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  When we look at Rev chpt 4 & 5, we have a problem with our current understanding of the Trinity. The Christian ministry believes that it is 'The Father' sitting on the throne. Let us look at other scriptures;

1) The Son created all things, and it pleased The Father to let The Son do so.

2) The Son must reconcile His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom, unto The Father, so that God can be 'all-in-all'.

3) The Father (the INVISIBLE GOD) dwells in the light, that no man can enter. No man has seen The Father 'AT ANY TIME'.

4) Man has seen Christ sitting on the right hand of God.

5) Isaiah 44:6 identifies who OUR GOD, is.

6) Ephesians 4:6 and Rev 1:6 use the conjunction "AND" (it does not use the wording, "WHO IS...").

7) The Son was begotten before the world was (without mother). The Son as Christ, has a mother (As Son of Man, He is our 'brother').

8) Jesus stated, that He was looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, before the world was (The Lord God Almighty....the creator).

9) Revelation is the process of 'reconciliation by The Word', who is 'The Son'.

10) Christ states, "My Father and I are one."

Taking in to account the above, is it not true, that there is a difference between The Son as 'The Lord God Almighty' and The Son, as 'The Lamb' (the resurrected Son of Man)? Have we 'discarded' the Son, as The Lord God Almighty, and now believe, that The Son is 'locked in' as The Lamb, only?

I believe that The Lord's Prayer, Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, refer to THE SON. This would mean, that there are 'four figures', and not 'three'.

Your thoughts, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

My understanding of the trinity actually makes sense.  But I doubt that it is also "our" understanding. 

Thorwald said:

I believe that The Lord's Prayer, Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, refer to THE SON. This would mean, that there are 'four figures', and not 'three'.

Your thoughts, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Well, right off I'd say that you do have a problem with understanding the Holy Trinity.  'Cause if you believe there's FOUR figures and not three, that would be a Holy Quadrinity would it not?



God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, three persons in One, the Holy Trinity:  God OF man, God AS man, God IN man.

It ain't brain surgery, although some believe it would take a little surgery to understand it...............

I would submit that the understanding of the Trinity as stated in the ancient creeds is ok, as far as it goes but is expressed entirely wrongly.

One can only make sense of this if you look at this verse:

Deu 6:4  "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

In Hebrew: Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adoni echad.

Look at the last word - echad.  It means "one" but what kind of one?

Since Moses also wrote it here:

Gen 2:24  For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We can see clearly that it cannot be taken as an absolute singularity.  Rather it is used to mean a composite unity. The husband is not the same person as the wife, but together they make "one flesh." This is a covenantal understanding.

If the creeds had reflected this understanding, they would not be so apparently unbiblical to the Jews.

Please also note in the Deut. verse that God is mentioned 3 times: The Lord - Our God - The Lord.

They both sit on thrones. Father has his throne

Jesus spoke of his throne, his throne sits on the right hand of the Father.

The disciples wanted to sit with Jesus at his throne, but Jesus said that they asked a tough request.

Jesus spoke these words to the Pharisees and Scribes and this is also true about the Trinity as it is the doctrine of all Christians starting with the Roman Catholic Church. The doctrines were incorporated at the Council of Nicene in around 625 with Constantinople as Emperor and he was not a Christian. This is were the Nicene Creed was made up at.  You can not find salvation through the Church as the Catholics have put it that salvation comes through the Church. Evidently they forgot about the one and only living God. That is also were they came up with the Apostolic succession.

Now the scripture:
Look at verse 19 that is what all so called Christians are following today and has been every since the Church system came about through the Roman Catholics.

Mat 15:3  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Quote from: Legate on Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 17:50:57
Jesus spoke these words to the Pharisees and Scribes and this is also true about the Trinity as it is the doctrine of all Christians starting with the Roman Catholic Church. The doctrines were incorporated at the Council of Nicene in around 625 with Constantinople as Emperor and he was not a Christian. This is were the Nicene Creed was made up at.  You can not find salvation through the Church as the Catholics have put it that salvation comes through the Church. Evidently they forgot about the one and only living God. That is also were they came up with the Apostolic succession.

