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The current trend is to insist that our inherent traits as individual be accepted, regardless of whether society accepts them.  But I was reading Codependent No More last night, and I got to the chapter, "learn the art of acceptance."  I realized that I had never fully resolved the issue of why I was never attracted to women.  I am devoted to Christ, so I am willing to do all for Him  -- even to the point of reconsidering my gay identity. 

Now, putting this in my own personal context, I have written a book, Teach Me, Loving Jesus, asking how I can find the "anti-gay" (or "traditional family") understanding that is supposed to be in scripture.  So far, no one has sent me any eMails telling me how to understand a passage, say I Corinthians 6, in terms of a condemnation of gayness, despite all my misgivings.  This is even though I have e-published my book on a website.  (I would post the link here, but I understand that it is disallowed.) 

So, even though my faith in Christ is strong, the prospect of living as anything but a joyful gay christian seems dim.   , 

Any thoughts? 

Why don't you like women?

Well, like women... interpreting that word in sexual/romantic terms, I have never been attracted to them enough to start the whole dating thing.  And, granted, I am speaking of a decision that I made back in the 1980's; maybe back then I put more baggage on the issue than there had to be. 

But I have lots of female friends.   

Quote from: IHSscj on Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 20:42:59
Well, like women... interpreting that word in sexual/romantic terms, I have never been attracted to them enough to start the whole dating thing.  And, granted, I am speaking of a decision that I made back in the 1980's; maybe back then I put more baggage on the issue than there had to be. 

But I have lots of female friends.   

Not sure that makes you gay.

Have you asked God to help ignite feelings for women.

It is proper to reconsider a homosexual identity, as we are to take on Jesus' identity. There is no joy in walking in enmity against God and His word, and there is no reconciling a homosexual lifestyle with a life of serving and honouring the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:32
Although they know God's judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31
It is proper to reconsider a homosexual identity, as we are to take on Jesus' identity. There is no joy in walking in enmity against God and His word, and there is no reconciling a homosexual lifestyle with a life of serving and honouring the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is where I have reached a "pause" (shall we say) in my reconsideration: Is gayness (homosexuality) truly inherently in emnity against God?   

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31
Romans 1:32
Although they know God's judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them.

And who were "they?" 

[quote from FireSword:]Have you asked God to help ignite feelings for women?

It hasn't generally been a concern for me to bring to God.   But this is the thing: Apparently there are christians for whom it is a concern.   

Quote from: IHSscj on Sun Nov 04, 2012 - 19:43:08

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31
It is proper to reconsider a homosexual identity, as we are to take on Jesus' identity. There is no joy in walking in enmity against God and His word, and there is no reconciling a homosexual lifestyle with a life of serving and honouring the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is where I have reached a "pause" (shall we say) in my reconsideration: Is gayness (homosexuality) truly inherently in emnity against God?   

If one claims to be a Christian and continues to live in sin without repentance, he is thumbing one's nose at God. So, yes, it is living in enmity toward God.

Hebrews 10:26
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31

Quote
Romans 1:32
Although they know God's judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them.

And who were "they?" 

'They' are those who indulge in sin and those who support their lawlessness.

And what does that have to do with gayness?   

I'm a single man, and you know, this gets me thinking that the issue is about appreciating the way God did make you as a man. A man is naturally attracted to a woman because of her as a compliment. Nobody needs to be sexually attracted to anyone to be a good Christian, but if someone is attracted to members of the same sex, I believe that could be rooted in failing to appreciate oneself as the sex that he/she is (which I believe is a prevalent issue). And in general, I think sexual purity is about self-respect.

Cally, I am going to disagree with this statement:

QuoteNobody needs to be sexually attracted to anyone to be a good Christian

The reason is simple: God gave us the FIRST commandment (chronologically speaking) when He told Adam and Mrs. Adam to "... be fruitful and multiply." God designed reproduction to be via sex, and a lack of that kind of attraction flies in the face of that command.

Quote from: IHSscj on Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 00:27:13
And what does that have to do with gayness?   

