Christian Forums

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jul 09, 2012 - 19:53:28

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Mon Jul 09, 2012 - 16:48:30

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jul 08, 2012 - 18:50:07

Quote from: Mike7 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 - 01:08:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 - 23:17:04
The common person (95% of the population) couldn't read so how does prohibiting unauthorized printings and translations of the Bible prevent people from knowing the Bible?

How does it prevent people when at the sane time the hear the Bible and a sermon in Mass every week?

Silly contradictions tricks are for kids.

the fact is the priests were just as ignorant of the bible as the common person. The bible was not read to the people in the mass     at all. Both priest and laity were ignorant of scripture. if you read what happened during the protestant reformation you would know what happens when the people are taught the bible and hear it read to them in there own language.

The medieval church, ignorant of scripture, was a monster of vice and corruption.

That's a lie. The scriptures have been at every Mass for 2000 years.

Go get a clue.

Yeah, until 1969 only in Latin.  For 1500 years... only in Latin. 

1 Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Not from God, not from God at all.

Peace

No I believe the scriptures were read in the local vernacular and the homily(sermon) was given in the local vernacular as well.

The rest of the liturgy was in Latin.

That system kept most of the people from reading and hearing the word of God thanks to the prince that was to come from Rome, the one you call your spiritual father here on earth.

TD

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Mon Jul 09, 2012 - 20:21:40

Quote from: LightHammer on Mon Jul 09, 2012 - 19:53:28

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Mon Jul 09, 2012 - 16:48:30

Quote from: LightHammer on Sun Jul 08, 2012 - 18:50:07

Quote from: Mike7 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 - 01:08:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 - 23:17:04
The common person (95% of the population) couldn't read so how does prohibiting unauthorized printings and translations of the Bible prevent people from knowing the Bible?

How does it prevent people when at the sane time the hear the Bible and a sermon in Mass every week?

Silly contradictions tricks are for kids.

the fact is the priests were just as ignorant of the bible as the common person. The bible was not read to the people in the mass     at all. Both priest and laity were ignorant of scripture. if you read what happened during the protestant reformation you would know what happens when the people are taught the bible and hear it read to them in there own language.

The medieval church, ignorant of scripture, was a monster of vice and corruption.

That's a lie. The scriptures have been at every Mass for 2000 years.

Go get a clue.

Yeah, until 1969 only in Latin.  For 1500 years... only in Latin.  

1 Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Not from God, not from God at all.

Peace

No I believe the scriptures were read in the local vernacular and the homily(sermon) was given in the local vernacular as well.

The rest of the liturgy was in Latin.

That system kept most of the people from reading and hearing the word of God thanks to the prince that was to come from Rome, the one you call your spiritual father here on earth.

TD

Nope not true at all.

1. Illiteracy was the reason why people couldn't read. Illiteracy was rampant worldwide and not just in Europe where the Catholic system was in power. That's proof that the Catholic system was not the cause of illiteracy.

2. The fact that there was no printing press and thus anyway to produce a large amount of literature to teach reading was the reason why people couldn't own any bibles. Proof of this is in the medeival Byzantine empire where the Catholic Church was not in power at all. No one owned any Bibles there either but the clergy because there was no way to produce mass copies of the Bible.

3. Another irrefutable point that the Catholic Church wasn't keeping scripture from the population (apart from the weekly readings and sermons) is the fact that Gutenberg employed by a Catholic bishop invented the printed press in 1411. The first thing the Church had printed to test the machine was (watch out now) Bibles.

"All that has been written to me about that marvelous man seen at Frankfurt [sic] is true. I have not seen complete Bibles but only a number of quires of various books of the Bible. The script was very neat and legible, not at all difficult to follow—your grace would be able to read it without effort, and indeed without glasses."

