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Repent and receive Jesus as your Lord and savor or one will burn forever in Hades is the Gospel message a lot of  Christians present to the unsaved. The reason given is that on judgment day God will cast the unsaved into hell to burn forever for all the sins they have committed. If they accept God's Son then all their sins are erased forever and they go to Heaven.

Is this true?

Lets consider the Jew first.

God, through Moses, gave the Jews the law thousands of years ago. When a Jewish male reached the age of 13 He was considered accountable to abide by the law. They started receiving instruction at a very early age and by age 13 most Jews knew what was required of them.

Rom 2:12-13

12 For as many as have sinned without the Law, shall perish also without the Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law, shall be judged by the Law,

13 (For the hearers of the Law are not righteous before God: but the doers of the Law shall be justified.
GENEVA

So there it is. Those under the law will be judged by the law. So a Jew that has not kept the law burns for any violation of the law.

Rom 2:14

14 For when the Gentiles which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, they having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves,
GENEVA

Rom 5:13

13 For unto the time of the Law was sin in the world, but sin is not imputed, while there is no law.
14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them also that sinned not after the like manner of the transgression of Adam, which was the figure of him that was to come.
GENEVA

So the Gentiles do not have the law and where there is no law sin is not imputed. So what are we guilty of? In Ro 2:12 above it says those without the law that have sinned will perish. So I went looking for the law(s) for the Gentiles.  You might start in Genesis and read if you care to.

Rom 1:18-31

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, which withhold the truth in unrighteousness.
19 Forasmuch as that, which may be known of God, is manifest in them, for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him, that is, his eternal power and Godhead, are seen by the creation of the world, being considered in his works, to the intent that they should be without excuse:
21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.
27 And likewise also the men left the natural use of the woman, and burned in their lust one toward another, and man with man wrought filthiness, and received in themselves such recompense of their error, as was meet.
28 For as they regarded not to acknowledge God, even so God delivered them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient,
29 Being full of all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, of murder, of debate, of deceit, taking all things in the evil part, whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, doers of wrong, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, such as can never be appeased, merciless.
31 Which men, though they knew the Law of God, how that they which commit such things are worthy of death, yet not only do the same, but also favor them that do them.
GENEVA

I could not find any law from God to the gentiles. Romans 1:18-31 above is the closest. Verse 31 says that all people know the law but it doesn't say that they are responsible to keep it.( I suppose that this is our conscience.)  Also Romans 5:13 states that during a time included in Romans 1:18-31 sin was not imputed. Why do we need find these laws? Ro 5:13 says no law=no sin. Does God send gentiles to hell when sin is not imputed to them?

Rom 7:8-10

8 But sin took an occasion by the commandment, and wrought in me all manner of concupiscence: for without the Law sin is dead.

9 For I once was alive, without the law: but when the commandment came, sin revived,

10 But I died: and the same commandment which was ordained unto life, was found to be unto me unto death.
GENEVA

Until age 13 Paul was alive because he had no sin (He was not under the law).

1 Cor 15:56

56 The sting of death is sin: and the strength of sin is the Law.
GENEVA

(zero law = zero strength = zero sin = zero sting)

So there are three scriptures that say no law = no sin.

Ro 2:12 states that those without the law will perish in contrast to those under the law who receive judgment. And  since no one will be declared righteous by works of the law they to shall parish. As Ro 5:13 states death still reigned even though no sin was imputed. Since sin is not imputed to those without the law they perish even though no charges of sin were brought against them.

I ask again, does God send gentiles to burn forever with no charge of sin against them?

Romans 2:5-16
5 But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done. 7 He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. 8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness. 9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 10 But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.

John 3:17-22 KJV
17.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22.  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Matthew 15:10-20 KJV
10.  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11.  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12.  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13.  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14.  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15.  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16.  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17.  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18.  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19.  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20.  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
THESE THINGS PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH FROM THE HEART
AND EVERYONE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11.  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12.  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13.  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14.  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15.  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Therefore:

Matthew 28:19-20 ASV
19.  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20.  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Name of the Father - Old Testament Water of the WORD
Name of the Son - New Testament Water of the WORD

John 17:5-8 KJV
5.  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6.  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7.  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8.  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 16:40:36
Romans 2:5-16
5 But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done. 7 He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. 8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness. 9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 10 But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.

I rejected that list as it was to vague. A list like that was probably used by the Corinthian church.



1 Cor 5:1-8
1 It is heard certainly that there is fornication among you: and such fornication as is not once named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather sorrowed, that he which hath done this deed, might be put from among you.