Now the scripture:
Look at verse 19 that is what all so called Christians are following today and has been every since the Church system came about through the Roman Catholics.

Mat 15:3  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Hello Legate,

The Council of Nicea was called in 325 by the Roman Emperor Constantine.  Not only that, but the Trinity was not defined at Nicea but at the Council of Constantinople in 360. 

Its solemn definition was not a new innovation at the Council of Constantinople. The term "Trinity" can be traced back much farther, to the writings of Origen and Tertullian (early 3rd century) and its concept even farther, to the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr, as early as 2nd century.  That's as early as extra-biblical writings come.

Much of your other "accusations" could be dealt with but they are off topic.  However let's look at the Bible verse that you quoted, as well as some context.

Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders?* They do not wash [their] hands when they eat a meal.

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 16:46:00

Quote from: Legate on Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 17:50:57
Jesus spoke these words to the Pharisees and Scribes and this is also true about the Trinity as it is the doctrine of all Christians starting with the Roman Catholic Church. The doctrines were incorporated at the Council of Nicene in around 625 with Constantinople as Emperor and he was not a Christian. This is were the Nicene Creed was made up at.  You can not find salvation through the Church as the Catholics have put it that salvation comes through the Church. Evidently they forgot about the one and only living God. That is also were they came up with the Apostolic succession.

Now the scripture:
Look at verse 19 that is what all so called Christians are following today and has been every since the Church system came about through the Roman Catholics.

Mat 15:3  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Hello Legate,

The Council of Nicea was called in 325 by the Roman Emperor Constantine.  Not only that, but the Trinity was not defined at Nicea but at the Council of Constantinople in 360. 

Its solemn definition was not a new innovation at the Council of Constantinople. The term "Trinity" can be traced back much farther, to the writings of Origen and Tertullian (early 3rd century) and its concept even farther, to the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr, as early as 2nd century.  That's as early as extra-biblical writings come.

Much of your other "accusations" could be dealt with but they are off topic.  However let's look at the Bible verse that you quoted, as well as some context.

Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders?* They do not wash [their] hands when they eat a meal.

As a Christian I must say blessed be the name of the Holy Trinity, Holy father, Holy Son, and the Holy Ghost. I have recently just got done reading a book called "The Jewish Trinity" by a Messianic Jew. Though I don't necessarily believe everything he writes in that book, he makes a pretty good argument in support of the OT Jewish writers all openly believing in the three persons of the Godhead, as Christians now believe. That is the only way that the Bible even makes any sense at all. And though Constantine was not a Christian the bishops and elders at the Council of Nicea were indeed Christians who had just come out of a very great and powerful persecution. Many of them still bore the scares of their sufferings for Christ, I would not begin to question their loyalty to Jesus Christ and the scriptures.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Oct 11, 2011 - 13:44:50
I would submit that the understanding of the Trinity as stated in the ancient creeds is ok, as far as it goes but is expressed entirely wrongly.

One can only make sense of this if you look at this verse:

Deu 6:4  "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

In Hebrew: Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adoni echad.

Look at the last word - echad.  It means "one" but what kind of one?

Since Moses also wrote it here:

Gen 2:24  For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We can see clearly that it cannot be taken as an absolute singularity.  Rather it is used to mean a composite unity. The husband is not the same person as the wife, but together they make "one flesh." This is a covenantal understanding.

If the creeds had reflected this understanding, they would not be so apparently unbiblical to the Jews.

Please also note in the Deut. verse that God is mentioned 3 times: The Lord - Our God - The Lord.

Trying to twist the Shema is futile Dave.

Accepting it in truth and finding it manifested through the NT will lead you to truth, however the triangular doctrine will need to be put down first.

But if you have ears that dont hear and eyes that cannot see what use is this message?

What did God say to Elijah after explaing their dull ears?

"Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged,  until the LORD has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken. And though a tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.