Future pope Pius II in a letter to Cardinal Carvajal, March 1455

The Gutenberg Bibles were the first of many bibles that were to come until Gutenberg's invention was "mysteriously" stolen. It's funny because after the printing press was stolen a pre-reformers somehow miraculously had the means to print their own Bible copies and preach their own new interpretations of scripture.

Astounding how these same pre-reformers, who just happened to magically have the means to print Bibles immediately after the only printing press in Europe was stolen from the Catholic Church and it's Catholic inventor, proceeded to accuse the Catholic Church of failing to produce Bobles for personal ownership.

Oh the irony.

My posts on the sacrament of the Eucharist were in Response to mike 7 Post # 223 where he said:

"What about the blasphemous idolatry of the mass where a mere man claims the power to create God himself out of bread. The bread is said to be the actual soul and divinity of Christ and is worshipped as God with the highest form or Roman worship called Latria."

He said this to fuel his claim that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.
Anti Catholics have brought up all kinds of other stuff on this forum that is posted about the Inquisition, celibacy, abstaining from meat, the Pope meeting with world leaders, and pictures of Statues and processions

None of this is relavent.  But I suppose since they think this is proof that Catholicism is the Religion of the Antichrist it would be relevant from their point of view.

So if someone makes a comment about the Catholic Church that is off topic am I not permitted to respond to it?

David Hunt?  1994?  I was saved in 1980 and learned that teaching in my first year.  David Hunt did not invent that teaching.

The idea of being Catholic was the same as being saved, and purgatory for purification of sins, rather than the blood of Christ, has led MANY souls to Hell. Too many have gone to their eternity believing that just being a Catholic saved them, or they could openly sin and be purified after death. BOTH.... lies straight from the pit that have nothing to do with Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Mary worship, the saints, the rosary (repetitious prayers), Adoration, the REAL blood/flesh in communion, statues, the sign of the cross... none of which has to do with salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, are all practices of nonesense compared to teaching one can be purified after death, or that being Catholic means you are saved.  These two teachings have led the souls of millions to Hell.  Just like the Book of Revelation says.

Like it or not. 

Quote from: kensington on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 00:07:48
David Hunt?  1994?  I was saved in 1980 and learned that teaching in my first year.  David Hunt did not invent that teaching.

The idea of being Catholic was the same as being saved, and purgatory for purification of sins, rather than the blood of Christ, has led MANY souls to Hell. Too many have gone to their eternity believing that just being a Catholic saved them, or they could openly sin and be purified after death. BOTH.... lies straight from the pit that have nothing to do with Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Mary worship, the saints, the rosary (repetitious prayers), Adoration, the REAL blood/flesh in communion, statues, the sign of the cross... none of which has to do with salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, are all practices of nonesense compared to teaching one can be purified after death, or that being Catholic means you are saved.  These two teachings have led the souls of millions to Hell.  Just like the Book of Revelation says.

Like it or not. 

Kensington how come every time you speak about the Catholic Church it's always a bold faced lie?

Honest question. I'm curious.

The Gutenberg Bibles were the first of many bibles that were to come until Gutenberg's invention was "mysteriously" stolen. It's funny because after the printing press was stolen a pre-reformers somehow miraculously had the means to print their own Bible copies and preach their own new interpretations of scripture.

Astounding how these same pre-reformers, who just happened to magically have the means to print Bibles immediately after the only printing press in Europe was stolen from the Catholic Church and it's Catholic inventor, proceeded to accuse the Catholic Church of failing to produce Bobles for personal ownership.

Oh the irony.
lighthammer


I'm not the only one with conspiracy thoughts lighthammer

I would not be surprised that the another printer arrived immediately after. It happens a lot in history. As soon as someone invents something another invents the same thing roughly the same time. Sometimes they are copies, but sometimes they are the same inventions but slightly different in design.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 07:36:52

Quote from: kensington on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 00:07:48
David Hunt?  1994?  I was saved in 1980 and learned that teaching in my first year.  David Hunt did not invent that teaching.

