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Adam and Eve existed in heaven and when Cain was banished, he existed with another group of people outside. Did these people co-exists with Adam and Eve when they were in heaven and they were outside?

I think heaven exists on earth in the beginning.

In revelation people are co-existing with people that aren't in heaven as well, Revelation 22:15. Both these places, garden of Eden and revelation 22:15 had people existing outside of "heaven".

I think heaven exists on earth in the end. Is this the millennial reign?

If heaven isn't on earth, when and where did God change the location? Or has it just not existed since the beginning and it will exist again in the end?

In the end if it is the millennial reign, where do the people go after because the bible ends there? If we are there for eternity why is it called a 1,000 years?

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 06:16:09
Adam and Eve existed in heaven and when Cain was banished, he existed with another group of people outside. Did these people co-exists with Adam and Eve when they were in heaven and they were outside?

I think heaven exists on earth in the beginning.

In revelation people are co-existing with people that aren't in heaven as well, Revelation 22:15. Both these places, garden of Eden and revelation 22:15 had people existing outside of "heaven".

I think heaven exists on earth in the end. Is this the millennial reign?

If heaven isn't on earth, when and where did God change the location? Or has it just not existed since the beginning and it will exist again in the end?

In the end if it is the millennial reign, where do the people go after because the bible ends there? If we are there for eternity why is it called a 1,000 years?

Hi Bitter Sweet! 
We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places...

John 1:49-51 KJV
49.  Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50.  Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51.  And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon (GSN#1909 "epi" - "because of") the Son of man.

Revelation 12:7-9 KJV
7.  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8.  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9.  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 19:11 KJV
11.  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

2 Chronicles 6:1-3 KJV
1. Then said Solomon, The Lord hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2. But I have built an house of habitation for thee, and a place for thy dwelling for ever.
3. And the king turned his face, and blessed the whole congregation of Israel: and all the congregation of Israel stood.





Re: CHERUBIM AND SERAPHIM
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 07:44:28 PM »

Luke 12:25-32 KJV
25.  And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26.  If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27.  Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28.  If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29.  And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30.  For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31.  But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32.  Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

 

The simplest answer is that heaven is where God is. Paul speaks of being transported to the "third heaven", though whether in the body or out, he was not sure. Many times the bible speaks of heaven as being "up". But, we also know that, as Christians, God lives in us as well.

There are several "models" that men have come up with over the years; the Attic Model, the Interaction Model, the Way-Out Model, and the Dimensional model. Of those, the one that seems to make the most sense is the Dimensional Model - which basically states that there is at least one more spatial dimension than the three we know about, and that heaven is in this fourth dimension.

It is all speculative, and sometimes it is fun speculate, and as long as we remember that it is speculative and do not become dogmatic about it, it can remain fun.

Quote from: ChristNU on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 08:38:57
The simplest answer is that heaven is where God is. Paul speaks of being transported to the "third heaven", though whether in the body or out, he was not sure. Many times the bible speaks of heaven as being "up". But, we also know that, as Christians, God lives in us as well.

There are several "models" that men have come up with over the years; the Attic Model, the Interaction Model, the Way-Out Model, and the Dimensional model. Of those, the one that seems to make the most sense is the Dimensional Model - which basically states that there is at least one more spatial dimension than the three we know about, and that heaven is in this fourth dimension.

It is all speculative, and sometimes it is fun speculate, and as long as we remember that it is speculative and do not become dogmatic about it, it can remain fun.

How is that Yeshua can be "dogmatic" about it then? For he clearly states that he is IN HEAVEN even while he walked this earth in the flesh body of a man:

John 3:12-13 KJV
12.  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13.  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

How is it possible that the Son was in heaven?

Matthew 3:16-17
16. And Yeshua, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of the Theou descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17.  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And the prayer of the Master for us is for the same:

John 14:1-4 KJV
1.  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2.  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4.  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 17:13-26 KJV
13.  And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14.  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15.  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16.  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17.  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18.  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19.  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20.  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21.  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22.  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23.  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24.  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25.  O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26.  And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Not that we should be "taken out of the world" but that where HE IS we should be also. And Yeshua was IN HEAVEN even while upon the earth in his human bodily form because the Spirit of the Theou was upon him, O HOLY DAY! There is an absolute truth but it is found only in the Scripture and does not currently dwell among the counsels, dogmas, and traditions of men.

Ephesians 1:1-6 KJV
1.  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2.  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3.  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4.  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5.  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6.  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV
4.  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5.  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6.  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7.  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Being "dogmatic" concerning the Scripture is really what believing Yeshua and his doctrine is all about because he himself is the Word of YHWH. And to truly know YHWH for one single day may as well be a thousand years... 

