and through the sacrifice of Jesus.  

If you read your verse IN CONTEXT you will see that Peter's answer was to the question by those whom were convicted of having Jesus killed. They, the Jews, were to repent of having Jesus killed and be water baptised (a cleansing ritual under the law) in His name.

I am sorry, but I don't see Acts 2:38 as being a formula on how to be saved. But it was a requirement for the Jews who had Jesus killed.

A requirement for what?  To accomplish what?

What more can you have than forgiveness of sin and the indwelling Holy Spirit?  Can one have all that and not be saved?  I don't think so. If you think otherwise, tell us, precisely what more do you have?

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:00:31

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:46:06

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

Peter and the 11 taught that the cross was something for the Jews to repent of. They were to repent of killing their Messiah and King and accept Him as their promised Messaih and King. I do not see them teaching the gospel of grace.

According to the parable about the baren fig tree the Apostles had about 40 year to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so He could return and set up their promised kingdom. What Peter and the 11 were doing is preaching the same gospel Jesus preached of the "kingdom at Hand". They were not able to do it so God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

The kingdom at hand is the church.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:06:50

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:00:31

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:46:06

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

Peter and the 11 taught that the cross was something for the Jews to repent of. They were to repent of killing their Messiah and King and accept Him as their promised Messaih and King. I do not see them teaching the gospel of grace.

According to the parable about the baren fig tree the Apostles had about 40 year to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so He could return and set up their promised kingdom. What Peter and the 11 were doing is preaching the same gospel Jesus preached of the "kingdom at Hand". They were not able to do it so God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

Then you have misapprehended the scriptures and fallen into someone's false teaching.

My teacher is the Holy Spirit. What I believe was not taught to me by man. I read it in the God's word.

Have you ever consided that what you believe is a false gospel put together by men? No I don't guess you will believe that because it is much easier to make that charge against others that will not bend to man's doctrine.

If, as you say, I am teaching man's doctrine, then why are there so many religious people on forums against what I teach?

It is a fact that if you are not being accussed of teaching that men have a license to sin you are not teaching grace. As Paul siad, "All things are lawful to me." In that he said ""all"" then all things are lawful to me.

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:18:22

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:00:31

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:46:06

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

Peter and the 11 taught that the cross was something for the Jews to repent of. They were to repent of killing their Messiah and King and accept Him as their promised Messaih and King. I do not see them teaching the gospel of grace.

According to the parable about the baren fig tree the Apostles had about 40 year to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so He could return and set up their promised kingdom. What Peter and the 11 were doing is preaching the same gospel Jesus preached of the "kingdom at Hand". They were not able to do it so God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

The kingdom at hand is the church.

The "kingdom at Hand" was a covenant promise to the Jews. They were promised a kingdom on this earth in which their Messiah would sit on the throne of David. We, under grace, are not promised a kingdom on this earth.

Under grace we are "members of His body"

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:27:37

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:18:22

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:00:31

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:46:06

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

Peter and the 11 taught that the cross was something for the Jews to repent of. They were to repent of killing their Messiah and King and accept Him as their promised Messaih and King. I do not see them teaching the gospel of grace.

According to the parable about the baren fig tree the Apostles had about 40 year to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so He could return and set up their promised kingdom. What Peter and the 11 were doing is preaching the same gospel Jesus preached of the "kingdom at Hand". They were not able to do it so God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

The kingdom at hand is the church.

The "kingdom at Hand" was a covenant promise to the Jews. They were promised a kingdom on this earth in which their Messiah would sit on the throne of David. We, under grace, are not promised a kingdom on this earth.

Under grace we are "members of His body"

You make the same mistake that the Jews made.

John 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Peter also corrected the idea that the kingdom would be on earth in his first sermon on Pentecost.

Act 2:24  God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Act 2:25  For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
Act 2:26  therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
Act 2:27  For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
Act 2:28  You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'
Act 2:29  "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Act 2:30  Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
Act 2:31  he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32  This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33  Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Act 2:34  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

The kingdom is here; it is now; it is the church; the messiah reigns.

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:20:54

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:06:50

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 10:00:31

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:46:06

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 09:32:10

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:53:03

Quote from: RichardBurger on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 07:41:03
But just as the Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah and King there are people today that can not see that Paul's gospel of grace was a different gospel given to him by Jesus.