The idea of being Catholic was the same as being saved, and purgatory for purification of sins, rather than the blood of Christ, has led MANY souls to Hell. Too many have gone to their eternity believing that just being a Catholic saved them, or they could openly sin and be purified after death. BOTH.... lies straight from the pit that have nothing to do with Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Mary worship, the saints, the rosary (repetitious prayers), Adoration, the REAL blood/flesh in communion, statues, the sign of the cross... none of which has to do with salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, are all practices of nonesense compared to teaching one can be purified after death, or that being Catholic means you are saved.  These two teachings have led the souls of millions to Hell.  Just like the Book of Revelation says.

Like it or not. 

Kensington how come every time you speak about the Catholic Church it's always a bold faced lie?

Honest question. I'm curious.

As I said, "like it or not".   Some people don't like the truth. But, it doesn't change it. Maybe it helps you to call it a lie. I don't know, I don't care.

I'm posting to the topic...  I see no lie. Only someone who accuses a lie. There is a difference.

Quote from: FireSword on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 10:18:47
The Gutenberg Bibles were the first of many bibles that were to come until Gutenberg's invention was "mysteriously" stolen. It's funny because after the printing press was stolen a pre-reformers somehow miraculously had the means to print their own Bible copies and preach their own new interpretations of scripture.

Astounding how these same pre-reformers, who just happened to magically have the means to print Bibles immediately after the only printing press in Europe was stolen from the Catholic Church and it's Catholic inventor, proceeded to accuse the Catholic Church of failing to produce Bobles for personal ownership.

Oh the irony.
lighthammer


I'm not the only one with conspiracy thoughts lighthammer

I would not be surprised that the another printer arrived immediately after. It happens a lot in history. As soon as someone invents something another invents the same thing roughly the same time. Sometimes they are copies, but sometimes they are the same inventions but slightly different in design.

It's not a conspiracy theory or anything. It's a simple fact of history. I'm sure you could look it up on Wikipedia or something.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 15:34:53

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 07:36:52

Quote from: kensington on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 00:07:48
David Hunt?  1994?  I was saved in 1980 and learned that teaching in my first year.  David Hunt did not invent that teaching.

The idea of being Catholic was the same as being saved, and purgatory for purification of sins, rather than the blood of Christ, has led MANY souls to Hell. Too many have gone to their eternity believing that just being a Catholic saved them, or they could openly sin and be purified after death. BOTH.... lies straight from the pit that have nothing to do with Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Mary worship, the saints, the rosary (repetitious prayers), Adoration, the REAL blood/flesh in communion, statues, the sign of the cross... none of which has to do with salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, are all practices of nonesense compared to teaching one can be purified after death, or that being Catholic means you are saved.  These two teachings have led the souls of millions to Hell.  Just like the Book of Revelation says.

Like it or not. 

Kensington how come every time you speak about the Catholic Church it's always a bold faced lie?

Honest question. I'm curious.

As I said, "like it or not".   Some people don't like the truth.

I'm posting to the topic...  I see no lie. Only someone who accuses a lie. There is a difference.

Oh so you're lying because you honestly think what you're saying is accurate? Oh ok that's still pretty horrible but it's better than what I thought about your intentions before.

Carry on.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 16:00:35
Oh so you're lying because you honestly think what you're saying is accurate? Oh ok that's still pretty horrible but it's better than what I thought about your intentions before.
Carry on.

We will do our job, you do yours.  Carry on.

Peace

In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

 "Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

 "Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

 "Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:38:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

 "Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

We ask for her intercession yes. She's Christ's Mother the most esteemed servant of God of course we would seek our Lady's prayerful intercession. We also ask all of the Apostles and our other family to do the same.

The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed and our family in Heaven have entered perfect holiness. Their prayers in communion with our own are mighty.

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:58:17

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:38:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

 "Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

We ask for her intercession yes. She's Christ's Mother the most esteemed servant of God of course we would seek our Lady's prayerful intercession. We also ask all of the Apostles and our other family to do the same.