Apparently you see as a dogmatic explanation of where heaven is in those scriptures, I do not. But, weeding through the  preponderance of scriptures you have quoted, they do seem to fit the "dimensional model" rather well.

Quote from: ChristNU on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 08:38:57
The simplest answer is that heaven is where God is. Paul speaks of being transported to the "third heaven", though whether in the body or out, he was not sure. Many times the bible speaks of heaven as being "up". But, we also know that, as Christians, God lives in us as well.

There are several "models" that men have come up with over the years; the Attic Model, the Interaction Model, the Way-Out Model, and the Dimensional model. Of those, the one that seems to make the most sense is the Dimensional Model - which basically states that there is at least one more spatial dimension than the three we know about, and that heaven is in this fourth dimension.

It is all speculative, and sometimes it is fun speculate, and as long as we remember that it is speculative and do not become dogmatic about it, it can remain fun.

You're right--it is speculative and it is fun!  I was reading a book by Hugh Ross, a Christian Physcist and he states that scientists believe there may be 11 dimensions.  Where they come up with (11) I do not know---but it is very interesting indeed.  Our whole concept of life is based on (3) dimensions, so who knows where Heaven truly is LOL---it may not even have "dimensions" as we know them.  As you say, it certainly is FUN to think about, even though it is all speculation. 

It's plural - heavens - all through Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.

A number of interesting books, from ancient times to the modern, have been written on the subject.  The explanation that is in vogue right now is that we all live in the troposphere of planet earth, above with is the ionosphere and a number of other different layers of our atmosphere, followed by 'outer space.'

But if you like, we could explore some others, from Enoch's 10 heavens to Copernicus' Celestial Spheres, to the Greek's aer and aether.  All of the theories say roughly the same thing when you boil it down, though.  We exist in heaven #1, here in the air.

Well... you didn't think we lived underground, did you?

Jarrod

In revelation 22, it warns not to add. Is speculation adding? We aren't supposed to have any graven images from heaven (is a cross a graven image?). Exodus 24, then 1 Corinthians 15:49 we bear a likeness of the man from heaven. Are we just supposed to bear the likeness of Jesus and we are in heaven on earth?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 12:49:49

But if you like, we could explore some others, from Enoch's 10 heavens to Copernicus' Celestial Spheres, to the Greek's aer and aether.  All of the theories say roughly the same thing when you boil it down, though.  We exist in heaven #1, here in the air.

Jarrod

This is simply put, I like it and agree with it.

That's where Jesus said he would meet us too, right?

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

the third heaven is where Jesus went when he ascended to heaven.

if the bible speaks of a third heaven there must be 2 more


Deuteronomy 10:14
14Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

the bible speaks of 3 heavens not 7.

lets read the bible   

is israel scattered in heaven where the Lord lives or is israel scattered on the earth


Deuteronomy 30:3-5

3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

the fowl  of the earth flies in the open firmament of heaven.

The children of Israel are promised the fulfillment of those same promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. When Paul writes of the Covenants, (plural) and the promises of Abraham in which the Church partakes he then by default includes the commandments and promises given to all Israel. The Covenants include those from Noah to Christ and everything in between. In fact the book of "Jasher" or "Yasher-The Upright" records that Abraham, after spending the first ten years of his life in a cave, was then raised up under the care of Noah himself, (they indeed were contemporaries according to the genealogies because Noah lived 350 years after the flood). The Covenant with "all flesh" given to Noah was passed directly to Abraham and the Covenant with Abraham was continued through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and transferred directly into the Mosaic Covenant. All of the Covenants are folded into Christ Yeshua who completes and fulfills all of them. NONE of them are "abolished" or obsolete.

Deuteronomy 11:7-21 KJV
7.  But your eyes have seen all the great acts of the Lord which he did.
8.  Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments which I command you this day, that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land, whither ye go to possess it;
9.  And that ye may prolong your days in the land, which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give unto them and to their seed, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
10.  For the land, whither thou goest in to possess it, is not as the land of Egypt, from whence ye came out, where thou sowedst thy seed, and wateredst it with thy foot, as a garden of herbs:
11.  But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
12.  A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.
13.  And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14.  That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15.  And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16.  Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17.  And then the Lord's wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the Lord giveth you.
18.  Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19.  And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20.  And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21.  That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.

Those who reject the Spirit of Torah will never see those days ~
Revelation 21 is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 11:21 ~
The "Days of Heaven upon the Earth" ~
Each in his own appointed time ~

Ezekiel 11:14-20 KJV
14.  Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
15.  Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the Lord: unto us is this land given in possession.
16.  Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary (HSN#4720 "miqdash"-chapel) in the countries where they shall come.
17.  Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18.  And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19.  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20.  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Original Strong's Ref. #4720
Romanized  miqdash
Pronounced mik-dawsh'
or miqqdash (Exo.15v17) {mik-ked-awsh'}; from HSN6942; a consecrated thing or place, especially, a palace, sanctuary (whether of YHWH or of idols) or asylum:
KJV--chapel, hallowed part, holy place, sanctuary.

Ephesians 2:11-13 KJV
11.  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12.  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13.  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 KJV
16.  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17.  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Revelation 21:1-6 KJV
1.  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2.  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3.  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4.  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5.  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6.  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:22 KJV
22.  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

"Thus saith 'Adonay YHWH; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel in the countries where they shall come"...

 

Howard says there are 3 heavens and the bible says that the old heaven and earth are going to pass away. Revelation isn't saying how many, just the old so should we even count the 3 anymore?

"each in his own appointed time" We all get their at our own time, some of us may already be in heaven?

"all things are become new" How do we view the new earth and heaven?

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 12:40:03

Quote from: ChristNU on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 08:38:57
The simplest answer is that heaven is where God is. Paul speaks of being transported to the "third heaven", though whether in the body or out, he was not sure. Many times the bible speaks of heaven as being "up". But, we also know that, as Christians, God lives in us as well.

There are several "models" that men have come up with over the years; the Attic Model, the Interaction Model, the Way-Out Model, and the Dimensional model. Of those, the one that seems to make the most sense is the Dimensional Model - which basically states that there is at least one more spatial dimension than the three we know about, and that heaven is in this fourth dimension.

It is all speculative, and sometimes it is fun speculate, and as long as we remember that it is speculative and do not become dogmatic about it, it can remain fun.

You're right--it is speculative and it is fun!  I was reading a book by Hugh Ross, a Christian Physcist and he states that scientists believe there may be 11 dimensions.  Where they come up with (11) I do not know---but it is very interesting indeed.  Our whole concept of life is based on (3) dimensions, so who knows where Heaven truly is LOL---it may not even have "dimensions" as we know them.  As you say, it certainly is FUN to think about, even though it is all speculation. 

You raise a good point, if heaven is infinite and eternal, the conceptualization of heaven as a "place", which would demand space/time parameters, would seem to be but another inadequate attempt of man to fit heaven into our own finite human understanding. If heaven is infinite and eternal, then does such allow for localization within space and time? Jesus did tell His disciples that He was "going to prepare a place for them" , but a dwelling-place "near to the heart of God" does not necessarily demand localization.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 08:34:10
Howard says there are 3 heavens and the bible says that the old heaven and earth are going to pass away. Revelation isn't saying how many, just the old so should we even count the 3 anymore?

"each in his own appointed time" We all get their at our own time, some of us may already be in heaven?

"all things are become new" How do we view the new earth and heaven?

The "heaven and the heaven of heavens" cannot contain YHWH 'Elohiym.
Yet has he chosen to dwell in Temples not made with hands:

Deuteronomy 10:12-14 KJV
12.  And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13.  To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
14.  Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

2 Chronicles 2:5-6 KJV
5.  And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
6.  But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

AGAIN  ~  THE PEOPLE ARE THE TEMPLE!  

2 Chronicles 6:1-3, 17-20 KJV
1.  Then said Solomon, The Lord hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
2.  But I have built an house of habitation for thee, and a place for thy dwelling for ever.
3.  And the king turned his face, and blessed the whole congregation of Israel: and all the congregation of Israel stood.
17.  Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.
18.  But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
19.  Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee:
20.  That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place.

Imagine for a moment that the most important heaven to YHWH is the mind and that the 'adamah-soil of the heart is an earthen altar, and the 'erets-land, (outer commons) is his footstool. Yet a little while and all things shall be put under the feet of Yeshua, for he must rule until all things be put under his feet. The Throne of YHWH is the mind and the One who searches the reins and hearts is Christ, (Rev.2:23). And the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and when death is destroyed IN YOU then shall the Son hand the kingdom over to the Father, (each in his appointed time) that YHWH be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 KJV
24.  THEN COMETH THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27.  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Nathanael indeed "saw" heaven opened: THEY ALL DID ~

John 20:20-22 KJV
20.  And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21.  Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22.  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Luke 24:44-45 KJV
44.  And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45.  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Luke 24:45 ASV
45.  Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;

It has nothing to do with a thousand-year millennial kingdom of flesh on worldwide planet earth as the dispensationalist teachers would like you to believe. However, it has everything to do with "the Days of Heaven upon the Earth" as stated on page one.

