Christian Forums

Quote from: Supplanter on Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 16:47:05

Quote from: nuclear Rabbit on Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 14:59:18
I know you are just being fast and loose with your words when you say it is "a crime."  But one day soon, it may be a crime to speak the truth of the bible on these most important matters pertaining to men/women. 

Its already getting to be almost a punishable by prison to speak out against sodomites.  First its starts with the public schools calling it BULLYING.  And its all within the realm of hate crimes. 

So one day, you will be exactly right.  It will be a crime punishable by law for any man to speak out the truth of God's word about this most important matter. 

So women shouldn't speak the truth of God's word? I fail to see how this is at all important in comparison to sharing the gospel with those who need salvation. If you want a woman who doesn't talk in church then get you one and marry her. Otherwise, let other women's husbands handle them.

This shows all of what I posted. Doesn't look off-topic to me. I simply cited a verse that indicates how this should be handled/treated.

Quote from: nuclear Rabbit on Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 10:56:51
The reasoning presented so far does not appear to line up with what was actually written by the inspired apostle.  

Women are not to teach men because of two reasons:
1.  The priority of creation
2.  The woman was deceived

Adam was first formed, then Eve.  1 Tim 2:13

NOW WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  We've all heard it and read it countless times but maybe the meaning has escaped us.  

After Adam was created, God decided that He wanted to expand the human race instead of there only being one man on the planet.  God said it was not good that the man should be alone.  Gen 2:18
This use of the word 'alone' means one in number.  He wanted there to be lots of people on the earth.  

But the man couldn't reproduce with any animal nor could he reproduce by himself.  Hence the passage, Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman...1 Cor 11:11
The phrase above means that the continued existence and propagation of man on this planet cannot be possible without the cooperation of the woman in bringing forth children.  
So we see that the woman has a high calling; a high priority in being a mother.  But it is a role that pertains to the expansion of man on the planet, thus she is subject to the man.

The woman is subject to the man and the man is to lead the woman.  It cannot be vice versa or the world starts to fall apart.  And it has been falling apart since the fall of man some six thousand years ago.  

The second reason women are not to teach or involve themselves in public teaching except in singing of the psalsm, hymns, and spiritual songs is that the woman was deceived.  

There are three places in the bible where it speaks of the woman being deceived and Eve even admitted it herself.  

Conversely, God specifically says that the man was NOT deceived.  1 Timothy 2:14.

So the woman can be persuaded to accept false doctrine through deceit.  Whereas the man will go along with it because he does not want to lose the company of the luxurious woman.  

We see this happening all around us.   How many times have you witnessed a man such as myself come around whether on line or at your church and see him get chided for speaking these truths.  

And we see what the women are saying on here:  oh it was a cultural thing.  It no longer applies.  God wants women to preach.    
There is no more basis in the bible for the above reasoning than there is for what the serpent told Eve:  'ye shall be as gods.'  

This also doesn't have to do with the posted topic.

Quote from: Supplanter on Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 12:05:28
You are assuming a lot of things that scripture does not say. Never is a woman's pivotal role strictly assigned to "mother." nor propagating the human species so more men can be born and to then offer exceptions to the "rule" that you support. That doesn't appear in scripture at all and yet you are willing to use it because it doesn't suit you that a woman should have to be completely silent all the time in church.

You are choosing what you wish and ignoring the rest of Scripture. And it isn't just "women" on this thread who disagree with you. You are not being chided, but challenged.

However, I can see how a woman daring to speak to you and teach you what you do not see would be a problem for you. Again, you are trying to put any woman who disagrees with you in the category of "enemy to the truth." Just because a woman doesn't agree with you does not make her God's enemy. You have made yourself the representative of infallible truth and woe to us women who disagree. And if we should disagree then we are somehow abusing you. That's ridiculous.

Again, if you even bothered to read the thread I posted, this issue has been beaten to death and there is plenty of information for you there.

Then I respond to where the have taken the conversation with the above.

Quote from: nuclear Rabbit on Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 15:14:23
I would say it is safe to say that most evangelfish subscribe to a set of values that are inherently opposed to God.  And they would rather God's righteousness be questioned and challenged than their own.  
It doesn't help the situation that our parents held these false values and our grandparents and their grandparents.. For at least the last two hundred years, Americans have been opposed to God on the family ideal and the worth of the mother.  And in the last forty years, the worth of the fathers has been attacked as well.  

Alexander Campbell was a supporter of the world government.  He called for a World Parliament.  Its all right there in the Millennial Harbingers if ya just look.  He was also for bringing the daughters away from the roles of mothers and wives and into being career women.  

But then again, thats what all of Western Civilization has been about.  We have exploited our daughters and mothers and sent them off to work and told them they were being liberated.  Its no surprise.  There are still southerners to this day that will claim that we were liberating the Africans when we STOLE them from their homeland.  

This country has kidnapped Africans and sold them into slavery.  Put our women out into the workforce.  We even had seven year old children working in the coal mines just a hundred years ago.
We lost our family affection.  Romans 1:31

Modified per rules for FLAMING  

And then you say the above -also off-topic.