The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed and our family in Heaven have entered perfect holiness. Their prayers in communion with our own are mighty.

This practice has no biblical support... we never see anyone praying to the saints in Scripture.

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 19:19:04

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:58:17

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:38:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

 "Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

We ask for her intercession yes. She's Christ's Mother the most esteemed servant of God of course we would seek our Lady's prayerful intercession. We also ask all of the Apostles and our other family to do the same.

The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed and our family in Heaven have entered perfect holiness. Their prayers in communion with our own are mighty.

This practice has no biblical support... we never see anyone praying to the saints in Scripture.

No argument there. There are a few obvious reasons for that though.

1. No one dies on the Bible's record apart from St. Stephen and St. James. So thee would be no saints in Heaven to pray with anyway.

2. It's very possible that this belief was not even officiated yet. You all have to remember that in the time immediately following the resurrection the Church hadn't canonized the Bible yet or even arrived at a universal consensus on who Jesus was exactly.

It took three hundred years for the identity of Jesus Christ to be ecumenically ratified and 400 years plus for a popular regional bible canon to show up.

So try to cut us some slack. Contrary to what you all believe Christianity is not a religion of the book.

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 19:25:29

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 19:19:04

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:58:17

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:38:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

"Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

We ask for her intercession yes. She's Christ's Mother the most esteemed servant of God of course we would seek our Lady's prayerful intercession. We also ask all of the Apostles and our other family to do the same.

The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed and our family in Heaven have entered perfect holiness. Their prayers in communion with our own are mighty.

This practice has no biblical support... we never see anyone praying to the saints in Scripture.

No argument there. There are a few obvious reasons for that though.

1. No one dies on the Bible's record apart from St. Stephen and St. James. So thee would be no saints in Heaven to pray with anyway.

2. It's very possible that this belief was not even officiated yet. You all have to remember that in the time immediately following the resurrection the Church hadn't canonized the Bible yet or even arrived at a universal consensus on who Jesus was exactly.

It took three hundred years for the identity of Jesus Christ to be ecumenically ratified and 400 years plus for a popular regional bible canon to show up.

So try to cut us some slack. Contrary to what you all believe Christianity is not a religion of the book.

What Christianity is, is a faith in Christ lived out. But all that we need for life and godliness is found in those pages, according to Peter. And if it's not found in those pages, why do it? Why isn't God sufficient to meet all our needs in prayer? I just don't see the point in praying to anyone else.. is He too busy to hear?

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 20:10:17

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 19:25:29

Quote from: raggthyme7 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 19:19:04

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:58:17

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:38:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

"Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

We ask for her intercession yes. She's Christ's Mother the most esteemed servant of God of course we would seek our Lady's prayerful intercession. We also ask all of the Apostles and our other family to do the same.

The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed and our family in Heaven have entered perfect holiness. Their prayers in communion with our own are mighty.

This practice has no biblical support... we never see anyone praying to the saints in Scripture.

No argument there. There are a few obvious reasons for that though.

1. No one dies on the Bible's record apart from St. Stephen and St. James. So thee would be no saints in Heaven to pray with anyway.

2. It's very possible that this belief was not even officiated yet. You all have to remember that in the time immediately following the resurrection the Church hadn't canonized the Bible yet or even arrived at a universal consensus on who Jesus was exactly.

It took three hundred years for the identity of Jesus Christ to be ecumenically ratified and 400 years plus for a popular regional bible canon to show up.

So try to cut us some slack. Contrary to what you all believe Christianity is not a religion of the book.

What Christianity is, is a faith in Christ lived out. But all that we need for life and godliness is found in those pages, according to Peter. And if it's not found in those pages, why do it? Why isn't God sufficient to meet all our needs in prayer? I just don't see the point in praying to anyone else.. is He too busy to hear?

Let me ask you this.

