Christian Forums

Quote from: Swiss_Guard on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 00:10:56

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 00:03:38
I will let others more patient than I to deal with your folly!

It appears you captain-less!

I doubt you will understand the phrase nor make the connection...but maybe one wiser than I could expound this for you.

You know, I think you'd be more comfortable with the Muslims over in THEIR forum. They're non-Trinitarians too.  Don't worry, no one here will miss you.

Swiss, this is the Non-Traditional Theology section maybe your above comment was not as approprate as you may first thought.

I will leave you with defining what it is that Jesus overcame and what it is he wants you to overcome.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

Insight   

You'll have to forgive me, the terminology "overcome" and "overcame" is not used in the Bible version that I commonly use.  I thought you had a particular verse in mind.  I wasn't trying to challenge you, I was just trying to understand where you were coming from so we could have a real conversation.

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 06:08:40
I will leave you with defining what it is that Jesus overcame and what it is he wants you to overcome.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

Insight   

We have three enemies, the world, the flesh and the devil.  I see justification in the Bible that Jesus overcame the world and the devil. John 16:33 quotes Jesus has overcome "the world".  That is the only thing that the Bible says that Jesus overcame.  I can see some justification that Jesus overcame the devil, and the sins of others, but nothing that says Jesus overcame "sinful flesh".

Surely we are to overcome our own fallen nature, but that does not imply, even with Rev. 3:21, that Jesus did also.  It says that Jesus overcame, and we must also, but it does not say what Jesus overcame and that we must also only overcome those things, but simply that we must overcome and Jesus will grant that we sit upon his throne.

In that verse it does not make sense that, if Jesus is just as one of us, that it would be Jesus who would grant that we sit upon His throne.  I'd assume that if Jesus were just another one of us, that it would be God who would allow us to sit upon the throne God made for men.  Jesus seems to have some authority to grant that someone sit upon this throne.

Do you have any verse that more directly suggests that Jesus overcame sinful flesh?

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 06:08:40

Quote from: Swiss_Guard on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 00:10:56

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 00:03:38
I will let others more patient than I to deal with your folly!

It appears you captain-less!

I doubt you will understand the phrase nor make the connection...but maybe one wiser than I could expound this for you.

You know, I think you'd be more comfortable with the Muslims over in THEIR forum. They're non-Trinitarians too.  Don't worry, no one here will miss you.

Swiss, this is the Non-Traditional Theology section maybe your above comment was not as approprate as you may first thought.

I will leave you with defining what it is that Jesus overcame and what it is he wants you to overcome.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

Insight   

Denying the Divinity of Christ is beyond just "non-Traditional"; it's non-Christian.

And that quote you provided doesn't define anything; it simply says that Jesus overcame something----it doesn't say what it is.

Quote from: Swiss_Guard on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 08:44:53

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 06:08:40

Quote from: Swiss_Guard on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 00:10:56

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 00:03:38
I will let others more patient than I to deal with your folly!

It appears you captain-less!

I doubt you will understand the phrase nor make the connection...but maybe one wiser than I could expound this for you.

You know, I think you'd be more comfortable with the Muslims over in THEIR forum. They're non-Trinitarians too.  Don't worry, no one here will miss you.

Swiss, this is the Non-Traditional Theology section maybe your above comment was not as approprate as you may first thought.

I will leave you with defining what it is that Jesus overcame and what it is he wants you to overcome.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

Insight  

Denying the Divinity of Christ is beyond just "non-Traditional"; it's non-Christian.

And that quote you provided doesn't define anything; it simply says that Jesus overcame something----it doesn't say what it is.

It appears you are the self appointed gatekeeper here Swiss.

Maybe you would like to define Rev 3:21

What do we need to overcome________________
What did Jesus overcome__________________

We could play a game of hangman if it would help?

Insight

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 07:40:18
You'll have to forgive me, the terminology "overcome" and "overcame" is not used in the Bible version that I commonly use.  I thought you had a particular verse in mind.  I wasn't trying to challenge you, I was just trying to understand where you were coming from so we could have a real conversation.

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 06:08:40
I will leave you with defining what it is that Jesus overcame and what it is he wants you to overcome.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

Insight  

We have three enemies, the world, the flesh and the devil.  I see justification in the Bible that Jesus overcame the world and the devil. John 16:33 quotes Jesus has overcome "the world".  That is the only thing that the Bible says that Jesus overcame.  I can see some justification that Jesus overcame the devil, and the sins of others, but nothing that says Jesus overcame "sinful flesh".