There is no twisting of the Shema. I do see that you resort to using polluted translations to justify your heresies.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

Notice the colon after the word Israel here. A colon in the English writing is always used to introduce a list. Echad is the Hebrew word used to denote a unity in purpose. The Godhead is a unified one. There is only one church. How many persons are in the one church?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
1st John 5:20

So can three people be one person? No, this defies logic. Three people can however, be united as one in purpose and position. There is one God, and that one God consists of three separate and individual persons.

Quote from: RobWLarson on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 18:06:09
There is no twisting of the Shema. I do see that you resort to using polluted translations to justify your heresies.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

Notice the colon after the word Israel here. A colon in the English writing is always used to introduce a list. Echad is the Hebrew word used to denote a unity in purpose. The Godhead is a unified one. There is only one church. How many persons are in the one church?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
1st John 5:20

So can three people be one person? No, this defies logic. Three people can however, be united as one in purpose and position. There is one God, and that one God consists of three separate and individual persons.

You are doing exactly as is expected from a TB.

You see Biblical Unitarians can read this verse (Deut 6:4) and accept what it is saying, without any qualification whatsoever.

That is, Yahweh is one in being, person, and authority in the Heavens.

Judaism understands this perfectly without qualification; however Trinitarians cannot accept the Shema without qualification, or adding a rider.   

This folly is demonstrated in your post and clear for all to see.

Rather than excepting the Shema as the Jews have done for thousands of years that Yahweh is in fact one; Christians have adopted Greek mythology to introduce  Yahweh as three.

But this again depends on the Trinitarian because some purport the Trinity is three and Yahweh is one, this appears to be the most convenient approach; one can distance themselves from the creeds definition, but not so far removed that one becomes a Unitarian.

So you will see a TB claim Unitarian Oneness with the qualification of Polytheism. 

But most like you are not able to articulate the trinity due to its many complexities.

Insight

Insight I have read many of your posts on you. Do you not deny the very deity of Jesus himself? Explain to me how in the OT God said "let us make man in our own image." Do you mean to tell me that God was talking to the angels? Are we made in the image of angels then? And what makes you think that the Jews do not understand and believe in the Trinity? I would offer this to you. Something to chew on here. The OT writers did indeed believe openly in the Trinity doctrine, and the Unitarian theology did not enter into Jewish thought until the inter-testamental time period. Why in the Psalms does David say "The Lord said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies your footstool"? Was David confused? Did he think God was had a habit of just talking to himself? no David said this because he understood the separate persons of the Godhead.
   You want to add the NT in with this sir? Ok the NT clearly shows the Trinity in all of his glory and majesty. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So who is the Word?  According to your heretical doctrine you would deny that this Word could possibly be Jesus Christ. But who was it that came in the flesh? It was God. "and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh..." Who was manifest in the flesh sir? It was GOD. And the Bible tells us that this teaching is without controversy.

Quote from: RobWLarson on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 20:00:03

Insight I have read many of your posts on you.

A mixed bag one would think?

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Do you not deny the very deity of Jesus himself?

Of course!

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Explain to me how in the OT God said "let us make man in our own image." Do you mean to tell me that God was talking to the angels? Are we made in the image of angels then?

Well done.

It can take many years to understand this truth – its odd, is it not, that in every occurrence of an angel appearing, they are always male and always human in appearance.  

Must be a coincidence – of course you would understand Eve was made in Adam's image! There is an important lesson hidden there Rob.

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And what makes you think that the Jews do not understand and believe in the Trinity?

Well, they entered a covenant with Yahweh at Sinai, and not a three headed beast.

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I would offer this to you. Something to chew on here. The OT writers did indeed believe openly in the Trinity doctrine, and the Unitarian theology did not enter into Jewish thought until the inter-testamental time period. Why in the Psalms does David say "The Lord said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies your footstool"? Was David confused? Did he think God was had a habit of just talking to himself? no David said this because he understood the separate persons of the Godhead.

I take you are speaking to Psalm 110:1?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

"Yahweh said unto my Adon."