You derailed your own thread.

cool

Quote from: yogi bear on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:46:40
cool

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21979219@N05/4742204685/

I accidentally deleted my original post which you responded to.   You have to be up there in years to remember Shari Lewis, but she had a great sockpuppet called lampchop.   

Quote from: fish153 on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:57:13

Quote from: yogi bear on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:46:40
cool

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21979219@N05/4742204685/

I accidentally deleted my original post which you responded to.   You have to be up there in years to remember Shari Lewis, but she had a great sockpuppet called lampchop.   

This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it, not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because, this is the song that never ends . . . . . . .

And sock puppet reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29

Quote from: Supplanter on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:59:43

Quote from: fish153 on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:57:13

Quote from: yogi bear on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:46:40
cool

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21979219@N05/4742204685/

I accidentally deleted my original post which you responded to.   You have to be up there in years to remember Shari Lewis, but she had a great sockpuppet called lampchop.   

This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it, not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because, this is the song that never ends . . . . . . .

And sock puppet reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29

Now after a short diversion we can get back on topic---again?

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 14:39:18

Quote from: Supplanter on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:59:43

Quote from: fish153 on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:57:13

Quote from: yogi bear on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 12:46:40
cool

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21979219@N05/4742204685/

I accidentally deleted my original post which you responded to.   You have to be up there in years to remember Shari Lewis, but she had a great sockpuppet called lampchop.   

This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it, not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because, this is the song that never ends . . . . . . .

And sock puppet reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29

Now after a short diversion we can get back on topic---again?

yes---Lively--my fault----back to the OP.

Modified per rules for FLAMING

Lively,
I think that the bible teaches that when christians are gathered together and when the bible is being taught, that unless singing is going on, all women are to remain silent. And that if they have a question, then they are to ask their husbands at home.  If they are not married, then they should seek out a christian relative or male from their congregation away from the assembly.  

Women are teaching when singing hymns.  Colossians 3:16 uses the phrase "teaching and admonishing."  But its not an authoritative type of teaching.  

As far as your example of the woman in Proverbs 31, I believe that the land that she 'buys' is her husband's land.  
The King James bible in the margin lists in its margin notes other renderings of that hebrew word for buyeth: laqach.  
Laqach is a Hebrew word that appears in the Old Testament 965 times.  Only three times is it translated as buys.  
here is the complete breakdown of how it is translated:

take 747, receive 61, take away 51, fetch 31, bring 25, get 6, take out 6, carry away 5, married 4, buy 3, misc 26

So I believe that this woman in Proverbs 31 probably was Bathsheba.  And likewise, her husband would have had plenty of land.  She then 'takes' or sets aside a piece of property for the planting of some produce that she will tend to.  

I also believe that the bible addresses those that hate women.  The people in the church at Corinth, some of them, had been infected with a hatred of femininity.  Some of them wanted to cut the ladies hair short because they hated the natural beauty of the woman.  Others wanted to cover the women over with a cloth veil.  To the first group, Paul says that this was not right and that if they were to cut the hair short, then they should just go ahead and shave the head.  To the other group, the ones that wanted to cover the women with a cloth veil, Paul tells them that the woman's hair was given to her as a covering.  Meaning, instead of an unnatural cloth covering, her hair was instead her covering.  Paul goes on to say that if any man has a problem with his directives, or is "contentious" , we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.1 Cor 11:16

Now, I've told you what I believe the bible teaches.  Please tell me what you believe the bible teaches.  

Quote from: nuclear Rabbit on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 15:07:12
modified per rules for FLAMING
Lively,
I think that the bible teaches that when christians are gathered together and when the bible is being taught, that unless singing is going on, all women are to remain silent. And that if they have a question, then they are to ask their husbands at home.  If they are not married, then they should seek out a christian relative or male from their congregation away from the assembly.  

Not really. As part of a gathering of Christians women are encouraged (by Paul, no less) to prophesy. Prophecy is not simply foretelling anything future, but it is forthtelling of scriptural truth---preaching with power, in essence.

When a woman is gifted in preaching, teaching and prophecy, she has a mandate to perform it---in and to the church. We are not to quench the Holy Spirit or His marvelous gifts, and so one sins when one tries to squelch it, or presumes to teach against it.

QuoteWomen are teaching when singing hymns.  Colossians 3:16 uses the phrase "teaching and admonishing."  But its not an authoritative type of teaching.  

Sure it is, and it isn't bad, either.

QuoteAs far as your example of the woman in Proverbs 31, I believe that the land that she 'buys' is her husband's land.  
The King James bible in the margin lists in its margin notes other renderings of that hebrew word for buyeth: laqach.  
Laqach is a Hebrew word that appears in the Old Testament 965 times.  Only three times is it translated as buys.  
here is the complete breakdown of how it is translated:

take 747, receive 61, take away 51, fetch 31, bring 25, get 6, take out 6, carry away 5, married 4, buy 3, misc 26

So I believe that this woman in Proverbs 31 probably was Bathsheba.  And likewise, her husband would have had plenty of land.  She then 'takes' or sets aside a piece of property for the planting of some produce that she will tend to.

