Christian Forums

Hi all,

I was wondering if you could give some advice around a problem I've been having:

Basically, over this last month I've been seeing this wonderful guy, who in many ways is all I could wish for. The only problem is that he's not a full believer. He does have some belief in a higher power, but he does not believe in a god as it were, and has stronger belief in the powers of logic and fate. He did used to be a Christian as I am, but went through a really tough time a few years ago. Since then, he has never returned to his previous beliefs, and has told me that he could 'never go back there'. He is completely respectful of me and my faith, and even encourages me in it. He has agreed to no sex before marriage, as he knows how important it is to me. He has been so incredibly supportive and respectful of me, that at first I swept any reservations I might have had under the carpet, as I was so wrapped up in how wonderful he was. But I can't seem to shake off the feeling that this isn't quite right (my mum in particular warned me to be careful). Sometimes I think it is, sometimes I think it isn't. I can't seem to make up my mind either way. I have been in a relationship with a non-Christian before, and found it so hard I swore I would never go back there. But with this new guy it's been different. It's been a lot easier for me to share my beliefs with him, and to know that he understands. However, the fact that he said he doesn't think he can ever fully believe again breaks my heart, as it makes me feel that God is telling me to let him go.

Anyway, any advice would be greatly appreciated! :)

Hi Godlove1801 and welcome. I would definitely say no because this is your life we're talking about, and the slightest doubt is of great concern.

I posted the following thread on godly courtship, and I hope it is of great value to you.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/christian-singles-forum/principles-of-godly-courtship-web-links/msg1054620783/#msg1054620783

Hi Godlove
I agree with Larry. Its only been one month, so its best that you end it now before you get in any deeper. Paul talks about light not being able to mix with darkness, and not being uneaqually yoked with a non believer. If you carry on seeing this man, it will be far harder to end it further down the line. If he becomes a believer then you can go out with him, but until that happens, its heading for disaster and heart break.What happens in you both fall in love and later on he wants to marry you? Far harder to end it then.

I have 3 close friends who are all married to non believers and its so hard for them. Ok he may be open to you talking about it now right at the beginning of the relationship, but one year on, or five years on, things can change.
Dont compromise on what you know to be the right thing. I think you really know the answer anyway. Wait for a godly Christian young man, dont compromise on what you know to be right.

Hi!

I mention this on my blog today - http://www.unitechristiandating.co.uk/blog/christian-dating-websites-are-they-really-christian/

Issues of sex before marriage, living together, divorce, children, family, church, money, debt, drinking and much more, all come up when a Christian has a relationship with a non-Christian.

They come up to in Christian relationships, but if both partners believe in the truth of the Bible, pray and seek God, then these issues can be worked through with His help.

Ecclesiastes 4:12 says "A cord of three strands is not easily broken

I agree with everyone else. It's easy to justify to yourself to keep the relationship going as you 2 grow close, and then it just gets harder and harder. I did the same thing and ended up marrying my unbeliever. I think he's a great individual and husband and father but I miss on the other hand not having a Christian family.  I think the main problem is that we aren't supposed to, it's a sin. I wish you the very best!!

I think the lord works in mysterious ways. If he has brought a good man into your life then don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Take your time and get to know him, grow with him or grow apart as the situation dictates. I can speak from personal experience in this matter, its not always as clear cut as reading a bible verse to find your answer. When I met my girlfriend I was well off the path of where I should have been. It was because of her and seeing her faith that I found my footing again, all the while her christian friends were saying much the same as this forum has to you. I'm not perfect by any means, but we have grown together and closer to god through each other. I'm not saying that its going to be that way for everyone, but its something to keep in mind as you move forward.

Quote from: the_distance_betweenus on Fri Mar 23, 2012 - 01:52:21
I think the lord works in mysterious ways. If he has brought a good man into your life then don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Take your time and get to know him, grow with him or grow apart as the situation dictates. I can speak from personal experience in this matter, its not always as clear cut as reading a bible verse to find your answer. When I met my girlfriend I was well off the path of where I should have been. It was because of her and seeing her faith that I found my footing again, all the while her christian friends were saying much the same as this forum has to you. I'm not perfect by any means, but we have grown together and closer to god through each other. I'm not saying that its going to be that way for everyone, but its something to keep in mind as you move forward.