Beautiful expression pointing forward to the other OT propehcies of the virgin birth. You may like to see Psa 22:9,10; 69:8; 89:26,27; 132:11; Gen 3:15; Pro 30:19; Isa 7:14; Jer 31:22; Mic 5:2 and many more upon request!

You may like to see Psalm 109:31

For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

David could foresee a dual occupancy of God's heavenly throne.

If you go over to Rev 3:21 Jesus who was the fufillment of Psalm 110:1; 109:31

To the one (Rob) who is victorious, I (Jesus) will give the right to sit with me (Jesus) on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Actually if you go through these passages you will see the continual emphasis of Christ being a firstfruit from Yahweh of many sons to come.

Here is another such example

For the Lamb (Jesus) at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.' And God (Yahweh) will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

And again...

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Can you see the dual occupancy of the throne?

Yahweh in His throne and Jesus exalted from flesh and blood to sit at the right hand side of the Father on high.

Therefore David, Like Yahweh could foresee a coming Son who would ascend David's throne; one established forever.

Of course, you know Jesus will hand this throne back to His Father once Yahweh has put all things under his feet.

But thats off the subject at hand

Insight

Quote from: RobWLarson on Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 01:11:48
As a Christian I must say blessed be the name of the Holy Trinity, Holy father, Holy Son, and the Holy Ghost. I have recently just got done reading a book called "The Jewish Trinity" by a Messianic Jew.

He's confussed - but dont worry it will all be sorted with the Master returns. His heart will be turned toward the fathers.

Quote

Though I don't necessarily believe everything he writes in that book,

So its part truth and part lies?

No what did Jesus say? but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

Good question my Lord and Master!

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he makes a pretty good argument in support of the OT Jewish writers all openly believing in the three persons of the Godhead, as Christians now believe.

As many apostate Christians believe.

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That is the only way that the Bible even makes any sense at all. And though Constantine was not a Christian

Brave of you to admit your forefather was a infidel! Very brave indeed.

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the bishops and elders at the Council of Nicea were indeed Christians who had just come out of a very great and powerful persecution.

Sorry, these Christians are the one who persecuted the true Christians - you have your wires crossed.

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Many of them still bore the scares of their sufferings for Christ, I would not begin to question their loyalty to Jesus Christ and the scriptures.

I suggest you look well beyond the Constantines Christianity to find the true believers, you will need to look hard, they were few in number.

But Yahweh has always kept a remnant Rom 11:5

Insight

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Oct 11, 2011 - 16:27:17
They both sit on thrones. Father has his throne

Jesus spoke of his throne, his throne sits on the right hand of the Father.

The disciples wanted to sit with Jesus at his throne, but Jesus said that they asked a tough request.

Define throne Biblically.  Yeah, it's a tough request.

Mr. Insight sir. I will now deal with your biggest heresy yet. I must warn you however, that I will be using the Authorized Version of the English Bible to prove my claim that Jesus is indeed God in the flesh and nothing less. Now let us not forget sir, that scripture is not left up for our own private interpretation. It says what it says. And God is not the author of confusion. Okay then lets get going shall we.

I shall start by proving the Godhood of Jesus.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1st Timothy 3:15.

You spoke of things that need to be revealed. Well the great mystery is here revealed. Who was manifest in the flesh? Simple question I should think. And let's not forget there is no debating the issue. Paul said without controversy...So again I ask who was manifest in the flesh?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not." John 1:1, 10-11

Again who is the Word in this passage? So he was in the beginning, he was with God, and what else was he? He came into the world, and according to this passage who made the world?

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:7-8

So again when did God die? We know that God was the only one who was in the beginning. "In the beginning God(Elohim, this is a plural)created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.

So who is Jesus? If he is not God then these scriptures lie. If these scriptures lie then you make God a liar. Is god a liar mr. Insight?

Quote from: RobWLarson on Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 15:36:06
Mr. Insight sir. I will now deal with your biggest heresy yet. I must warn you however, that I will be using the Authorized Version of the English Bible to prove my claim that Jesus is indeed God in the flesh and nothing less. Now let us not forget sir, that scripture is not left up for our own private interpretation. It says what it says. And God is not the author of confusion. Okay then lets get going shall we.

