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OSAS teach the Christian can sin all they want and remain saved.

Non-OSAS teach the Christian can become unsaved if they sin too much or develop a sin pattern.

These seem to be the two main views, but I present a third.

1 John 3:9 states Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

OSAS have a difficult time explaining this verse away as their main premise is that a Christian can (and daily does) sin.  So, they redefine cannot as should not.   

Non-OSAS love using this verse to disprove OSAS.  They however also redefine sin as habitually sin or develop a pattern of sin because they will stand with the OSAS in saying that christians do sin.

The third view is the born again cannot sin.  When God said the born again cannot sin, the third view believes the born again cannot sin. Without redefining the words, the third view looks at the verse and takes God at His Word.  

"But wait" says you.  "I'm born again, yet I sin, therefore God's Word cannot mean what it says."

So, do you really sin?  If so, are you truly born again?  Let's look.

1 John 3:4 states "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Here we have a definition of sin that all three views agree with.  Sin is transgression of the law.  However, placing this definition in 1 John 3:9 shows the only view that would agree is the third view as "Those who are born again cannot transgress the law." OSAS would disagree with that statement completely and non-OSAS will still try to throw habitually in there.

Now, the issue people have with the third view still remains "I'm born again, yet I still transgress the law, so that statement must be untrue."

The response of the third view must always be Scriptural to be correct, so, I bring you these verses...

Romans 8:14 KJV

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The sons of God are led by the Spirit.  If one is not led by the Spirit, he is not a son of God.
Galatians 5:18 KJV

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The third view believes the born again are led by the Spirit all the time as God abides in them.  Therefore, the born again are not under the law.

Romans 4:15 KJV

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Finally the crux!  The born again,  cannot transgress a law they are no longer under.  The born again confirm 1 John 3:9 in that they cannot (meaning impossible, do not have the ability) to sin.

Those with a close relationship with their Father wont want to sin, but because we are imperfect we all do. I dont think that any true believer will think that they can just lead a very sinful lifestyle and that it doesnt matter, because it will affect them badly in the end, because we do reap what we sow.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 16:42:28
Those with a close relationship with their Father wont want to sin, but because we are imperfect we all do. I dont think that any true believer will think that they can just lead a very sinful lifestyle and that it doesnt matter, because it will affect them badly in the end, because we do reap what we sow.

The born again cannot sin according to God through John.  What law can the born again possibly transgress?

Hebrews 10:14 KJV

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Are the born again sanctified and thus perfected, or does Hebrews also need redefined?

A key you do mention is true believers.  All born again believe, but not all who believe are born again.

Luke 8:13 KJV

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 17:08:10
The born again cannot sin according to God through John.  What law can the born again possibly transgress?

Yukerboy,

I would assume, then, that you're saying 1 John 1:8 is directed only to unbelievers:
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8 KJV)

Now, you could try to contend that this is an exhortation for believers to recall that they had all once been sinners, but such an interpretation is problematic at best.

Let us not forget that God's knowledge is infinitely beyond ours. It is always a temptation to want to simplify His word to fit our own, very limited understanding, but this is not where wisdom lies.

From the OP:

Finally the crux!  The born again,  cannot transgress a law they are no longer under.  The born again confirm 1 John 3:9 in that they cannot (meaning impossible, do not have the ability) to sin.
===========================================================

So, uh, the born again can commit wilfull murder and it isn't a sin 'cause they aren't under the Law?  Is that about it? 

I guess that no one is going to heaven then, because there is not a sin-less person out there, saved or un-saved

Did I read the OP as stating that the reason Christians can't sin is because they aren't under the Law?

Quote from: p.rehbein on Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 07:57:46
From the OP:

Finally the crux!  The born again,  cannot transgress a law they are no longer under.  The born again confirm 1 John 3:9 in that they cannot (meaning impossible, do not have the ability) to sin.
===========================================================

So, uh, the born again can commit wilfull murder and it isn't a sin 'cause they aren't under the Law?  Is that about it? 

Uh...I doubt one born of God would do such a thing

Quote from: epiphanius on Wed Jan 18, 2012 - 10:42:02

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 17:08:10
The born again cannot sin according to God through John.  What law can the born again possibly transgress?

Yukerboy,

I would assume, then, that you're saying 1 John 1:8 is directed only to unbelievers:
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8 KJV)

Now, you could try to contend that this is an exhortation for believers to recall that they had all once been sinners, but such an interpretation is problematic at best.