3 For I verily as absent in body, but present in spirit, have determined already as though I were present, that he that hath thus done this thing,

4 When ye are gathered together, and my spirit, in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that such one, I say, by the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 Be delivered unto Satan, for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your rejoicing is not good: know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened: for Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither in the leaven of maliciousness and wickedness: but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


GENEVA

Here's an entire church that Paul probably had led some of them to salvation. Not one of them knew that gentiles were supposed to repent fornication with your fathers wife. That sin didn't seem to be defined  good enough for them to know that the young man had to repent of it.

daq

What you quoted is a Jew talking to Jews about Jewish law.

Quote from: daq on Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 23:45:36
John 3:17-22 KJV
17.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22.  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Matthew 15:10-20 KJV
10.  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11.  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12.  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13.  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14.  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15.  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16.  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17.  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18.  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19.  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20.  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
THESE THINGS PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH FROM THE HEART
AND EVERYONE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11.  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12.  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13.  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14.  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15.  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Therefore:

Matthew 28:19-20 ASV
19.  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20.  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Name of the Father - Old Testament Water of the WORD
Name of the Son - New Testament Water of the WORD

John 17:5-8 KJV
5.  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6.  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7.  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8.  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

daq

I'm sorry that I gave the quick resonce to your reply above. I had seen Lively Stone's reply and went off line to consider. I then work up my reply off line, copy and  then paste it on line when its ready. I did not do that with yours. I am going to change my answer when I get  it worked up. Again I am sorry. 

Quote from: xheathen on Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 07:42:16

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 16:40:36
Romans 2:5-16
5 But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done. 7 He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. 8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness. 9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 10 But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.

I rejected that list as it was to vague. A list like that was probably used by the Corinthian church.

What list?

Have you rejected scripture?

Quote from: xheathen on Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 07:42:16
daq

What you quoted is a Jew talking to Jews about Jewish law.

Quote from: xheathen on Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 16:26:18
daq

I'm sorry that I gave the quick resonce to your reply above. I had seen Lively Stone's reply and went off line to consider. I then work up my reply off line, copy and  then paste it on line when its ready. I did not do that with yours. I am going to change my answer when I get  it worked up. Again I am sorry. 

Duly noted, however, you appear to have gone back and edited your reply to state what is in the first quote box above; and that is what you changed it to say instead? Perhaps I should be glad I did not have a chance to read what it might have said before you edited the post. Are you offended that Christ Yeshua was a Jew of Judah? Of the house of David? The Lion of the Tribe of Judah? Most certainly then you would be offended if I also am a Jew in Christ.

According to the Scripture anyone who claims to be a Christian also claims, by default, to be a spiritual Jew because Yeshua is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and we are graffed into the heavenly Family by and through him into the Olive Tree of YHWH, (Rom.11). Anyone who claims to have undergone the spiritual "circumcision made without hands" then effectively claims and acknowledges himself to be a spiritual Jew. This is an integral part of the Gospel message delivered through Paul and has bearing when one arrives at the final book of the New Testament.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

To the Smyrna Ekklesia ~

Revelation 2:9 KJV
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

To the Philadelphia Ekklesia ~

Revelation 3:9 KJV
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Those who claim to be Christians also claim to be spiritual Jews whether they know it or not. If you are not a spiritual Jew, circumcised in heart by Yeshua the Master and searcher of the reins and hearts, and our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek, then perhaps you simply do not understand what it means to be called a Christian. And that is according to the Scripture and the true Gospel of Yeshua, the Lion of Judah, with and in whom we which believe are all one: even his brethren, and sons of YHWH. Judaea is the fertile soil of the 'adamah-heart, (Parable of the Sower). Therefore to the hyper-dispensationalists I say this:

Fall 723BC  =  Year of Jubilee - Yom Kippur - 10 Tishri
Fall 726BC - Fall 723BC  =  3 Years - Siege of Samaria
Fall 726BC - 2730 Years (Ezekiel 4)  =  Fall 2005AD

606BC - Jehoiakim served Nebuchadnezzar 3 years.
603BC - Jehoiakim rebelled for 3 years (2 Kings 24:1)
606BC - 600BC  =  3 years of servitude - 3 years of rebellion.
573BC - Jubilee Year - Ezekiel 40:1

Ezekiel 4:6 - House of Judah 40 Years + 7 Times Oath (Lev.26)
7  x  40  =  280 Years
603BC - 323BC = 280 Years
323BC - Jubilee Year - Final return under Ezra-Nehemiah completed.