Sounds important.

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I shall start by proving the Godhood of Jesus.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1st Timothy 3:15.

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He* was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory

"vindicated by the spirit

How clever of you to use heretical perversions of scripture(NIV NET and whatever other demonic translation you like to use) to support your claims. You cleverly avoid simple questions to get around the scriptures. Of course Jesus was manifest in the flesh. He was a man. How is that a great mystery? I suppose if I were to convert to Islam I might give up the Trinitarian belief.

And what in the name of common sense is a TB? Sir I am not a TB or and Catholic or and protestant or any of that. I am simply a Christian, born of the Spirit of God.

Again so long as you refuse to use the Bible, and insist on using perverted texts I cannot have a discussion with you. Again I will ask you according to the Bible(Not the NIV or any other RV I mean the Word of God, the Holy Bible, the Authorized version)who was manifest in the flesh? And if not God then why is it a great mystery?

Quote from: RobWLarson on Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 23:55:56
How clever of you to use heretical perversions of scripture(NIV NET and whatever other demonic translation you like to use) to support your claims.

Interesting insight Rob.

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You cleverly avoid simple questions to get around the scriptures.

No I have exposed your error and now you are clearly frustrated.

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Of course Jesus was manifest in the flesh. He was a man. How is that a great mystery? I suppose if I were to convert to Islam I might give up the Trinitarian belief.

Yes many frustrated Christians say such things.  

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And what in the name of common sense is a TB?

1. Trinitarian Believer
2. Tuberculosis  

They are both illnesses

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Sir I am not a TB or and Catholic or and protestant or any of that. I am simply a Christian, born of the Spirit of God.

Again so long as you refuse to use the Bible, and insist on using perverted texts I cannot have a discussion with you. Again I will ask you according to the Bible(Not the NIV or any other RV I mean the Word of God, the Holy Bible, the Authorized version)who was manifest in the flesh? And if not God then why is it a great mystery?

Can you show me in your Bible where it states the AV is the only inspired Word of God - the perfect and pure version of God's Word.

Chapter, Book and verse.

Insight

p.s by the way I use the AV every day for study but as you would know the AV has some textual errors which other versions have corrected, although they too themselves have textual errors.  

Maybe we could use the Codex Sinaiticus?

Can you speak Greek?

Okay sir so going back to what the Bible actually says.

First of all I will accept being called a Trinitarian Believer. Sense I do believe in the Bible and I am a Christian believing in the Trinity would therefore come with the territory.

QuoteCan you show me in your Bible where it states the AV is the only inspired Word of God - the perfect and pure version of God's Word.

Chapter, Book and verse.

this is perhaps one of the dumbest things I have ever heard someone say. The AV is the only English Bible still used today that was translated out of the Textus Receptus.

Quoteby the way I use the AV every day for study but as you would know the AV has some textual errors which other versions have corrected, although they too themselves have textual errors. 

Maybe we could use the Codex Sinaiticus?

The Codex Sinaiticus? Even if I could read Greek why would I waste my time reading some perverted manuscript that was found in a trash can in a monastery? The only reason why you say the AV has errors in it, is because you believe that God was a liar when he said that he would preserve his Word. But the discussion of the AV is a thread I have started in this debate forum. So we can discuss that over there.

So again you have not answered a single one of my questions.

Quote from: RobWLarson on Wed Nov 09, 2011 - 01:46:50
Okay sir so going back to what the Bible actually says.

First of all I will accept being called a Trinitarian Believer. Sense I do believe in the Bible and I am a Christian believing in the Trinity would therefore come with the territory.

By definition you do not believe in the Bible.  To be accurate you believe in Creeds that purport to be based on the Bible.  You would not know the Doctrine of the Trinity if it were not for men like Plato and Constantine.

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this is perhaps one of the dumbest things I have ever heard someone say. The AV is the only English Bible still used today that was translated out of the Textus Receptus.

