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One of the biggest heresy's in the church today is the teaching that Christians don't need to obey God's Ten Commandment Law because we are under grace. This devilish teaching has caused the church to become very lukewarm and disobedient. Jesus never came to do away with God's Law. I believe all Ten Commandments are still valid, including the fourth commandment--to Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

If God's Law has been abolished then how do Christians know what absolute morality is? The apostle Paul said that he would not have known sin except through the law (Romans 7:7).

What's your opinion on this?

You need first to understand what "the law" of Moses is.  It is not the 10 commandments.  It is also obvious that you do not understand grace.

Quote from: Johnb on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 07:45:44
You need first to understand what "the law" of Moses is.  It is not the 10 commandments.  It is also obvious that you do not understand grace.

And it is not so obvious that you do.

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 07:34:18
One of the biggest heresy's in the church today is the teaching that Christians don't need to obey God's Ten Commandment Law because we are under grace. This devilish teaching has caused the church to become very lukewarm and disobedient. Jesus never came to do away with God's Law. I believe all Ten Commandments are still valid, including the fourth commandment--to Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

If God's Law has been abolished then how do Christians know what absolute morality is? The apostle Paul said that he would not have known sin except through the law (Romans 7:7).

What's your opinion on this?

The day you understand why Jesus was so pleased with the leper that TURNED BACK from obeying the commandment of GO SHOW YOURSELF TO THE PRIEST, and at the same time understand why he was so disappointed at the nine lepers that actually OBEYED HIM, that is the day you will understand why we do business by the Holy Spirit.  That is also the day you will understand that to get people to do the right thing, and bear fruit and marry Christ, they need to be dead to the law and full of the Holy Spirit.  It is either the Old Testament was or the New Testament way. 

Luke 17:11 And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

The lesson of that story: Put Jesus first, before the commandment.  Do likewise in your agenda for the week. That is one of 28 biblical reasons why we put God first on our agenda for the week.  Col 1:18 ... that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Shalom

Old Testament - New Testament

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Do you want to improve in the way you keep the law and bear more fruit and marry Christ?  Here is how:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We either tell God: Just give me the marching orders, I can do this....
or tell him: I need help, as soon as I hear the law, I want to go the other way, help me Lord, fill me with your Holy Spirit and change me from the inside out.

Shalom

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 08:40:16
Old Testament - New Testament

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Do you want to improve in the way you keep the law and bear more fruit and marry Christ?  Here is how:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We either tell God: Just give me the marching orders, I can do this....
or tell him: I need help, as soon as I hear the law, I want to go the other way, help me Lord, fill me with your Holy Spirit and change me from the inside out.

Shalom

I'm afraid those verses you quoted have been ripped out of their context, which is blasphemy. The Ten Commandments are as valid today as when God first wrote them in stone. God has not changed. It is sinful and blasphemous to twist the writings of Paul in order to justify neglecting God's commandments. I say this in a loving way so don't think that I'm attacking you. Peace!

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 08:59:11

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 08:40:16
Old Testament - New Testament

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Do you want to improve in the way you keep the law and bear more fruit and marry Christ?  Here is how:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We either tell God: Just give me the marching orders, I can do this....
or tell him: I need help, as soon as I hear the law, I want to go the other way, help me Lord, fill me with your Holy Spirit and change me from the inside out.

Shalom

I'm afraid those verses you quoted have been ripped out of their context, which is blasphemy. The Ten Commandments are as valid today as when God first wrote them in stone. God has not changed. It is sinful and blasphemous to twist the writings of Paul in order to justify neglecting God's commandments. I say this in a loving way so don't think that I'm attacking you. Peace!

Please notice that those that are under the law do two things and two things constantly:

1. Praise themselves saying "I am a loving person, and what I am doing is a very loving act".  It is written: Prov 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

The other thing they cann't stop doing is accusing others.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Me?  A blasphemer? Actually, I am the worst sinner here.  But even I have a better chance of entering into heaven than the self righteous.  For it is written:

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Praise God for his unfailing grace !

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 09:19:34

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 08:59:11

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 08:40:16
Old Testament - New Testament

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Do you want to improve in the way you keep the law and bear more fruit and marry Christ?  Here is how:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We either tell God: Just give me the marching orders, I can do this....
or tell him: I need help, as soon as I hear the law, I want to go the other way, help me Lord, fill me with your Holy Spirit and change me from the inside out.

Shalom

I'm afraid those verses you quoted have been ripped out of their context, which is blasphemy. The Ten Commandments are as valid today as when God first wrote them in stone. God has not changed. It is sinful and blasphemous to twist the writings of Paul in order to justify neglecting God's commandments. I say this in a loving way so don't think that I'm attacking you. Peace!

Please notice that those that are under the law do two things and two things constantly:

1. Praise themselves saying "I am a loving person, and what I am doing is a very loving act".  It is written: Prov 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

The other thing they cann't stop doing is accusing others.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Me?  A blasphemer? Actually, I am the worst sinner here.  But even I have a better chance of entering into heaven than the self righteous.  For it is written:

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Praise God for his unfailing grace !

I too am a sinner who is unworthy. I never try to think of myself better than others. However, as a Christian I feel strongly about other people who profess to be a Christian and teach heresy. If we are living in a age where the church is teaching people that we don't need to keep God's commandments then I think somebody needs to speak the truth and expose false doctrine. All I'm doing is preaching what Jesus and his apostles preached--to keep God's commandments.

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 09:27:08
If we are living in a age where the church is teaching people that we don't need to keep God's commandments then I think somebody needs to speak the truth and expose false doctrine. All I'm doing is preaching what Jesus and his apostles preached--to keep God's commandments.

We do not say we do not need to keep God's commandments, we say we do not need to keep them to EARN SALVATION, which is a different thing.  We all preach that we should be as holy as we can, keep as many commandments as we can, with the goal being perfect, but we do not preach it is needed to earn salvation.  I do not keep the law because I have to (or else I love my salvation?), when I keep God's law, it is because I want to.  Keeping the commandments to save ourselves is worthless.

This is what the Bible says about God's Commandments (our schoolmaster):

     a. They bring God's wrath upon us (Rom 4:15)
     b. They are our enemy (Eph 2:15)
     c. They make sin strong in our life (Rom 7:8-11)
     d. Cause us to sin (Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13,20; Rom 7:8; 1Jo 3:4)
     e. Rule over us (Gal 3:24-25; Rom 7:1; Gal 4:9-11)
     f. Bring death to us (Rom 7:10; 2Cor 3:6-7)
     g. Curse us (Gal 3:10)
     h. They are not of faith (Gal 3:12)
     i. They are against us (Col 2:14)
     j. They condemn us (2Co 3:9)
     k. Can not justify us (Rom 3:20,28)
     l. Doing the commandments do not and can not bring miracles (Gal 3:1-6; Mat 11:13; John 10:41)
    m. And even the times we fulfill the law, that is unacceptable before God (Isa 64:6)

ISA 64:6  But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; ...

Yes, even those things that we do right by fulfilling the law of Moses and the 10 Commandments is garbage (when it comes to salvation)!

Peace

Here is a challenge:  Try to defend the doctrine that we have to keep the Sabbath without praising yourself and without accusing others.  Go ahead try it.

TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER...

Commandment # 1:  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30;  1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6;  Gal 3:20;  Eph 4:6;  1Tim 2:5; James 2:19.   Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39;  Mark 12:30;  Luke 10:27;  2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2:   Stay away from idols.  Acts 15:20,29;  Eph 5:5;  1Cor 5:11;  1Th 1:9;  Acts 17:16;  Acts 21:25;  1Cor 6:9;  1Pe 4:3-4;  1Cor 10:7,14;  1John 5:21;  Rev 2:14,20;  Rev 9:20;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3:  Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.  Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1;  Rev 16:9;  Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31;  Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4:  NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5:  Honor your father and mother.  Rom 1:30;  2Tim 3:2;  Mat 19:19;  Luke 18:20;  Mat 15:4;  Mark 10:19;  Eph 6:2;  Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6:  Do not kill.  Mark 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 1:29;  Gal 5:21;  1Tim 1:9;  1Pe 4:15;  1John 3:15;  Rev 9:21;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7:  Do not comit adultery.  Mar 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 16:18;  Luke 18:20;  Heb 13:4;  Mat 5:27;  Gal 5:19;  Mat 15:19-20;  Mark 7:121;  Mark 10:11-12;  Rom 13:9;  1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8:  Do not steal.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 2:21;  1Cor 6:9-10;  Eph 4:28;  1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9.  Do not lie.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  John 8:44; Acts 5:3;  Col 3:9;  Rev 21:27;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10.  Do not covet.  Eph 5:3,5;  Mark 7:22-23;  2Pe 2:14;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  luke 12:15;  1Cor 5:11;  1Tim 6:10;  1Tim 3:2;  Rom 1:29;  Rom 7:7;  Col 3:5-6.

Peace

I thought the law was a ministration of death, written and engraven in stones. Wielded as such it condemns the ungodly and it's still effective, but it cannot give life.

And then, there was only One Who ever kept the law. We're told now as children of God in Romans 8:4, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. And then Who is doing the fulfilling?

The law could not do this, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

We are not our own, and as a result of being in Christ We are God's workmanship as He conforms us into the very image of His Son Jesus. Do you really want to take credit for what God does, for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure?     

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 09:42:24
Here is a challenge:  Try to defend the doctrine that we have to keep the Sabbath without praising yourself and without accusing others.  Go ahead try it.

TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER...

Commandment # 1:  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30;  1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6;  Gal 3:20;  Eph 4:6;  1Tim 2:5; James 2:19.   Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39;  Mark 12:30;  Luke 10:27;  2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2:   Stay away from idols.  Acts 15:20,29;  Eph 5:5;  1Cor 5:11;  1Th 1:9;  Acts 17:16;  Acts 21:25;  1Cor 6:9;  1Pe 4:3-4;  1Cor 10:7,14;  1John 5:21;  Rev 2:14,20;  Rev 9:20;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3:  Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.  Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1;  Rev 16:9;  Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31;  Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4:  NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5:  Honor your father and mother.  Rom 1:30;  2Tim 3:2;  Mat 19:19;  Luke 18:20;  Mat 15:4;  Mark 10:19;  Eph 6:2;  Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6:  Do not kill.  Mark 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 1:29;  Gal 5:21;  1Tim 1:9;  1Pe 4:15;  1John 3:15;  Rev 9:21;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7:  Do not comit adultery.  Mar 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 16:18;  Luke 18:20;  Heb 13:4;  Mat 5:27;  Gal 5:19;  Mat 15:19-20;  Mark 7:121;  Mark 10:11-12;  Rom 13:9;  1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8:  Do not steal.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 2:21;  1Cor 6:9-10;  Eph 4:28;  1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9.  Do not lie.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  John 8:44; Acts 5:3;  Col 3:9;  Rev 21:27;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10.  Do not covet.  Eph 5:3,5;  Mark 7:22-23;  2Pe 2:14;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  luke 12:15;  1Cor 5:11;  1Tim 6:10;  1Tim 3:2;  Rom 1:29;  Rom 7:7;  Col 3:5-6.

Peace

I too believe that we are only saved by faith. However, my argument is that there are many Christians who think that it's okay to neglect God's commandments after they are saved. True faith will compel a person to honor God's commandments, but dead faith will cause a person to neglect them.