Let us not forget that God's knowledge is infinitely beyond ours. It is always a temptation to want to simplify His word to fit our own, very limited understanding, but this is not where wisdom lies.

1 John 1:8 speaks of ALL people.  We have sin.  It abides in out
r flesh.  Paul confirms this:

Romans 7:17, 20 KJV

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Quote from: p.rehbein on Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 07:57:46
From the OP:

Finally the crux!  The born again,  cannot transgress a law they are no longer under.  The born again confirm 1 John 3:9 in that they cannot (meaning impossible, do not have the ability) to sin.
===========================================================

So, uh, the born again can commit wilfull murder and it isn't a sin 'cause they aren't under the Law?  Is that about it? 

Were the Israelites still chosen when God told them to kill every man, woman, child, and babe in Old Testament times?

The born again cannot sin.  Even if the Holy Spirit leads them to murder, for all is permissible, though not all is profitable or edifying.

Quote from: HRoberson on Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 14:18:55
Did I read the OP as stating that the reason Christians can't sin is because they aren't under the Law?

Yes.  The law of sin and death.

Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

Paul says that if we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Seems clear to me.

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:16:08

Quote from: p.rehbein on Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 07:57:46
From the OP:

Finally the crux!  The born again,  cannot transgress a law they are no longer under.  The born again confirm 1 John 3:9 in that they cannot (meaning impossible, do not have the ability) to sin.
===========================================================

So, uh, the born again can commit wilfull murder and it isn't a sin 'cause they aren't under the Law?  Is that about it? 

Were the Israelites still chosen when God told them to kill every man, woman, child, and babe in Old Testament times?

The born again cannot sin.  Even if the Holy Spirit leads them to murder, for all is permissible, though not all is profitable or edifying.

If you murder someone, don't blame God for it.

The only thing you seem to be fighting is the fact that God only sees Christ in us who believe when He looks at our righteousness; it is Jesus in us that makes us righteous. 1 John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God (Me) sinneth not; but He (Jesus) that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.

Romans 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not lead you to murder.

James 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Exodus 17:16  . . . the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

1 Corinthians 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:16:08

Quote from: p.rehbein on Fri Jan 20, 2012 - 07:57:46
From the OP:

Finally the crux!  The born again,  cannot transgress a law they are no longer under.  The born again confirm 1 John 3:9 in that they cannot (meaning impossible, do not have the ability) to sin.
===========================================================

So, uh, the born again can commit wilfull murder and it isn't a sin 'cause they aren't under the Law?  Is that about it? 

Were the Israelites still chosen when God told them to kill every man, woman, child, and babe in Old Testament times?

The born again cannot sin.  Even if the Holy Spirit leads them to murder, for all is permissible, though not all is profitable or edifying.

......................I rest my case.............

Quote from: HRoberson on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:55:21
Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

If this is an accurate reflection of this view, it is very close to what John was arguing against in his first epistle.

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:44:14

Quote from: HRoberson on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:55:21
Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

If this is an accurate reflection of this view, it is very close to what John was arguing against in his first epistle.

It is John who states this very premise.

Whoever is born of God cannot sin - 1John 3:9

Quote from: Yukerboy on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 10:25:42

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:44:14

Quote from: HRoberson on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:55:21
Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

If this is an accurate reflection of this view, it is very close to what John was arguing against in his first epistle.

It is John who states this very premise.

Whoever is born of God cannot sin - 1John 3:9

You're not reading closely enough. The important part of my last post was this:

QuoteNo matter what they do, they cannot sin.

based on the reasoning that there is simply no longer any published expectation of behavior.

Quote from: HRoberson on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:15:15

Quote from: Yukerboy on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 10:25:42

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:44:14

Quote from: HRoberson on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:55:21
Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

If this is an accurate reflection of this view, it is very close to what John was arguing against in his first epistle.

It is John who states this very premise.

Whoever is born of God cannot sin - 1John 3:9

You're not reading closely enough. The important part of my last post was this:

QuoteNo matter what they do, they cannot sin.

based on the reasoning that there is simply no longer any published expectation of behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin, for it is God who works in them to will and act.  The born again ALWAYS do as they are led.

why do we have to continually confess our sins, if we are sinless

A premium is put toward our conscience, and an evil conscience will keep us from walking with and having God's best for our lives.

