Christian Forums

Quote1]I take it you are joking about 2 Thess 2: 3,?Confused as you said you believe the Bible.

V3 is the rapture, Please note,
First the falling away, [The rapture].
Then the anti-christ will come.

It mentions a falling away and something about the coming of the Man of Sin. Once could conceivably come to your conclusion, but it is far from absolute. Please tell me in that verse where it specifically says it's referring to the rapture. If it doesn't, then you don't have a case.

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When I said the rapture was taught by the OT Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles, WAy before 1788, You said.
doesI don't think this is true, but I haven't studied it much. In my readings of the Bible, I don't see a lot offered in regards to a pre tribulation rapture, but I haven't looked all that much. It's an aspect of the gospel that n't interest me all that much. I know the LDS reject it according to modern revelations, though.

Because neither you nor the lds don't think t is true, It doesn't stop it being true,
It is true because the Bible says it is.
As I have told you, Your modern day revelations are of the devil and don't agree with the Bible.

Tell me where it mentions the pretribulation rapture, where it plainly lays out the doctrine, and I'll look at it. You'll understand if I don't just accept it because you say so.

QuoteWhat do the lds believe will happen in the last days??.

It would take too long to recount the entire theology surrounding it, but it's not that different than some churches out there. There will be all the signs talked about in the Bible (wars, famine, etc.) Things will get pretty bad, iniquity will cover the land. Hardships will come upon the world and at some point, Christ appears, binds Satan for one thousand years, the millennial reign commence on earth. After that, the theology becomes more LDS specific, as the state of life during the millennium is laid out. This involves the spreading of the true gospel (because there will be righteous non LDS living on the planet also. Over the course of the Millennium, most will accept the truth, and all of the temple work will be completed for those who have died without having the chance to accept the gospel. And after the Millennium, Satan will be loosed for a "little season" and he will eventually be defeated permanently, cast into outer darkness with the other sons of perdition, and the earth itself will undergo a resurrection of sorts and will be transformed into a celestial sphere where the most righteous and obedient Saints will dwell for eternity.

This is the basic outline, but I should put a disclaimer that I went off memory and I may have some of the smaller details incorrect.

Quote[2]Amos wasn't talking about the New Testament Church..STOP TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES..He was talking about the Jews.

And where exactly does it say that?

Quote[3]I am not interpreting the Bible..STOP TELLING LIES, I am telling you what it says,THERE IS A BIG DIFERENCE.

Do you know what the definition of "interpretation" is? Of course you're interpreting it. It's silly to say otherwise. Even if you were correct, it still is an interpretation.

Quote[4]]You said,
Let me say first off, that that would be impossible. The Bible contains no mention of me or how I gained my relationship with Christ.

You have just proved you aren't saved and you don't have a relationship with Jesus.
As the Bible does contain mention of how we get saved and our relationship with Jesus.

You took my quote horribly out of context. You claimed that I was afraid you'd prove my experiences wrong through the Bible. To that, I said it would be impossible because the Bible makes no mention specifically of me or my experiences. Of course the Bible tells you how to be saved, but my point was to show that you can't prove my testimony wrong using the Bible.

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[5]If you believe I am wrong about my way of salvation, YOU SHOULD TELL ME.
How dare you keep me in ignorance, [If you think I am].

I've already laid out for you my position on salvation, have recounted the four primary principles of the Gospel (faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost). Those are the most basic tenets of salvation. There is also the admonition to endure to the end, to do your best to follow God and such. There is also the notion of the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. I've got no problem telling you what our theology is in regards to salvation. My only quip was in sharing a deeply personal testimony to someone who is far too quick to ridicule other people's beliefs. My experiences are personal and deeply sacred and I would not want to open them up to irreverent attacks. Certainly you must see my point of view on this issue.

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[6]You know you aren't saved the Bible way [Which is the only way],Otherwise you would tell me how you got saved.

As I stated above, my reasons for not sharing is because I'd rather my experiences not be marred by disrespectful comments. If you would listen with an air of respect, even if you choose to disbelieve them, I wouldn't mind sharing.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 13:51:46

Quote[1]You said,
That's not what the angel said. He only told Joseph Smith not to join any of the churches because their creeds were abominable, meaning that their beliefs were not in line with what God wanted.

That was an outright lie from the devil, There were Churches teaching the truth.

And I'd expect you to believe that. I obviously don't, though. If I thought the Methodists were right, for example, I'd be Methodist. Suffice it to say, looking through what the Bible teaches, I think the fullness of the gospel can only be had in the LDS church. Remember, though, that we believe all churches have some truth, they just lack the fullness of the gospel.

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[2]Neither the Bible nor Christians lack the fulnes of the gospel,
THAT IS ANOTHER LIE FROM THE DEVIL.

The Bible does not lack the fullness of the gospel; I'll agree with you there. But saying Christians in general is kind of broad. Think of all the thousands of denominations (Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon,  Adventists, etc.) They all teach different things. They can't all be right on every issue. That's impossible. So some have to be lacking in some truth.

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[3]The Bible agrees that the Christian Church is the true Church, God inspired the writere to wrte to the,CHRISTIANS, Not the mormons.

The Christian church is the true church, yes. And the writings were inspired by God for Christians to use. But in my opinion, the true church fell into apostasy and it needed to be restored-hence the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: which is also a Christian church, by the way.

QuoteThe "falling away", in 1 Thess 2: 3, is the Church being taken to heaven before the anti-christ can come.. Please keeo it in it's right context.
And that isn't my opinion..STOP TELLING LIES, It is a original Greek text fact.
PLEASE NOTE,
IT DOESN'T SAY, "FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH"...DOES IT?Confused NO...NO.. False teachers made that lie up.

It doesn't explicitly say falling away from the faith, but it doesn't say what you are claiming either. At least mine is plausible when considering the other text from Amos that supports a falling away. Again, how do you interpret a famine for hearing the word of the Lord?

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Just because you don't believe the pre-trib rapture, Doesn't mean it isn't scriptural.
I THOUGHT YOU SAUD YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE???.

As I've pointed out numerous times, I do believe in the Bible I just have a different interpretation of it. The Pre-trib rapture isn't even a consensus doctrine amongst mainstream Christians, and the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture itself is rather new, as one of the earliest references is from a Baptist Minister in 1788.

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[5]You aren't going by what God revealed to you, It was the devil that revealed the eroneous lds doctrines to you.

Believe that if you wish. I don't need to try and convince you. I am a better expert regarding my spiritual experiences and the prayers I have offered to God. Disregard them if you want to, but it doesn't make them invalid.

QuoteHow did you get a relationship with Jesus??
Tell me your experience.

I wouldn't mind sharing my experiences, but you can see why I might be leery. I'd rather not have my relationship with Christ mired by your accusations that they are actually of the devil or that I am lying. If you are willing to listen with an open mind and refrain from excessive criticism, I would gladly share my testimony of Christ and I how came to have one.

[1]Some lds come to my place and shown me the video of Josepf Smith and the demons, And there was born again Christian Churches, So the devil was telling J Smith porkies.
And if J Smith was awake, He would have told the devil to clear of...FACT.

[2]You said,

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I think the fullness of the gospel can only be had in the LDS church. Remember, though, that we believe all churches have some truth, they just lack the fullness of the gospel.
[End quote]


That is a lie from the devil, The fullness of the gospel is found in God's true Churches, Not the lds.
Please note, You said, "You think", You only think the fullness is in the lds, But I KNOW it isn;t and it is onlu found in God's true Church.

[3]If you read 2 Thess 2, In it's right context, You'll see it is talking about the TRUE Church being raptured to heaven, Then the anti-christ coming.
As I said, It doesn't say, "Falling away from the Faith".Does it??? False religions made that lie up.
The Greek meaning is,
"A departing, A taking away".
See  Caught up in 1 Thess 4: 17. And receive in Jn 14: 3. and Caught away in Acts 8: 39.
They are all the same meaning.....FACT.

As for,
when considering the other text from Amos that supports a falling away. Again, how do you interpret a famine for hearing the word of the Lord?

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Amos was talking about the Jews, Not the Church..stop twisting the Bible.

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[1]Some lds come to my place and shown me the video of Josepf Smith and the demons, And there was born again Christian Churches, So the devil was telling J Smith porkies.
And if J Smith was awake, He would have told the devil to clear of...FACT.

No, it's not fact. It's your opinion. I'm pretty sure LDS missionaries didn't show you videos of demons; you are assuming that's what they were since what he taught goes against your beliefs. I'm not disputing that there were good churches in existence, with lots of good people who will go to heaven. But they lacked the divine authority needed to act in God's name, meaning that the ordinances they performed lacked the seal of approval that is the Holy Priesthood, hence the need for a restoration.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Sun Mar 18, 2012 - 13:59:55

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[1]Some lds come to my place and shown me the video of Josepf Smith and the demons, And there was born again Christian Churches, So the devil was telling J Smith porkies.
And if J Smith was awake, He would have told the devil to clear of...FACT.

No, it's not fact. It's your opinion. I'm pretty sure LDS missionaries didn't show you videos of demons; you are assuming that's what they were since what he taught goes against your beliefs. I'm not disputing that there were good churches in existence, with lots of good people who will go to heaven. But they lacked the divine authority needed to act in God's name, meaning that the ordinances they performed lacked the seal of approval that is the Holy Priesthood, hence the need for a restoration.

[1]The lds missionaries who showed me the video, Told me it was how the mormon faith started.
The start of the mormon faith was devil inspired, And if Joseph Smith knew more about the Bible, He would have told the demons to clear of in the name of Jesus.

[2]Why did the Churches of that time lack Divine authority??, [Now you are being inspired by the devil].
There has always been Churches that have taught the TRUE gospel, healind the sick, cast out demons, spoke in tongues and did miracles by the power and authority of God.

If you check out the TRUE Church history, You'll find that it is true, So those devil that appeared to J Smith were telling lies.

Not only has history proved that there has been power and authority in the TRUE Church
But the Bible proves it as well.
It just proves you or the lds don't know the Bible.

Quote[1]The lds missionaries who showed me the video, Told me it was how the mormon faith started.
The start of the mormon faith was devil inspired, And if Joseph Smith knew more about the Bible, He would have told the demons to clear of in the name of Jesus.

So are you telling me that the LDS missionaries actually told you the church was inspired by the devil? Or did they tell you the actual story and you surmised that it was demons? That makes a big difference.

Quote[2]Why did the Churches of that time lack Divine authority??, [Now you are being inspired by the devil].
There has always been Churches that have taught the TRUE gospel, healind the sick, cast out demons, spoke in tongues and did miracles by the power and authority of God.

Why did the church lack true authority? Because of wickedness and iniquity. The world rejected and killed the apostles. Read the epistles; most of them were written with the intent to correct error that was creeping into the church. But when the errors became too prevalent, when the people turned against the prophets and apostles God had called to the ministry, the true church ceased to exist.

I'm not doubting that miracles still could be performed, as I think faith is a more important ingredient in such a matter. I'm only saying that the fullness of the gospel could not be found as there were no divinely appointed representatives wielding the Holy Priesthood.

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If you check out the TRUE Church history, You'll find that it is true, So those devil that appeared to J Smith were telling lies.

What do you mean by true church history? What sources exist that definitively verify the status of the churches prior to the Restoration other than your word?

QuoteNot only has history proved that there has been power and authority in the TRUE Church
But the Bible proves it as well.
It just proves you or the lds don't know the Bible.

How has history proved your position? We are dealing with matters of faith. None of our claims can be substantiated by actual history or science. We have only our spirit-given testimonies and personal spiritual experiences. People claiming that power and authority has always existed does not make it so. I can claim with equal validity that history and the Bible proves my position, as I think it does.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 14:27:13

Quote[1]The lds missionaries who showed me the video, Told me it was how the mormon faith started.
The start of the mormon faith was devil inspired, And if Joseph Smith knew more about the Bible, He would have told the demons to clear of in the name of Jesus.

So are you telling me that the LDS missionaries actually told you the church was inspired by the devil? Or did they tell you the actual story and you surmised that it was demons? That makes a big difference.

Quote[2]Why did the Churches of that time lack Divine authority??, [Now you are being inspired by the devil].
There has always been Churches that have taught the TRUE gospel, healind the sick, cast out demons, spoke in tongues and did miracles by the power and authority of God.

Why did the church lack true authority? Because of wickedness and iniquity. The world rejected and killed the apostles. Read the epistles; most of them were written with the intent to correct error that was creeping into the church. But when the errors became too prevalent, when the people turned against the prophets and apostles God had called to the ministry, the true church ceased to exist.

I'm not doubting that miracles still could be performed, as I think faith is a more important ingredient in such a matter. I'm only saying that the fullness of the gospel could not be found as there were no divinely appointed representatives wielding the Holy Priesthood.

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If you check out the TRUE Church history, You'll find that it is true, So those devil that appeared to J Smith were telling lies.

What do you mean by true church history? What sources exist that definitively verify the status of the churches prior to the Restoration other than your word?

QuoteNot only has history proved that there has been power and authority in the TRUE Church
But the Bible proves it as well.
It just proves you or the lds don't know the Bible.

How has history proved your position? We are dealing with matters of faith. None of our claims can be substantiated by actual history or science. We have only our spirit-given testimonies and personal spiritual experiences. People claiming that power and authority has always existed does not make it so. I can claim with equal validity that history and the Bible proves my position, as I think it does.

[1]The fact is, There were born again Churches that were teahing God's truth, So the demons who appeared to Joseph Smith were telling lies, AND GOD DOESN'T TELL LIES, So they had to be devils.....FACT.


[2]As I have said, The TRUE Churches historical facts have proved that there has always been Christians using God's power and authority to preach/teach, Heal the sick, cast out devils, speak in tongues, do miracles and lay hands on people for the baptism in the Holy Ghost, Gifts of the Spirit and to call them into the Ministry,.. So why did the devil lie to J Smith and say the authority has to come through the mormon church???.
If you want proof, Check out the TRUE Church history.

Also the Bible proves that the power and Authority has always been in the TRUE Church.
And this was many years before the mormons started,,.. So that is another one of your devils lies.

Can't you see that you are a denomic religion built by the devil.
Can't you see how you have been blinded by the devil.

Quote[1]The fact is, There were born again Churches that were teahing God's truth, So the demons who appeared to Joseph Smith were telling lies, AND GOD DOESN'T TELL LIES, So they had to be devils.....FACT.

You accept it as fact. I don't. It's as simple as that. I still think there were good churches that offered the people many good things, and I am in no way insinuating that they will not be saved, but my belief is that there was an apostasy and that the authority to act in God's name was lost. Let's be honest here, neither of us can claim "FACT" on anything we're discussing. You will obviously believe that there were true churches in existence because you doubt Joseph Smith's story. I would contend against your notion because I accept it. It all boils down to faith here, what each of us believes regarding the matter.

Quote[2]As I have said, The TRUE Churches historical facts have proved that there has always been Christians using God's power and authority to preach/teach, Heal the sick, cast out devils, speak in tongues, do miracles and lay hands on people for the baptism in the Holy Ghost, Gifts of the Spirit and to call them into the Ministry,.. So why did the devil lie to J Smith and say the authority has to come through the mormon church???.
If you want proof, Check out the TRUE Church history.

I've never claimed that miracles ceased or that God didn't answer prayers. I am merely stating that the Priesthood was not in operation according to our beliefs, so baptisms and ordinations performed prior to the restoration are not binding. I'm familiar with Christianity prior to the founding of the LDS church, but there is nothing that PROVES anything. If there is, give me this proof.

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Also the Bible proves that the power and Authority has always been in the TRUE Church.
And this was many years before the mormons started,,.. So that is another one of your devils lies.

Please give me the scriptural support so I can see if you are correct. Off hand, I can think of nothing in the Bible that guarantees that authority would never be lost.

QuoteCan't you see that you are a denomic religion built by the devil.
Can't you see how you have been blinded by the devil.

Are you really going to denigrate your position by throwing out unfounded attacks of demonic origins? The church is not demonic, and has never been. It doesn't even make sense for the devil to found a church that does so much good in the world. If you want to  claim that Smith just made the whole thing up, that at least is a debatable position, but to say that the devil founded a church that stresses the importance of a personal relationship with Christ, that warns of the very real danger Satan poses to man, that places such a heavy emphasis on family and helping those in need, it just doesn't make sense.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Thu Mar 22, 2012 - 09:55:28

Quote[1]The fact is, There were born again Churches that were teahing God's truth, So the demons who appeared to Joseph Smith were telling lies, AND GOD DOESN'T TELL LIES, So they had to be devils.....FACT.

You accept it as fact. I don't. It's as simple as that. I still think there were good churches that offered the people many good things, and I am in no way insinuating that they will not be saved, but my belief is that there was an apostasy and that the authority to act in God's name was lost. Let's be honest here, neither of us can claim "FACT" on anything we're discussing. You will obviously believe that there were true churches in existence because you doubt Joseph Smith's story. I would contend against your notion because I accept it. It all boils down to faith here, what each of us believes regarding the matter.

Quote[2]As I have said, The TRUE Churches historical facts have proved that there has always been Christians using God's power and authority to preach/teach, Heal the sick, cast out devils, speak in tongues, do miracles and lay hands on people for the baptism in the Holy Ghost, Gifts of the Spirit and to call them into the Ministry,.. So why did the devil lie to J Smith and say the authority has to come through the mormon church???.
If you want proof, Check out the TRUE Church history.

I've never claimed that miracles ceased or that God didn't answer prayers. I am merely stating that the Priesthood was not in operation according to our beliefs, so baptisms and ordinations performed prior to the restoration are not binding. I'm familiar with Christianity prior to the founding of the LDS church, but there is nothing that PROVES anything. If there is, give me this proof.

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Also the Bible proves that the power and Authority has always been in the TRUE Church.
And this was many years before the mormons started,,.. So that is another one of your devils lies.

Please give me the scriptural support so I can see if you are correct. Off hand, I can think of nothing in the Bible that guarantees that authority would never be lost.

QuoteCan't you see that you are a denomic religion built by the devil.
Can't you see how you have been blinded by the devil.

Are you really going to denigrate your position by throwing out unfounded attacks of demonic origins? The church is not demonic, and has never been. It doesn't even make sense for the devil to found a church that does so much good in the world. If you want to  claim that Smith just made the whole thing up, that at least is a debatable position, but to say that the devil founded a church that stresses the importance of a personal relationship with Christ, that warns of the very real danger Satan poses to man, that places such a heavy emphasis on family and helping those in need, it just doesn't make sense.

[1]If you watch your own lds video about the start of th mormons, You'll see it is a FACT that there was good born again Churches where people were teaching the truth.
And then you'll find out that the devil did lie to Joseph Smith.

[2]There never has been an apostasy, It is true that some people fell away from the faith, But the majority kept the faith, As Church history and the Bible teaches.

[3]There is no such Biblical Ministry of a "priesthood"..WHERE DID YOU GET THAT LIE FROM? Another of the devils lies I guess.
There is no priest in the new testamen Church apart fronm the fact that every Christian is a priest unto God.
Here are the five fold Ministers that Jesus gave to the Church, Eph 4: 11.
And God set them in the Church, 1 Cor 12: 28.

Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher.....Please note.. NO PRIEST, Or priesthood.
Which just proves how wrong the lds are.

And the above Ministers have always been in the Church, And still are today.
So to say they weren't in operation is another one of your devils lies.


Apart from you checking out the TRUE Church history to prove the power, authority and Ministers have always been in the Church,
Here is the Biblical proof that the Ministers, Power and authority have always been in the Church.
Matt 28: 18--20.  Jn 14: 16.
Eph 2: 6--7, [The actual meaning is,] Throught all ages. The right hand is the place of absolute power and authority, And Christians are seated with Christ and have absolute power and authority, PLEASE NOTE, This is throught all ages.
Eph 3: 20-21...PLEASE NOTE. Throughout ALL ages world without end.
We are still in the "ALL AGES", And the world hasn't ended yet...
The Paul carries on his letter into Ch 4 11-13.. So the Ministers have always been in the Church with the power and authority, And will always be here until the Church is just like Jesus. v13.
And The TRUE Church history will back this up as there has always been people with power and authority.
So you can see how wrong the mormons are.