Ezekiel 4:4-5 - House of Israel 390 Years + 7 Times Oath (Lev.26)
7  x  390  =  2730 Years
726BC - 2005AD = 2730 Years from start of Siege of Samaria
723BC - 2008AD = 2730 Years from start of Northern Tribes Captivity

THE EPOCH OF LAODICEA ENDED 2005AD-2008AD

FINAL HARVEST OF THE ISREALITES (a short work ~ Rom. 9:28)
2005-2006AD + 7 Years  =  2012-2013AD

AND TIME IS RUNNING OUT TO BE GRAFFED INTO ISRAEL

Matthew 15:24 KJV
24.  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 ASV
24.  But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 YGB
24.  and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Matthew 15:24 DRB
24.  But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.

Matthew 15:24 WEY
24.  "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.

Matthew 15:24 RSV
24.  He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Those who wish to remain "Gentiles" (heathen) are free to do so ...
However, as for the Times of the Gentiles, they are OVER!

Sorry for the luck!

Quote from: daq on Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 23:45:36
John 3:17-22 KJV
17.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22.  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Matthew 15:10-20 KJV
10.  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11.  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12.  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13.  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14.  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15.  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16.  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17.  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18.  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19.  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20.  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
THESE THINGS PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH FROM THE HEART
AND EVERYONE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11.  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12.  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13.  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14.  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15.  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Therefore:

Matthew 28:19-20 ASV
19.  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20.  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Name of the Father - Old Testament Water of the WORD
Name of the Son - New Testament Water of the WORD

John 17:5-8 KJV
5.  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6.  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7.  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8.  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Matt 15:10 -20. As I see it  is Jewish law. No where does it say that gentiles are held accountable when they commit those acts. I know in the old testament that God brought judgment on gentiles for doing these things. But in Romans Paul clearly states that gentiles do not have the law. And again in Romans Paul states that death ruled prior to  the law but that sin was not imputed without the law.

So when God destroyed Sodom and ( Gen 13:13) states that the men were wicked and exceeding sinners against the Lord; in the light of Ro 5:13 their sin was not imputed for eternal judgment. Even after the law, which was given to Israel and not the gentiles, God destroyed (or judged) the nation(s) and not the people for eternal judgment. I guess in those cases God is protecting the weak and innocent people and also shaping history for his purposes.


John 3:11-15. Again I ask where is the law for gentiles pertaining to the things mentioned? People may be murders in God's eyes but until he imputes that sin to them they are not guilty of it as far as eternal judgment.

Matt 28:19-20 Jesus is talking to his apostles telling them to teach those who believe and are saved.

John 17:5-8 Jesus is talking about those Jews that believed on him. He did not give the word to the entire world.

You have probably noticed I have not committed on John 3:17-22. John 3:18 is the closest to a law that I can determine. But not from here.

John 16:7-11

7 Yet I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, that Comforter will not come unto you: but if I depart, I will send him unto you,

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

9 Of sin, because they believed not in me:

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye shall see me no more.

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
GENEVA

This, in my opinion, is as close to being the law that the gentiles are responsible for. Until someone shows  me from the Bible another verse(s) that states clearly "this is what God holds people accountable for

Quote from: daq on Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 06:55:40

Quote from: xheathen on Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 07:42:16
daq

What you quoted is a Jew talking to Jews about Jewish law.

Quote from: xheathen on Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 16:26:18
daq

I'm sorry that I gave the quick resonce to your reply above. I had seen Lively Stone's reply and went off line to consider. I then work up my reply off line, copy and  then paste it on line when its ready. I did not do that with yours. I am going to change my answer when I get  it worked up. Again I am sorry. 

Duly noted, however, you appear to have gone back and edited your reply to state what is in the first quote box above; and that is what you changed it to say instead? Perhaps I should be glad I did not have a chance to read what it might have said before you edited the post. Are you offended that Christ Yeshua was a Jew of Judah? Of the house of David? The Lion of the Tribe of Judah? Most certainly then you would be offended if I also am a Jew in Christ.

According to the Scripture anyone who claims to be a Christian also claims, by default, to be a spiritual Jew because Yeshua is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and we are graffed into the heavenly Family by and through him into the Olive Tree of YHWH, (Rom.11). Anyone who claims to have undergone the spiritual "circumcision made without hands" then effectively claims and acknowledges himself to be a spiritual Jew. This is an integral part of the Gospel message delivered through Paul and has bearing when one arrives at the final book of the New Testament.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

To the Smyrna Ekklesia ~

Revelation 2:9 KJV
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

To the Philadelphia Ekklesia ~

Revelation 3:9 KJV
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Those who claim to be Christians also claim to be spiritual Jews whether they know it or not. If you are not a spiritual Jew, circumcised in heart by Yeshua the Master and searcher of the reins and hearts, and our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek, then perhaps you simply do not understand what it means to be called a Christian. And that is according to the Scripture and the true Gospel of Yeshua, the Lion of Judah, with and in whom we which believe are all one: even his brethren, and sons of YHWH. Judaea is the fertile soil of the 'adamah-heart, (Parable of the Sower). Therefore to the hyper-dispensationalists I say this:

Fall 723BC  =  Year of Jubilee - Yom Kippur - 10 Tishri
Fall 726BC - Fall 723BC  =  3 Years - Siege of Samaria
Fall 726BC - 2730 Years (Ezekiel 4)  =  Fall 2005AD

606BC - Jehoiakim served Nebuchadnezzar 3 years.
603BC - Jehoiakim rebelled for 3 years (2 Kings 24:1)
606BC - 600BC  =  3 years of servitude - 3 years of rebellion.
573BC - Jubilee Year - Ezekiel 40:1

Ezekiel 4:6 - House of Judah 40 Years + 7 Times Oath (Lev.26)
7  x  40  =  280 Years
603BC - 323BC = 280 Years
323BC - Jubilee Year - Final return under Ezra-Nehemiah completed.

Ezekiel 4:4-5 - House of Israel 390 Years + 7 Times Oath (Lev.26)
7  x  390  =  2730 Years
726BC - 2005AD = 2730 Years from start of Siege of Samaria
723BC - 2008AD = 2730 Years from start of Northern Tribes Captivity

THE EPOCH OF LAODICEA ENDED 2005AD-2008AD

FINAL HARVEST OF THE ISREALITES (a short work ~ Rom. 9:28)
2005-2006AD + 7 Years  =  2012-2013AD

AND TIME IS RUNNING OUT TO BE GRAFFED INTO ISRAEL

Matthew 15:24 KJV
24.  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 ASV
24.  But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 YGB
24.  and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Matthew 15:24 DRB
24.  But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.

Matthew 15:24 WEY
24.  "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.

Matthew 15:24 RSV
24.  He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Those who wish to remain "Gentiles" (heathen) are free to do so ...
However, as for the Times of the Gentiles, they are OVER!

Sorry for the luck!

Since I do not need scripture to answer this I will do it now. Yes I am a Jew by adoption.

People get into trouble applying what Jesus has said to the Jews and saying that it applies to gentiles as well. Case in point Paul has clearly stated that gentiles are not imputed sin based on Jewish law. I did not have to repent of not observing the Sabbath when I received salvation. I did not have to repent of any sin except that which God had imputed to me and that is what this topic is concerning. After I became an adopted Jew I still did not have to observe Jewish law. Why? Because God does not impute sins (for eternal judgment) to me because I am in Jesus. I am now under the law of love. I am held accountable for sins that do not glorify God or that do not reflect my status as a child of God. Those still do not affect my eternal salvation but they will determine if I get a well done faithful servant. They also determine just how long God leaves me on earth. If I finish all that God has in store for me, I will have observed the law of love to His satisfaction.

Paul makes clear the message to the Gentiles at Mars Hill, (no more "winking" from YHWH). All Gentiles are COMMANDED to repent. And this is clear already from the Scripture I posted from Yeshua above in John 3. Anyone who does not believe into the name Yeshua, unto salvation, by faith, is condemned already: a "dead man" walking because the Master says so. The reference below to "determining the bounds of their habitation" is no doubt a reference to "the bounds of the nations" which were set "ACCORDING TO THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL". Therefore where is this so-called "Jewish Law" that you speak of? There is no such thing in Scripture but rather Torah is "Mosaic" and thus includes all the tribes of Israel, (Judah is but one tribe and son of Jacob).

Acts 17:18-31 KJV
18.  Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19.  And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20.  For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21.  (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22.  Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23.  For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24.  God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25.  Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26.  And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27.  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28.  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29.  Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30.  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31.  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Deuteronomy 32:7-9 KJV
7.  Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8.  When the most high divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9.  For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

What a wonderful Plan!!! YHWH planned the Laws and statutes given in Torah for all the nations of the world, (which are truly Spirit and not letter). Therefore to be truly "saved" is to be grafted into the Olive Tree of YHWH, (Romans 11) and thus becoming a true Israelite, and Paul uses the analogy given from Jeremiah 11 which includes both houses: the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

Jeremiah 11:16-17 KJV
16.  The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17.  For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

Romans 11:16-22 KJV
16.  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17.  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18.  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19.  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20.  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21.  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22.  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Now, therefore, if you have come to Christ then you do indeed have a Law and it is supernal Torah, (the Law of love as you say). The Canaanite woman of Tyre was graffed into the Olive Tree of Israel by faith. Yeshua NEVER changes his stance, NEVER changes his mind, nor rescinds his statement, and he never will. He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Even worship was not enough: the Canaanite woman of Tyre had to change her own mindset and be willing to submit to the Son of YHWH, and she did...