Surely we are to overcome our own fallen nature, but that does not imply, even with Rev. 3:21, that Jesus did also.  It says that Jesus overcame, and we must also, but it does not say what Jesus overcame and that we must also only overcome those things, but simply that we must overcome and Jesus will grant that we sit upon his throne.

In that verse it does not make sense that, if Jesus is just as one of us, that it would be Jesus who would grant that we sit upon His throne.  I'd assume that if Jesus were just another one of us, that it would be God who would allow us to sit upon the throne God made for men.  Jesus seems to have some authority to grant that someone sit upon this throne.

Do you have any verse that more directly suggests that Jesus overcame sinful flesh?

Since therefore Catholica shares in flesh and blood, Jesus himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death Jesus might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil

Please show me a verse that descibes exactly what has the power of death? In finding this you will define the devil!

and deliver Catholica who through fear of death is subject to lifelong slavery. 16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. Heb 2:14-18

How did Jesus help the fleshly offspring of Abraham?
How was Jesus "made" like his brothers?
How is Jesus able to atone for mankind sins?
How did Jesus suffer when he was tempted?
If he suffered in his temptations, exactly like us what nature did he partake off?

Let see how honest and open you are to God's Word.

If you have the overwhleming feeling to explain this section of scripture becuase the truth is to hard to except maybe you could consider Heb 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

In what way was Jesus tempted?
For these temptations to take place what nature did he inherit from his mother?
Why do you think Jesus needed to have this nature?

God Bless

Insight

QuoteWhat do we need to overcome________________
What did Jesus overcome________________

We are to overcome the world,
He overcame the world.

Jesus was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights by the devil. This is all recorded in scripture. No one says he was not a man. He still is a man. What you fail to understand is that Jesus was God before he became a man, and he is still God.

God was manifest in the flesh. That is as clear as it gets my friend.

>>>In what way was Jesus tempted?
For these temptations to take place what nature did he inherit from his mother?
Why do you think Jesus needed to have this nature? <<<<

Adam and Eve were without sinful nature, yet tempted weren't they Insight? Does one have to have a sinful nature to be tempted?

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:46:09
>>>In what way was Jesus tempted?
For these temptations to take place what nature did he inherit from his mother?
Why do you think Jesus needed to have this nature? <<<<

Adam and Eve were without sin, yet tempted weren't they Insight? Does one have to have a sinful nature to be tempted?

Was Adam or Eve born of a woman (sinful)?

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:48:27

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:46:09
>>>In what way was Jesus tempted?
For these temptations to take place what nature did he inherit from his mother?
Why do you think Jesus needed to have this nature? <<<<

Adam and Eve were without sin, yet tempted weren't they Insight? Does one have to have a sinful nature to be tempted?

Was Adam or Eve born of a woman (sinful)?

That's not the question.  Can a person without a sinful nature be tempted?  The answer is yes, they can.  Adam and Eve were sinless and yet they were both tempted to sin.  You are implying a person must have a fallen nature just like us in order to be tempted--that is untrue.

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:50:55

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:48:27

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:46:09
>>>In what way was Jesus tempted?
For these temptations to take place what nature did he inherit from his mother?
Why do you think Jesus needed to have this nature? <<<<

Adam and Eve were without sin, yet tempted weren't they Insight? Does one have to have a sinful nature to be tempted?

Was Adam or Eve born of a woman (sinful)?

That's not the question.  Can a person without a sinful nature be tempted?  The answer is yes, they can.  Adam and Eve were sinless and yet they were both tempted to sin.  You are implying a person must have a fallen nature just like us in order to be tempted--that is untrue.

Dont run Fish

Was Adam or Eve born of a woman (sinful)?

Answer the question.

Adam was born of the earth, without sin, but as a free moral agent. Eve was born of Adam, from his rib, without sin as a free moral agent.

Quote from: RobWLarson on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 19:05:14
Adam was born of the earth, without sin, but as a free moral agent. Eve was born of Adam, from his rib, without sin as a free moral agent.

Thank you Rob.

Would you be so brave as to explain how Jesus was born.

What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous? Job 15:4

And

How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Job 25:4

These verse's may help you.