But in fact not all the Jews were blind to that fact. That was the point of Peter's sermon with the result being those who believed.  The gospel of grace was not something new.  Salvation has always been by grace through faith.  How else were any of God's people, who lived before the first coming of Jesus, saved?  Certainly not by keeping the Law.

But what did they believe? Was it that the shed blood on the cross pays for sins? Or was it that Jesus is their Messiah and King?

All I see in the book of Acts is Peter and the 11 teaching that Jesus is their Messiah and King. And that is under the Jewish covenant with Israel. No mention of grace.

""""No where"""" in  the book of Acts does Peter and the 11 teach anything other than that Jesus is their promised Messaih and King. If you believe they did then show the scriptures.

These men taught about the crucifixion---they taught the whole enchilada---from the prophets to the cross---all pertinent for the Jew to understand. That is how we approach the Jew today---their history prophetically pointing to Christ their Messiah, and how His sacrifice as the ultimate Lamb was for them. They get the blood thing, as well as the Grace of God....probably appreciating the truth of it more acutely than a Gentile.

Peter and the 11 taught that the cross was something for the Jews to repent of. They were to repent of killing their Messiah and King and accept Him as their promised Messaih and King. I do not see them teaching the gospel of grace.

According to the parable about the baren fig tree the Apostles had about 40 year to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King so He could return and set up their promised kingdom. What Peter and the 11 were doing is preaching the same gospel Jesus preached of the "kingdom at Hand". They were not able to do it so God destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.

Then you have misapprehended the scriptures and fallen into someone's false teaching.

My teacher is the Holy Spirit. What I believe was not taught to me by man. I read it in the God's word.

God places human teachers in our lives for our benefit and we need to avail ourselves of them and their wisdom, too. Self-teaching is dangerous. When we think the Lord is telling us something and it is a lie, we are actually blessed to discover we are in error when we are plugged into a bible-believing church and receive correction there.

QuoteHave you ever consided that what you believe is a false gospel put together by men? No I don't guess you will believe that because it is much easier to make that charge against others that will not bend to man's doctrine.

I am protected from serious error because I am plugged into a great bible believing church and surround myself with godly and wise believers, who love enough to correct me if and when I am wrong. God's plan.

QuoteIf, as you say, I am teaching man's doctrine, then why are there so many religious people on forums against what I teach?

The answer to that is obvious.

QuoteIt is a fact that if you are not being accussed of teaching that men have a license to sin you are not teaching grace. As Paul siad, "All things are lawful to me." In that he said ""all"" then all things are lawful to me.

Is that the underlying message of your points?

QuoteThe difference is who pays the debt. We will either pay it ourselves with our eternal damnation or we can accept Jesus' payment in our stead.

That is in fact the distinct difference between the covenants

If we accept Jesus payment in our stead we are in fact DELIVERED FROM THE CURSE, THE CONSEQUENCES DUE for violating the Law

Which in essence means IN CHRIST we are not under the Law but rather UNDER GRACE


One is only under the Law if one is attempting to pay the dept for one's self

Many Christians do this unwittingly making Christ of no effect in essence they fail to endure in the Faith in having started by the Spirit they have wrenched the surety of their salvation out of Jesus hands and taken it back unto themselves....

....Having an inheritance they do not appreciate the value of they continue to slave away in the field trying to gain the father's approval they have already been given.

In essence they reject God's approval on His terms trying to gain God's approval on their own terms


Now we return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast   

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:42:02

QuoteThe difference is who pays the debt. We will either pay it ourselves with our eternal damnation or we can accept Jesus' payment in our stead.

That is in fact the distinct difference between the covenants

If we accept Jesus payment in our stead we are in fact DELIVERED FROM THE CURSE, THE CONSEQUENCES DUE for violating the Law

Which in essence means IN CHRIST we are not under the Law but rather UNDER GRACE

No that is not the difference in the covenants.  No one was ever saved by the Law. Was Moses saved?  Was he under the Law?  If he was saved was it not by grace? You speak as if no one who lived under the Law was ever saved.