What's the point of praying together with Christians at your church? What's the point in asking them to pray for you on their own at times?

Is God too busy to hear you? Does it take a collection of Christians praying together for your prayers to reach Him?

When you answer those questions you will know why Catholics do the exact same with our fellow Christians in Heaven.

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:58:17

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:38:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

"Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

We ask for her intercession yes. She's Christ's Mother the most esteemed servant of God of course we would seek our Lady's prayerful intercession. We also ask all of the Apostles and our other family to do the same.

The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed and our family in Heaven have entered perfect holiness. Their prayers in communion with our own are mighty.

Seeing as only the Lord Jesus Christ is our omnipresent intercessor, what do you get when your precious saints are busy?

Let me tell you. You receive nothing from anyone other than payers to God through Jesus Christ alone. Make it a habit to speak to dead people and your grieve the Spirit and He will be far from you for it. Jesus doesn't play around with His commands. He has explicitly said we must not worship anyone other than God, or to summon the dead.

The main trouble with Catholicism is that Jesus is just not enough. That, friends is license to them to commit the idolatry that they do.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 21:25:05
He has explicitly said we must not worship anyone other than God, or... summon the dead.

Exactly. That's the difference, LightHammer, between asking fellow Christians to pray for you and praying to those who have died. The former is taught in the Bible... while the latter is forbidden!

I still agree with you though, that Mystery Babylon was Jerusalem... that's really what this thread is about.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 21:25:05

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 18:58:17

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 11, 2012 - 17:38:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 21:32:27

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Tue Jul 10, 2012 - 17:08:58
In the USA people use the name of Jesus for everything.  Even atheist, when they are about to crash, yell: "Jesus!"

But in the country I grew up, a Catholic country, it is all AVE MARIA this and AVE MARIA that.  Or,... Ea Diablo !  Meaning: Oh Devil!  Those are the two gods prevalent in my country of origen.  The Bible says that "they taught my people to sware by Baal and other gods.".

And when someone speaks of the future in my country, and they want to say it will come to pass if it is on God's will, they say it like this:

"Si Dios quiere y la virgen lo permite"... Meaning, "If God wishes it and the Virgin allows it."  

The point?  If God wants it to come to pass but the Virgin does not allow it, it will not happen. That puts the virgin's authority above God.

She is a harlot indeed.  By her fruits she is known.

Peace

Funny seeing how in Catholic teaching neither of the two are gods of any sort but ok. We can judge Catholicism not from its official teachings but off of the idiomatic norms of your small part of the world in its even smaller place in Catholic hsitory.

That makes total sense.

Catholics believe it is ok to pray to Mary when it takes a god to her more than one prayer at a time.  Only God is omnipresent and yet catholics believe she is with every one of them tht calls for her help.  I agree, you do not call her a god, but Catholics truly see her with divine attributes.

Peace

We ask for her intercession yes. She's Christ's Mother the most esteemed servant of God of course we would seek our Lady's prayerful intercession. We also ask all of the Apostles and our other family to do the same.

The prayers of the righteous are powerful indeed and our family in Heaven have entered perfect holiness. Their prayers in communion with our own are mighty.

Seeing as only the Lord Jesus Christ is our omnipresent intercessor, what do you get when your precious saints are busy?

Let me tell you. You receive nothing from anyone other than payers to God through Jesus Christ alone. Make it a habit to speak to dead people and your grieve the Spirit and He will be far from you for it. Jesus doesn't play around with His commands. He has explicitly said we must not worship anyone other than God, or to summon the dead.

The main trouble with Catholicism is that Jesus is just not enough. That, friends is license to them to commit the idolatry that they do.

Were you expecting me to take this seriously?

No sarcasm honest question.

I mean you know me so I was curious if you (knowing me) would expect me to take this...."thing" seriously.

The Bible documents that God killed king Saul for praying to a dead saint (Samuel).

ISA 8:19-20 states that the living have no business going to the dead to help them with the affairs of this life.

No, I do not believe lighthammer will take any of this seriously.  He is deceived.

Going to the dead for help with things in this life... That is way out of line with Scripture.

Peace   

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 16:40:54
The Bible documents that God killed king Saul for praying to a dead saint (Samuel).

ISA 8:19-20 states that the living have no business going to the dead to help them with the affairs of this life.

No, I do not believe lighthammer will take any of this seriously.  He is deceived.

Going to the dead for help with things in this life... That is way out of line with Scripture.

Peace   

I read those verses and where exactly do they say what you say they say?

Quote from: LightHammer on Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 22:52:36

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 16:40:54
The Bible documents that God killed king Saul for praying to a dead saint (Samuel).

ISA 8:19-20 states that the living have no business going to the dead to help them with the affairs of this life.

No, I do not believe lighthammer will take any of this seriously.  He is deceived.

Going to the dead for help with things in this life... That is way out of line with Scripture.

Peace   

I read those verses and where exactly do they say what you say they say?

I can't help you.

I really can't.

Peace

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Sat Jul 14, 2012 - 15:49:37

Quote from: LightHammer on Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 22:52:36

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 16:40:54
The Bible documents that God killed king Saul for praying to a dead saint (Samuel).

ISA 8:19-20 states that the living have no business going to the dead to help them with the affairs of this life.

No, I do not believe lighthammer will take any of this seriously.  He is deceived.

Going to the dead for help with things in this life... That is way out of line with Scripture.

Peace   

I read those verses and where exactly do they say what you say they say?

I can't help you.

I really can't.

Peace

I don't recall asking for your help. What I asked for was scriptural support for your objections.

Here is the Scriptural support showing that talking or asking the dead to help us is something God hates:

1Sam 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

1Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

ISA 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Those that can see the spirit of a "virgin" and share what the "virgin" has to say, fall on the same category.

TD

Praying to saints, the host of heaven, building statues to the host of heaven and bowing down to them, ...

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

2 Kings 17:16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.

2 Kings 21:5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.

Jer 19:13 And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.

The mother of harlots indeed.

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.





TD

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:05:26
Here is the Scriptural support showing that talking or asking the dead to help us is something God hates:

1Sam 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

1Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

ISA 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Those that can see the spirit of a "virgin" and share what the "virgin" has to say, fall on the same category.

TD

And how exactly does this pertain to venerating saints and asling for their prayers?

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 16:39:55

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:05:26
Here is the Scriptural support showing that talking or asking the dead to help us is something God hates:

1Sam 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

1Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

ISA 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Those that can see the spirit of a "virgin" and share what the "virgin" has to say, fall on the same category.

TD

And how exactly does this pertain to venerating saints and asling for their prayers?

Saul asked the prophet Samuel for help, after Samuel was dead.

Isa questions the wisdom of going for  the living, to the dead?

I told you I can not help you.  You are completely blind to these obvious points.

The catholic saints are dead.

Deut 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Necromancy is the practice of going to the dead to get help or a special revelation (like Saul did).

TD

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 16:34:48

Quote from: LightHammer on Tue Jul 17, 2012 - 16:39:55

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Mon Jul 16, 2012 - 01:05:26
Here is the Scriptural support showing that talking or asking the dead to help us is something God hates:

1Sam 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

1Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

ISA 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Those that can see the spirit of a "virgin" and share what the "virgin" has to say, fall on the same category.

TD

And how exactly does this pertain to venerating saints and asling for their prayers?

Saul asked the prophet Samuel for help, after Samuel was dead.

Isa questions the wisdom of going for  the living, to the dead?

I told you I can not help you.  You are completely blind to these obvious points.

The catholic saints are dead.

Deut 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Necromancy is the practice of going to the dead to get help or a special revelation (like Saul did).

TD

No I get all that. What I don't get is how you think Saul's action is the same thing as the Catholic practice.

1. What exactly did Saul seek from Samuel?

2. Catholics don't ask saints for special revelations. Necromancy doesn't even apply. Considering you know what necromancy means.

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:27:40
No I get all that. What I don't get is how you think Saul's action is the same thing as the Catholic practice.

1. What exactly did Saul seek from Samuel?

2. Catholics don't ask saints for special revelations. Necromancy doesn't even apply. Considering you know what necromancy means.

You are kidding right?  The virgin apparitions are all about special revelations, all of them.

Asking dead people for help is against the Bible instructions for us.  Thinking they will get some special power to accomplish things here on earth when they pray to dead people, thinking there is magic power on that prayer to the dead... pure necromancy.

Catholics ask their god of transportation (St Christopher) for protection during travels.  Catholics ask different saints, depending on their specialty, for favors.  The mother of harlots indeed, she goes to bed spiritually with everyone.

Jer 3:1 ... but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
2 ... and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3 ... and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Eze 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the LORD GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!
33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.
34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

MOTHER OF HARLOTS INDEED

TD

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 19:48:52

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 18:27:40
No I get all that. What I don't get is how you think Saul's action is the same thing as the Catholic practice.

1. What exactly did Saul seek from Samuel?

2. Catholics don't ask saints for special revelations. Necromancy doesn't even apply. Considering you know what necromancy means.

You are kidding right?  The virgin apparitions are all about special revelations, all of them.

Asking dead people for help is against the Bible instructions for us.  Thinking they will get some special power to accomplish things here on earth when they pray to dead people, thinking there is magic power on that prayer to the dead... pure necromancy.

Catholics ask their god of transportation (St Christopher) for protection during travels.  Catholics ask different saints, depending on their specialty, for favors.  The mother of harlots indeed, she goes to bed spiritually with everyone.

Jer 3:1 ... but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
2 ... and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3 ... and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Eze 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the LORD GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!
33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.
34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

MOTHER OF HARLOTS INDEED

TD

1. Nope none of the Marian Apparitions were about any new special revelation but were directives to pray to God more during times of cultural hardship or to build houses of worship in times of prosperity.

No new doctrines at all.

2. Your remarks about St. Christopher are practices of only a handful of Catholics and have nothing to do with her official teachings.

If we're going to condemn entire societies by the practices of a few then maybe I should rally my African American community into a suicidal mob and lead them in a ravenous murder campaign of every person of Eurpoean and Arabian descent for enslaving our ancestors by way of the Atlantic and Arabic Slave Trade?

I mean if we're just going to take the glories off and get really "righteous" here let's do it. Your latino right? Seeing how the Hispanic drug cartel pumps thousands of kilos of illegal drugs into my urban communities I should judge you not by your beliefs but by the practices of those like you and hold you equally accountable. That's fine we can have aired on late night news if that's how you want this to go down.

How far do you want to walk down this path of ignorance?

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 20:27:44
1. Nope none of the Marian Apparitions were about any new special revelation but were directives to pray to God more during times of cultural hardship or to build houses of worship in times of prosperity.

No new doctrines at all.

The virgin aparitions invented the rosary (10 prayers to Mary, one to God).  Which is not new, the Buddists use prayer beads, the muslim too, it all came from old city Babylon. The scapular, the miraculous medal, the idea that the pope is infallible (virgin of LaSallete in France invented that).  And they are full of prophecies for the virgin apartitions are the fulfillment of the False Prophet, just Google: Fatima part 10 and see it fulfill Rev 13:13.

TD

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 18:36:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 20:27:44
1. Nope none of the Marian Apparitions were about any new special revelation but were directives to pray to God more during times of cultural hardship or to build houses of worship in times of prosperity.

No new doctrines at all.

The virgin aparitions invented the rosary (10 prayers to Mary, one to God).  Which is not new, the Buddists use prayer beads, the muslim too, it all came from old city Babylon. The scapular, the miraculous medal, the idea that the pope is infallible (virgin of LaSallete in France invented that).  And they are full of prophecies for the virgin apartitions are the fulfillment of the False Prophet, just Google: Fatima part 10 and see it fulfill Rev 13:13.