Matthew 15:18-28 KJV
18.  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19.  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20.  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
21.  Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22.  And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23.  But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24.  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25.  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26.  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27.  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28.  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And [also] her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The Canaanite woman was NO LONGER a Canaanite.
She willingly submitted and was graffed into Israel BY FAITH.
She did not know she was a lost sheep of Israel until she was found.
Even the Jews by the flesh MUST do the same, (ie. Nicodemus).

The legal implications of what Yeshua accomplished, (and why Adam comes up often in the letters of Paul) are such that mankind without Christ is now "on the hook" because Yeshua condemned sin in the flesh. The sin of all humanity is now condemned because the innocent Christ Yeshua went to the Cross. Deuteronomy 32:8 takes the statement quoted above all the way back to Adam and Paul does the same at Mars Hill. This is because Adam BROKE the very first commandment ever given and all humanity proceeds from Adam originally. Therefore Christ came and fulfilled the requirements under Torah and Mosaic Law. Therefore anyone who comes to Christ comes to the family from which he entered into the world in the flesh body which was prepared for him. Therefore Yeshua is the LAST ADAM according to the Scripture.

Romans 8:3-4 KJV
3.  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4.  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For this reason also:

Acts 4:12 KJV
12.  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Legally speaking, which first required a Law, Christ came and fulfilled the requirements set forth in the Law and because he did so according to the Plan, which was to do so under Torah-Mosaic Law given by YHWH, then all humanity now falls under the umbrella of Mosaic Law because Yeshua is the last Adam and the first Adam broke the Law. Therefore anyone who rejects Christ is condemned already. The Gentiles and their "princes" and "kings" (spirit) are also guilty for killing the Messiah:

Acts 4:25-28 KJV
25.  Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26.  The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27.  For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28.  For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Every nation was at Jerusalem: the Greeks, (Yavan) were the last ones to show up. When this happened Yeshua states the following:

John 12:19-23 KJV
19.  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
20.  And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21.  The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22.  Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23.  And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Why is it that Yeshua said this when the Greeks desired an audience with him? That the hour was come, that the Son of man should be glorified? Did he go and speak with the Greeks after this? Search and see that he never seeks them out to speak with them. The reason it is given in the text is to reveal that they, the Greeks, also needed to be there so that the Son of man might put before them, and before all the nations of the earth which proceeded from Adam: the condemnation of the sins of the entire world upon the Cross. 

The beauty of it all, legally speaking, is thus: Most of the "court proceedings" are completed and for this reason all judgment is committed unto the Son. The Father judges no man because all judgment is committed unto the Son who gave his life and poured out his soul unto death in the place of the Jews, the Israelites, in our place, and in the place of all mankind.

All that remains is therefore the decision-judgment and its rewards or the decision-judgment and its condemnation. However, be aware that the Canaanite woman of Tyre was willing to eat whatsoever "crumbs" fell from the table of the Master, (submission of the will and the discipleship-baptism of eating the "clean food" of the entire Word). And some times the Master gives us things for our own good which are "sweet as honey in the mouth" but bitter-water wormwood to the belly in digestion, (supernal Torah). Yet he states of his true disciples: "And if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them" (Mrk.16:18) and "those who overcome shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev.2:11).

John 5:21-24 KJV
21.  For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22.  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23.  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24.  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV
32.  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33.  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

For those who reject Christ the final court room verdict and sentencing need only consist of the following words:

"DEPART FROM ME: FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU"...

Quote from: daq on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 08:02:52
The beauty of it all, legally speaking, is thus: Most of the "court proceedings" are completed and for this reason all judgment is committed unto the Son. The Father judges no man because all judgment is committed unto the Son who gave his life and poured out his soul unto death in the place of the Jews, the Israelites, in our place, and in the place of all mankind.

All that remains is therefore the decision-judgment and its rewards or the decision-judgment and its condemnation. However, be aware that the Canaanite woman of Tyre was willing to eat whatsoever "crumbs" fell from the table of the Master, (submission of the will and the discipleship-baptism of eating the "clean food" of the entire Word). And some times the Master gives us things for our own good which are "sweet as honey in the mouth" but bitter-water wormwood to the belly in digestion, (supernal Torah). Yet he states of his true disciples: "And if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them" (Mrk.16:18) and "those who overcome shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev.2:11).

John 5:21-24 KJV
21.  For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22.  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23.  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24.  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV
32.  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33.  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

For those who reject Christ the final court room verdict and sentencing need only consist of the following words:

"DEPART FROM ME: FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU"...