What are you saying---that being a homosexual is acceptable to God?

Quote from: IHSscj on Sun Nov 04, 2012 - 19:57:48
[quote from FireSword:]Have you asked God to help ignite feelings for women?

It hasn't generally been a concern for me to bring to God.   But this is the thing: Apparently there are christians for whom it is a concern.   

It is a concern because God made men to be attracted to women and visa versa. However if you are OK with not geting married and not having kids and never having sex, then thats OK I guess. If I were sexually attracted to the same sex as me I would have been praying hard for God to change me, and for Him to get to the root of why I am like that. [/quote]

Quote from: IHSscj on Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 20:42:59
Well, like women... interpreting that word in sexual/romantic terms, I have never been attracted to them enough to start the whole dating thing.  And, granted, I am speaking of a decision that I made back in the 1980's; maybe back then I put more baggage on the issue than there had to be. 

But I have lots of female friends.   

I think that you need to 'unmake' that decision after all this time. Many things can make people think they are gay. For example there may have been sexual abuse by a man as a child, or a very controlling and domineering mother and a weak father, among other things.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 08:49:36
Cally, I am going to disagree with this statement:

QuoteNobody needs to be sexually attracted to anyone to be a good Christian

The reason is simple: God gave us the FIRST commandment (chronologically speaking) when He told Adam and Mrs. Adam to "... be fruitful and multiply." God designed reproduction to be via sex, and a lack of that kind of attraction flies in the face of that command.

Some guys are given the gift of singlehood. It depends on the person's calling. I know don't have to remind you of Paul and his words about that.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 20:09:17

Some guys are given the gift of singlehood. It depends on the person's calling. I know don't have to remind you of Paul and his words about that.

I agree with that.  But like many of God's gifts they are somewhat rare.

How many people do you know with a true gift of healing?

And who said Paul was not attracted to women?  If he was trained at the feet of Gamaliel as he claimed, (i.e. in the school of G's grandfather Hillel) Paul would have been REQUIRED to be married to a daughter of a graduate of the school of Shammai.

Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.


Set homosexuality in that context.  When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow.   A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves.  A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.

So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic.  That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule.  After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem. 

While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same.  This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.

Changing gears for a moment...

Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

A couple of questions for you.

1.Did you ever have any incidents in your life that might have caused you to turn more towards people of the same sex?

2. Does the whole idea that "being gay" is now the "in" way to be, have any bearing on your identity?

Incidents?  not that I can think of.  But I have always tended to dispense with conventions (i.e. conventional ways of thinking).  Over the years I have learned to do all for Christ's sake, be all that I am for Christ's sake, and follow Christ as He leads me away from what offends Him. 

The "in" way to be -- well, I guess that would fly in the face of what I just said.  But I accepted myself as gay in the 1980's. 

 IHSscj~

A person who embraced being homosexual at one time and now embraces Jesus Christ needs a paradigm shift. You need to know who you are in Christ, from whom you receive your new identity.

Saying you are 'gay' and also a Christian is an oxymoron.

If you truly walk with the Lord Jesus Christ, then you receive your identity from Him---so you now must identify as a Christian, and drop the 'gay' moniker.

If you do not, you will appear to be like the Israelites, who were miraculously freed from their bondage as slaves in Egypt, and soon found themselves yearning to go back there. What did God think of them when they started hankering back to their enslavement?

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Nov 06, 2012 - 06:17:48

Quote from: Cally on Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 20:09:17

Some guys are given the gift of singlehood. It depends on the person's calling. I know don't have to remind you of Paul and his words about that.

I agree with that.  But like many of God's gifts they are somewhat rare.

How many people do you know with a true gift of healing?

And who said Paul was not attracted to women?  If he was trained at the feet of Gamaliel as he claimed, (i.e. in the school of G's grandfather Hillel) Paul would have been REQUIRED to be married to a daughter of a graduate of the school of Shammai.

What is this nonsense 

All of this assumes that gayness is inherently sinful, which is an idea that I want to examine very closely and prayerfully.   

The thing is, I've studied the so-called "slamming" scriptures (which, in reality, are no more or less the "Word of God" than the rest of the scriptures from which they are cherry-picked):

Genesis 18 & 19
Leviticus 18: 22 & 20: 13
Judges 19- 21
Romans 1: 18 - 2: 1
I Corinthians 6
I Timothy 1: 9- 11

I've looked at what conservative christians say they mean, what liberal christians say they (might) mean, and come up with no solid antigay p.o.v.  This is not to say that I believe that I can dispense with christian ethics as a whole.  But finding a fellow-christian who can explain how s/he knows that gayness is always sinful, that has been fruitless so far.

I am not sure that having same sex attraction is sinful if it cant be helped, but doing anything about it is sinful. We all have temptations to sin, but it is whether we actually dwell on it and commit that sin that is what is wrong.
What do you think?

Sin = anything that misses the mark (the original words are archery terms) or falls short of the target.

Even the attraction for the same sex and where the mind goes because of it is sin. god is not the genesis of these unholy desires. It is of the flesh and the devil, and the desire is at enmity with God. Those who know Jesus Christ have the benefit of handing over their base desires to Him and enjoy His replacement of His goodness and righteous desires.

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

This verse doesn't necessarily mean only that He grants you your desires, but that He places the actual right desires in us, when we delight in Him.

Quote from: DaveW on Sun Nov 18, 2012 - 09:09:52
Sin = anything that misses the mark (the original words are archery terms) or falls short of the target.

I suppose I see it that a man cant help initially noticing an attractive lady, but he can then choose whether he stares at her and goes on to lust.  The same surely applies to a man with a man or a woman with a woman? The temptation isnt a sin, after all Jesus was tempted, its what you do when you are tempted that is the important thing.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?

Quote
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

What is this dose of common sense doing here?!

I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!

And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.

But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.

Agreed!

[in reference to:
Reply #24 by DaveW on: November 18, 2012, 08:09:52 AM »
Sin = anything that misses the mark (the original words are archery terms) or falls short of the target.]

Hi
Very interesting subject - something I know a little about, as my ex struggled with same sex attractions too.  In his case though, he does have attraction for women and is drawn to them in a romantic, sexual way, but he also has a drive toward his own sex. In his case though, he can trace the feelings starting to emerge after prolonged abuse in his teenage years and having inadequate male support at home.   For him, it was easy to make a connection, but I also accept that it is not that straightfroward for others.

So, can I ask a couple of questions.  Firstly, what do you want?   What would make you happy?   And on a slightly more personal note (which you might not want to answer), are you sexually active?   That would seem to be none of my business, but I personally make a distinction between 'being gay' and 'gay practice'.   The only way I can understand it, is that we are all born broken and into a sinful world.  We all have impulses to do things which are not what God wants us to do - we all have (if we choose to) make a daily (often hour by hour) surrender to Christ, of all the wrong things which are almost written into our DNA.    I believe that same sex attraction is an outworking of that nature, just in the same way my tendency to want to gossip or sleep with someone I find really attractive.   I basically have to say, 'those things are what I want to do, but they're not God's best for me....so I will not'.

In other words, you're just like me.  You just have a different thing to battle with. 

That would be my take on it.   And that is why I ask the sex question;  there is a difference between being a sinner, and sinning. 

So, what do you want?   Are you content to live life as a single guy without a relationship?  Or do you long for a relationship? 

There are a number of things you can look at - google a guy called Peter Ould (in the UK). He calls himself a 'post gay man'.   He was in a same sex relationship for a long time and cannot remember a time where he did not identify as gay.   However, once he decided to turn to God, he felt he was being called to surrender everything (much like you said) including his perceptions of himself as immovably gay.   Something lovely started to happen to him, as he surrendered his life.   He is now married with children.  I think he probably would still identify as being 'homosexual' in many respects but he has chosen to surrender that and has a really happy and healthy marriage.   