TD

1. The Rosary is not a "doctrine". It can just as easily be abolished as it was inagurated and Christ's Church will carry on.

2. Christians have been using beads for focus during long times of prayer for nearly a thousand years before the the Rosary even existed. Especially Christian monks.

As the African monk Abba Agathon said in the 4th century;

Abba Agathon said, "I consider no other labor as difficult as prayer. When we are ready to pray, our spiritual enemies interfere. They understand it is only by making it difficult for us to pray that they can harm us. Other things will meet with success if we keep at it, but laboring at prayer is a war that will continue until we die."

Those prayer beads have been used to help people concentrate and focus on God and His wonder when the troubles and distractions of the outside world attempt to infiltrate your conversation with Him.

3. Islam (the Muslims) are younger than Christianity by like 600 years so they would've been borrowing stuff from us not the other way around. However even that is wrong because beads have been used for centuries for religious and non religious purposes as points of focus.

4. The idea that the Pope is the infallible mouthpiece of the Church is nothing new.

...by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition

St. Iraneaus, Against the Heresies
Book III, Chapter 3
2nd Century

The text book definition of infallibility laid out in black and white by a Bishop from Gaul in the year 160.

Want to try again?

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Jul 20, 2012 - 18:41:22

Quote from: Talking Donkey on Thu Jul 19, 2012 - 18:36:49

Quote from: LightHammer on Wed Jul 18, 2012 - 20:27:44
1. Nope none of the Marian Apparitions were about any new special revelation but were directives to pray to God more during times of cultural hardship or to build houses of worship in times of prosperity.

No new doctrines at all.

The virgin aparitions invented the rosary (10 prayers to Mary, one to God).  Which is not new, the Buddists use prayer beads, the muslim too, it all came from old city Babylon. The scapular, the miraculous medal, the idea that the pope is infallible (virgin of LaSallete in France invented that).  And they are full of prophecies for the virgin apartitions are the fulfillment of the False Prophet, just Google: Fatima part 10 and see it fulfill Rev 13:13.

TD

1. The Rosary is not a "doctrine". It can just as easily be abolished as it was inagurated and Christ's Church will carry on.

2. Christians have been using beads for focus during long times of prayer for nearly a thousand years before the the Rosary even existed. Especially Christian monks.

As the African monk Abba Agathon said in the 4th century;

Abba Agathon said, "I consider no other labor as difficult as prayer. When we are ready to pray, our spiritual enemies interfere. They understand it is only by making it difficult for us to pray that they can harm us. Other things will meet with success if we keep at it, but laboring at prayer is a war that will continue until we die."

Those prayer beads have been used to help people concentrate and focus on God and His wonder when the troubles and distractions of the outside world attempt to infiltrate your conversation with Him.

3. Islam (the Muslims) are younger than Christianity by like 600 years so they would've been borrowing stuff from us not the other way around. However even that is wrong because beads have been used for centuries for religious and non religious purposes as points of focus.

4. The idea that the Pope is the infallible mouthpiece of the Church is nothing new.

...by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition

St. Iraneaus, Against the Heresies
Book III, Chapter 3
2nd Century

The text book definition of infallibility laid out in black and white by a Bishop from Gaul in the year 160.

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Prayer beads were invented by the old Babylonians, it is part of the Babylonian religion.  That is why most pagan religions practice it. That makes Rome the continuance of Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots.  The so called virgin invented the idea of the rosary (revelation to St Dominic) and convinced millions of Catholics that praying to the false prophet 150 times is ok, as long as they also pray to God the Father 15 times, a 10 to 1 ratio.

The doctrine of infallibility was declared a true doctrine on 18 July 1870 after  it was announced by the virgin of LaSallete.

TD