Most of the verses that you cite in your last 3 or 4 posts don't relate to the discussion at all. The verse in deut. doesn't mean what you say at all. What is the tie in with Greek Jews to what this discussion is about? Or did you not realize that they were Greek Jews? How does the Canaanite woman apply? I never have denied that a saved person is a Jew either by birth or by adoption. It seems as though your trying to throw out verses in the hope that something will apply.

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 20:04:43
Most of the verses that you cite in your last 3 or 4 posts don't relate to the discussion at all. The verse in deut. doesn't mean what you say at all. What is the tie in with Greek Jews to what this discussion is about? Or did you not realize that they were Greek Jews? How does the Canaanite woman apply? I never have denied that a saved person is a Jew either by birth or by adoption. It seems as though your trying to throw out verses in the hope that something will apply.

Actually most of it is right on target according to your responses because your response to Matthew 15 was the following and the Canaanite woman of Tyre is the same passage:

Quote from: xheathen on Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 10:14:48

Quote from: daq on Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 23:45:36
John 3:17-22 KJV
17.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22.  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Matthew 15:10-20 KJV
10.  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11.  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12.  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13.  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14.  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15.  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16.  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17.  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18.  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19.  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20.  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
THESE THINGS PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH FROM THE HEART
AND EVERYONE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11.  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12.  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13.  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14.  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15.  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Therefore:

Matthew 28:19-20 ASV
19.  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20.  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Name of the Father - Old Testament Water of the WORD
Name of the Son - New Testament Water of the WORD

John 17:5-8 KJV
5.  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6.  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7.  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8.  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Matt 15:10 -20. As I see it  is Jewish law. No where does it say that gentiles are held accountable when they commit those acts. I know in the old testament that God brought judgment on gentiles for doing these things. But in Romans Paul clearly states that gentiles do not have the law. And again in Romans Paul states that death ruled prior to  the law but that sin was not imputed without the law.

So when God destroyed Sodom and ( Gen 13:13) states that the men were wicked and exceeding sinners against the Lord; in the light of Ro 5:13 their sin was not imputed for eternal judgment. Even after the law, which was given to Israel and not the gentiles, God destroyed (or judged) the nation(s) and not the people for eternal judgment. I guess in those cases God is protecting the weak and innocent people and also shaping history for his purposes.


John 3:11-15. Again I ask where is the law for gentiles pertaining to the things mentioned? People may be murders in God's eyes but until he imputes that sin to them they are not guilty of it as far as eternal judgment.

Matt 28:19-20 Jesus is talking to his apostles telling them to teach those who believe and are saved.

John 17:5-8 Jesus is talking about those Jews that believed on him. He did not give the word to the entire world.

You have probably noticed I have not committed on John 3:17-22. John 3:18 is the closest to a law that I can determine. But not from here.

John 16:7-11

7 Yet I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, that Comforter will not come unto you: but if I depart, I will send him unto you,

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

9 Of sin, because they believed not in me:

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye shall see me no more.

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
GENEVA

This, in my opinion, is as close to being the law that the gentiles are responsible for. Until someone shows  me from the Bible another verse(s) that states clearly "this is what God holds people accountable for

Quote from: daq on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 21:55:27

Quote from: xheathen on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 20:04:43
Most of the verses that you cite in your last 3 or 4 posts don't relate to the discussion at all. The verse in deut. doesn't mean what you say at all. What is the tie in with Greek Jews to what this discussion is about? Or did you not realize that they were Greek Jews? How does the Canaanite woman apply? I never have denied that a saved person is a Jew either by birth or by adoption. It seems as though your trying to throw out verses in the hope that something will apply.

Actually most of it is right on target according to your responses because your response to Matthew 15 was the following and the Canaanite woman of Tyre is the same passage:

Quote from: xheathen on Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 10:14:48

Quote from: daq on Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 23:45:36
John 3:17-22 KJV
17.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22.  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Matthew 15:10-20 KJV
10.  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11.  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12.  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13.  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14.  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15.  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16.  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17.  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18.  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19.  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20.  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
THESE THINGS PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH FROM THE HEART
AND EVERYONE IS CONDEMNED ALREADY

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11.  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12.  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13.  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14.  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15.  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Therefore:

Matthew 28:19-20 ASV
19.  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
20.  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Name of the Father - Old Testament Water of the WORD
Name of the Son - New Testament Water of the WORD

John 17:5-8 KJV
5.  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6.  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7.  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8.  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Matt 15:10 -20. As I see it  is Jewish law. No where does it say that gentiles are held accountable when they commit those acts. I know in the old testament that God brought judgment on gentiles for doing these things. But in Romans Paul clearly states that gentiles do not have the law. And again in Romans Paul states that death ruled prior to  the law but that sin was not imputed without the law.