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:52:22

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:50:55

Quote from: Insight on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:48:27

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:46:09
>>>In what way was Jesus tempted?
For these temptations to take place what nature did he inherit from his mother?
Why do you think Jesus needed to have this nature? <<<<

Adam and Eve were without sin, yet tempted weren't they Insight? Does one have to have a sinful nature to be tempted?

Was Adam or Eve born of a woman (sinful)?

That's not the question.  Can a person without a sinful nature be tempted?  The answer is yes, they can.  Adam and Eve were sinless and yet they were both tempted to sin.  You are implying a person must have a fallen nature just like us in order to be tempted--that is untrue.

Dont run Fish

Was Adam or Eve born of a woman (sinful)?

Answer the question.

Insight---

It doesn't matter.  The point is they were created without sin----and yet they were tempted to sin.  Jesus was born with a sinless nature by the Holy Spirit----He was tempted in all things as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN.   You are trying to state that Jesus was tempted because he was born with the same nature we are---that is not true---whether Adam was created, or born of a woman does not matter-----he was without sin,  and he was tempted, and fell.  This proves a person without a sin nature can be tempted--Jesus was WITHOUT SIN and yet tempted, but he did not possess the same fallen nature we have.  You are attempting to derail that fact---and you cannot.

Fish,

Your understanding will only take you so far and then you conclude "it doesn't matter".  If you were sitting in my chair typing this response immediately you would feel a strong sense of disappointment as it is dawns on you, this person has denied the very essence of Jesus nature in which God reconciled the whole world.  

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 10:14:33

Insight---

It doesn't matter.  

Oh it is essential Fish.

You must ask more of the Word - like why did Jesus need to share in our fallen nature? What possible reasons could there be for God having His Son born of an unclean woman in the line of Adam, Abraham & David. You need to ask wheat exactly did God achieve in Jesus' flesh nature that allows you to now be saved.

Quote

The point is they were created without sin----and yet they were tempted to sin.  

What you have said is true.

Quote

Jesus was born with a sinless nature by the Holy Spirit

Show me a quote - every verse I have revealed to you states clearly Jesus had a fallen nature exactly like his brothers in every respect.

Quote

----He was tempted in all things as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN.  

Again, this is true - he was without any moral sin of his own but exactly how did God view his nature? Teach me about the Fathers need to stake His son to a Cross - why dramatically placard his Sons body of flesh for all the world to see?

Go deeper into the Word Fish and find the hidden tresures of God and not doctrines of men.

Quote

You are trying to state that Jesus was tempted because he was born with the same nature we are---that is not true---

While this is true Jesus was tempted in that he shared our flesh and blood nature for God who is Spirit cannot be tempted (at all).

When Mary gave birth to Jesus was he her son? was he born of a woman? Was he ever called Son of Man? What does Son of Man mean to yo Fish?

That Jesus was like us but only pretending to be the representation of fallen man?

Forget about your ill feeling towards me - you ask the questions of God's Word for yourself.

Quote

whether Adam was created, or born of a woman does not matter-----he was without sin,  and he was tempted, and fell.  

When one gets into this explaining away mind set you can cause yourself a great deal of hurt - using terms like "does not matter" when speaking about God's Holy Word is very dangerous.

Enough said.

Quote

This proves a person without a sin nature can be tempted--Jesus was WITHOUT SIN and yet tempted, but he did not possess the same fallen nature we have.  You are attempting to derail that fact---and you cannot.

Not attempting to derail anything but show you how Jesus was the full representation of fallen man, who was made like his brothers in every respect, born of a sinful woman, suffered all the fralities of the flesh was a real living man who was held under the dominion of death all his days until he broke the emnity in his flesh destroy sins power whcih was latent in his nature.

For what does this mean to you.

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners (how?), so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. (Romans 5:15)

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned (Romans 5:12)

Fish.

Why do we die?

There are only two answers.

1.

2.

God Bless

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 20:38:27
Fish,

Your understanding will only take you so far and then you conclude "it doesn't matter".  If you were sitting in my chair typing this response immediately you would feel a strong sense of disappointment as it is dawns on you, this person has denied the very essence of Jesus nature in which God reconciled the whole world.  

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 10:14:33

Insight---

It doesn't matter.  

Oh it is essential Fish.