I agree. And a friend of mine posted a quote on facebook that said "Never base your life decisions on advice from people who don't have to deal with the results." Now, for me, that doesn't mean that others cannot give you good advice, because most people's intentions are well. However, have you consulted God? Have you asked Him to direct you and your friend/man with this relationship? God does work in mysterious ways. He has seen the goodness of the Lord. So, he knows. And while you cannot change him, if you choose to, you can love Him and allow God to do the rest. Only if you choose to, of course. No one can make the decision for you, but know that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord. If you believe God has allowed you to be invovled with this man, then ask Him to show you what to do. Time will either bring you together, or farther apart....just my opinion, God bless you

Quote from: IamStefanie on Fri Mar 23, 2012 - 17:41:02

Quote from: the_distance_betweenus on Fri Mar 23, 2012 - 01:52:21
I think the lord works in mysterious ways. If he has brought a good man into your life then don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Take your time and get to know him, grow with him or grow apart as the situation dictates. I can speak from personal experience in this matter, its not always as clear cut as reading a bible verse to find your answer. When I met my girlfriend I was well off the path of where I should have been. It was because of her and seeing her faith that I found my footing again, all the while her christian friends were saying much the same as this forum has to you. I'm not perfect by any means, but we have grown together and closer to god through each other. I'm not saying that its going to be that way for everyone, but its something to keep in mind as you move forward.

I agree. And a friend of mine posted a quote on facebook that said "Never base your life decisions on advice from people who don't have to deal with the results." Now, for me, that doesn't mean that others cannot give you good advice, because most people's intentions are well. However, have you consulted God? Have you asked Him to direct you and your friend/man with this relationship? God does work in mysterious ways. He has seen the goodness of the Lord. So, he knows. And while you cannot change him, if you choose to, you can love Him and allow God to do the rest. Only if you choose to, of course. No one can make the decision for you, but know that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord. If you believe God has allowed you to be invovled with this man, then ask Him to show you what to do. Time will either bring you together, or closer apart....just my opinion, God bless you

I really get this, ... but... BUT... love can sneak up on you fast and things happen. I don't think those emotions should be messed with. You can't think clearly when you've fallen for someone and then it becomes rationalizations like 'I'm witnessing to him'. That's why, in my opinion, its so important to make these decisions beforehand. Do you think its okay to marry a nonbeliever? If not, I don't think you should be dating one either. You can share the gospel without cultivating romantic feelings and dating the person.

I'm putting this out there just in case there is someone out there who was where I was not so long ago, wondering, what harm can it do just to *date* him a little?

                                                           




                                                    NO

I agree with Stefani and her advice of if you believe God has allowed you to be invovled with this man, then ask Him to show you what to do.

I really get this, ... but... BUT... love can sneak up on you fast and things happen. I don't think those emotions should be messed with. You can't think clearly when you've fallen for someone and then it becomes rationalizations like 'I'm witnessing to him'. That's why, in my opinion, its so important to make these decisions beforehand. Do you think its okay to marry a nonbeliever? If not, I don't think you should be dating one either. You can share the gospel without cultivating romantic feelings and dating the person.

I'm putting this out there just in case there is someone out there who was where I was not so long ago, wondering, what harm can it do just to *date* him a little?
[/quote]

What harm has it done to you Deborah? You say your 'non-believer' is a great husband and father to your children. I think that in itself is such a rarity that it should be considered a cherished treasure. Those who seek to undermine such a thing are not greatful for the blessings they've received. I would like to believe that you, as someone who has been down this road, would be infinitely more understanding and actually defend the position of those who choose to take the same path as you've found happiness down that road.

Something to think about:

"For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband." (cf 1 Cor 7:14) It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this "consecration" should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.  Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion."
-from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (yeah, yeah, yeah --- doesn't mean this aint good advice...  )

In Christ,
Scott

Quote from: the_distance_betweenus on Sun Mar 25, 2012 - 19:26:54


I really get this, ... but... BUT... love can sneak up on you fast and things happen. I don't think those emotions should be messed with. You can't think clearly when you've fallen for someone and then it becomes rationalizations like 'I'm witnessing to him'. That's why, in my opinion, its so important to make these decisions beforehand. Do you think its okay to marry a nonbeliever? If not, I don't think you should be dating one either. You can share the gospel without cultivating romantic feelings and dating the person.

I'm putting this out there just in case there is someone out there who was where I was not so long ago, wondering, what harm can it do just to *date* him a little?

What harm has it done to you Deborah? You say your 'non-believer' is a great husband and father to your children. I think that in itself is such a rarity that it should be considered a cherished treasure. Those who seek to undermine such a thing are not greatful for the blessings they've received. I would like to believe that you, as someone who has been down this road, would be infinitely more understanding and actually defend the position of those who choose to take the same path as you've found happiness down that road.
[/quote]

it's actually not that simple. First to consider is that we are not supposed to marry unbelievers, it's a sin. Second are the reasons I think the Lord has forbidden it... it creates a rift. If you don't share the same basic perspective on values and how the world works it endangers the relationship, one that often involves children. There are statistics to back this up... 'mixed' religion marriages are more likely to end in divorce.

Also is the pressure, often or even always unintentional, but there nonetheless, to bend on beliefs and values. My hubby is respectful, even has gone to church with me, but I also know that he thinks my religion is silly (look, I've gathered this over time). Or consider the fact that I was fully committed to being chaste before marriage, and after I dated him for a while not only crossed boundaries I hadn't intended to, but the reason we got married is because I got pregnant. Yes I know this happen to Christian couples too, but it makes it harder when both parties aren't committed to the same values and are led by the Spirit. Or how about family structure? I believe the husband is the spiritual head of the wife, ideally taking the lead in bringing the family closer to God. Kinda hard for that to happen if hubby doesn't think that God even exists. Now think about what to tell the children. Did we get here by unguided evolution? Hubby not only thinks so but feels strongly about that. Mom thinks God created humans with souls. How about an afterlife? nah, after we die our brain rots and that's it, but mom thinks that if we are saved through Christ we'll live forever with Him. Now confound that with my worry about my husband's salvation. Makes those occasional worries about his safety that much more interesting!

Now I'm saying this to you because you've obviously read my praises to my husband, so I am no going to repeat those good things here. but to say there is nothing at all I regret about being married to a nonbeliever would not be true.

Deborah, it isn't a sin. If you're deriving it from the same section of the bible that speaks specifically to relationships, one could just as easily say that marriage is a sin in itself. I could very well be wrong, but I dont recall it being mentioned as a sin. If I am please point me to that verse/book.

I read a statistic that close to 50% of marriages end in divorce as it stands. And yes, while there is a greater liklihood of interfaith marriages to end that way, thats not really saying much. The same study that I read shows that athiests and agnostics were more likely to NOT get divorced than Christians. I don't think that means we should all go the way of the non believer.

secondly, a code of morality doesn't necessarily have to be bible based to be effective or reasonable. A person that may have never heard of the bible and lives by biblical standards is no less a good man for that. I actually got into a discussion recently regarding morality and the bible, and it boils down to this question. If a person is afraid of going to hell and that is what drives them to do good, are they as good as the person who does so on his own accord expecting nothing from the afterlife? Theres no need to answer this question, its just something thats worth considering.

Third, the family dynamic isnt exactly what you want. You want the father to be the religious backbone for the family. Theres nothing wrong with that desire, however, its not the middle ages anymore. At the time that was put forth, women weren't allowed to learn how to read and even a good chunk of men were illiterate. Now, as equals, you're able to read and formulate ideas and opinions in an open format. Theres no real reason why a woman cant be the religious backbone in this day and age besides simple traditional thinking, which in itself is flawed and sexist.

As far as what to tell the children, teach them about science and faith. They will learn it from somewhere eventually, this, however, gives them the unique chance to learn both sides of the coin in the same household while growing up. I know this is probably not the answer that you want in this situation, but I see it as a mixed blessing personally. If they believe they believe, if they don't then all the faith from both sides would have just been indoctrination and not true belief. A person that comes to jesus on his own is not only more likely to keep with the faith, but generally abides to it with more fervor than others.

I think Scott and the distance between us are giving excellent advice but of course no one say's it better than God.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
  "'The parents eat sour grapes,
  and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
  who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
  or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
  or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
  but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
  but gives his food to the hungry
  and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
  or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
  and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
  and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
  he will surely live,
           declares the Sovereign LORD.