So when God destroyed Sodom and ( Gen 13:13) states that the men were wicked and exceeding sinners against the Lord; in the light of Ro 5:13 their sin was not imputed for eternal judgment. Even after the law, which was given to Israel and not the gentiles, God destroyed (or judged) the nation(s) and not the people for eternal judgment. I guess in those cases God is protecting the weak and innocent people and also shaping history for his purposes.


John 3:11-15. Again I ask where is the law for gentiles pertaining to the things mentioned? People may be murders in God's eyes but until he imputes that sin to them they are not guilty of it as far as eternal judgment.

Matt 28:19-20 Jesus is talking to his apostles telling them to teach those who believe and are saved.

John 17:5-8 Jesus is talking about those Jews that believed on him. He did not give the word to the entire world.

You have probably noticed I have not committed on John 3:17-22. John 3:18 is the closest to a law that I can determine. But not from here.

John 16:7-11

7 Yet I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, that Comforter will not come unto you: but if I depart, I will send him unto you,

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

9 Of sin, because they believed not in me:

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye shall see me no more.

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
GENEVA

This, in my opinion, is as close to being the law that the gentiles are responsible for. Until someone shows  me from the Bible another verse(s) that states clearly "this is what God holds people accountable for

Quote from: xheathen on Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 15:01:13
Repent and receive Jesus as your Lord and savor or one will burn forever in Hades is the Gospel message a lot of  Christians present to the unsaved. The reason given is that on judgment day God will cast the unsaved into hell to burn forever for all the sins they have committed. If they accept God's Son then all their sins are erased forever and they go to Heaven.

Is this true?

Lets consider the Jew first.

God, through Moses, gave the Jews the law thousands of years ago. When a Jewish male reached the age of 13 He was considered accountable to abide by the law. They started receiving instruction at a very early age and by age 13 most Jews knew what was required of them.

Rom 2:12-13

12 For as many as have sinned without the Law, shall perish also without the Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law, shall be judged by the Law,

13 (For the hearers of the Law are not righteous before God: but the doers of the Law shall be justified.
GENEVA

So there it is. Those under the law will be judged by the law. So a Jew that has not kept the law burns for any violation of the law.

Rom 2:14

14 For when the Gentiles which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, they having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves,
GENEVA

Rom 5:13

13 For unto the time of the Law was sin in the world, but sin is not imputed, while there is no law.
14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them also that sinned not after the like manner of the transgression of Adam, which was the figure of him that was to come.
GENEVA

So the Gentiles do not have the law and where there is no law sin is not imputed. So what are we guilty of? In Ro 2:12 above it says those without the law that have sinned will perish. So I went looking for the law(s) for the Gentiles.  You might start in Genesis and read if you care to.

Rom 1:18-31

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, which withhold the truth in unrighteousness.
19 Forasmuch as that, which may be known of God, is manifest in them, for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him, that is, his eternal power and Godhead, are seen by the creation of the world, being considered in his works, to the intent that they should be without excuse:
21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.
27 And likewise also the men left the natural use of the woman, and burned in their lust one toward another, and man with man wrought filthiness, and received in themselves such recompense of their error, as was meet.
28 For as they regarded not to acknowledge God, even so God delivered them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient,
29 Being full of all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, of murder, of debate, of deceit, taking all things in the evil part, whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, doers of wrong, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, such as can never be appeased, merciless.
31 Which men, though they knew the Law of God, how that they which commit such things are worthy of death, yet not only do the same, but also favor them that do them.
GENEVA

I could not find any law from God to the gentiles. Romans 1:18-31 above is the closest. Verse 31 says that all people know the law but it doesn't say that they are responsible to keep it.( I suppose that this is our conscience.)  Also Romans 5:13 states that during a time included in Romans 1:18-31 sin was not imputed. Why do we need find these laws? Ro 5:13 says no law=no sin. Does God send gentiles to hell when sin is not imputed to them?

Rom 7:8-10

8 But sin took an occasion by the commandment, and wrought in me all manner of concupiscence: for without the Law sin is dead.

9 For I once was alive, without the law: but when the commandment came, sin revived,

10 But I died: and the same commandment which was ordained unto life, was found to be unto me unto death.
GENEVA

Until age 13 Paul was alive because he had no sin (He was not under the law).

1 Cor 15:56

56 The sting of death is sin: and the strength of sin is the Law.
GENEVA

(zero law = zero strength = zero sin = zero sting)

So there are three scriptures that say no law = no sin.