   

All the living creatures, the cattle, the creeping things, and beasts of the earth, and of the field; all of them came forth from "ha'erets" in the beginning which is the 'erets-land-world-earth. The same word is used from Genesis 1:1 through the text until Genesis 1:25. Yet Genesis Ch.1 stops short of stating anything about Man being created from the 'erets-land-earth. It is only in Genesis Ch.2 where we find what substance Man is created from, and it is "the dust from the 'adamah-soil-earth".

Genesis 1:1 KJV
1.  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (HSN#776 'erets).

Genesis 1:24 KJV
24.  And God said, Let the earth (HSN#776 'erets) bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth (HSN#776 'erets) after his kind: and it was so.

Original Strong's Ref. #776
Romanized  'erets
Pronounced eh'-rets
from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or, partitively, a land):
KJV--X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X natins, way, + wilderness, world.

However, in the following verse a new word for "earth" appears:

Genesis 1:25 KJV
25.  And God made the beast of the earth (HSN#776 'erets) after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth (HSN#127 'adamah) after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Why do we suddenly need two different words which appear on the surface to mean the same thing? Obviously then they do not mean the same thing because there are apparently "creeping things" which, according to Genesis 1:25, "creepeth UPON the 'adamah-soil-earth". Automatically therefore a red flag should be raised in the mind of the reader because immediately the 'Adamah is portrayed as INTERNAL SOIL and the 'Erets is portrayed as EXTERNAL LAND. And the name of Adam is the same word for Mankind, (HSN#120 'adam).

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7.  And the Lord God formed man (HSN#120 'adam) of the dust of the ground, (HSN#127 'adamah) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (HSN#120 'adam) became a living soul.

Original Strong's Ref. #120
Romanized  'adam
Pronounced aw-dawm'
from HSN0119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):
KJV--X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

Original Strong's Ref. #127
Romanized  'adamah
Pronounced ad-aw-maw'
from HSN0119; soil (from its general redness):
KJV--country, earth, ground, husband[-man] (-ry), land.

Genesis 2:7 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
7.  Wayiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam `apar min-ha'damah wayipach b'apayw nishmat chayiym wayhiy ha'adam lnepesh chayah.

Genesis 2:7
7. And formed YHWH 'Elohiym the man, (ha'adam) of dust from the soil, (ha'adamah) and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and became the man (ha'adam) into a nephesh-soul living.

These are the parameters from which the Scripture truly speaks of earth and soil, and we find that for the most part these truths are consistent throughout, (except in the places where we still have not yet understood the symbolism and true meanings in our walk with Christ). And one may not fully understand the Greek NT without at least some understanding of these concepts. For instance, we find in Exodus 20 given with the Decalogue, a commandment to build unto YHWH an ALTAR OF 'ADAMAH-SOIL. One will not fully understand what this means until he understands the teachings and doctrines of Yeshua because it was not explained until the Parable of the Sower, (the soil of the heart). The Altar of 'Adamah is "good and fertile soil" of the heart which Adam was created from in the very beginning.

Exodus 20:18-24 KJV
18.  And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19.  And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20.  And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21.  And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22.  And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23.  Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24.  An altar of earth (HSN#127 'adamah) thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

 

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 08:34:10
Howard says there are 3 heavens and the bible says that the old heaven and earth are going to pass away. Revelation isn't saying how many, just the old so should we even count the 3 anymore?

"each in his own appointed time" We all get their at our own time, some of us may already be in heaven?

"all things are become new" How do we view the new earth and heaven?

Job knew that one or more heavens would be gone when the Lord comes back ,
Job said till the heavens(plural) be no more.

Job 14:11-13)
11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!



John read Isaiah and said

Revelation 6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

take note that John and Job are on the same page because they both speak of the Lord's wrath

Isaiah said it first about the heavenss rolling back

Isaiah 34

1Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

this is why we will have a new heaven.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Fri Nov 04, 2011 - 08:34:10
Howard says there are 3 heavens and the bible says that the old heaven and earth are going to pass away. Revelation isn't saying how many, just the old so should we even count the 3 anymore?

"each in his own appointed time" We all get their at our own time, some of us may already be in heaven?

"all things are become new" How do we view the new earth and heaven?

the Lord said the earth abideth forever, so when he says a new earth we have to look for another understanding than the Lord creating a new earth.


Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.


also the Lord speaks of 3 heavens by the mouth of Paul.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


you don't read 4 or 7, you can't read 1 or 2 Paul speaks of a 3rd heaven which implies that there has to be a first and second heaven.

Thank you so much Daq and Howard, you both always give me more understanding!

Could our final revelation about heaven be when we realize that we are the gods Jesus speaks of? If we are one with Jesus then we would be one with God, on earth as it is in heaven. 

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 08:29:59
Thank you so much Daq and Howard, you both always give me more understanding!

Could our final revelation about heaven be when we realize that we are the gods Jesus speaks of? If we are one with Jesus then we would be one with God, on earth as it is in heaven.  

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

here is a little study for you

keep in mind when Jesus return to earth he will rule the earth for 1000 years

so we know from now until then we are still on the earth even a 1000 years after Jesus return

next

we have judgement day

then the Father rule when New Jersualem comes DOWN from heaven with the Father.

1. we have man on the earth when Jesus return
2. we have Jesus returning to earth to rule this man for a 1000 years
3. after the 1000 year rule of Jesus on earth we have judgement day and the Father coming down from heaven
to rule on the earth at thsi time there will be no flesh and blood.

at this time we are the gods Jesus speak of  

    on the earth which is a heaven also

lets read the words of Jesus


Psalm 132:12-14

12If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.

13For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

in Jerusaelm will the Father and Jesus rule

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 08:29:59
Thank you so much Daq and Howard, you both always give me more understanding!

Could our final revelation about heaven be when we realize that we are the gods Jesus speaks of? If we are one with Jesus then we would be one with God, on earth as it is in heaven. 

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Perhaps more like so Bitter Sweet ~
First the true saints will be cut down like a tree, like Nebuchadnezzar, cast into a great trial by fire, or thrown the lions' den, or suffer tribulation ten days like Daniel and his friends, and those who overcome will be those who did prepare themselves by getting to know the Word because the Word will give them what to say in that great day so that they might understand how it is and what it means to overcome, he that seeks to save his life shall loose it but he that shall be willing to give his life for Christ shall save it. And when the trial of testing is over, because every servant is tested before his Master puts him in charge of all his goods, then shall there be in that day a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. And you will know that ye are no gods, but like Daniel the prophet: Belshazzar will have been slain and you will understand that you are become "the third ruler of your kingdom"...

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 08:29:59
Thank you so much Daq and Howard, you both always give me more understanding!

Could our final revelation about heaven be when we realize that we are the gods Jesus speaks of? If we are one with Jesus then we would be one with God, on earth as it is in heaven. 

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Who are the one's spoken of 'as god's ?
" unto whom the word of God came."

To be/become " one with God and Jesus we have to learn to be/become OBEDIENT as can be seen from Heb.5v8,9. No obedience no eternal life !
Man is a long way off yet !

Quote from: Beta on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 12:25:52
Man is a long way off yet !

I can't generalize it, "each in his own appointed time." 

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 16:48:05

Quote from: Beta on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 12:25:52
Man is a long way off yet !

I can't generalize it, "each in his own appointed time." 

True ! But there has not been a resurrection YET .
Whenever that 'appointed time is .

I didn't read through all the post, but if this is heaven it sucks

Quote from: cs80918 on Sat Nov 26, 2011 - 17:02:12
... but if this is heaven it sucks

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

Quote from: cs80918 on Sat Nov 26, 2011 - 17:02:12
I didn't read through all the post, but if this is heaven it sucks

Don't worry...this is not heaven...yet.

It's more like HELL with the god of this world in charge still ! 2Cor.4v4; Rev.12v9; Eph.2v2.
It will become more like heaven when Christ returns and establishes the Kgd of God on earth. 

Quote from: howard on Sat Nov 05, 2011 - 17:55:51
the Lord said the earth abideth forever, so when he says a new earth we have to look for another understanding than the Lord creating a new earth.

Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

That's actually Solomon speaking, not God.  Ecclesiastes represents the best worldly wisdom in existence, which it then goes on to call 'vanity' and 'useless.'

So, this verse should not be represented as 'what God says about it.'  It isn't that.

Jarrod

Where is heaven?

It isn't here.

It isn't in the Lake of Fire.

It is where God's throne is, where God is.

In revelation it says that the whole earth will see heaven revealed in the heavens.  This is when people are still on the earth in their mortal bodies.

It is within people's view, but it is just hidden from us.

Okay let the criticizing and nit pickin begin about what I just said.  Enjoy