Hi distance. As to being 'unequally yoked' there is this verse: 2 cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Maybe you think it's sexist, but the Bible does lay out differing roles for men and women in the family. Here are a couple verses that come to mind:

1 cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

I don't think any of this means that women are less in the eyes of God (we also know there is neither 'male nor female in Christ') but God has made us, generally speaking, for different family roles. Keeping this in mind makes it clearer why marrying unbelievers can be a problem... the husband is the head regardless if he realizes that is the case. All this goes like it should when both parties are on the same page. In the one case, if the husband is unbelieving, then not being in Christ loving his wife as Christ loves the church (eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her) is probably not going to resonate with him. If the wife does not believe, it's a lot more unlikely she'd be able to accept her husband as her head.

To make this a little more concrete, I'll share with you that I grew up in a Christian family. I saw my parents pray together often, bless meals, study the bible together, discuss spiritual growth together, lift each other up and bolster each other in their quest to be better servants of God. They are *equally* yoked, they are in lockstep with each other, share a common view and common goals, and it makes their marriage richer. If I want to discuss spiritual matters with my hubby (God bless him) I'd better read up on apologetics and learn some philosophy! ... and I have.

As to children... they'll find plenty of opposition in the world already. They don't need that from their parents in order to be 'free' to make their own decisions. With all the influences out there counter Christianity that's the last thing they need if we are talking about their thriving and growing in the Lord.

Hi Deborah, I surely respect your view and the things that you have learned and are learning from your marriage and sharing them with us. However, I must say that I don't believe marrying an unbeliever is sin. I do agree though, that it can cause issues in regards to beliefs if one believes that only the husband should be the spiritual head. I ask you this question, don't both husband and wife submit to God? What I am saying is (and distance pointed that out), you have the authority to teach you children, right? Not to discredit their father, but to show the kids God's love. And as distance pointed out, there must have been believers marrying unbelievers because this too was mentioned in the Word. And it said that the unbelieving spouse will be made holy, or consecrated, through their spouse. So, see, some people will be good together, if there is love. God is already in this through you and any other believer of Christ who is married to an unbeliever. That's what I believer... And, while it may be BEST to not get involved with an unbeliever to begin with (I can surely agree with that!), it does happen, and ALL things do work together for the good of THOSE WHO LOVE THE LORD!!! Stay strong Mrs Deborah with God's love...

Quote from: IamStefanie on Wed Mar 28, 2012 - 20:33:32
Hi Deborah, I surely respect your view and the things that you have learned and are learning from your marriage and sharing them with us. However, I must say that I don't believe marrying an unbeliever is sin. I do agree though, that it can cause issues in regards to beliefs if one believes that only the husband should be the spiritual head. I ask you this question, don't both husband and wife submit to God? What I am saying is (and distance pointed that out), you have the authority to teach you children, right? Not to discredit their father, but to show the kids God's love. And as distance pointed out, there must have been believers marrying unbelievers because this too was mentioned in the Word. And it said that the unbelieving spouse will be made holy, or consecrated, through their spouse. So, see, some people will be good together, if there is love. God is already in this through you and any other believer of Christ who is married to an unbeliever. That's what I believer... And, while it may be BEST to not get involved with an unbeliever to begin with (I can surely agree with that!), it does happen, and ALL things do work together for the good of THOSE WHO LOVE THE LORD!!! Stay strong Mrs Deborah with God's love...

Hi Stefanie.... don't get me wrong, I agree I can teach our kids about the gospel, just as I expect he'll expose them to his views on the matter. And yes, I think we can have a good, fulfilling marriage, but it's *inspite* of the mixed faith issue, because I don't think that adds to it and is something we both have to work at to overcome in our mutual desire to be otherwise united. So when others ask "Deb, you seem to have a fine marriage, so what's the problem with dating unbelievers" the stuff I said above stands.

As far as marrying unbelievers go, yes, there are verses that deal with what to do when you are married to an unbeliever, but if you look at it, it's because people already married were converting. That's why when a conversion occurs, for example, if the unbelieving spouse wishes to depart let him (or her), otherwise the family is consecrated by the believer, unbelieving spouses can be won over, etc. Nowhere does it say it's okay for someone who is already a Christian to marry an unbeliever. The ideal is spouses agreeing in the gospel, I think we are *supposed to* be aiming for that ideal, and to willingly not I do think is sinful (or as another poster elsewhere pointed out, to sin is to miss the target, this is missing the target).