Romans 13:5  Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

1 Corinthians 10:25  ". .  eat, asking no question for conscience sake:?
 
Hebrew 10:22  ". . . the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
   
Psalms 103:10. He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psalms 103: As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

You see, it is not God that remembers our sin; it is us that cannot forget and that burden can drag you down. Confess it and forget it.

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 13:14:28

Quote from: HRoberson on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:15:15

Quote from: Yukerboy on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 10:25:42

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:44:14

Quote from: HRoberson on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:55:21
Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

If this is an accurate reflection of this view, it is very close to what John was arguing against in his first epistle.

It is John who states this very premise.

Whoever is born of God cannot sin - 1John 3:9

You're not reading closely enough. The important part of my last post was this:

QuoteNo matter what they do, they cannot sin.

based on the reasoning that there is simply no longer any published expectation of behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin, for it is God who works in them to will and act.  The born again ALWAYS do as they are led.

Well now you've changed your answer. Is it that there is no law that applies to them, or is it that God lives in them and makes them do what they have to do?

Yukerboy: "No matter what they do, they cannot sin, for it is God who works in them to will and act.  The born again ALWAYS do as they are led."

I know many who claim "born again," and claim the "Second Work of Grace" as taught by
John Wesley, but their lives are as mine...sinful.

When you lay 1 John 3:9 along side of verse 24 we see that we must keep His commandments.
If not, His spirit does not live in us.

John is saying in verse 9 that you cannot go on sinning and remain a Christian.
Repentance is a continuing process in the life of a Christian.

This is why we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the
whole world.
And hereby we know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments.
He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not
in him." ( 1 John 2: 1-5 ).

This knocks a big hole in the doctrine of those who have been taught that they "do not sin,"
You are quite aware of this when you look in the mirror.

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 23:43:16

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 13:14:28

Quote from: HRoberson on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:15:15

Quote from: Yukerboy on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 10:25:42

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:44:14

Quote from: HRoberson on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:55:21
Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

If this is an accurate reflection of this view, it is very close to what John was arguing against in his first epistle.

It is John who states this very premise.

Whoever is born of God cannot sin - 1John 3:9

You're not reading closely enough. The important part of my last post was this:

QuoteNo matter what they do, they cannot sin.

based on the reasoning that there is simply no longer any published expectation of behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin, for it is God who works in them to will and act.  The born again ALWAYS do as they are led.

Well now you've changed your answer. Is it that there is no law that applies to them, or is it that God lives in them and makes them do what they have to do?

Answer remains the same.  Both.  The born again are free from the law AND it is God who works their will and actions.

Quote from: pointmade on Mon Jan 30, 2012 - 07:26:25
Yukerboy: "No matter what they do, they cannot sin, for it is God who works in them to will and act.  The born again ALWAYS do as they are led."

I know many who claim "born again," and claim the "Second Work of Grace" as taught by
John Wesley, but their lives are as mine...sinful.

When you lay 1 John 3:9 along side of verse 24 we see that we must keep His commandments.
If not, His spirit does not live in us.

John is saying in verse 9 that you cannot go on sinning and remain a Christian.
Repentance is a continuing process in the life of a Christian.

This is why we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the
whole world.
And hereby we know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments.
He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not
in him." ( 1 John 2: 1-5 ).

This knocks a big hole in the doctrine of those who have been taught that they "do not sin,"
You are quite aware of this when you look in the mirror.

The born again cannot sin.  They love one another and have no gods before God thus fulfilling the law.  Repentance is granted once for all time.  You either have repented or not.

If there is no law that applies to them, why does God need to work within them?

Quote from: Yukerboy on Mon Jan 30, 2012 - 18:33:27

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 23:43:16

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 13:14:28

Quote from: HRoberson on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:15:15

Quote from: Yukerboy on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 10:25:42

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:44:14

Quote from: HRoberson on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 12:55:21
Interesting.

So Christians can't sin, not because they behave perfectly, but simply because nothing outlaws their poor behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin.

Is that the idea?

If this is an accurate reflection of this view, it is very close to what John was arguing against in his first epistle.

It is John who states this very premise.

Whoever is born of God cannot sin - 1John 3:9

You're not reading closely enough. The important part of my last post was this:

QuoteNo matter what they do, they cannot sin.

based on the reasoning that there is simply no longer any published expectation of behavior.

