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This consideration on the subject of the Soul hopes to be a very simple review of the word soul and how it is used in the Bible.

Discussion thread which motivated this thread can be read here

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-does-the-dividing-of-spirit-soul-and-body-look-like-pictorally/?PHPSESSID=790289897fe22b3f40483f659213850c

Firstly, it is important I put forth the Bible teaching of Soul in light of the above thread and its apparent confusion.  It is not conceivable that man has an 'immortal soul' or any immortal element within him naturally for reason explored below.  

And by naturally I mean within our flesh and blood nature - - has no good thing.

For I (Paul) know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)

Here Paul is very particular to focus our attention on the flesh nature knowing that inherently within that nature is no good thing. He goes on to define why our nature is absent of any good thing, because a law works within its mortal frame that makes it bias toward sin and death.

We hope to attempt to clear up any confusion surrounding the word 'soul' in this study.  While I expect many will interject and I believe this is valuable I would ask that you always provide Bible verses to support your understanding. In doing this we will have a common point of reference to work from.  

And God is never wrong  

Hebrew = Nephesh
Greek = Psuche

Translated as such:

•   Body
•   Breath
•   Creature
•   Heart
•   Mind
•   Person
•   Himself  

Those reading this will recall how the soul of an animal is no different to the soul of a person; only that the word soul will infer different meaning depending on context.

The first occurrence of Soul in the Bible (animal):

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (Genesis 1:20)

Life - - - - - - > Living creatures - - - - - - > Soul

The first occurrence of Soul in the Bible (Human):

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  (Genesis 2:7)

Soul - - - - - - > Living creature - - - - - - - -> Life

As you will see within the first two chapters of the Bible the Hebrew word Nephesh used of Life, Living Creature, Soul.

All of which bare the same meaning and context.

A living breathing creature that has life.

Therefore the soul refers to a person, animal, body, self and any aspect of the person anatomy.

I believe another member made a good point that the soul is 'you', or the summation of all the things which make up a person.  In fact the translators have come a long way in better understanding this word and its use. The NIV and other versions rarely use the word 'soul', translating it instead as 'you' or 'the person'.

As we proved earlier the living creatures also are called "moving creatures...AND...every living creature" (Gen. 1:20,21).

So we find the word "creature" is 'nephesh', which is 'soul'

Also used of man in Gen. 2:7: "...and man became a living soul".

So man is a 'soul', likewise animals are 'souls' also. The only difference between mankind and animals is that man is mentally superior to them; he is created in the physical image of God (Gen. 1:26) I hope to demonstrate how this essential difference defines the use of the word soul in the Scriptures though also teaching us the natural aspects of our makeup are fundamentally no different; we each breath air, have hearts that pump blood around the body etc.

From Gen 1:26 we understand man was called / created to have dominion over the animals (carnal thinking) which of course he did not taking on the serpents mode of lustful thinking.

Now it is so that all men and women are called to know the Gospel message which at its core offers the hope of immortality (2 Tim. 1:10).

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (2 Timothy 1:10)

Where it is said "brought life and immortality to light" THROUGH "the Gospel" is an intelligible hope based on knowledge and faith and by no means something inherent in the nature of mankind.

In terms of our fundamental nature (flesh and blood) and that all creatures die, there is no difference between man and animals.

That which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them (note the double emphasis): as the one dieth, so dieth the other...so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast...All (i.e. man and animals) go unto one place (i.e the grave); all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" (Ecc. 3:19,20).

I will leave it here for comments - but please remember no personal taunts or derogatory remarks. If you wish to make a point please support with Scripture.

In the Masters service.

Alethos

Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?

Quote from: Alethos on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?

No one in heaven has a body yet. Delta is correct.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:59:35

Quote from: Alethos on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?

No one in heaven has a body yet. Delta is correct.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
(John 3:13)

"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

He is still there in the grave Lively.

"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"

But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?

And the serpent said "You will not surely die."

It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived. 

A.

PLEASE get John 3 into context!

John 3:5-13
5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit.

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

He is still there in the grave Lively.

"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"

But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?

And the serpent said "You will not surely die."

It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.  

A.

What do you take me for, Bubba?

My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!

Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:08:08
PLEASE get John 3 into context!

John 3:5-13
5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

He is still there in the grave Lively.

"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"

But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?

And the serpent said "You will not surely die."

It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived. 

A.

What do you take me for, Bubba?

My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!

Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.

No pet names please 

So you dont actually die do you?

Quote from: Alethos on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?

What do you mean in this statement?

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

He is still there in the grave Lively.

"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"

But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?

And the serpent said "You will not surely die."

It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived. 

A.

What do you take me for, Bubba?

My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!

Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.

No pet names please 

So you dont actually die do you?

My body does, but the real me doesn't.

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:28:34

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:08:08
PLEASE get John 3 into context!

John 3:5-13
5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:53:39

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

He is still there in the grave Lively.

"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"

But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?

And the serpent said "You will not surely die."

It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived. 

A.

What do you take me for, Bubba?

My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!

Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.

No pet names please 

So you dont actually die do you?

My body does, but the real me doesn't.

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!

Quote from: Delta12 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:41:15

Quote from: Alethos on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?

What do you mean in this statement?

Delta,

You referred to this idea of being without the body as if you have some immortal essence in you that wafts of to God when you die.

No Scripture can be produced to prove such a thing - it's a notion born out Greek philosophy.

A.

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:31:43

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:53:39

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

He is still there in the grave Lively.

"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"

But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?

And the serpent said "You will not surely die."

It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived. 

A.

What do you take me for, Bubba?

My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!

Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.

No pet names please 

So you dont actually die do you?

My body does, but the real me doesn't.

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:41:36

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:31:43

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:53:39

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)

He is still there in the grave Lively.

"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"

But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?

And the serpent said "You will not surely die."

It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived. 

A.

What do you take me for, Bubba?

My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!

Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.

No pet names please 

So you dont actually die do you?

My body does, but the real me doesn't.

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!

Alethos,

In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew].  But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh.  The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be.  Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.

The distinction that you seem to have missed in all of this is the presence of the spirit of man which is unique in the animal kingdom.  As I have pointed out a couple of times at least is that although soul and spirit are not precisely the same, throughout the Bible and especially in the NT when speaking of the human being, man, the two terms can almost always be used interchangeably.

In the Bible, particularly the NT, sleep is a euphemism for physical, not spiritual, death.  It is not a state of spiritual unconsciousness as you seem to believe.  It seems clear that you are somewhat confused about the intermediate state of our being, that state between the time of our physical death and the return of Christ and our resurrection.  The biggest problem with the soul-sleep view which you seem to hold is that the Bible also portrays the dead as being in a state of consciousness.

In 1 Sam 28:11-19 God permitted the prophet Samuel to speak to King Saul, even though Samuel was dead (v.3).  The fact that he spoke with Saul implies his continuing conscieous existence.

The appearance of Moses and Elijah at the event of Christ's transfiguration in Matthew 17 is a similar situation.  They conversed with Jesus, showing thier continuing conscious exestence.  The visible form seen by Peter, James and John, like that of Samuel when he spoke with Saul, may be only a form given them by God for the occasion and may not necessarily correspond to their condition on the "other side".  It most like is a form given so that they could be seen, much like that when angels confront men directly.  We do not connect what was seen in such instances with their new glorified resurrection bodies.

In Matt 10:28 Jesus warns,  "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." I believe that the would soul here is not the same as the soul [Heb - nephesh] that is spoken of in Genesis.  Rather it is the spirit of man which distinguishes him from the rest of the animals that is being referred to.  Jesus does not necessarily speak to an intermediate state here but He does clearly show that the soul (spirit) is separable from the body and that it continues to exist apart from the body after physcial death.

The account in Luke 16:19-31 is the oft referred to story of the rich man and Lazaurs, both of whom died and continued on in conscious existence in what is obviously an interim state.  Now whether this is a parable or the recounting of an actual event is really beside the point.  Even if Lazarus and the rich man were not real people, the circumstances pictured in the story must refelct the reality of the afterlife; otherwise Jesus has misled us.

Jesus' reply to the prayer of the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise", jsuggests both consciousness and disembodiment after death.  The very concept of Paradise implies a state of blessing.  How can it be a state of blessing if it is not consciously experieced? The expression Jesus used, "with Me in Paradise" confirm the dead exist in a counscious interim state in contrast to "soul-sleep".

In Phil 1:21-24 Paul declares that he is happy "to remain on in the flesh" for the sake of serving Christ in the life.  But at the same time he says as far as his own personal desires are concerned, he would much prefer "to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better".  He sums that up in v.21 with "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain".

I could go on and on showing that the concept of "soul-sleep" as you propose is simply not biblical.  Over and over, the Bible, particularly the NT, affirms the existence of a conscious intermediate state.  

Great study Jimmy.....
spirit or "pneuma," in nearly every case, refers to that part of man that in non-material.
Man is more in the image of God in spirit than in body.

Soul or "psyche" has three primary uses.
(1) The rough equivalent of "spirit"; man's spiritual nature: Rev. 6:9, 20; Ma. 10:28; Luke 1:46-47.
(2) The whole "person" or "self": Acts 2:41; 7:14; 27:37 Romans 13:1; James 5:20;  1 Peter 3:20.
(3) The "life" of the person: John 10:11; Acts. 15:26; Ma. 16:26, etc.
      Psyche is translated "life" 40 times in the KJV.

For sure, man is a unity of body and spirit.
Sin involves the whole man and salvation includes the body.
Jesus died to save men, not spirits. (Romans 8:23).

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 08:09:19
Alethos,

In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew].  But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh.  The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be.  Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.

The distinction between animal and man is nonexistent in relation to the meaning of soul.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

What does this teach?

•   Man and Animal share the same end - - death
•   Man and Animal share the same one breath – respiratory system
•   In terms of their biology a man has no pre-eminence over an animal.   

I will wait for your acknowledgment of the above as truth before moving onto the rest of your post.  If you cannot perceive that no good thing is in man or his material nature there is no point in going any further.

A.

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:35:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:41:15

Quote from: Alethos on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?

What do you mean in this statement?

Delta,

You referred to this idea of being without the body as if you have some immortal essence in you that wafts of to God when you die.

No Scripture can be produced to prove such a thing - it's a notion born out Greek philosophy.

A.

You are without your body in the sense you have not been raised to be flesh and bone as you will be when Christ returns and you get your glorified body. What ever Spiritual Body you are given to be in the place of absent from the body and present with the Lord I do not know 100 percent for sure.

Quote from: Delta12 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 23:10:07

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:35:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:41:15

Quote from: Alethos on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04

Quote from: Delta12 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.

God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.

"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine

Manna!

Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?

What do you mean in this statement?

Delta,

You referred to this idea of being without the body as if you have some immortal essence in you that wafts of to God when you die.

No Scripture can be produced to prove such a thing - it's a notion born out Greek philosophy.

A.

You are without your body in the sense you have not been raised to be flesh and bone as you will be when Christ returns and you get your glorified body. What ever Spiritual Body you are given to be in the place of absent from the body and present with the Lord I do not know 100 percent for sure.

Are you able to define this non material entity you speak off?

And provide a verse of two to support your belief.

Thanks

A.

Well right off hand I can think of where Paul talks about different types of bodies. Second, where he talks about putting off the one tent and putting on the next one. Also where Jesus appeared to His followers with Flesh and Bone.

Quote from: Tyler on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 12:41:36
Great study Jimmy.....
spirit or "pneuma," in nearly every case, refers to that part of man that in non-material.
Man is more in the image of God in spirit than in body.

Soul or "psyche" has three primary uses.
(1) The rough equivalent of "spirit"; man's spiritual nature: Rev. 6:9, 20; Ma. 10:28; Luke 1:46-47.
(2) The whole "person" or "self": Acts 2:41; 7:14; 27:37 Romans 13:1; James 5:20;  1 Peter 3:20.
(3) The "life" of the person: John 10:11; Acts. 15:26; Ma. 16:26, etc.
     Psyche is translated "life" 40 times in the KJV.

For sure, man is a unity of body and spirit.
Sin involves the whole man and salvation includes the body.
Jesus died to save men, not spirits. (Romans 8:23).

Can you prove from Rev 6:9 that the word soul is not referring to Life,body,living creature or lives?

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held

How can you prove these are ethereal beings when the alter is symbolic and the idea of those people being literally under the alter is not being conveyed?

This is a typical example of an uninformed Christian running away with quotes they know very little about.

Disappointing really as it distracts people from the truth.

A.

Quote from: Delta12 on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 01:15:36
Well right off hand I can think of where Paul talks about different types of bodies. Second, where he talks about putting off the one tent and putting on the next one. Also where Jesus appeared to His followers with Flesh and Bone.

Put up the quotes and lets discuss them if you believe they speak of believers possessing immortal nature.

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 22:57:30

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 08:09:19
Alethos,

In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew].  But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh.  The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be.  Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.

The distinction between animal and man is nonexistent in relation to the meaning of soul.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

What does this teach?

•   Man and Animal share the same end - - death
•   Man and Animal share the same one breath – respiratory system
•   In terms of their biology a man has no pre-eminence over an animal.   

I will wait for your acknowledgment of the above as truth before moving onto the rest of your post.  If you cannot perceive that no good thing is in man or his material nature there is no point in going any further.

A.

But none of that speaks to the fact that man is made in the image of God.  That image is not in the body and soul as relates to the flesh.  Rather that image is in the spirit and is not shared with the rest of the animals in any way.  Now my point here is that when the Bible speaks of the soul of man it usually does so with this distinction in view.  When it speaks, for example, of the "soul that sins" it speaks only of the soul of man, a soul for which there is not only a body but a spirit.

When you say there is no "good thing" in man, be careful that you have correctly defined the meaning of good.  That meaning is not the ordinary "good" of ordinary speaking.  Wycliff's Shilallee (sp?) once observed here that we, man and animal, are souls; animals have a body; we have both a body and a spirit.  That pretty well establishes the distinction.  If there is any confusion it is because in speaking about man, the Bible, particularly in the NT, often uses soul and spirit interchangeably.

Quote from: Jimmy on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 15:35:29

Quote from: Alethos on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 22:57:30

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 08:09:19
Alethos,

In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew].  But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh.  The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be.  Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.

The distinction between animal and man is nonexistent in relation to the meaning of soul.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

What does this teach?

•   Man and Animal share the same end - - death
•   Man and Animal share the same one breath – respiratory system
•   In terms of their biology a man has no pre-eminence over an animal.  

I will wait for your acknowledgment of the above as truth before moving onto the rest of your post.  If you cannot perceive that no good thing is in man or his material nature there is no point in going any further.

A.

But none of that speaks to the fact that man is made in the image of God.  

Being made in the image and with the potential for likeness does nothing to change the biological make up of man.

Image (appearance) and likeness (moral propensity, which is developed from the hearing of the Word) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  (Rom 10:17)

I wait for you to acknowledge that man in his natural state has no pre-eminence (at all) over the animal in accordance to the Scriptures.

However, his interlectual ability is what seperates them.

Quote

That image is not in the body and soul as relates to the flesh.  Rather that image is in the spirit and is not shared with the rest of the animals in any way.  

The image is in the body; hence for this reason the Angels appear as men - in "our" image made He them!

Quote

Now my point here is that when the Bible speaks of the soul of man it usually does so with this distinction in view.  When it speaks, for example, of the "soul that sins" it speaks only of the soul of man, a soul for which there is not only a body but a spirit.

Incorrect - the "soul that sins" is confined to the body or flesh of that life.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.  (Rom 7:18)

Paul is very careful to focus your attention to the location and source of sin. (That is, in my flesh) dwells NO GOOD THING!

Sin is brought to life out of our nature.

Read the Lords teaching on this subject.

And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mar 7:18-23)

Out of the heart (mind) of man!

Read yourself rich Jimmy! 

Quote

When you say there is no "good thing" in man, be careful that you have correctly defined the meaning of good.  That meaning is not the ordinary "good" of ordinary speaking.  Wycliff's Shilallee (sp?) once observed here that we, man and animal, are souls; animals have a body; we have both a body and a spirit.  That pretty well establishes the distinction.  If there is any confusion it is because in speaking about man, the Bible, particularly in the NT, often uses soul and spirit interchangeably.

You are way off beam Jimmy.

The heart (or mind left to itself) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?  (Jer 17:9)

There is nothing inherently good in man only the external mind that enters the man through taking possession of another Mind or way of thinking can that person reflect the moral likeness of God in their animal state.

While you are trying to swing the discussion over to Spirit - I will hold you fast to the Biblical meaning of Soul as it relates to man and animals.

Once we have achieved this we can then progress to discuss how the spirit or Spirit and the distinction between the both applies to man.

Jimmy, a word of advice.

Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.

A.

Quote from: Alethos on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58

Jimmy, a word of advice.

Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.

A.