The Sabbath commandment is repeated in the New Testament more than any other commandment. The only commandment that is never repeated is the one that says, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain." You may find the word blasphemy in the New Testament, but you will never find the third commandment repeated in its original words. The Sabbath commandment is repeated many times. But this is my question to you:

Does it make any sense to you that Jesus would decide to abolish one of the Ten Commandments? Would that be consistent? Jesus never gave his followers any idea that the Sabbath was going to be changed or abolished. Common sense should tell you that ALL Ten Commandments are still valid.

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 09:52:58

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 09:42:24
Here is a challenge:  Try to defend the doctrine that we have to keep the Sabbath without praising yourself and without accusing others.  Go ahead try it.

TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER...

Commandment # 1:  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30;  1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6;  Gal 3:20;  Eph 4:6;  1Tim 2:5; James 2:19.   Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39;  Mark 12:30;  Luke 10:27;  2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2:   Stay away from idols.  Acts 15:20,29;  Eph 5:5;  1Cor 5:11;  1Th 1:9;  Acts 17:16;  Acts 21:25;  1Cor 6:9;  1Pe 4:3-4;  1Cor 10:7,14;  1John 5:21;  Rev 2:14,20;  Rev 9:20;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3:  Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.  Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1;  Rev 16:9;  Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31;  Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4:  NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5:  Honor your father and mother.  Rom 1:30;  2Tim 3:2;  Mat 19:19;  Luke 18:20;  Mat 15:4;  Mark 10:19;  Eph 6:2;  Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6:  Do not kill.  Mark 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 1:29;  Gal 5:21;  1Tim 1:9;  1Pe 4:15;  1John 3:15;  Rev 9:21;  Rev 21:8;  Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7:  Do not comit adultery.  Mar 10:19;  Mat 19:18;  Luke 16:18;  Luke 18:20;  Heb 13:4;  Mat 5:27;  Gal 5:19;  Mat 15:19-20;  Mark 7:121;  Mark 10:11-12;  Rom 13:9;  1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8:  Do not steal.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  Rom 2:21;  1Cor 6:9-10;  Eph 4:28;  1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9.  Do not lie.  Mat 19:18;  Mark 10:19;  Luke 18:20;  Rom 13:9;  John 8:44; Acts 5:3;  Col 3:9;  Rev 21:27;  Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10.  Do not covet.  Eph 5:3,5;  Mark 7:22-23;  2Pe 2:14;  1Cor 6:9;  Rom 13:9;  luke 12:15;  1Cor 5:11;  1Tim 6:10;  1Tim 3:2;  Rom 1:29;  Rom 7:7;  Col 3:5-6.

Peace

I too believe that we are only saved by faith. However, my argument is that there are many Christians who think that it's okay to neglect God's commandments after they are saved. True faith will compel a person to honor God's commandments, but dead faith will cause a person to neglect them.

The Sabbath commandment is repeated in the New Testament more than any other commandment. The only commandment that is never repeated is the one that says, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain." You may find the word blasphemy in the New Testament, but you will never find the third commandment repeated in its original words. The Sabbath commandment is repeated many times. But this is my question to you:

Does it make any sense to you that Jesus would decide to abolish one of the Ten Commandments? Would that be consistent? Jesus never gave his followers any idea that the Sabbath was going to be changed or abolished. Common sense should tell you that ALL Ten Commandments are still valid.

No, but Jesus gave the Apostles the power to "bind and loose" things as they saw fit. And they took this power and used it to the full. When they (the Apostles) started meeting on the first day of the week, the Lord's day, Christians continued that tradition. We are the new creations in God, the fulfillment of Gods promise, the Old Law removed from humanity so that all can now be acceptable to God.

First the ten commandments are not a separate set of laws, but part of the 613 Mosaic laws so why do you separate them. We are no longer under the curse of these laws as Jesus came to fulfill them, not to destroy them. If you want to live under the law then you are not living by faith, but of works of the law and in not keeping all 613 of them you are under a curse of unbelief that will separate you from God in your own sin, but now we have grace through the sacrifice (Jesus) for sin that we may be redeemed from the curse of the law.

OLD COVENANT                              NEW COVENANT

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14            NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6 
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1        SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9 
Came by Moses... John 1:17             Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15 
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3      Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16 
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39         Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2 
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6           Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2 
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2                     Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27 
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1            Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25 
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6                  Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31 
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7               Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8 
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9       Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9 
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17               The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18 
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18               NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9 
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12     UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24 
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13        ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12 
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19                   PERFECT... Heb. 7:19 
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19         Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28 
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48                 Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12 
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10               NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8 
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3           FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17 
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3         PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4 
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3                SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26 
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11       MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10 
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5       HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11 
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11                   Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14 
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18    POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16 
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13               ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15 
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13       Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28 
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13          Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14 
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15          SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9 
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19        Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14 
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28                  COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12 
NO justification... Acts 13:39            BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39 
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10             REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13 
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13               CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11 
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7           Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18 
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3       ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19 


Gal 3:10 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 5:17 think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 3:28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Actually there is a difference between the ceremonial law and the moral law. God wrote His law in stone for a reason. To say that God's law is the same as the ceremonial law is just ludicrous. Heaven and earth would have to pass in order for God's law to pass (Luke 16:17).

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:34:18
First the ten commandments are not a separate set of laws, but part of the 613 Mosaic laws so why do you separate them. We are no longer under the curse of these laws as Jesus came to fulfill them, not to destroy them. If you want to live under the law then you are not living by faith, but of works of the law and in not keeping all 613 of them you are under a curse of unbelief that will separate you from God in your own sin, but now we have grace through the sacrifice (Jesus) for sin that we may be redeemed from the curse of the law.