Nothing in this life is black and white - except the love of God.

I don't know if any of that helps.  It is just a few of my thoughts from having walked some of this journey with someone I love very much.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.


Set homosexuality in that context.  When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow.   A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves.  A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.

So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic.  That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule.  After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem. 

While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same.  This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.

Changing gears for a moment...

Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

So are you suggesting that men become gay because our culture supposedly worships women?
I doubt myself that there are any more gay men than there were in previous generations when it was men who were worshipped. It was just more hidden then. It has always been with us. Its just more accepted and open now.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Nov 18, 2012 - 20:34:16

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life?  To me there appears to be something wrong there.  I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex?  That's something that ought to be private, not out on display.  The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts.  Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.

Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?

Quote
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity.  Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men.  When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).

Jarrod

What is this dose of common sense doing here?!

I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!

And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.

But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.

There are still many good men around, and you dont have to be all 'rough and tough' to be a strong man. Strength is what is inside, not what always shows on the outside.   

It is also worth saying that no one knows fully, how our sexuality is formed.   Even established bodies like secular psychiatric associations cannot say conclusively that a person is born that way.   Most will say that sexuality is formed through a variety of different factors.   

And also, for many, many people, it is simply not 'black and white'.   The Kinsey scale tells us that many people have 'grey areas' in ther sexuality and given exposure to harmful things, will find themselves becoming more concrete in their thoughts and desires.   

As an example, when I was single, I was once in a very unhealthy relationship with a man I was not married to.  I will admit that I was in a bad place in my life and I was attracted to this man, purely on sexual grounds.  We had nothing in common but there was something there, that just drew me to him, like a drug.    I messed up big time but what brought it to an end for me, was a sudden light being shone on the situation.   I realised one day how far I had changed - I had gone from being nervous and saddened after each time I was with him, fearing God's judgement....to a position where I was almost able to justify it biblically.   Seriously!   In 12 short months, that is how hard my heart became.

I use that as an illustration to say that when you dip your toe into sin, sooner or later, it grabs all of you, it changes you.  Best advice ever, simply stay away!  And above all else, keep close to God. 

Quote from: Gracey on Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 05:37:16
It is also worth saying that no one knows fully, how our sexuality is formed.   Even established bodies like secular psychiatric associations cannot say conclusively that a person is born that way.   Most will say that sexuality is formed through a variety of different factors.   

And also, for many, many people, it is simply not 'black and white'.   The Kinsey scale tells us that many people have 'grey areas' in ther sexuality and given exposure to harmful things, will find themselves becoming more concrete in their thoughts and desires.   

As an example, when I was single, I was once in a very unhealthy relationship with a man I was not married to.  I will admit that I was in a bad place in my life and I was attracted to this man, purely on sexual grounds.  We had nothing in common but there was something there, that just drew me to him, like a drug.    I messed up big time but what brought it to an end for me, was a sudden light being shone on the situation.   I realised one day how far I had changed - I had gone from being nervous and saddened after each time I was with him, fearing God's judgement....to a position where I was almost able to justify it biblically.   Seriously!   In 12 short months, that is how hard my heart became.

I use that as an illustration to say that when you dip your toe into sin, sooner or later, it grabs all of you, it changes you.  Best advice ever, simply stay away!  And above all else, keep close to God. 

Gracey thats so true. I have seen people justify the most awful things even to divorcing their spouse because God is apparently 'leading them to be with someone else' Incredible I know, but thats the depth of deception  and sin that we can get into.

 
Gracey thats so true. I have seen people justify the most awful things even to divorcing their spouse because God is apparently 'leading them to be with someone else' Incredible I know, but thats the depth of deception  and sin that we can get into.
[/quote]

Yes, I have a family member who says 'God told her' to marry her non-believing husband.  She barely knew him and is now paying the price for that - he has beaten her up and he cheats on her.  She is now saying that 'God' is telling her to stay.

Really?   

The one thing I do know for sure, the heart is deceitful above all things!