You didn't answer my question.

But here stated again for your consideration.

Are you able to provide a verse in the Bible that states the AV – is the preferred translation?

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The Codex Sinaiticus? Even if I could read Greek why would I waste my time reading some perverted manuscript that was found in a trash can in a monastery? The only reason why you say the AV has errors in it, is because you believe that God was a liar when he said that he would preserve his Word.

Ouch, it appears we struck a chord with Rob.  My what a sharp tongue you have...spoken like a true purest....a jot and tittle man I see.    

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So again you have not answered a single one of my questions.

Yes I know how that feels.

Sir I believe in the Trinity based on the Bible. I never even heard of the Nicean Creed until I came to seminary school and they were teaching church history. I never really read it all of the way through. I did not start believing in the Trinity because of a doctrinal statement. I believed in it when I first started reading the Bible and piecing things together. Which was many years before I ever became a Christian.

So yes I am a very blunt and straight froward man. So my tongue my be sharp. But that is also because I am not thin skinned. I love to discuss these issues and I don't get offended. But I do speak bluntly.

And the AV does not say the AV is the only English inspired word of God. So you see how I answered that question. Oh and before you ask me about the Shema. It says the Lord our God is one(echad not ychad)Lord. That means that there is one God. I'm glad we cleared that up. All Christians believe in one God. He is simply three persons.

Quote from: RobWLarson on Thu Nov 10, 2011 - 00:57:05

Sir I believe in the Trinity based on the Bible.

NO you believe in a creed which was meant to be based on the Bible.

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I never even heard of the Nicean Creed until I came to seminary school and they were teaching church history.

So you are without excuse now that you know the origin of your beliefs.

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I never really read it all of the way through. I did not start believing in the Trinity because of a doctrinal statement. I believed in it when I first started reading the Bible and piecing things together. Which was many years before I ever became a Christian.

Yes, from a child you have been subtly taught the Trinity – all good Catholics would admit to this.

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So yes I am a very blunt and straight froward man. So my tongue my be sharp. But that is also because I am not thin skinned. I love to discuss these issues and I don't get offended. But I do speak bluntly.

None harsher than the like of John the Baptist and Elijah!
It's a shame you don't share their understanding and teaching.

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And the AV does not say the AV is the only English inspired word of God. So you see how I answered that question. Oh and before you ask me about the Shema. It says the Lord our God is one(echad not ychad)Lord.

That means that there is one God. I'm glad we cleared that up. All Christians believe in one God. He is simply three persons.

Yes unlike John the Baptist and Elijah they would not need to qualify the Shema.  Sorry, I should place Jesus among his brethren who also quoted and understood the Shema.

In regards to echad http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/binity_shema1.html

Enjoy the read.

Insight

Insight---

Isn't it possible that the opposite of what you keep saying is true?  YOU are the one who has been TAUGHT
that the Trinity is not Biblical? Let me give an example.  The Jehovah's Witnesses have only been around since
1881.  Yet everyone in their "church" is TAUGHT that the Trinity is a monstrosity.  They believe that Christians
have been taught a false doctrine for hundreds of years---yet the JW's have only been around a little over a hundred
years themselves!

Because they cannot comprehend the doctrine of the Trinity with natural understanding, they therefore state it
is fiction.  And it all goes back to one Charles Taze Russell, who decided it was so.  One false teacher lead to literally
thousands of "witnesses" going door to door proclaiming Jesus is not God.  And they are the ones who have been taught this false doctrine, not the Christians they are trying to persuade otherwise.  One can go back to one Arius in 250 AD to see the origins of the theology you propose is the true one.

He was a heretic, just as Charles Taze Russell was a heretic, and just as the doctrine you are teaching is heresy also. There is nothing new about it--there have always been a few heretics who hold to what Arius taught those many years ago---it is just as much a doctrine that has been "passed down" through the ages as the doctrine of the Trinity has.  The difference is the Doctrine of the Trinity is Biblical and held by a huge majority of the church, as is the Divinity of Christ, while the Arian heresy with it's small following is unbiblical and rejected by almost every Biblical Scholar. Any true scholar knows exactly what John 1:1 teaches---only cults try to manipulate that verse to their own ends and to uphold their false teachings.