OLD COVENANT                              NEW COVENANT

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14            NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6 
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1        SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9 
Came by Moses... John 1:17             Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15 
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3      Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16 
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39         Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2 
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6           Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2 
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2                     Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27 
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1            Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25 
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6                  Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31 
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7               Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8 
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9       Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9 
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17               The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18 
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18               NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9 
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12     UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24 
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13        ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12 
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19                   PERFECT... Heb. 7:19 
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19         Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28 
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48                 Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12 
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10               NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8 
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3           FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17 
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3         PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4 
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3                SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26 
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11       MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10 
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5       HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11 
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11                   Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14 
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18    POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16 
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13               ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15 
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13       Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28 
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13          Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14 
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15          SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9 
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19        Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14 
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28                  COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12 
NO justification... Acts 13:39            BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39 
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10             REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13 
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13               CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11 
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7           Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18 
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3       ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19 


Gal 3:10 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 5:17 think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 3:28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Actually there is a difference between the ceremonial law and the moral law. God wrote His law in stone for a reason. To say that God's law is the same as the ceremonial law is just ludicrous. Heaven and earth would have to pass in order for God's law to pass (Luke 16:17).

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:45:45

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:34:18
First the ten commandments are not a separate set of laws, but part of the 613 Mosaic laws so why do you separate them. We are no longer under the curse of these laws as Jesus came to fulfill them, not to destroy them. If you want to live under the law then you are not living by faith, but of works of the law and in not keeping all 613 of them you are under a curse of unbelief that will separate you from God in your own sin, but now we have grace through the sacrifice (Jesus) for sin that we may be redeemed from the curse of the law.

OLD COVENANT                              NEW COVENANT

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14            NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6 
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1        SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9 
Came by Moses... John 1:17             Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15 
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3      Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16 
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39         Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2 
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6           Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2 
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2                     Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27 
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1            Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25 
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6                  Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31 
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7               Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8 
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9       Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9 
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17               The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18 
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18               NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9 
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12     UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24 
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13        ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12 
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19                   PERFECT... Heb. 7:19 
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19         Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28 
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48                 Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12 
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10               NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8 
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3           FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17 
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3         PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4 
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3                SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26 
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11       MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10 
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5       HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11 
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11                   Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14 
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18    POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16 
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13               ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15 
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13       Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28 
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13          Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14 
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15          SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9 
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19        Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14 
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28                  COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12 
NO justification... Acts 13:39            BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39 
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10             REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13 
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13               CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11 
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7           Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18 
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3       ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19 


Gal 3:10 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 5:17 think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 3:28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Actually there is a difference between the ceremonial law and the moral law. God wrote His law in stone for a reason. To say that God's law is the same as the ceremonial law is just ludicrous. Heaven and earth would have to pass in order for God's law to pass (Luke 16:17).

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, ... which glory was to be done away:

That which was written in stone ministers death to us.  The Holy Spirit ministers life.  I like life better. What do you prefer?  Life or death?

2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Peace

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:11:29

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:45:45

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:34:18
First the ten commandments are not a separate set of laws, but part of the 613 Mosaic laws so why do you separate them. We are no longer under the curse of these laws as Jesus came to fulfill them, not to destroy them. If you want to live under the law then you are not living by faith, but of works of the law and in not keeping all 613 of them you are under a curse of unbelief that will separate you from God in your own sin, but now we have grace through the sacrifice (Jesus) for sin that we may be redeemed from the curse of the law.

OLD COVENANT                              NEW COVENANT

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14            NEW Covenant... II Cor. 3:6 
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1        SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9 
Came by Moses... John 1:17             Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15 
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3      Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16 
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39         Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2 
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6           Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2 
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2                     Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27 
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1            Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25 
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6                  Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31 
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7               Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8 
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9       Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9 
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17               The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18 
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18               NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9 
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12     UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24 
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13        ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12 
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19                   PERFECT... Heb. 7:19 
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19         Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28 
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48                 Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12 
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10               NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8 
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3           FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17 
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3         PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4 
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3                SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26 
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11       MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10 
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5       HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11 
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11                   Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14 
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18    POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16 
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13               ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15 
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13       Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28 
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13          Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14 
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15          SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9 
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19        Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14 
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28                  COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12 
NO justification... Acts 13:39            BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39 
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10             REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13 
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13               CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11 
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7           Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18 
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3       ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19 


Gal 3:10 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Mat 5:17 think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Gal 3:28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Actually there is a difference between the ceremonial law and the moral law. God wrote His law in stone for a reason. To say that God's law is the same as the ceremonial law is just ludicrous. Heaven and earth would have to pass in order for God's law to pass (Luke 16:17).

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, ... which glory was to be done away:

That which was written in stone ministers death to us.  The Holy Spirit ministers life.  I like life better. What do you prefer?  Life or death?

2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Peace

2 Corinthians 3:7 is referring to the "glory" of Moses' ministration of the law was to be done away, but not the law. Read the whole passage of 2 Corinthians 3:3-9 again, carefully. The subject is not the doing away with the law or its establishment, but rather, the change of the location of the law from "tables of stone" to the "tables of the heart." Under Moses' ministration the law was on stones. Under the Holy Spirit's ministration, through Christ, the law is written upon the heart (Hebrews 8:10).

2 Corinthians 3:7 cannot be used and distorted to say that the Ten Commandments have been made obsolete. God's law will stand until heaven and earth pass away.

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:45:45

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

That's exactly right if you're attempting to be justified by law, but the problem is that you don't keep the law because the flesh is weak. You're here attempting to make the law a savior, and if that was the case, Jesus died in vain.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
How are you going to interpret Galatians 5:4?  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. To me it doesn't say you'll fall from salvation, but fall from the only way God works in us, and that is by grace.

Quote from: larry2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:47:07

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:45:45

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

That's exactly right if you're attempting to be justified by law, but the problem is that you don't keep the law because the flesh is weak. You're here attempting to make the law a savior, and if that was the case, Jesus died in vain.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
How are you going to interpret Galatians 5:4?  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. To me it doesn't say you'll fall from salvation, but fall from the only way God works in us, and that is by grace.

Romans 2:13 and Galatians 2:16 do not contradict. In Galatians 2:16 Paul is saying that you are not saved by keeping the law. The Galatians were still relying on the law to save them instead of Jesus Christ. Paul wanted to correct them so they would accept Jesus Christ and get saved. However, in Romans 2:13 Paul is making it clear that AFTER a person gets saved, it doesn't mean they can neglect God's law and wilfully break His commandments. This is where Christians have misunderstood Paul. Just because we are not saved by keeping the law doesn't mean we can use faith to neglect it. When Paul warned the churches that they can't be saved by keeping the law, he was saying this because some of these churches were still relying on the law to save them. However, when a person finally accepted Jesus Christ they were at no liberty to live in rebellion against God's law. So you see, there is no contradiction between Romans 2:13 and Galatians 2:16.

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:16:41

Quote from: larry2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:47:07

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:45:45

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

That's exactly right if you're attempting to be justified by law, but the problem is that you don't keep the law because the flesh is weak. You're here attempting to make the law a savior, and if that was the case, Jesus died in vain.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
How are you going to interpret Galatians 5:4?  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. To me it doesn't say you'll fall from salvation, but fall from the only way God works in us, and that is by grace.

Romans 2:13 and Galatians 2:16 do not contradict. In Galatians 2:16 Paul is saying that you are not saved by keeping the law. The Galatians were still relying on the law to save them instead of Jesus Christ. Paul wanted to correct them so they would accept Jesus Christ and get saved. However, in Romans 2:13 Paul is making it clear that AFTER a person gets saved, it doesn't mean they can neglect God's law and wilfully break His commandments. This is where Christians have misunderstood Paul. Just because we are not saved by keeping the law doesn't mean we can use faith to neglect it. When Paul warned the churches that they can't be saved by keeping the law, he was saying this because some of these churches were still relying on the law to save them. However, when a person finally accepted Jesus Christ they were at no liberty to live in rebellion against God's law. So you see, there is no contradiction between Romans 2:13 and Galatians 2:16.

If there's no way of being saved by the law, what purpose do you see it serving? I read in Galatians 3:19, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . . "

Quote from: larry2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:37:42

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:16:41

Quote from: larry2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 12:47:07

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 11:45:45

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).

That's exactly right if you're attempting to be justified by law, but the problem is that you don't keep the law because the flesh is weak. You're here attempting to make the law a savior, and if that was the case, Jesus died in vain.

Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
How are you going to interpret Galatians 5:4?  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. To me it doesn't say you'll fall from salvation, but fall from the only way God works in us, and that is by grace.

Romans 2:13 and Galatians 2:16 do not contradict. In Galatians 2:16 Paul is saying that you are not saved by keeping the law. The Galatians were still relying on the law to save them instead of Jesus Christ. Paul wanted to correct them so they would accept Jesus Christ and get saved. However, in Romans 2:13 Paul is making it clear that AFTER a person gets saved, it doesn't mean they can neglect God's law and wilfully break His commandments. This is where Christians have misunderstood Paul. Just because we are not saved by keeping the law doesn't mean we can use faith to neglect it. When Paul warned the churches that they can't be saved by keeping the law, he was saying this because some of these churches were still relying on the law to save them. However, when a person finally accepted Jesus Christ they were at no liberty to live in rebellion against God's law. So you see, there is no contradiction between Romans 2:13 and Galatians 2:16.

If there's no way of being saved by the law, what purpose do you see it serving? I read in Galatians 3:19, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . . "

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying we are saved by keeping the law. We are saved only by faith in Jesus Christ. However, can a Christian have true faith while still neglecting God's law? If God's commandments no longer exist then what is the point in repentance? Can a Christian have true faith and go around stealing, killing, and committing adultery? Only a Christian with dead faith would wilfully neglect God's law. However, true faith will compel a person to honor God'a law and keep God's commandments.

Quote from: larry2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:37:42

If there's no way of being saved by the law, what purpose do you see it serving? I read in Galatians 3:19, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . . "

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:45:43

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying we are saved by keeping the law. We are saved only by faith in Jesus Christ. However, can a Christian have true faith while still neglecting God's law? If God's commandments no longer exist then what is the point in repentance? Can a Christian have true faith and go around stealing, killing, and committing adultery? Only a Christian with dead faith would wilfully neglect God's law. However, true faith will compel a person to honor God's law and keep God's commandments.

If the law is not part of our salvation, it is by necessity not included in it because it had done its work in turning us to God. The works we do must also be separated as the results of our salvation; not the means of it. i.e. Matthew 7:16,  "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

What is the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Keeping the Sabbath? We read in Revelation 19:7, ". .  the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." How does she qualify for this exalted position? The righteousness she displays are righteous acts.

If keeping the law does not save us, it also fails the litmus test of keeping us saved; we are not saved by works of righteousness regardless of what spin you put to it. Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

If we were to stand at eternity's door judged by the commandments we keep, would "Loving our neighbor as ourselves" show its good work among all we encounter? Galatians 5:14. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Are you doing this 100% of the time? You're not? And you are concerned with that which kills?

Again I must ask; what is the law? A ministration of death; not life as many proclaim it to be. In Egypt, the requirement of the Passover was the blood. They could be killing their kids within the house, but in Exodus 12:13  ". . when I see the blood, I will pass over you."

You might consider a song we sing:

1.   What can wash away my sin?
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   What can make me whole again?
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain:
   O precious is the flow
   that makes me white as snow;
   no other fount I know;
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.

2.   For my pardon this I see:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   For my cleansing this my plea:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   (Refrain)

3.   Nothing can for sin atone:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   Naught of good that I have done:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   (Refrain)

4.   This is all my hope and peace:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   This is all my righteousness:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   (Refrain)

Quote from: larry2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 20:57:04

Quote from: larry2 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:37:42

If there's no way of being saved by the law, what purpose do you see it serving? I read in Galatians 3:19, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . . "

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 13:45:43

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying we are saved by keeping the law. We are saved only by faith in Jesus Christ. However, can a Christian have true faith while still neglecting God's law? If God's commandments no longer exist then what is the point in repentance? Can a Christian have true faith and go around stealing, killing, and committing adultery? Only a Christian with dead faith would wilfully neglect God's law. However, true faith will compel a person to honor God's law and keep God's commandments.