I really appreciate the gentle tone of your post so I really hope I don't come across as combative, I don't feel that way. But it's something I've given a lot of thought to and feel I ought to share with others.

Quote from: Deborah4God on Wed Mar 28, 2012 - 12:24:27
Hi distance. As to being 'unequally yoked' there is this verse: 2 cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Maybe you think it's sexist, but the Bible does lay out differing roles for men and women in the family. Here are a couple verses that come to mind:

1 cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

I don't think any of this means that women are less in the eyes of God (we also know there is neither 'male nor female in Christ') but God has made us, generally speaking, for different family roles. Keeping this in mind makes it clearer why marrying unbelievers can be a problem... the husband is the head regardless if he realizes that is the case. All this goes like it should when both parties are on the same page. In the one case, if the husband is unbelieving, then not being in Christ loving his wife as Christ loves the church (eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her) is probably not going to resonate with him. If the wife does not believe, it's a lot more unlikely she'd be able to accept her husband as her head.

To make this a little more concrete, I'll share with you that I grew up in a Christian family. I saw my parents pray together often, bless meals, study the bible together, discuss spiritual growth together, lift each other up and bolster each other in their quest to be better servants of God. They are *equally* yoked, they are in lockstep with each other, share a common view and common goals, and it makes their marriage richer. If I want to discuss spiritual matters with my hubby (God bless him) I'd better read up on apologetics and learn some philosophy! ... and I have.

As to children... they'll find plenty of opposition in the world already. They don't need that from their parents in order to be 'free' to make their own decisions. With all the influences out there counter Christianity that's the last thing they need if we are talking about their thriving and growing in the Lord.

I Apologize both for the time it took me to get back with you regarding this and for the combative nature of the way I respond. It truly isn't meant to be offensive I just find it easier to address things in a point by point manner.

In 2 corinthians  when it speaks of not being yoked to a non believer, I think theres room for interpretation in that verse. He goes on to say that (6:16)'what agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.' In my opinion that doesnt necessarily mean athiests, but is taken to mean differing gods (idols). At least that would be a literal interpretation of the comparisons drawn.   

On the topic of sexism, it is defined as 'attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.' By definition its sexist, this isn't just my opinion. My opinion however coincides with it. I think women should have equal opportunity both in the church and the household to lead in faith based matters as they are more than qualified to lead in every other matter. I think this is more a matter of individual family dynamics. If you aren't in agreeance with the dynamic as it stands, obviously theres going to be issues. If both parties wish to be the head of the household, or wish the other to be the head, then you're going to run into problems. However, if they are both on the same page as far as who plays what role, everything runs smoothly. This is a matter best left to individual couples in my opinion. I don't think that a woman is any less christian because she is the spiritual backbone of the family whether she wishes to or it is forced upon her. Nor do I think a man is any less christian for allowing her to do so. God has given us each our own gifts, who is to say that in one instance a wifes gift of interpreting and understanding the bible is not more than her husbands? In that instance, why should the man take the spiritual lead role in the family? She would have a better ability to convey the meaning to her children than her husband.

This goes back to what I said in my previous post, that the 'family dynamic isn't exactly what you want. You want the father to be the religious backbone to the family, and theres nothing wrong with that.' however, theres nothing less christian about it being the other way around, which is what I was trying (poorly) to convey. I wasn't trying to attack your desire or belittle it. You came from a household where that was the case, and you're entitled to want that in your own marriage, but to say that there is but one way to approach a marriage and have it work is flawed. A marriage works because the two participants are (as you said) on the same page.

As far as the children are concerned, I think its important for them to believe, not because its what they know, but because they have faith in it. I would rather their belief be sincere than to pay lip service to the Lord. I know that I would be concerned for their souls, but thats going to fall to them in the end regardless. You can raise a child in faith and they turn away from it, just as easily as if you raise a child without and they find it. As a parent, you don't get to live their life for them, but guide them and advise them, but in the end, its their choice whether to follow your lead.

distance, no worries! -take your time. As to the tone, it's fine. I don't mind disagreement and I've gotten a lot better at it, and not taking it personally, the past year or so. I hope *I* don't come across as too combative, that is totally not my intention here, even if I strongly disagree with certain things.

So maybe I can proceed in this spirit: prov 27:17 Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.