A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture.  Perhaps you should take your own advice.  If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.

I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird.  You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good".  You also are confused about that as well.  And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".

Quote from: Jimmy on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36

Quote from: Alethos on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58

Jimmy, a word of advice.

Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.

A.

A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture.  Perhaps you should take your own advice.  If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.

I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird.  You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good".  You also are confused about that as well.  And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".

If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.

In doing so you will be forced to consider the context before posting and who knows, you may learn something of the Word that you didnt know before 

Quote from: Jimmy on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36

Quote from: Alethos on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58

Jimmy, a word of advice.

Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.

A.

A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture.  Perhaps you should take your own advice.  If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.

I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird.  You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good".  You also are confused about that as well.  And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".

By the way Jimmy my understanding of "good" is very good.

Even Christ could not see himself as good and for good reason.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mar 10:18)

Of course you would need a sound unstanding of the teaching of Soul in the Bible to understand how Christ could speak such truth.

In James 2:16
It says that the body without the spirit is dead. It does not say the spirit dies, does it? Just the body!

In Matthew 10:28
It says do not fear those that can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. It is saying if someone kills us physically they kill the body, but not the soul. right? It also mentions that the soul would be destroyed in Hell (Geenna). So the soul lives until the final judgement and this is only for those that are the wicked and their future destruction, right?

In Genesis 35:18
It says her(Rachel) soul was departing...where did it go? Her body would be buried but her soul was not with her body, right?

In 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
It says that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Where does the HS dwell in us? What part?

Psalm 146: 4 speaks of breath(Ruwach) departing form a person and that very day his plans perish. Is this speaking of an unbeliever or both?

John 5:28-29
John says not to marval the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will HEAR his voice and come out, both good and evil...What part of us can hear? Is it our body?

Luke 1:46
Mary mentions both her soul(Psuche) magnifies the Lord, and my spirit (Pneuma) rejoices in God my Savior. Does't this describe two parts of Mary?


Matthew 27:52
Speaks of tombs opening and bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised...What happen to these saints?


Again, a lot of what I am reading on this forum does not make sense in light of these scriptures and more....

Also until someone can explain the difference in these hebrew and greek words...we will continue to be blinded to truth.

Hebrew:
roo'akh-the Spirit
neh'fesh-soul-self conscious
baw-sawr'-body

Greek:
phoo'mah-Spirit
psoo'day-soul
sarx-body

Three different words to describe three different parts....

Quote from: Alethos on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:26:34

Quote from: Jimmy on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36

Quote from: Alethos on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58

Jimmy, a word of advice.

Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.

A.

A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture.  Perhaps you should take your own advice.  If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.

I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird.  You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good".  You also are confused about that as well.  And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".

By the way Jimmy my understanding of "good" is very good.

By the way Alethos you understanding of "good" is not very good.

Quote from: Alethos on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41

Quote from: Jimmy on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36

Quote from: Alethos on Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58

Jimmy, a word of advice.

Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.

A.

A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture.  Perhaps you should take your own advice.  If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.

I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird.  You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good".  You also are confused about that as well.  And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".

If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.

I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit"  thread.

Alethos: "How can you prove these are ethereal beings when the alter is symbolic and the idea of those people being literally under the alter is not being conveyed?

This is a typical example of an uninformed Christian running away with quotes they know very little about.

Disappointing really as it distracts people from the truth.'

You need to dig a little deeper and get a handle on the Word before you shoot from the hip poster.....
Verse nine of Revelation six embraces a complex sentence of three clauses.
The independent member affirms, "I saw the souls..."
When he saw the souls is testified to in the verb clause, "when he opened the fifth seal."

Where the souls were that he saw is designated by the prepositional phrase, "under the alter."
These "souls" that John saw were secure under the alter, "the place of sacrifice."

To point out more definitely which "souls" he saw the apostle introduces the attributive
perfect passive participle "the ones having been slaughtered." Why they were slaughtered appears in
two adverb phrases with accusative, "because of the word of God" and because of the testimony..."
This "testimony" as described by an adjective dependent clause..."which they were having."

Something to think about: In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the term body, soul, and spirit represents an accumulation
of terms indicating the intensity and completeness of the desired sanctification, just as in Matthew 22:37
the terms heart, soul, and mind is an accumulation of terms indicating the intensity and completeness of
the desired kind of love.