No matter what they do, they cannot sin, for it is God who works in them to will and act.  The born again ALWAYS do as they are led.

Well now you've changed your answer. Is it that there is no law that applies to them, or is it that God lives in them and makes them do what they have to do?

Answer remains the same.  Both.  The born again are free from the law AND it is God who works their will and actions.

Well, if there is no law that applies to them, what good is it, exactly that God works in them?

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 15:44:31
The third view is the born again cannot sin.  When God said the born again cannot sin, the third view believes the born again cannot sin. Without redefining the words, the third view looks at the verse and takes God at His Word.  

"But wait" says you.  "I'm born again, yet I sin, therefore God's Word cannot mean what it says."

So, do you really sin?  If so, are you truly born again?  Let's look.

1 John 3:4 states "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Here we have a definition of sin that all three views agree with.  Sin is transgression of the law.  However, placing this definition in 1 John 3:9 shows the only view that would agree is the third view as "Those who are born again cannot transgress the law." OSAS would disagree with that statement completely and non-OSAS will still try to throw habitually in there.

Actually that is an ADDITION to the definition of sin. 

At its base "sin" is an archery term meaning to aim at the target but miss the mark.  Both the primary Hebrew in the OT and the primary Greek word in the NT mean that.  In fact, prior to 1600, it meant that in english as well. (so it was an obvious word choice for the KJV translators)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." Rom 3.23

Can you see the archery allusion in this verse? You aim at the goal (God's glory) but fall short.

So any way you miss the mark, any way you fall short, is sin. PERIOD.

So does that mean that as a saved christian you CAN sin or that any one who falls short in any way is NOT saved?

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 08:12:00

Quote from: Yukerboy on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 15:44:31
The third view is the born again cannot sin.  When God said the born again cannot sin, the third view believes the born again cannot sin. Without redefining the words, the third view looks at the verse and takes God at His Word.  

"But wait" says you.  "I'm born again, yet I sin, therefore God's Word cannot mean what it says."

So, do you really sin?  If so, are you truly born again?  Let's look.

1 John 3:4 states "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Here we have a definition of sin that all three views agree with.  Sin is transgression of the law.  However, placing this definition in 1 John 3:9 shows the only view that would agree is the third view as "Those who are born again cannot transgress the law." OSAS would disagree with that statement completely and non-OSAS will still try to throw habitually in there.

Actually that is an ADDITION to the definition of sin. 

At its base "sin" is an archery term meaning to aim at the target but miss the mark.  Both the primary Hebrew in the OT and the primary Greek word in the NT mean that.  In fact, prior to 1600, it meant that in english as well. (so it was an obvious word choice for the KJV translators)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." Rom 3.23

Can you see the archery allusion in this verse? You aim at the goal (God's glory) but fall short.

So any way you miss the mark, any way you fall short, is sin. PERIOD.

So does that mean that as a saved christian you CAN sin or that any one who falls short in any way is NOT saved?

Dave,

A good explanation of sin thank you.

However, I prefer not to use the term "Saved Christian"...esp when reading "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Peter 4:18)

My words cannot convey how far short we fall compared to how high the Glory of the Almighty shines.

Maybe as far as the east if from the west?

Insight

Quote from: Yukerboy on Mon Jan 30, 2012 - 18:36:49
The born again cannot sin.  They love one another and have no gods before God thus fulfilling the law.  Repentance is granted once for all time.  You either have repented or not.

Then I suppose *nobody* is really born again!

Yukerboy, it's great to discuss ideas, but you're not really dicussing anything. People have challenged you to explain what you mean, but you just chuckle at us and repeat your position as if its meaning were self evident. The problem here is that without the necessary qualifications, what you're saying is so flatly contradicting of human experience that it is of no value whatsoever.

I can tell you this: narcissists love to declare themselves free of all sin, so that they can free themselves from having to live up to any standard other than what they set for themselves. A "Christian" narcissist is one who uses Scripture to justify this behavior.

Real Christians know they need to keep the Gospel of Christ before their eyes and measure themselves against it. On the one hand, they belong to Christ and are completely justified in Him, but on the other hand, the more they know Christ the more they see their own shortcomings, and the more they overcome these shortcomings the better they know Christ!

Let me ask you this: since you seem to be advocating a *static* concept of Christianity, why is God's word so full of exhortations?