I think I should rephrase something. A marriage can do very well, in worldly terms, with the wife as the leader, spiritually and otherwise. The couple could be marries for fifty years, get along, enjoy each other's company, and every other marker people typically think about a good marriage being. The way it's not a good marriage is according to what the bible says is the standard. I pulled out a few verses on you, I could pull out more. Suppose they fit the definition of being sexist, I'd have to ask, so what? If this is what the Bible appears to be saying, and I believe that what God wants me to do is in the Bible, then I should be sexist in the manner the Bible prescribes. Following it may make previously harmonious relationships difficult, even, but I believe God wants us to be challenged, for our own good and our growth in our Christian life.

I also noticed you seem to think that this implies the woman is 'less than' in the family or church. That is not true. Women are equally valued in God's kingdom, equally sinful, equally saved by Christ's sacrifice and redeemed, and so forth. Women ought to cultivate their own connection to God and that is where our loyalty ought to be first and foremost. But none of that means that women don't have different roles to play. By the way, this isn't just a challenge on women, if anything, it's a greater challenge on the man in my opinion. Men have a greater responsibility on their shoulders. So this isn't about what I want, this is about what the Bible seems to say and what I believe God wants.

Now as to the verse, there weren't atheists, really, in Paul's day, but I think it's safe to take unbeliever as that, not a believer. That those people typically consisted of pagans in his day doesn't seem to affect his point.

And as to the children... I think most children naturally want to please their parents, well, up to teenagers anyway. It can be helpful to see mom and dad disagree sometimes, and resolve that difference naturally. Where that isn't so helpful is when mom and dad disagree on the most basic, fundamental rules about life, or even if life has value and meaning! Knowing that there are other ways of thinking and doing things? Sure, but I don't think they need to feel divided loyalties because their parents disagree, they can figure that out by exposure to people and ideas that are different from theirs. They can develop deep and abiding faith that way that doesn't put them in an awkward position between mom and dad.

Quote from: Deborah4God on Thu Mar 29, 2012 - 19:02:26
distance, no worries! -take your time. As to the tone, it's fine. I don't mind disagreement and I've gotten a lot better at it, and not taking it personally, the past year or so. I hope *I* don't come across as too combative, that is totally not my intention here, even if I strongly disagree with certain things.

So maybe I can proceed in this spirit: prov 27:17 Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.

I think I should rephrase something. A marriage can do very well, in worldly terms, with the wife as the leader, spiritually and otherwise. The couple could be marries for fifty years, get along, enjoy each other's company, and every other marker people typically think about a good marriage being. The way it's not a good marriage is according to what the bible says is the standard. I pulled out a few verses on you, I could pull out more. Suppose they fit the definition of being sexist, I'd have to ask, so what? If this is what the Bible appears to be saying, and I believe that what God wants me to do is in the Bible, then I should be sexist in the manner the Bible prescribes. Following it may make previously harmonious relationships difficult, even, but I believe God wants us to be challenged, for our own good and our growth in our Christian life.

I also noticed you seem to think that this implies the woman is 'less than' in the family or church. That is not true. Women are equally valued in God's kingdom, equally sinful, equally saved by Christ's sacrifice and redeemed, and so forth. Women ought to cultivate their own connection to God and that is where our loyalty ought to be first and foremost. But none of that means that women don't have different roles to play. By the way, this isn't just a challenge on women, if anything, it's a greater challenge on the man in my opinion. Men have a greater responsibility on their shoulders. So this isn't about what I want, this is about what the Bible seems to say and what I believe God wants.

Now as to the verse, there weren't atheists, really, in Paul's day, but I think it's safe to take unbeliever as that, not a believer. That those people typically consisted of pagans in his day doesn't seem to affect his point.

And as to the children... I think most children naturally want to please their parents, well, up to teenagers anyway. It can be helpful to see mom and dad disagree sometimes, and resolve that difference naturally. Where that isn't so helpful is when mom and dad disagree on the most basic, fundamental rules about life, or even if life has value and meaning! Knowing that there are other ways of thinking and doing things? Sure, but I don't think they need to feel divided loyalties because their parents disagree, they can figure that out by exposure to people and ideas that are different from theirs. They can develop deep and abiding faith that way that doesn't put them in an awkward position between mom and dad.