I just wanted to trow this in there Mr. Insight sir. I have never entered into a catholic service my entire life. So I am not a good catholic, because I am not a catholic. And the reason why the majority of Christian organizations believe in the Trinity is because the Bible states it as clear as day. There is absolutely no denying it.

No.

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The Mother has many daughters.

Insight

Oh so you are saying that the Christian church is the harlot? Interesting. The last time I heard speak that way they were possessed of a devil. In fact the only person I have ever met who was possessed. She said the church is apostate and going to hell. The daughter of the great whore of Revelation. Hmm just an insight.

Rob,

You would be one naive Christian to believe the many Christian religions of this age are in fact based on the true Gospel. 

One only needs to read the epistle to the Galatians to find that apostate teachings where entering the body.  Imagine 2000 years of corruption, power and greed, then centre your mind on the wealthiest religious organisation in the world. 

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Oh if you could see the harlot as God and Christ see her you would tremble before them.

Insight

You have a point. There are many cults who deny the deity of Christ and forsake the teaching of the Trinity. And there is only one church sir. That is the Christian church. We are not many bodies, but rather one. The name on the church building makes no difference, so long as the preaching is the gospel. It is the liars and the frauds who say "only my church can get you to heaven." "Only us very few will make it." In truth there are churches out there who have never heard of my church organization, and yet they teach and preach the exact same thing. It is the ones who preach a foreign doctrine that deny the Trinity, the Holy Ghost baptism, the born again experience, the life of holiness, the fullness of the Godhead that dwells in Christ bodily. These things are denied by the heretics. And there are many who deny them.

  You know, I have gone in search of a forum through which I may correspond in the word of our heavenly Father.

I have been a member of another forum for many years through which I have argued these same issues of doctrine.

After listening to the posts within this thread and this forum, it is apparent unto me that truly there is no difference and indeed the tares are mixed with the wheat.

The only problem it seems is that no person [under the banner of Christian] can tell the difference, only our Father which in heaven and He knows.

We argue and we condemn, but who are we to say, for as I read the words spoken in this thread, all I can detect is animosity and pride which are all the things that caused Satan to fall and Gods children to become blind.


Have we not learned anything?


Must we continually resort to the very weaknesses of heart and mind that caused all this ciaos to begin with?

Are we not brethren in the bosom of our blessed savior Christ?

Where in is the love and patients that He portrayed for His own upon the cross?

Truth of scripture must be upheld, but not at the expense of destroying your brother.




JTF

Quote from: RobWLarson on Sun Nov 13, 2011 - 16:46:48
You have a point.

Not I but Yahweh through His beloved Son passed it through angel to John at Patmos which found its way to me.  

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There are many cults who deny the deity of Christ and forsake the teaching of the Trinity.

The beast has long marginalised the true Christians.

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And there is only one church sir.

Sorry, one ecclesia or congregation, you have free will to place your confidence in bricks and mortar, or a banner of the RCC and her many daughters who have been influenced by her doctrines.
I can only warn.

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That is the Christian church. We are not many bodies, but rather one. The name on the church building makes no difference, so long as the preaching is the gospel.

This is perversion and its spirit is contrary to true Gospel as preached by the Apostles and Jesus Christ.

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It is the liars and the frauds who say "only my church can get you to heaven."

Now this is true for many meek and humble Bible students all over the world know the True Jesus Christ and I for one have spoken to them in numerous forums.

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"Only us very few will make it." In truth there are churches out there who have never heard of my church organization, and yet they teach and preach the exact same thing.

If the Trinity it at its roots it corrupt and has Greek metaphysics as its foundation and not truth.

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It is the ones who preach a foreign doctrine that deny the Trinity, the Holy Ghost baptism, the born again experience, the life of holiness, the fullness of the Godhead that dwells in Christ bodily. These things are denied by the heretics. And there are many who deny them.