You must ask more of the Word - like why did Jesus need to share in our fallen nature? What possible reasons could there be for God having His Son born of an unclean woman in the line of Adam, Abraham & David. You need to ask wheat exactly did God achieve in Jesus' flesh nature that allows you to now be saved.

Quote

The point is they were created without sin----and yet they were tempted to sin.  

What you have said is true.

Quote

Jesus was born with a sinless nature by the Holy Spirit

Show me a quote - every verse I have revealed to you states clearly Jesus had a fallen nature exactly like his brothers in every respect.

Quote

----He was tempted in all things as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN.  

Again, this is true - he was without any moral sin of his own but exactly how did God view his nature? Teach me about the Fathers need to stake His son to a Cross - why dramatically placard his Sons body of flesh for all the world to see?

Go deeper into the Word Fish and find the hidden tresures of God and not doctrines of men.

Quote

You are trying to state that Jesus was tempted because he was born with the same nature we are---that is not true---

While this is true Jesus was tempted in that he shared our flesh and blood nature for God who is Spirit cannot be tempted (at all).

When Mary gave birth to Jesus was he her son? was he born of a woman? Was he ever called Son of Man? What does Son of Man mean to yo Fish?

That Jesus was like us but only pretending to be the representation of fallen man?

Forget about your ill feeling towards me - you ask the questions of God's Word for yourself.

Quote

whether Adam was created, or born of a woman does not matter-----he was without sin,  and he was tempted, and fell.  

When one gets into this explaining away mind set you can cause yourself a great deal of hurt - using terms like "does not matter" when speaking about God's Holy Word is very dangerous.

Enough said.

Quote

This proves a person without a sin nature can be tempted--Jesus was WITHOUT SIN and yet tempted, but he did not possess the same fallen nature we have.  You are attempting to derail that fact---and you cannot.

Not attempting to derail anything but show you how Jesus was the full representation of fallen man, who was made like his brothers in every respect, born of a sinful woman, suffered all the fralities of the flesh was a real living man who was held under the dominion of death all his days until he broke the emnity in his flesh destroy sins power whcih was latent in his nature.

For what does this mean to you.

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners (how?), so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. (Romans 5:15)

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned (Romans 5:12)

Fish.

Why do we die?

There are only two answers.

1.

2.

God Bless

Insight

Insight--

You said:

>>>Show me a quote - every verse I have revealed to you states clearly Jesus had a fallen nature exactly like his brothers in every respect.<<<

"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.  But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?

Quote from: RobWLarson on Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 18:45:51
God was manifest in the flesh. That is as clear as it gets my friend.

Yeowser, specifically ...
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6
John 1:1 and 14, 1 Timothy 3:16

Proving Scripture claims that Jesus Christ was/is God is mere child's play.
Proving Scripture claims the Holy Spirit was/is God is not nearly as easy.

But, this is not the reason why many do not believe in the Trinity.

Belief in the Trinity comes via possible sources:
1) being born into a particular family, culture, etc. (i.e. blind faith)
2) being given a revelation from God about it

One can believe via one or both of these sources.
Some have experienced one or both of these, but do not believe.
Ever heard of Satan and his demons?

This is for everyone ...
Who do you mostly listen to ... the Holy Spirit or demons?
Hey, don't laugh.

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 21:57:07
Insight---

Don't you understand? John does not look upon Jesus as a sinner---in fact he doesn't even want to baptize Jesus saying "I need to be baptized by you, and you come to me?"  Jesus says "Let it be so now.."-----Jesus acknowledges he needs no baptism----but is baptized "to fulfill all righteousness".   

Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 17:40:52

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 21:57:07
Insight---

Don't you understand? John does not look upon Jesus as a sinner---in fact he doesn't even want to baptize Jesus saying "I need to be baptized by you, and you come to me?"  Jesus says "Let it be so now.."-----Jesus acknowledges he needs no baptism----but is baptized "to fulfill all righteousness".  

Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

Insight

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

Insight: "Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

That is a great question that troubled the early church profoundly and which is still current:
How reconcile the personality of Jesus with this act of humiliation? How harmonize the virgin birth
with the baptism?