Deborah, I think we have to agree to disagree on these points. I don't think either of us is wrong persay, but neither of us is going to be right to the other. My belief that women are painted as having lesser roles in the church is pretty steadfast in the simple fact that there are no women priests, no ministers, no spiritual leaders. This to me indicates a sexist approach to faith within the realm of the christian church. As I stated in my last post, if a woman has been blessed with clarity of the bible and christian morals moreso than men, she shouldn't be relegated to be just a follower. She should be a leader to others. The church doesn't allow for this to happen, which saddens me greatly.

My sister in law has just had to take the very painful decision to break up with her boyfriend of 6 years because
a)he hasnt converted,
and
b) he refuses to marry her and just wants to live together.
She knows now that she never should have gone out with him, and now that she has become stronger in her faith she KNOWS that God wanted her to leave him.
What has light to do with darkness? If you are both walking in the opposite direction, its very hard to have a united marriage. A lady who I know has just lost her husband. He never became a believer, and she is now having to face the fact that her husband is probably in hell.
If we disobey God then sadly there are consequenses. Its a very unwise thing to do.

distance- okay. I'd be happy to talk about this issue later on if you want, but I'm fine leaving it there for now.

chosenone - I'm very sorry to hear about your friend! I know that is something that is on my mind, particularly if hubby is late or something, what happened if he died right now? It's a very very very hard thought.

I think it is very unwise to marry a non-believer. Husbands and wives have different roles which they should abide by. If a husband is not fulfilling his roles, then it can be difficult for the wife to submit to him. Remember, nowhere in the Bible does it say, "Only submit to your husband if he is willing to die for you, or respects you." In the same way, the Bible doesn't say, "Husbands, you must be willing to die for your wives, but only if they submit to you."

We reap what we sow: If people decide to get married to an unbeliever, they are taking a huge risk. If somewhere down the line things don't work out very well, you can't use the excuse and say, "Well, I'm no longer going to submit or obey my husband because he does not honor or respect me." You will reap what you sow.

My point is that marriage today is under attack. Even people in the church often don't take marriage seriously, and many end up getting unlawfully divorced. You have to be careful whom you marry. I think it is extremely foolish for a Christian to get married to an unbeliever. But it's your choice at the end of the day. Choose wisely!

Obey, just as any difference can cause its own issues, so can marrying someone that differs in faith. This goes without saying. While I'm personally of the opinion that it can work, and happily so, it depends on the people involved.

Personally, I don't think that the obey, submit, etc works in a marriage. It can depending on the dynamic, but I'm more of the opinion that understanding and compromising goes much further. I think its perfectly acceptable for a woman to not want to obey someone who doesn't respect or honor them, but I'm not of the mind that a man should disrespect his wife if she doesnt obey him. I want everyone to seriously look at this and realize that this mindset sets every woman up to be in an abusive relationship. I'm not saying that its the only result of this sort of dynamic, but it certainly makes it easier.

Marriage is under attack in the states, but its more a cultural difference than one of spirituality. We are a very self centered society hinged on instant gratification. In the east (China and Japan) society places more emphasis on the family unit being happy together, than an individuals wants and needs.

hey there!

Lot's of great guys out there God will send you the right one everyone who said no is right God said do not be equally yoked. God give commands because He loves you. The heart is deceitful the bible says times like this listen to Gods word. But i admire you for getting counsel and wanting to seek what you should do Glorify God in your relationships you need a Godly man to help you when you are weak and that godly man will need a strong christian women when he is weak. The bible says you can only serve one master if he doesn't serve god who does he serve. when you get married the two become one  you don't want to be one with the enemy.

"Personally, I don't think that the obey, submit, etc works in a marriage."

Then you are denying the authority of Gods word.

That simple huh?

Remember that God didn't write the bible. One can say that it was divinely inspired, and they aren't wrong, but God never picked up the pen and authored it himself. Neither did God or Jesus whisper into the apostles ears what they should say. And the books that wound up in the bible were voted on. There were many many many more gospels that never made the cut. I like to think that the Gospels themselves are fine, but the letters seem to convey a different message than Jesus. Men are prone to misunderstanding and misinterpreting things are we not? I wonder how one can be meek, yet be head of the household? How one can love his wife as himself yet dictate to her and have her be subservient to him. If you see a contradiction in these things and others, then I suggest seeking further. Don't just spit bible verse out to justify an outdated approach to the union of men and women or anything for that matter. Apply the message, dont just read it. I would go so far as to say that Isaiah is ever present. 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.' If something doesn't jive with the general message of Jesus. Feel free to question it.