Ro 2:12 states that those without the law will perish in contrast to those under the law who receive judgment. And  since no one will be declared righteous by works of the law they to shall parish. As Ro 5:13 states death still reigned even though no sin was imputed. Since sin is not imputed to those without the law they perish even though no charges of sin were brought against them.

I ask again, does God send gentiles to burn forever with no charge of sin against them?

Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Peace

I believe this christian idea of burn forever is a false gospel, the blind leading the blind both fall into a ditch, as the heathen learn to blaspheme the holy name of God, due to the incorrect doctrines.

A true student of the word must be willing to study the original translations and understand Gods simple message of salvation for all.

Quote from: FireSword on Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 13:43:02
I believe this christian idea of burn forever is a false gospel, the blind leading the blind both fall into a ditch, as the heathen learn to blaspheme the holy name of God, due to the incorrect doctrines.

A true student of the word must be willing to study the original translations and understand Gods simple message of salvation for all.

'Gospel' means 'good news'.

Salvation is for all through Jesus Christ---that's the Good News, but those who reject it as a free gift will have to pay. Forever.

If you aren't a family member, you have no seat to dinner.

(This isn't non-traditional theology, but the refutation of this truth is.)

I know that one form of payment will be the great day of the lord, as those that do wickedly shall be burned as stubble.

But I see this as Gods showing off His majesty.

He then can resurrect them during the 1000 year millenium peace and give them a Godly upbringing, instead of this evil upringing of the worldly conditions, where many kids are taught incorrect.

You have the strength of traddition, but the testimony of Jesus is greater. Most church history is clouded with all kinds of confusion, but the early church who is considered the greatest, most of their writings has disappeared, apart from the scriptures, so we are on even keel, scripture vs scripture.

Quote from: FireSword on Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 13:55:10
I know that one form of payment will be the great day of the lord, as those that do wickedly shall be burned as stubble.

But I see this as Gods showing off His majesty.

He then can resurrect them during the 1000 year millenium peace and give them a Godly upbringing, instead of this evil upringing of the worldly conditions, where many kids are taught incorrect.

You have the strength of traddition, but the testimony of Jesus is greater. Most church history is clouded with all kinds of confusion, but the early church who is considered the greatest, most of their writings has disappeared, apart from the scriptures, so we are on even keel, scripture vs scripture.

Please cite scripture that speaks about the wicked, once judged, being resurrected during the Millennium, seeing as their Judgment occurs after the Millennium.

Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.

Revelation shows that the overcomers shall be priests of God and rule a thousand years.

What is a priest?

Doesn't a priest offer up sacrifices of praise and intercede for the sins of the wicked?

Who are these wicked? since saints are supposed to be perfect.

The scriptures show that the saints shall receive the powers of the age to come, that means we can raise the dead.

So those of us who have a heart  are able to raise the dead unbelievers.

Ezekiel 37

4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Quote from: FireSword on Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 14:37:35
Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.

Revelation shows that the overcomers shall be priests of God and rule a thousand years.

What is a priest?

Doesn't a priest offer up sacrifices of praise and intercede for the sins of the wicked?

We, the Church, are those priests.

QuoteWho are these wicked? since saints are supposed to be perfect.

The wicked---those without Christ.

QuoteThe scriptures show that the saints shall receive the powers of the age to come, that means we can raise the dead.

So those of us who have a heart  are able to raise the dead unbelievers.

We have that power through Jesus Christ.

QuoteEzekiel 37

4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

You misappropriate scripture to your own detriment.

Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be


Must have more faith

OP there are many more verse in the new testament than you quoted.

The fact is if a gentile does not accept Jesus as their Lord and savior then they will go to hell.

Quote from: cs80918 on Wed Nov 09, 2011 - 11:10:50
OP there are many more verse in the new testament than you quoted.

The fact is if a gentile does not accept Jesus as their Lord and savior then they will go to hell.

You're right

ONLY

IF they have actually heard "THE" Gospel and after having done so REJECT Jesus

Some people preach an unauthorized message which is not really "THE" GOOD NEWS of Christ Jesus

If they have not heard THAT Gospel

God will not hold them accountable for what they HAVE NOT heard

For faith comes by hearing

That is why it is so important that people preach and teach The Authorized Message of Reconciliation and not a whole lot of other stuff that is not

THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST JESUS   

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:16

Quote from: cs80918 on Wed Nov 09, 2011 - 11:10:50
OP there are many more verse in the new testament than you quoted.

The fact is if a gentile does not accept Jesus as their Lord and savior then they will go to hell.

They'll get bored of it, then call on Jesus to save them, who has the keys of hell.