How could Jesus be begotten of the Holy Spirit and yet need here in the Jordon the descent of the Spirit?
Why should He, who was and is God, submit to John's baptism?
How relate this humble action with His claims of preeminence?
How reconcile the great mission of Jesus as Saviour with the acceptance of baptism st the hands of
another religious figure as if He Himself needed salvation?
How reconcile the claims of Jesus and the New Testament writers that He lived a sinless life with His
deliberate acceptance of this baptism of John which was "of repentance unto remission of sins"?

John did not present Jesus publicly to the multitudes as the Messiah.
He left Jesus to pursue His own method of self-revelation.

Did Jesus declare at the Jordon the first decisive step leaving behind Him home ties and setting forth with
"no place to lay His head"?
With His great mission before Him this baptism marked the complete dedication of Jesus to His task.
Baptism is a complete surrender of body, mind, and soul---a burial and a resurrection.
His baptism set forth His absolute devotion to His lifework.
Jesus was baptized in obedience to the will of God.
"To fulfill all righteousness" can well be rendered, "to leave nothing undone that had been revealed as the
righteous will of God."

I believe His baptism by John begins the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-27, but that is another can of worms....

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 10:12:59

Quote from: Insight on Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 17:40:52

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 21:57:07
Insight---

Don't you understand? John does not look upon Jesus as a sinner---in fact he doesn't even want to baptize Jesus saying "I need to be baptized by you, and you come to me?"  Jesus says "Let it be so now.."-----Jesus acknowledges he needs no baptism----but is baptized "to fulfill all righteousness".  

Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

Insight

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

This fails to acknowlege why Jesus was born of a woman and why he was required to be baptised.

John the Batists message was The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

Cmp

And Jesus answering said unto him, Permit it to be so NOW!: for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he permitted him. Matt 3:15

I can lead you to truth but if one resists who is responsible?

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 16:31:57

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 10:12:59

Quote from: Insight on Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 17:40:52

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 21:57:07
Insight---

Don't you understand? John does not look upon Jesus as a sinner---in fact he doesn't even want to baptize Jesus saying "I need to be baptized by you, and you come to me?"  Jesus says "Let it be so now.."-----Jesus acknowledges he needs no baptism----but is baptized "to fulfill all righteousness".  

Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

Insight

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

This fails to acknowlege why Jesus was born of a woman and why he was required to be baptised.

John the Batists message was The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

Cmp

And Jesus answering said unto him, Permit it to be so NOW!: for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he permitted him. Matt 3:15

I can lead you to truth but if one resists who is responsible?

Insight

Insight---

It explains specically why Jesus was baptized.  Jesus was born of a woman (a Virgin through the Holy Spirit) so that he might take on human form.  He took on our weakness and frailty--he had a human nature---but he was sinless. He was born a man, but not with a fallen nature.

When He was baptized he fulfilled the requirements of the Law for a High Priest.  He was tempted in all points as we are YET WITHOUT SIN.  He can therefore PERFECTLY represent us in Heaven.  He is both GOD and MAN, and is therefore the ONLY MEDIATOR between GOD and MEN.

What do you mean you can lead me to truth?  You brush away the truth like dust so you can keep your own theology.  I've answered the question regarding baptism and you simply brush it off because it doesn't fit with what you believe.   Jesus is God the Son Insight.  You refuse to believe that despite all that you are shown. As Jesus said to the pharisees "Let the blind lead the blind..."  It's just too bad, because you have the perfect opportunity to see.

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 16:43:58

Quote from: Insight on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 16:31:57

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 10:12:59

Quote from: Insight on Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 17:40:52

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 21:57:07
Insight---

Don't you understand? John does not look upon Jesus as a sinner---in fact he doesn't even want to baptize Jesus saying "I need to be baptized by you, and you come to me?"  Jesus says "Let it be so now.."-----Jesus acknowledges he needs no baptism----but is baptized "to fulfill all righteousness".  

Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

Insight

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

This fails to acknowlege why Jesus was born of a woman and why he was required to be baptised.

John the Batists message was The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

Cmp

And Jesus answering said unto him, Permit it to be so NOW!: for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he permitted him. Matt 3:15

I can lead you to truth but if one resists who is responsible?

Insight

Insight---

It explains specically why Jesus was baptized.  Jesus was born of a woman (a Virgin through the Holy Spirit) so that he might take on human form.  He took on our weakness and frailty--he had a human nature---but he was sinless. He was born a man, but not with a fallen nature.