The Apostle Paul was so accused of being part of a cult.  The Judaizers likewise branded people as you have done above, once again confirming their spirit and the extent people will go to uphold the doctrines of men and their many creeds.

Of course the same destruction which came upon those ignorant and stubborn Jews in AD70 will befall the Christian system in like manner.  Although this destruction will be unlike anything the earth has witnessed from the days of Noah.

To all TB's – do not blindly accept the creed without studying to show yourself approved – thus far few including Rob can demonstrate they divide the Word correctly or show the measure of wisdom to do so in love.

God bless your searching and don't forget to knock in truth and sincerity putting away all bias and misconception – only then will you find the true Gospel that saves.

Insight

QuoteSorry, one ecclesia or congregation, you have free will to place your confidence in bricks and mortar, or a banner of the RCC and her many daughters who have been influenced by her doctrines.

The church is not a building of sticks and bricks sir. I am speaking of the body of Christ.

QuoteNow this is true for many meek and humble Bible students all over the world know the True Jesus Christ and I for one have spoken to them in numerous forums.

I know many who worship the true and living God. As Thomas did when he fell at the feet of Jesus and proclaimed "my Lord and my God!" So I fall at the feet of Jesus and proclaim "My Lord and my God!"

QuoteIf the Trinity it at its roots it corrupt and has Greek metaphysics as its foundation and not truth.

Sounds like the same lame excuse that the apostate oneness churches use(they call themselves apostolic Pentecostals, but we disfellowshiped them when they turned from the truth).

Quotedo not blindly accept the creed without studying to show yourself approved – thus far few including Rob can demonstrate they divide the Word correctly or show the measure of wisdom to do so in love.

And here is another classic excuse for people who deny the scriptures and make up their own doctrines to explain away clear and unavoidable scriptures. Such as the undeniable fact that Jesus Christ is God the Son. And the Trinity is a clear and undeniable fact of scripture. So you can go ahead and study to shew thyself approved, but when you look for ways to excuse false and rejected doctrines, then you wrest the scripture to your own destruction.

But you are set in your errant ways. It seems there is no showing you the scripture, for you will only wrest it even more, until it says what you want it to say. This is a sad state to be in my friend. You are more than welcome to come back to the proper gospel of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, crucified for our transgressions, that the blood of the most holy God might wash you clean of all sin. This is the gospel message. To deny it is to deny the power of God to save you.

Quote from: RobWLarson on Sun Nov 13, 2011 - 19:50:31
The church is not a building of sticks and bricks sir. I am speaking of the body of Christ.

It is commonly understood the word Church is a corruption of the original Greek.  I will not be dogmatic on this other to say "church

Sir church is the English term for the Greek word. It means the same thing. The called out ones. That is really a pointless argument to try and prove and pointless misunderstanding. The church is not a building. Though a building may indeed be set aside for purpose of saints coming to gather for worship.

QuoteNow doubt it will be said also of the saints that we are Christ, not actual Christ but a beautiful manifestation of the original.

Moses, Angels and many others have been called God.

But you already knew that.

No angel accepts praise from a man, excepting that Angel is God himself. In the case of Abraham he saw God in the flesh appearing to him as a man. He spoke with God. And this is clearing God the Son, or the Word, as Jesus himself said no man hath seen the Father at any time.

We know by reading Hebrews in connection with the books of Moses that it is God the Holy Spirit who led the children in the wilderness, not the Father. Jesus told the disciples that he was going away. He told them he would send them another Comforter. That this Comforter would come from the Father and that he is the Spirit of truth. This Spirit of truth is clearly not the Father because the father sends him, as he also sent Jesus, and he is another Comforter, so he is not Jesus. So then who is the Holy Spirit? Ref, John 17

The speaking in tongues is not an error my friend. Jesus prophesied of it himself. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; They shall speak with new tongues; And they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18

Speaking in tongues seems to be another doctrine your throw out of the Bible because you do not understand it. The Bible is so full of Trinitarian language you would have to be blind not to see it.