If you don't think the Bible is the word of God then there are much bigger problems here than family structure issues. As Christians we are called to obey God first and foremost and we believe that He communicates to us through scripture about how to live, whether or not it's popular or we like it.

I believe that God does communicate to us through the bible, and through nature, and through everything around us. God is not simply just in the book but in everything. While I believe that the apostles and the people who compiled the bible itself were divinely inspired, they were still people. People have this thing called free will, means we can make mistakes, we are not infalliable. And while their intent was good and righteous, mistakes do happen. So if something doesnt jive well with the overall message of Jesus, then I consider that a mistake. Not an intentional one, not one of malice or deciet, just a misunderstanding.

By the way, this is why I generally don't like talking about faith, I had figured on a christian forum that there would be many schools of thought, not just the one. There is no one right approach to faith or religion. Even in the realm of christianity. If there was, there would only be one christian denomination instead of several dozen. Just because I approach it differently doesn't mean that i'm any less faithful than yourself. So before you call someones faith into question, you should consider this statement thoroughly.

I don't really know what to make of your blasphemous comments. Maybe you're a wolf in sheep's clothing, I don't know. But what I do know is that no true Christian would speak such drivel. If you cannot trust the New Testament then what is your basis for being a Christian? Or maybe you will just believe the Biblical verses that suit you, and ignore the ones that don't suit you. It's not my place to judge you, but Jesus said that we will know a tree by its fruit, and I can't help wondering if you really are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

distance, you have to realize that the orthodox, right believing, position just is that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Christians throughout history, the vast majority, have thought this. Now it's true, there are differing schools of thought in religions, but this isn't merely 'a religion', this is the truth. As it is, we aren't both right. That doesnt mean I think you are unsaved because of it, out of the fold completely, but I think you are in error. Here is an example of the problem, you don't think Paul's teaching about the roles of husbands and wives 'jives' with your understanding of the gospel (I have to ask why, too) so you feel free to dismiss it as error, just like that. I don't think you are intentionally doing this, but that is the end effect isn't it?

I think the large majority of Christians are at least aiming to build their lives based on the Bible, because that is how we believe God communicates His will to us today. You have to see how it is offensive to many  of us that you flick it away like that. I don't take this personally, and I hope you don't either. But I do pray that your faith will deepen and mature in the word (and mine too!).

Whatever we like to think, the Bible does clearly say that wives are to submit to their husbands, and that we are not to marry non believers. Neither politically correct but true.
It takes great strength to submit in a godly way, especially for a strong woman like myself, but it says to submit as unto the Lord, so I am doing it for God. I am blessed with a husband who is very godly, has very high moral values, and is very very easy going, and I respect him highly. I would always say to any lady, never marry a man who you cant respect, and never ever marry a non believer. If you do either of these things you will make life very difficult for yourself.

Ok, where to start.

Obey, it is neither your place, nor right to judge my faith. You say as much, and then go on to question not my ideas, but whether or not I'm christian. If you want to question my ideas, debate my theories, feel free, that is open for debate and through such perhaps your rebuttals may actually lead me to change my mind on such. My relationship with God however is not your concern, neither do you hold the right to judge it. There have always been people that bring new ideas to the frontline, and face opposition. Early christianity itself serves as a great example of that. How many people were martyered or shunned for their beliefs by their jewish fore fathers?

Deborah, There are schools of thought regarding the validity of the bible within christianity. Some orthodox christians do believe that the bible is the infalliable word of god. I understand that, and try not to impose an ideal different from that upon others. I do however have a zeal for my beliefs just as anyone else does. While I know my approach doesn't work for everyone, just as many others doesn't work for me, I've given multiple viewpoints along the lines of why I believe that the roles may be falliable. Why I don't believe its as simple as what was written of. I offer anyone the opportunity to rebuke those viewpoints, those examples. If you cannot do it without simply saying, well thats the way of the bible, then you aren't truly considering them. I don't mind debating, in fact I encourage it. Through debate one can see different ideas in action, different examples that can make their own invalid. I don't mean to slander others or their ideals. Feel free to tell me why you believe what you believe, as I have done. I find nothing wrong with building ones life around the ideals of Jesus's teachings, I think the world would be better for it.