Actually, I have read that the actual writer of Proverbs 31 could have even been his mother. Purchasing land is a very appropriate example of a woman who uses money and earnings in an independent way. Good example!

QuoteI also believe that the bible addresses those that hate women.  The people in the church at Corinth, some of them, had been infected with a hatred of femininity.  Some of them wanted to cut the ladies hair short because they hated the natural beauty of the woman.  Others wanted to cover the women over with a cloth veil.  To the first group, Paul says that this was not right and that if they were to cut the hair short, then they should just go ahead and shave the head.  To the other group, the ones that wanted to cover the women with a cloth veil, Paul tells them that the woman's hair was given to her as a covering.  Meaning, instead of an unnatural cloth covering, her hair was instead her covering.  Paul goes on to say that if any man has a problem with his directives, or is "contentious" , we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.1 Cor 11:16

Now, I've told you what I believe the bible teaches.  Please tell me what you believe the bible teaches.

Many today are still infected with that particular virus. Women who were the subject of the speech about head covering were former workers in the pagan Temples designed to worship Aphrodite. They were customarily bald. As they received Christ, they would end up in the Christian houses of worship with their heads still shorn. It was a mark of their paganism and as they were new to Christ, they needed to be instructed about their heads and what they were identifying with---much the same as many of our pastors will warn their people about tattoos---what are they identifying with?

He was encouraging hair---the proper adornment. Veils were probably acceptable in those days, but they are only a cultural tradition and out of place in 21st century North America---and elsewhere.

Beth Moore is a well respected teacher. I see no problem with her teachings. I may not care for her style but I don't listen to her.

God is a Spirit we must worship Him is Spirit and Truth


The truth is that human beings are first and foremost spirits, spirit beings that inhabit ( humus ) vessels, vessels made from elements of the earth

We are spirits!

Spirits do not have gender

Genders are physical designations that only matter in the earthen realm and have no basis in the spiritual realm

When we speak of mankind we are in fact speaking of men and women

Not males and females


Women were made from men, this means that before women, the elements of that women are made of were within man

Women in fact are men


A man with a womb is a woman

In the spirit realm we have no genitalia nothing that designates maleness or femininity

You do not worship God as a male or a female we worship God as a spirit

God is not the Father of men and women He is the Father of spirits

There is no male or female only spirit

All this discussion about women preachers is rooted in 1st century bias, misconception and the lack of understanding of what it means to be a spirit being....

..... worshiping a God who is A Spirit

God Help us!

Lively,
I want to address all of your last post but only one piece at a time.  First I'll post my statement and then your first response with follow up questions.  Does that sound okay?

modified per rules for FLAMING

QuoteLively,
I think that the bible teaches that when christians are gathered together and when the bible is being taught, that unless singing is going on, all women are to remain silent. And that if they have a question, then they are to ask their husbands at home.  If they are not married, then they should seek out a christian relative or male from their congregation away from the assembly.

To which you said:

QuoteNot really. As part of a gathering of Christians women are encouraged (by Paul, no less) to prophesy. Prophecy is not simply foretelling anything future, but it is forthtelling of scriptural truth---preaching with power, in essence.

When a woman is gifted in preaching, teaching and prophecy, she has a mandate to perform it---in and to the church. We are not to quench the Holy Spirit or His marvelous gifts, and so one sins when one tries to squelch it, or presumes to teach against it.

Question:  

1. How did you arrive at that definition of prophesying?

I have cleaned this thread up.

Please stay on topic and stop: Race or ethinc or geographical slandering or gender slandering.

Hate speech is not allowed on this forum.

Personal comments about members especially Moderators is at the very least risky and most likely violating rules of this forum. (as were most personal comments made in this thread)

And where I took the time to clean the portion of the posts that were offensive I am not spending that much time again...I will delete whole posts in the future. 

Quote from: nuclear Rabbit on Fri Oct 07, 2011 - 17:02:03
Lively,
I want to address all of your last post but only one piece at a time.  First I'll post my statement and then your first response with follow up questions.  Does that sound okay?

modified per rules for FLAMING

QuoteLively,
I think that the bible teaches that when christians are gathered together and when the bible is being taught, that unless singing is going on, all women are to remain silent. And that if they have a question, then they are to ask their husbands at home.  If they are not married, then they should seek out a christian relative or male from their congregation away from the assembly.

To which you said:

QuoteNot really. As part of a gathering of Christians women are encouraged (by Paul, no less) to prophesy. Prophecy is not simply foretelling anything future, but it is forthtelling of scriptural truth---preaching with power, in essence.

When a woman is gifted in preaching, teaching and prophecy, she has a mandate to perform it---in and to the church. We are not to quench the Holy Spirit or His marvelous gifts, and so one sins when one tries to squelch it, or presumes to teach against it.

Question:  

1. How did you arrive at that definition of prophesying?

That is the definition of prophecy, and you can add that it is a revelation from God to the hearer---which is what many call, 'Rhema', and it comes through the preaching and teaching vehicles.


.