If the law is not part of our salvation, it is by necessity not included in it because it had done its work in turning us to God. The works we do must also be separated as the results of our salvation; not the means of it. i.e. Matthew 7:16,  "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

What is the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Keeping the Sabbath? We read in Revelation 19:7, ". .  the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." How does she qualify for this exalted position? The righteousness she displays are righteous acts.

If keeping the law does not save us, it also fails the litmus test of keeping us saved; we are not saved by works of righteousness regardless of what spin you put to it. Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

If we were to stand at eternity's door judged by the commandments we keep, would "Loving our neighbor as ourselves" show its good work among all we encounter? Galatians 5:14. "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Are you doing this 100% of the time? You're not? And you are concerned with that which kills?

Again I must ask; what is the law? A ministration of death; not life as many proclaim it to be. In Egypt, the requirement of the Passover was the blood. They could be killing their kids within the house, but in Exodus 12:13  ". . when I see the blood, I will pass over you."

You might consider a song we sing:

1.   What can wash away my sin?
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   What can make me whole again?
   Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain:
   O precious is the flow
   that makes me white as snow;
   no other fount I know;
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.

2.   For my pardon this I see:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   For my cleansing this my plea:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   (Refrain)

3.   Nothing can for sin atone:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   Naught of good that I have done:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   (Refrain)

4.   This is all my hope and peace:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   This is all my righteousness:
   nothing but the blood of Jesus.
   (Refrain)

I think you are still misunderstanding me. The law of God is like a mirror. It shows us our sin:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7).

Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

Breaking God's law is sin. This is what the Bible says. Do you think you will still get into heaven if you deliberately violate God's law after you are saved?

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:21-23).

This is the problem with Christianity today. False teachers have twisted the writings of Paul to teach that we don't need to be obedient to God, that all we have to do is believe in Jesus and we will be saved. This is why the church today is filled with lukewarm hypocrites. People think they don't need to repent of their sins. They think that as long as they have faith in Jesus they can continue to violate God's law.

Do not be fooled. God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows that he will also reap. People who think they can insult God's mercy by neglecting His commandments after they are saved need to go back and study the scriptures more carefully. The Bible doesn't teach that Christians are at liberty to break God's commandments whenever they feel like it.

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 02:46:13

I think you are still misunderstanding me. The law of God is like a mirror. It shows us our sin:

Not even a little bit; you are boasting in the law. If you know what the law says as that mirror, why do you sin? Is it willfully done, or is it that you just can't help yourself and you have become its slave?

Like I said, you can put any spin on it you want, but you are saying that keeping the Sabbath saves you; those that don't will face the dreaded words, "depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Romans 14:3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. BUT,

Galatians 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Not fallen from salvation.)
 
You don't keep the law so why boast that you do, and it's fortunate you can't really take the saying to yourself: "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."

No, it don't work that way: our salvation is a gift of grace and the mercy of God to all that believe, and that does include you.

1 John 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Who is the seed that remains in us, and are you born of God?

1 John 5:18  "We know that whosoever is born of God (Me) sinneth not; but He (Jesus) that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

2 Timothy 2:13  If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself (Us, His body).

Hebrews 13:5  ". . for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Blessings in Christ Jesus

Quote from: larry2 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 09:55:31

Quote from: ObeyTheGospel on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 02:46:13

I think you are still misunderstanding me. The law of God is like a mirror. It shows us our sin:

Not even a little bit; you are boasting in the law. If you know what the law says as that mirror, why do you sin? Is it willfully done, or is it that you just can't help yourself and you have become its slave?

Like I said, you can put any spin on it you want, but you are saying that keeping the Sabbath saves you; those that don't will face the dreaded words, "depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Romans 14:3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. BUT,

Galatians 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Not fallen from salvation.)
 
You don't keep the law so why boast that you do, and it's fortunate you can't really take the saying to yourself: "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."

No, it don't work that way: our salvation is a gift of grace and the mercy of God to all that believe, and that does include you.

1 John 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Who is the seed that remains in us, and are you born of God?

1 John 5:18  "We know that whosoever is born of God (Me) sinneth not; but He (Jesus) that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

2 Timothy 2:13  If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself (Us, His body).

Hebrews 13:5  ". . for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Blessings in Christ Jesus

You obviously payed no attention to what I said. The Bible says that sin is the transgression of the law. I'm just repeating what the Bible says. Please read what I said, carefully:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:7).

Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

Breaking God's law is sin. This is what the Bible says. Do you think you will still get into heaven if you deliberately violate God's law after you are saved?

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:21-23).

This is the problem with Christianity today. False teachers have twisted the writings of Paul to teach that we don't need to be obedient to God, that all we have to do is believe in Jesus and we will be saved. This is why the church today is filled with lukewarm hypocrites. People think they don't need to repent of their sins. They think that as long as they have faith in Jesus they can continue to violate God's law.

Do not be fooled. God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows that he will also reap. People who think they can insult God's mercy by neglecting His commandments after they are saved need to go back and study the scriptures more carefully. The Bible doesn't teach that Christians are at liberty to break God's commandments whenever they feel like it.

ObeyTheGospel - Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

Breaking God's law is sin. This is what the Bible says. Do you think you will still get into heaven if you deliberately violate God's law after you are saved?

larry2 - So when you sin, are you doing so accidently, or on purpose? Why do you practice lawlessness? Have you yet attained to the point of "Loving your neighbor as yourself?"

ObeyTheGospel - The Bible doesn't teach that Christians are at liberty to break God's commandments whenever they feel like it.

larry2 - And so when you break the commandments, do you plead "I didn't feel like it, but I did it anyway? Is that willful sin to you? Do you have any concept of the battle Paul presents in Romans Chapter Seven he had with the old, or carnal self, and the new man in Christ? When you really get to the point of believing you're keeping yourself instead of Christ keeping you you'd better take a closer look at that ministration of death; that command that slew Paul, quit glorying in it and yourself, and start praising our Savior for His faithfulness at keeping you.

Do we sin that grace may abound; I hope not, and God does chastise His own for their disobedience, but there is reason besides our salvation which we received when we believed on Jesus to follow Him as Paul did, and that pertains to reward. As Christians, we are judged by our walk.

In Jesus' name.

Salvation, this is all about salvation:

It is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or the gospel of me, pick one.

We come here to praise His Righteousness or our self righteousness, pick one.

We either need a savior (I do), or we save ourselves by being holy and righteous earning salvation by our resume in the law.

Either Jesus is good enough, or we are good enough.

Either it is by grace without the works of the law, or it is by the works of the law (in which case is no longer by grace).

What are we going to boast about?  The cross or the law? His holiness or our holiness?

I am here to boast about what Jesus did for me on Calvary and how he saved me by giving his life on Calvary.

He died so I could live.
He became poor so I could become rich.
He was wounded so I could be healed.
He was forsaken so I could be accepted.

It is quite simple.  And to improve how we keep the law... become dead to the law (Rom 7:4).

Quote from: larry2 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 11:59:08
ObeyTheGospel - Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

Breaking God's law is sin. This is what the Bible says. Do you think you will still get into heaven if you deliberately violate God's law after you are saved?

larry2 - So when you sin, are you doing so accidently, or on purpose? Why do you practice lawlessness? Have you yet attained to the point of "Loving your neighbor as yourself?"

ObeyTheGospel - The Bible doesn't teach that Christians are at liberty to break God's commandments whenever they feel like it.

larry2 - And so when you break the commandments, do you plead "I didn't feel like it, but I did it anyway? Is that willful sin to you? Do you have any concept of the battle Paul presents in Romans Chapter Seven he had with the old, or carnal self, and the new man in Christ? When you really get to the point of believing you're keeping yourself instead of Christ keeping you you'd better take a closer look at that ministration of death; that command that slew Paul, quit glorying in it and yourself, and start praising our Savior for His faithfulness at keeping you.

Do we sin that grace may abound; I hope not, and God does chastise His own for their disobedience, but there is reason besides our salvation which we received when we believed on Jesus to follow Him as Paul did, and that pertains to reward. As Christians, we are judged by our walk.

In Jesus' name.

Everyone sins, even Christians. However, God expects repentance. To deliberately break God's law without repenting is to insult God's mercy. For example, if a Christian decided to deliberately neglect one of the Ten Commandments without repenting then they are a hypocrite i.e, if a Christian was to worship an idol without repenting then you would have to question whether or not they are really saved. True faith will compel a Christian to repent.

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 12:23:42
Salvation, this is all about salvation:

It is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or the gospel of me, pick one.

We come here to praise His Righteousness or our self righteousness, pick one.

We either need a savior (I do), or we save ourselves by being holy and righteous earning salvation by our resume in the law.

Either Jesus is good enough, or we are good enough.

Either it is by grace without the works of the law, or it is by the works of the law (in which case is no longer by grace).

What are we going to boast about?  The cross or the law? His holiness or our holiness?

I am here to boast about what Jesus did for me on Calvary and how he saved me by giving his life on Calvary.

He died so I could live.
He became poor so I could become rich.
He was wounded so I could be healed.
He was forsaken so I could be accepted.

It is quite simple.  And to improve how we keep the law... become dead to the law (Rom 7:4).

In that case you are condemning Jesus and His apostles because they all taught repentance and that we should keep God's commandments. I'm only repeating what the Bible says. If you think this is wrong then take it up with the LORD, not me.

No, the laws have not been destroyed and very much alive to those who find their righteousness in keeping all the laws of God and I mean all 613 of them, which the first ten are also a part of the whole 613 and not a separate set we only use today to live by. So is it that one is lying when they say they keep all the law or are they just ignorant of all the law as no one can keep all 613!!! I will live by grace as the works of the law will save no one unless they follow all the law and since I am not an Israelite and that of a Gentile ancestry I will walk in the love of Gods grace by the shedding of His son Christ Jesus who came to fulfill the law so all can come unto the calling of Gods salvation through faith and His grace and mercy.

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



613 Mitzvot (Mosaic/Levitical laws) broken down in their categories

God - ten commandments
Torah - six commandments
Signs and Symbols - five Commandments
Love and Brotherhood - 14 commandments
The Poor and Unfortunate - 13 commandments
Marriage, Divorce and Family - 23 commandments
Forbidden Sexual Relations - 25 commandments
Times and Seasons - 36 commandments
Dietary Laws - 27 commandments
Business Practices - 14 commandments
Employees, Servants and Slaves - 19 commandments
Vows, Oaths and Swearing - 7 commandments
The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years - 17 commandments
The Court and Judicial Procedure - 36 commandments
Injuries and Damages - 4 commandments
Property and Property Rights - 11 commandments
Criminal Laws - 7 commandments
Punishment and Restitution - 24 commandments
Prophecy - 3 commandments
Idolatry, Idolaters and Idolatrous Practices - 56 commandments
Agriculture and Animal Husbandry - 7 commandments
Clothing - 3 commandments
The Firstborn - 4 commandments
Kohanim and Levites - 30 commandments
T'rumah, Tithes and Taxes - 24 commandments
The Temple, the Sanctuary and Sacred Objects  - 33 commandments
Sacrifices and Offerings - 102 commandments
Ritual Purity and Impurity - 16 commandments
The King - 7 commandments
Nazarites - 10 commandments
Wars - 16 commandments

Same old, same old , same old, same old.

The NT while continuing to admonish all to obey the ten commandments of God to the very end, certainly also addresses changes regarding many of the 613 laws referred to. The following scriptures are quite clear concerning the fact that many of the 613 laws referred to, have indeed been done away with, or are no longer pertinent to ones salvation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matt 23:37-38 (KJV)

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate:Luke 13:34-35 (KJV)

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24 (KJV)

From the above words of our Lord and Savior, it can be easily deduced, that all the laws of Israel pertaining to the sanctuary and it's services would no longer be, or need to be practiced when in fact that sanctuary no longer existed.  Which very thing Christ predicted in the above verses.  First the sanctuary became desolate, that is void of God's presence and purpose once Christ had been sacrificed for sin.  Second in fact it was destroyed altogether by Roman armies. 

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Heb 7:11-28 (KJV)

Obviously, the priesthood and the high priest and all the laws and regulations pertaining to the same, were no longer applicable.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:11-14 (KJV)

Nor were there to by anymore rules or regs concerning animal sacrifices.

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.................................................................................................
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.....................
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Acts 15:1-5, 19&20, 22-29  (KJV)


Now we see that circumcision was also done away with as a necessity for God's people.  In fact, all the laws of Moses were brought into question.  What are the laws of Moses?  Are they not the laws which God allowed to be written by the hand of Moses, as apposed to the hand of God?  Those in fact which were subject to change, and even meant to change once our Lord and Savior fulfilled those things which the sanctuary and it's services pointed to, and the blessings upon the nation of Israel were thus conferred upon all nations and peoples of humanity.  Yet still, the gentiles were commanded to abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication.  All things associated with the many false forms of worship prevalent in their day.

God calls the commandments His many times over (Deut 11:13, Deut 5:29, Deut 5:10, Num 15:40, Lev 26:3, Exod 20:6, Exod 16:28,)

8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4:8-11 (KJV)

The ten commandments do not deal with days, and months, and times, and years.  Though they do address the Sabbath day, it would be a stretch at best to associate the above with one of the ten commandments.  The above is an obvious reference to the days, months, times, and years associated with the ceremonial laws.  Of course those who wish to invalidate the pertinence of the ten commandments today, claim they are a part of the ceremonial laws as well.  Or at least they claim, the Sabbath commandment is.


1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. Gal 5:1-12 (KJV)

Again circumcision is no longer required.  Nor is all of the law to be kept again, but for those who also demand circumcision.  Why then do so many say that one who believes they should keep the ten commandments according to the many NT scriptures which admonish us to do so, must also keep all the rest of the law.  This is not scriptural.  The NT clearly points out that the ten commandments are still to be kept, but the laws of Moses, that is those written by the hand of Moses instead of the hand of God, are no longer all required.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:11-16 (KJV)

Though many like to make the above scriptures in reference to the ten commandments, that they may support their rejection of the fourth, the context of the same proves otherwise.  The contrast brought forth in verse eleven is again between those of Circumcision, and those of Uncircumcision.  Thus again, these scriptures are not addressing the ten commandments, which say nothing about circumcision. 

Verse fifteen itself, being the verse many claim is referring to the ten commandments, specifically states, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances

How many days a week can I work on?  5?  6?  or 7?

How many mornings each week can we gather as a congregation to lift up the name of Jesus and praise the Lord God Creator of the universe?  1? 2? or 7?

Peace

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 12:38:29
No, the laws have not been destroyed and very much alive to those who find their righteousness in keeping all the laws of God and I mean all 613 of them, which the first ten are also a part of the whole 613 and not a separate set we only use today to live by. So is it that one is lying when they say they keep all the law or are they just ignorant of all the law as no one can keep all 613!!! I will live by grace as the works of the law will save no one unless they follow all the law and since I am not an Israelite and that of a Gentile ancestry I will walk in the love of Gods grace by the shedding of His son Christ Jesus who came to fulfill the law so all can come unto the calling of Gods salvation through faith and His grace and mercy.

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



613 Mitzvot (Mosaic/Levitical laws) broken down in their categories

God - ten commandments
Torah - six commandments
Signs and Symbols - five Commandments
Love and Brotherhood - 14 commandments
The Poor and Unfortunate - 13 commandments
Marriage, Divorce and Family - 23 commandments
Forbidden Sexual Relations - 25 commandments
Times and Seasons - 36 commandments
Dietary Laws - 27 commandments
Business Practices - 14 commandments
Employees, Servants and Slaves - 19 commandments
Vows, Oaths and Swearing - 7 commandments
The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years - 17 commandments
The Court and Judicial Procedure - 36 commandments
Injuries and Damages - 4 commandments
Property and Property Rights - 11 commandments
Criminal Laws - 7 commandments
Punishment and Restitution - 24 commandments
Prophecy - 3 commandments
Idolatry, Idolaters and Idolatrous Practices - 56 commandments
Agriculture and Animal Husbandry - 7 commandments
Clothing - 3 commandments
The Firstborn - 4 commandments
Kohanim and Levites - 30 commandments
T'rumah, Tithes and Taxes - 24 commandments
The Temple, the Sanctuary and Sacred Objects  - 33 commandments
Sacrifices and Offerings - 102 commandments
Ritual Purity and Impurity - 16 commandments
The King - 7 commandments
Nazarites - 10 commandments
Wars - 16 commandments

The ceremonial laws written on paper were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14-17), but the Ten Commandments are forever (Luke 16:17).

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 19:33:16
How many days a week can I work on?  5?  6?  or 7?

How many mornings each week can we gather as a congregation to lift up the name of Jesus and praise the Lord God Creator of the universe?  1? 2? or 7?

Peace

You can gather together 7 days a week if you wish. But the Sabbath is the Lord's day, the day that he blessed and made holy.