Christian Forums

I quote a Dr, Th.D. on the matter from his book Every Wind of Doctrine regarding soul sleep. No Copy right no ISBN. Not my work but summarizes this error so well.  The book is like a dictionary of false errors refuted by God's word. 

"The soul is said to be unconscious or "asleep" between death and the resurrection." end quote   scriptures that are used to support this view by one occult group
are Acts 7 start quote "(when Stephen died it is said that "he fell asleep") and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The Scriptures, however, declare that the soul or person is conscious after the death of the body and that to speak of the dead as "asleep" is simply a figure of speech (indicative of the appearance of the body upon death). See in refutation: Matthew 17:1-3; Luke 16:19-31; 23:40-43; Philippians 1:21-23; 2 Corinthians 5:1-9; Psalm 73:25; Revelation 6:9-11; Ecclesiastes 12:7. These passages clearly prove that the dead saints (and sinners) are conscious and active, and that the saved are present with the Lord immediately. Moreover, the saints who "sleep in Jesus" will come back with him as the Second Advent, indicating that they had been consciously present with Him all along, not asleep in some grave( 1 thess. 3:13; 4:14)." end quote

Sleeping until the end?
Conscious until the end?

Both are wrong IMO.  As I understand it, upon death one enters the realm of eternity and leaves our time frame.  So either statement is irrelavent. There in no "until" in that place.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 05, 2012 - 06:58:53
Sleeping until the end?
Conscious until the end?

Both are wrong IMO.  As I understand it, upon death one enters the realm of eternity and leaves our time frame.  So either statement is irrelavent. There in no "until" in that place.

Sleeping until the end and Conscious until the end is not seen or inferred by the OP that you see....correct? 

It is definately infered.

"The soul is said to be unconscious or 'asleep' between death and the resurrection"

"they had been consciously present with Him all along"

Both statements assume the dead are folowing the same timeline as the living.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 05, 2012 - 08:33:10
It is definately infered.

"The soul is said to be unconscious or 'asleep' between death and the resurrection"

"they had been consciously present with Him all along"

Both statements assume the dead are folowing the same timeline as the living.

"The soul is said to be unconscious or "asleep" between death and the resurrection" is the statement of error and the rest deals with the correction.


"they had been consciously present with Him all along" is indicating a time line of between WHEN they died (on earthTIME) and when they come
back (to earth TIME). So i'm not sure what you are arguing. God does have a time table, although not bound by time. Time is for here. The time of HIS return to earth. There is TIME between when He left, and when He is coming BACK to earth.

Your thinking is tied into earth time. That is irrelevant in eternity.

Think of a reel of film, and someone dies at the start of the film and someone else dies hours later at the end of the film.  Now imagine a soul drops from the celuloid at each death.  As the film is all wrapped up on the reel, how long a time seperates those 2 deaths?   No time at all.

And if I throw the reel into a fire, will it take hours for the fire to reach the end of the film?  Indeed, the end of the film may burn FIRST depending on how it is wrapped.

That simile is very crude so do not take it too far.  But it illustrates the point that what may take hours or days or millenia by going thru the progression of the film can be simultaneous or even reversed outside that frame of reference.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 05, 2012 - 09:01:37
Your thinking is tied into earth time. That is irrelevant in eternity.

Think of a reel of film, and someone dies at the start of the film and someone else dies hours later at the end of the film.  Now imagine a soul drops from the celuloid at each death.  As the film is all wrapped up on the reel, how long a time seperates those 2 deaths?   No time at all.

And if I throw the reel into a fire, will it take hours for the fire to reach the end of the film?  Indeed, the end of the film may burn FIRST depending on how it is wrapped.

That simile is very crude so do not take it too far.  But it illustrates the point that what may take hours or days or millenia by going thru the progression of the film can be simultaneous or even reversed outside that frame of reference.

I can some what understand that. However the Bible was written to US who are IN time. For example....this topic is about what happens to those people....between when they left earth and when they come back. What was there state. That is more to the point. The error suggests that the people who die, are asleep, waiting to be raised. Soul sleep suggests that the person is NOT present with Jesus Christ in a state of knowledge of that fact between when they died, and when they get to return to time. 

Right.  And if the person who dies today goes (from his perspective) immediatly to the presence of the Lord, in that time zone he may arive at the Lords presence before Noah or Abraham who died millenia ago. (who also IMMEDIATLY go to HIS presence) Scripture records no corrolation between our time and eternity.

If you can understand why that could be so, then you will get why I say both statements are probably false.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 05, 2012 - 09:01:37
Your thinking is tied into earth time. That is irrelevant in eternity.

Think of a reel of film, and someone dies at the start of the film and someone else dies hours later at the end of the film.  Now imagine a soul drops from the celuloid at each death.  As the film is all wrapped up on the reel, how long a time seperates those 2 deaths?   No time at all.

And if I throw the reel into a fire, will it take hours for the fire to reach the end of the film?  Indeed, the end of the film may burn FIRST depending on how it is wrapped.

That simile is very crude so do not take it too far.  But it illustrates the point that what may take hours or days or millenia by going thru the progression of the film can be simultaneous or even reversed outside that frame of reference.

Time is irrelevant in eternity, but until the END of time, God counts it as a factor of His creation. WHEN time has ended, THEN its no longer a factor. To suggest that once you die, there is no more sense of time is not correct. Why? Because until the end of the
earth realm as we know it, time will always be factored into God's plan.  Revelation 6:10

So you are saying that God and His dwelling place are subject to earth time? 

I disagree.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 05, 2012 - 10:10:51
So you are saying that God and His dwelling place are subject to earth time? 

I disagree.

Its not subjected to it. It takes it into consideration and includes it. God's plan includes time. God is the author of time and to say that it does not factor in does not match scripture.

Quote from: Delta12 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 - 09:17:48

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 05, 2012 - 09:01:37
Your thinking is tied into earth time. That is irrelevant in eternity.

Think of a reel of film, and someone dies at the start of the film and someone else dies hours later at the end of the film.  Now imagine a soul drops from the celuloid at each death.  As the film is all wrapped up on the reel, how long a time seperates those 2 deaths?   No time at all.

And if I throw the reel into a fire, will it take hours for the fire to reach the end of the film?  Indeed, the end of the film may burn FIRST depending on how it is wrapped.

That simile is very crude so do not take it too far.  But it illustrates the point that what may take hours or days or millenia by going thru the progression of the film can be simultaneous or even reversed outside that frame of reference.

I can some what understand that. However the Bible was written to US who are IN time. For example....this topic is about what happens to those people....between when they left earth and when they come back. What was there state. That is more to the point. The error suggests that the people who die, are asleep, waiting to be raised. Soul sleep suggests that the person is NOT present with Jesus Christ in a state of knowledge of that fact between when they died, and when they get to return to time.  

Amen...there is a lot of error in simply the fact that people don't seem to understand that where the Bible speaks of the dead being asleep, they are simply saying they are dead because they appear to be sleeping, visually. the ancients used that terminology for death. Even Jesus used it to enforce the fact that He has authority over death.

God breathed life into us and when this flesh body dies that spirit of life that was breathed in us will go back to God, Ecclesiastics 12:7, and this flesh body will return to the dust of the ground from where it came from until we are resurrected when Jesus comes to take us into the clouds, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, which is the first heaven that is atmosphere where we will be raised incorruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity's being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God. Only those who have faith in Christ are those who are spiritually alive while those with unbelief in Christ are spiritually dead, 1Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26; Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13.

Like I have said in a prior post, when you sleep you are connected by God and see a little bit of what eternity is like. We dream, but we dont know why. It's surely not a past event that we had, its just a whole new set of sorroundings you encounter in your dream. Something you never even imagined. That's what eternity is like. It's like God is showing you that eternity really exist, that life really exist after human death. Deja-Vu as well. God's showing you all that. That's why its said in the Bible God sees future before you.