When He was baptized he fulfilled the requirements of the Law for a High Priest.  He was tempted in all points as we are YET WITHOUT SIN.  He can therefore PERFECTLY represent us in Heaven.  He is both GOD and MAN, and is therefore the ONLY MEDIATOR between GOD and MEN.

What do you mean you can lead me to truth?  You brush away the truth like dust so you can keep your own theology.  I've answered the question regarding baptism and you simply brush it off because it doesn't fit with what you believe.   Jesus is God the Son Insight.  You refuse to believe that despite all that you are shown. As Jesus said to the pharisees "Let the blind lead the blind..."  It's just too bad, because you have the perfect opportunity to see.

Your failure to once more honestly address how Jesus in himself (i.e in his nature)  demonstrated that ALL flesh is grass and that ALL righteousness must be fulfilled in him astounds me Fish.

Clearly the baptism of Jesus is unknown to you!

Maybe you should go away and study Luke 12:50 and maybe you might begin to understand his baptism.

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 18:20:59

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 16:43:58

Quote from: Insight on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 16:31:57

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 10:12:59

Quote from: Insight on Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 17:40:52

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 21:57:07
Insight---

Don't you understand? John does not look upon Jesus as a sinner---in fact he doesn't even want to baptize Jesus saying "I need to be baptized by you, and you come to me?"  Jesus says "Let it be so now.."-----Jesus acknowledges he needs no baptism----but is baptized "to fulfill all righteousness".  

Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

Insight

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

This fails to acknowlege why Jesus was born of a woman and why he was required to be baptised.

John the Batists message was The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

Cmp

And Jesus answering said unto him, Permit it to be so NOW!: for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he permitted him. Matt 3:15

I can lead you to truth but if one resists who is responsible?

Insight

Insight---

It explains specically why Jesus was baptized.  Jesus was born of a woman (a Virgin through the Holy Spirit) so that he might take on human form.  He took on our weakness and frailty--he had a human nature---but he was sinless. He was born a man, but not with a fallen nature.

When He was baptized he fulfilled the requirements of the Law for a High Priest.  He was tempted in all points as we are YET WITHOUT SIN.  He can therefore PERFECTLY represent us in Heaven.  He is both GOD and MAN, and is therefore the ONLY MEDIATOR between GOD and MEN.

What do you mean you can lead me to truth?  You brush away the truth like dust so you can keep your own theology.  I've answered the question regarding baptism and you simply brush it off because it doesn't fit with what you believe.   Jesus is God the Son Insight.  You refuse to believe that despite all that you are shown. As Jesus said to the pharisees "Let the blind lead the blind..."  It's just too bad, because you have the perfect opportunity to see.

Your failure to once more honestly address how Jesus in himself (i.e in his nature)  demonstrated that ALL flesh is grass and that ALL righteousness must be fulfilled in him astounds me Fish.

Clearly the baptism of Jesus is unknown to you!

Maybe you should go away and study Luke 12:50 and maybe you might begin to understand his baptism.

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Insight

Insight---

Your utter refusal to accept what is scriptural astounds me.  Once again---here is why Jesus was baptized. You can say the baptism is unknown to me all you want.  Your problem is---this is correct---it is staring you in the face---but you REFUSE to accept it:

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 18:55:55

Quote from: Insight on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 18:20:59

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 16:43:58

Quote from: Insight on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 16:31:57

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 10:12:59

Quote from: Insight on Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 17:40:52

Quote from: fish153 on Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 21:57:07
Insight---

Don't you understand? John does not look upon Jesus as a sinner---in fact he doesn't even want to baptize Jesus saying "I need to be baptized by you, and you come to me?"  Jesus says "Let it be so now.."-----Jesus acknowledges he needs no baptism----but is baptized "to fulfill all righteousness".  

Explain why Jesus was required to be baptised?

Insight

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

This fails to acknowlege why Jesus was born of a woman and why he was required to be baptised.

John the Batists message was The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

Cmp

And Jesus answering said unto him, Permit it to be so NOW!: for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he permitted him. Matt 3:15

I can lead you to truth but if one resists who is responsible?

Insight

Insight---

It explains specically why Jesus was baptized.  Jesus was born of a woman (a Virgin through the Holy Spirit) so that he might take on human form.  He took on our weakness and frailty--he had a human nature---but he was sinless. He was born a man, but not with a fallen nature.

When He was baptized he fulfilled the requirements of the Law for a High Priest.  He was tempted in all points as we are YET WITHOUT SIN.  He can therefore PERFECTLY represent us in Heaven.  He is both GOD and MAN, and is therefore the ONLY MEDIATOR between GOD and MEN.

What do you mean you can lead me to truth?  You brush away the truth like dust so you can keep your own theology.  I've answered the question regarding baptism and you simply brush it off because it doesn't fit with what you believe.   Jesus is God the Son Insight.  You refuse to believe that despite all that you are shown. As Jesus said to the pharisees "Let the blind lead the blind..."  It's just too bad, because you have the perfect opportunity to see.

Your failure to once more honestly address how Jesus in himself (i.e in his nature)  demonstrated that ALL flesh is grass and that ALL righteousness must be fulfilled in him astounds me Fish.

Clearly the baptism of Jesus is unknown to you!

Maybe you should go away and study Luke 12:50 and maybe you might begin to understand his baptism.

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Insight

Insight---

Your utter refusal to accept what is scriptural astounds me.  Once again---here is why Jesus was baptized. You can say the baptism is unknown to me all you want.  Your problem is---this is correct---it is staring you in the face---but you REFUSE to accept it:

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).
Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. (the annointing with oil is a type of being annointed with the Holy Spirit--and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus when  he was baptized).

**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

Ok.

What qualified Jesus' priesthood? What did he need to be to become an affective High Priest?

Insight

Quote from: fish153 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 18:55:55
**John did not want to baptize Jesus---and John said he should be the one being baptized.  Jesus said "suffer it to be so now so that we may fulfill all righteousness". He was acknowledging that he did not need to be baptized in repentance, but wanted John to do so to fulfill the requirements of the Law for becoming our Great High Priest.

When Jesus gently rebuked John for resisting his baptism he said "It becometh us

And maybe after you have discovered the true meaning of his baptism the following will become evident.

"I have need

Insight--

This is useless.  Your whole agenda on this board---every thread you start---every conversation you engage in is based on either why the Trinity doesn't exist, or why Jesus is not God.  You refuse to listen to very clear presentations of scripture which show clearly that Jesus was God Incarnate.  It is a ping-pong game with you----when you are faced with scripture which shows how off-base you are, you ignore it and proceed in another direction in an attempt to justify your position.  As I said, this is useless conversation. I shouldn't even continue as long as I have in discussions with a heretic-----I just hoped that you might possibly listen. It is clear now that you will not. 

Quote from: Insight on Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 17:02:43
Any idiot can bundle verses together to teach error. 
It takes wisdom to provide an understanding.
I will move on to find such a wise man.

You remind me of a guy (who actually is disfunctional) who had not received
the revelation that Jesus is God when I had this discussion with him ...
I told him that I had 70+ verses which point to the fact that Jesus is God.
He said to me, "I don't care if you have 700 verses."

He was born into a pentecostal family, which was disfunctional in several ways.
His father was a less-than-successful pastor since about age 20.
His mother was given a vision of Hell at age 18, and was an evangelist.
I knew this family for 25 years (the parents are now deceased).

Note: the whole family was plagued by Satan's demons for many years.
But this fact remains a trillion miles over your head, as do a lot of other things.

Quote from: fish153 on Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 10:41:22
Insight--

This is useless.  Your whole agenda on this board---every thread you start---every conversation you engage in is based on either why the Trinity doesn't exist, or why Jesus is not God.  You refuse to listen to very clear presentations of scripture which show clearly that Jesus was God Incarnate.  It is a ping-pong game with you----when you are faced with scripture which shows how off-base you are, you ignore it and proceed in another direction in an attempt to justify your position.  As I said, this is useless conversation. I shouldn't even continue as long as I have in discussions with a heretic-----I just hoped that you might possibly listen. It is clear now that you will not. 

Fish,

Your denial of Jesus' nature is holding you back.

I have asked you to answer the most simplest of questions and yet time and time again you fail to show a sound understanding of why Jesus was baptised.

I asked you to look into the word "straightened" in Luke 12:50 but nothing. I ask you to what part of Jesus need baptism and yet one would think to define and show forth an understanding of Baptism from the Bible but again I received nothing. I asked you why Jesus rebuked John by saying "I have need" but have you once revealed what that need might be?

I refuse to show you his baptism because of your blindness maybe another (mediator) can provide this simplest of truthes.

Insight

Quote from: John Zain on Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 11:01:45

You remind me of a guy (who actually is disfunctional) who had not received
the revelation that Jesus is God when I had this discussion with him ...
I told him that I had 70+ verses which point to the fact that Jesus is God.
He said to me, "I don't care if you have 700 verses."

He was born into a pentecostal family, which was disfunctional in several ways.
His father was a less-than-successful pastor since about age 20.
His mother was given a vision of Hell at age 18, and was an evangelist.
I knew this family for 25 years (the parents are now deceased).

Note: the whole family was plagued by Satan's demons for many years.
But this fact remains a trillion miles over your head, as do a lot of other things.[/color]

And yet you fail to provide one (1) verse. 

You remind me of a guy......

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 19:12:30

Quote from: fish153 on Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 10:41:22
Insight--

This is useless.  Your whole agenda on this board---every thread you start---every conversation you engage in is based on either why the Trinity doesn't exist, or why Jesus is not God.  You refuse to listen to very clear presentations of scripture which show clearly that Jesus was God Incarnate.  It is a ping-pong game with you----when you are faced with scripture which shows how off-base you are, you ignore it and proceed in another direction in an attempt to justify your position.  As I said, this is useless conversation. I shouldn't even continue as long as I have in discussions with a heretic-----I just hoped that you might possibly listen. It is clear now that you will not.  

Fish,

Your denial of Jesus' nature is holding you back.

I have asked you to answer the most simplest of questions and yet time and time again you fail to show a sound understanding of why Jesus was baptised.

I asked you to look into the word "straightened" in Luke 12:50 but nothing. I ask you to what part of Jesus need baptism and yet one would think to define and show forth an understanding of Baptism from the Bible but again I received nothing. I asked you why Jesus rebuked John by saying "I have need" but have you once revealed what that need might be?

I refuse to show you his baptism because of your blindness maybe another (mediator) can provide this simplest of truthes.

Insight

Insight--

I showed you a very sound reason why Jesus was baptized, backed with Bible verses and explanations. He was baptized to fulfill the Law so he could be a High Priest.  Jesus did not need to be baptized due to a fallen nature---he was baptized to "fulfill righteousness"---to keep the Law as to what a Priest needs to do to fulfill that office.  He was washed with water as the Law requires, and He was annointed by the Holy Spirit.

You choose to completely ignore this clear teaching so that you can keep your doctrine.  You are acting like a heretic---completely ignoring clear teaching, and then straying into obscure areas to try to salvage your incorrect teachings.  As I said before, it is useless----I keep posting---but it is useless---you simply will not listen--and it isn't just me---numerous people have presented clear teachings showing you why Jesus is indeed God, but you brush it off and just will not listen.  It is one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time on this board.

By the way, your name should not be "insight" because you have none------it should be "incite" because that's what you do on the board.  You cause many good Christians here to spend most of their time defending their Great Lord and His Deity, or the very nature of the Sovereign God in Trinity.  yes--Incite is a far better name to use.

Quote from: fish153 on Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 22:52:37
Insight--

I showed you a very sound reason why Jesus was baptized, backed with Bible verses and explanations.

No Fish, you avoided the essential elements of his Baptism which are contrary to your beliefs.

Quote

He was baptized to fulfill the Law so he could be a High Priest.  Jesus did not need to be baptized due to a fallen nature.

You provided the below references to support Jesus baptism.

Quote

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).

Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism.

Fish, you have quoted passages which you "may

Thank you for this post Insight
I was deeply touched by it. 

Quote from: Beta on Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 07:00:19

Thank you for this post Insight
I was deeply touched by it. 

Your welcome.

It is comforting to see one who understands the Lords baptism (of fire) and of water etc.

Insight

Quote from: Insight on Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 03:30:58

Quote from: fish153 on Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 22:52:37
Insight--

I showed you a very sound reason why Jesus was baptized, backed with Bible verses and explanations.

No Fish, you avoided the essential elements of his Baptism which are contrary to your beliefs.

Quote

He was baptized to fulfill the Law so he could be a High Priest.  Jesus did not need to be baptized due to a fallen nature.

You provided the below references to support Jesus baptism.

Quote

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

•Washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16).
•Anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).

Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism.

Fish, you have quoted passages which you "may