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:59:17

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:42:02

QuoteThe difference is who pays the debt. We will either pay it ourselves with our eternal damnation or we can accept Jesus' payment in our stead.

That is in fact the distinct difference between the covenants

If we accept Jesus payment in our stead we are in fact DELIVERED FROM THE CURSE, THE CONSEQUENCES DUE for violating the Law

Which in essence means IN CHRIST we are not under the Law but rather UNDER GRACE

No that is not the difference in the covenants.  No one was ever saved by the Law. Was Moses saved?  Was he under the Law?  If he was saved was it not by grace? You speak as if no one who lived under the Law was ever saved.

The Law doesn't save nor was it intended to do so, nor can any man fulfill it  

in fact the Law was not even given to correct behavior but rather it was given to prove a point

The question is do believers know or understand the point God was trying to make through the Law?

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:08:12

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:59:17

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:42:02

QuoteThe difference is who pays the debt. We will either pay it ourselves with our eternal damnation or we can accept Jesus' payment in our stead.

That is in fact the distinct difference between the covenants

If we accept Jesus payment in our stead we are in fact DELIVERED FROM THE CURSE, THE CONSEQUENCES DUE for violating the Law

Which in essence means IN CHRIST we are not under the Law but rather UNDER GRACE

No that is not the difference in the covenants.  No one was ever saved by the Law. Was Moses saved?  Was he under the Law?  If he was saved was it not by grace? You speak as if no one who lived under the Law was ever saved.

The Law doesn't save nor was it intended to do so, nor can any man fulfill it  

in fact the Law was not even given to correct behavior but rather it was given to prove a point

The question is do believers know or understand the point God was trying to make through the Law?

Well it seems that you don't.  So please answer my question.  Was Moses saved?  If so how?  By the Law or by Grace?

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:15:45

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:08:12

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:59:17

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:42:02

QuoteThe difference is who pays the debt. We will either pay it ourselves with our eternal damnation or we can accept Jesus' payment in our stead.

That is in fact the distinct difference between the covenants

If we accept Jesus payment in our stead we are in fact DELIVERED FROM THE CURSE, THE CONSEQUENCES DUE for violating the Law

Which in essence means IN CHRIST we are not under the Law but rather UNDER GRACE

No that is not the difference in the covenants.  No one was ever saved by the Law. Was Moses saved?  Was he under the Law?  If he was saved was it not by grace? You speak as if no one who lived under the Law was ever saved.

The Law doesn't save nor was it intended to do so, nor can any man fulfill it  

in fact the Law was not even given to correct behavior but rather it was given to prove a point

The question is do believers know or understand the point God was trying to make through the Law?

Well it seems that you don't.  So please answer my question.  Was Moses saved?  If so how?  By the Law or by Grace?

The Law does not Save

Moses was Saved

Moses was Saved by Grace not fulfilling the law

In that he failed just like you and me and all men

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:17:34

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:15:45

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:08:12

Quote from: Jimmy on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:59:17

Quote from: gospel on Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:42:02

QuoteThe difference is who pays the debt. We will either pay it ourselves with our eternal damnation or we can accept Jesus' payment in our stead.

That is in fact the distinct difference between the covenants

If we accept Jesus payment in our stead we are in fact DELIVERED FROM THE CURSE, THE CONSEQUENCES DUE for violating the Law

Which in essence means IN CHRIST we are not under the Law but rather UNDER GRACE

No that is not the difference in the covenants.  No one was ever saved by the Law. Was Moses saved?  Was he under the Law?  If he was saved was it not by grace? You speak as if no one who lived under the Law was ever saved.

The Law doesn't save nor was it intended to do so, nor can any man fulfill it  

in fact the Law was not even given to correct behavior but rather it was given to prove a point

The question is do believers know or understand the point God was trying to make through the Law?

Well it seems that you don't.  So please answer my question.  Was Moses saved?  If so how?  By the Law or by Grace?

The Law does not Save

Moses was Saved

Moses was Saved by Grace not fulfilling the law

In that he failed just like you and me and all men

So then under the Law there was Grace.  And Moses who lived under the Old Covenant was saved by Grace.  Thank you.  For a minute there I thought you were trying to say that there was no Grace under the Old Covenant.   The very essence of Grace is that Jesus has paid the debt, whether under the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant.