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justwonderingshusband@hotmail.com

I don't know how you'd keep that anonymous, but I'm sure there must be a way.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:10:55
I find it interesting that you are bringing up free will from your own points of view.  As a Lutheran, Free Will is paramount in our spiritual existence.  God has placed us here, and we could all have a purpose in his plan.  Every moment of every day there is opportunity to impact the World on His behalf by excercising our Free Will.  If we could only discern what it would be at that moment.  I believe that opportunities presented at some moments may be more important than others, but the point is that in a perfect World our Free Will would be reacting to God's Will.  This is our failure.

With respect to my wife, when I first married her I did so because she followed me.  She didn't really want to, but she did.  Apart from the damage done to our relationship by things that have been said and done, my biggest fear is that she will never again follow me of her own Free Will.  I don't know if I can live like that.  I will never "dominate" a woman, she has to Love and Respect me.  If I can't lead her through discussion and reason, then there really is no hope.

I believe that this is part of our problem, and I really don't know who is in the wrong.  From the very begginning I knew what I wanted and that has never changed.  That worked when she didn't really know what she wanted and was busy with the children.  But now she has decided it is time for her to have what she values the most, instead of what I do.  Her position seems to be that it is my turn to bend to her will, and I just don't know if I am capable of that.  I don't value that kind of life, and I am unwilling to take on the responsibiilty and stress of making it work.  Biblical Marriage aside, I understand her position.  But that doesn't solve our problem.

Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong, its about what is happening now, and about compromise and understanding. We all change over the years, we all grow and we all mature. We all need to be prepared to adapt to each others changes and needs. Why does it have to be a question of everything has to be done MY way because I am the husband? Its about give and take and finding a way somewhere in the middle that you can both be happy with.

We all undergo seasons in life and the wife, after raising her children, still has a life to live! A godly husband encourages his wife to seek out what interests her. He will encourage her to seek God who is, after all, her ultimate leader. When she believes she has discovered what God is calling her to do, he needs to help her attain that goal, selflessly.

Lively Stone, I don't want to be rude.  But I will now display one of those things my wife hates about me, but also respects in me.  You made no bones about saying something like "why are you even here" to me.  I am interested in other viewpoints, but I am willingly singling you out to say "not yours".  We are simply too far apart.  I think we can all find solace in the knowledge that in the eyes of the Lord, we are all failures.  With regard to our differing opinions, we all have the right to excercise our own Free Will.  How far we are from the mark is irrelevant according the Doctrine of Grace, however we must all seek to Discern his Will.  I can catagorically say that my Discernment is saying "DO NOT FOLLOW LIVELY STONE".

Best Wishes

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:57:35
Lively Stone, I don't want to be rude.  But I will now display one of those things my wife hates about me, but also respects in me.  You made no bones about saying something like "why are you even here" to me.  I am interested in other viewpoints, but I am willingly singling you out to say "not yours".  We are simply too far apart.  I think we can all find solace in the knowledge that in the eyes of the Lord, we are all failures.  With regard to our differing opinions, we all have the right to excercise our own Free Will.  How far we are from the mark is irrelevant according the Doctrine of Grace, however we must all seek to Discern his Will.  I can catagorically say that my Discernment is saying "DO NOT FOLLOW LIVELY STONE".

Best Wishes

I'd encourage you on your non-egalitarian route, too--just to add that. PFCHall and p. progress said some good things IMO.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:00:27

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:57:35
Lively Stone, I don't want to be rude.  But I will now display one of those things my wife hates about me, but also respects in me.  You made no bones about saying something like "why are you even here" to me.  I am interested in other viewpoints, but I am willingly singling you out to say "not yours".  We are simply too far apart.  I think we can all find solace in the knowledge that in the eyes of the Lord, we are all failures.  With regard to our differing opinions, we all have the right to excercise our own Free Will.  How far we are from the mark is irrelevant according the Doctrine of Grace, however we must all seek to Discern his Will.  I can catagorically say that my Discernment is saying "DO NOT FOLLOW LIVELY STONE".

Best Wishes

I'd encourage you on your non-egalitarian route, too--just to add that. PFCHall and p. progress said some good things IMO.

Pfc Hall is living with 2 women, so maybe dont take too much notice of anything he says about marriage. He cant even be faithful to his wife.

I think that getting perspectives from wives here(most of whom are in happy marriages) is very important. To just listen to men who think its ok for a men to order their wives around and 'demand' obedience, isnt going to save your marriage.

Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:57:35
Lively Stone, I don't want to be rude.  But I will now display one of those things my wife hates about me, but also respects in me.  You made no bones about saying something like "why are you even here" to me.  I am interested in other viewpoints, but I am willingly singling you out to say "not yours".  We are simply too far apart.  I think we can all find solace in the knowledge that in the eyes of the Lord, we are all failures.  With regard to our differing opinions, we all have the right to excercise our own Free Will.  How far we are from the mark is irrelevant according the Doctrine of Grace, however we must all seek to Discern his Will.  I can catagorically say that my Discernment is saying "DO NOT FOLLOW LIVELY STONE".

Best Wishes

In the eyes of the Lord, we are not failures. He finds us to be righteous and we find success in our endeavours because He is our guide.

You are rude. I do not expect you to follow me. Follow God and the pattern of marriage in the word. My only concern about you being here was that we were about to see a nasty Punch and Judy show between husband and wife.

In Christ, we needn't be far apart at all.

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:17:54
Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:12:39

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:00:27

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:57:35
Lively Stone, I don't want to be rude.  But I will now display one of those things my wife hates about me, but also respects in me.  You made no bones about saying something like "why are you even here" to me.  I am interested in other viewpoints, but I am willingly singling you out to say "not yours".  We are simply too far apart.  I think we can all find solace in the knowledge that in the eyes of the Lord, we are all failures.  With regard to our differing opinions, we all have the right to excercise our own Free Will.  How far we are from the mark is irrelevant according the Doctrine of Grace, however we must all seek to Discern his Will.  I can catagorically say that my Discernment is saying "DO NOT FOLLOW LIVELY STONE".

Best Wishes

I'd encourage you on your non-egalitarian route, too--just to add that. PFCHall and p. progress said some good things IMO.

Pfc Hall is living with 2 women, so maybe dont take too much notice of anything he says about marriage. He cant even be faithful to his wife.

I think that getting perspectives from wives here(most of whom are in happy marriages) is very important. To just listen to men who think its ok for a men to order their wives around and 'demand' obedience, isnt going to save your marriage.

I'm convinced that what I see in modern culture is men taking emasculation from their wives mistakenly thinking that bearing it is part of their "self-sacrificing duty."

And yeah, they'll tell everyone that their marriage is great.

In reality, I believe that isn't good for either of them. Jesus was self-sacrificing, though he is decidedly the leader of his church, telling it what it must do, and the church MUST obey. Adam and Eve were a two-part operation, and Eve was made to be Adam's helper, not vice-versa: "man was not made for woman, but woman for man."

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:17:54
Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

The funny thing is, this all boils down to a manipulation tactic. "Guess what, hubby, I have authority in Christ."

Okay . . . so woman realizing a gift given from Christ basically depends on convincing him to let egalitarianism happen because of some bogus spin on scripture.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:24:21

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:17:54
Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

The funny thing is, this all boils down to a manipulation tactic. "Guess what, hubby, I have authority in Christ."

Okay . . . so woman realizing a gift given from Christ basically depends on convincing him to let egalitarianism happen because of some bogus spin on scripture.

That does not even make sense. I did not have to convince my husband to let egalitarianism happen. He knows we are equals and he treats me as such. No manipulation here, and no bogus spin on scripture.

Also, as I mentioned in the other thread,

Quote"A significant discovery was made in relation to marital satisfaction and role relationships. It discovered that (81%) of equalitarian (egalitarian) couples were happily married, while (82%) of couples where both spouses perceived their relationship as traditional (hierarchical) were mainly unhappy."

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:33:24

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:24:21

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:17:54
Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

The funny thing is, this all boils down to a manipulation tactic. "Guess what, hubby, I have authority in Christ."

Okay . . . so woman realizing a gift given from Christ basically depends on convincing him to let egalitarianism happen because of some bogus spin on scripture.

That does not even make sense. I did not have to convince my husband to let egalitarianism happen. He knows we are equals and he treats me as such. No manipulation here, and no bogus spin on scripture.

Also, as I mentioned in the other thread,

Quote"A significant discovery was made in relation to marital satisfaction and role relationships. It discovered that (81%) of equalitarian (egalitarian) couples were happily married, while (82%) of couples where both spouses perceived their relationship as traditional (hierarchical) were mainly unhappy."

Bunk. As if every marriage in the history of the world was unhappy until feminism came around. Never mind the fact that divorce rates are higher than ever.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:34:58

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:33:24

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:24:21

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:17:54
Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

The funny thing is, this all boils down to a manipulation tactic. "Guess what, hubby, I have authority in Christ."

Okay . . . so woman realizing a gift given from Christ basically depends on convincing him to let egalitarianism happen because of some bogus spin on scripture.

That does not even make sense. I did not have to convince my husband to let egalitarianism happen. He knows we are equals and he treats me as such. No manipulation here, and no bogus spin on scripture.

Also, as I mentioned in the other thread,

Quote"A significant discovery was made in relation to marital satisfaction and role relationships. It discovered that (81%) of equalitarian (egalitarian) couples were happily married, while (82%) of couples where both spouses perceived their relationship as traditional (hierarchical) were mainly unhappy."

Bunk. As if every marriage in the history of the world was unhappy until feminism came around. Never mind the fact that divorce rates are higher than ever.

It has NOTHING to do with feminism, but everything to do with people who love God learning how God's view of marriage truly is.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:32:03

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:10:55
I find it interesting that you are bringing up free will from your own points of view.  As a Lutheran, Free Will is paramount in our spiritual existence.  God has placed us here, and we could all have a purpose in his plan.  Every moment of every day there is opportunity to impact the World on His behalf by excercising our Free Will.  If we could only discern what it would be at that moment.  I believe that opportunities presented at some moments may be more important than others, but the point is that in a perfect World our Free Will would be reacting to God's Will.  This is our failure.

With respect to my wife, when I first married her I did so because she followed me.  She didn't really want to, but she did.  Apart from the damage done to our relationship by things that have been said and done, my biggest fear is that she will never again follow me of her own Free Will.  I don't know if I can live like that.  I will never "dominate" a woman, she has to Love and Respect me.  If I can't lead her through discussion and reason, then there really is no hope.

I believe that this is part of our problem, and I really don't know who is in the wrong.  From the very begginning I knew what I wanted and that has never changed.  That worked when she didn't really know what she wanted and was busy with the children.  But now she has decided it is time for her to have what she values the most, instead of what I do.  Her position seems to be that it is my turn to bend to her will, and I just don't know if I am capable of that.  I don't value that kind of life, and I am unwilling to take on the responsibiilty and stress of making it work.  Biblical Marriage aside, I understand her position.  But that doesn't solve our problem.

Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong, its about what is happening now, and about compromise and understanding. We all change over the years, we all grow and we all mature. We all need to be prepared to adapt to each others changes and needs. Why does it have to be a question of everything has to be done MY way because I am the husband? Its about give and take and finding a way somewhere in the middle that you can both be happy with.

I reread this, and I'm not sure I should send it.  But, I'm anonymous and I'd definetly say it in front of a counselor?  Of course he'd get more details, and hopefully her side of the story as well.

Chosenone, I can't go into too much detail.  But from our upbringings we have polar opposite ways of thinking and living, with very different goals.  We were farmers with a lot of equity, a lot of work, and not a lot of profit.  Good times were when you stacked it up for those hard times.  Her parents spent every paycheck before they ever saw it, but were happier than mine.  At least on the surface.

Problem is that her Dad still works at the age of 75 because he has no savings, while her mother drives around in a Tahoe showing dogs.  She's so right, I am not her father.  I never will be.  Good grief, who signs a 30 Year mortgage on a house when they're almost 50 and have one kid starting college, with 3 more soon to follow.  Considering the details, it's not really that simple.  But yes, I'm not interested in going "all out" on a dream house that I could care less about.  Especially if it truly jeopardizes us financially.  She has the option, but I'm not at all behind it.

It is impossible to really explain it all without saying too much.  If you knew the details you may very well strongly shift to her side, chances are you may never have "followed" me either.  But having said that, my children are who they are because of the choices I made, against her wishes.  They and my wife all now wish they could set the clock back and follow my lead.  But that is not an option, and I can't see forward when I am not allowed to lead.

Our current financial situation is because of me, and the hard life we live.  It was hard, but with many benefits as well.  For years she was ashamed because according to her she looked like an idiot to follow me, but the crash in 2008 left us very well off.  I guess thinking "out of the box" isn't popular with friends and family, but I thought they all looked pretty stupid talking about being "upside down" on their mortgages?  No, I don't care about the opinion of her friends and family.

My point is that I'm not sure we can come to a compromise.  Before that, given our history, I feel that some sort of reconciliation heavily based on true remorse for the UNGODLY things she has said and done has to be addressed.  It isn't about forgiveness, it is about making the word "sorry" actually mean something again.  This actually isn't my idea, the Christian Counselor told her that, and she didn't like it.  After he said that, I have come to realize he's right.  It would help, but not "fix" everything.

This is vulgar, but if I had spent 10 years calling her a "Stupid Bitch" who "Never should have married me....." I would imagine there would be no shortage of support for her demanding my sincere repentance and contrition.  On this forum I am certain that I would be called much worse things than UNGODLY.  However, since I'm a man I am somehow suspect and we should just sweep it under the carpet and move forward.  I am no different than a woman in that respect, after that many years of that kind of treatment she needs to somehow regain my trust.  When I'm no longer afraid to hear her voice, we can work on reconciliation, then compromise.  But I don't think I can move forward without her truly admitting that the way she treated me was wrong.  I don't even know what she could do to prove it to me, her words mean very little to me anymore.

Incidentally, I have only called her a "bitch" once.  I did it carefully, explaining that I was only doing it to show her what it felt like to be called an "asshole", something I can't count the times I've been called.

QuoteBunk. As if every marriage in the history of the world was unhappy until feminism came around. Never mind the fact that divorce rates are higher than ever.

Every marriage in the history of the world? lol. There have been many matriarchal cultures, and even cultures where the husband would take the last name of the wife. After all, the Bible says a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife...literally taken, that could mean that a woman had the right to go whining to daddy for help if her husband was being a bully, or to discuss private marriage matters with her mother, and there would not be a thing the man could do because he had to leave his family to join her. But that is not what it means and I digress.

Women are not tolerating patriarchy anymore. If you know anything about sociology (which I know very little, but enough to know this), not all men were "patriarchal" in the bossy and authoritative sense of the word. Culture was patriarchal and women lived in it, not knowing any different. I'm sure many were happy, and those who were, were likely those whose husbands valued them as intelligent human beings rather than property. Iow, treated them as an equal.

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:17:54
Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

So very true

Lively Stone,

I'm no Biblical authority, but isn't granting yourself the title of being righteous at least a little self-righteous?

The way I was raised, it might even be considered borderline blashpemy.

Best Wishes

A good strong and godly husband is one who thinks first of his wife and cherishes her and treats her with love and respect. A man who DEMANDS obedience and servitude, will never have a happy wife or a good marriage. Follow the example of Jesus. He 'demands' nothing. He NEVER throws His weight around. He leads through love and kindness and understanding. He draws us to Him with unconditional love and leads through His own example of serving others.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:53:22

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:32:03

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:10:55
I find it interesting that you are bringing up free will from your own points of view.  As a Lutheran, Free Will is paramount in our spiritual existence.  God has placed us here, and we could all have a purpose in his plan.  Every moment of every day there is opportunity to impact the World on His behalf by excercising our Free Will.  If we could only discern what it would be at that moment.  I believe that opportunities presented at some moments may be more important than others, but the point is that in a perfect World our Free Will would be reacting to God's Will.  This is our failure.

With respect to my wife, when I first married her I did so because she followed me.  She didn't really want to, but she did.  Apart from the damage done to our relationship by things that have been said and done, my biggest fear is that she will never again follow me of her own Free Will.  I don't know if I can live like that.  I will never "dominate" a woman, she has to Love and Respect me.  If I can't lead her through discussion and reason, then there really is no hope.

I believe that this is part of our problem, and I really don't know who is in the wrong.  From the very begginning I knew what I wanted and that has never changed.  That worked when she didn't really know what she wanted and was busy with the children.  But now she has decided it is time for her to have what she values the most, instead of what I do.  Her position seems to be that it is my turn to bend to her will, and I just don't know if I am capable of that.  I don't value that kind of life, and I am unwilling to take on the responsibiilty and stress of making it work.  Biblical Marriage aside, I understand her position.  But that doesn't solve our problem.

Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong, its about what is happening now, and about compromise and understanding. We all change over the years, we all grow and we all mature. We all need to be prepared to adapt to each others changes and needs. Why does it have to be a question of everything has to be done MY way because I am the husband? Its about give and take and finding a way somewhere in the middle that you can both be happy with.

I reread this, and I'm not sure I should send it.  But, I'm anonymous and I'd definetly say it in front of a counselor?  Of course he'd get more details, and hopefully her side of the story as well.

Chosenone, I can't go into too much detail.  But from our upbringings we have polar opposite ways of thinking and living, with very different goals.  We were farmers with a lot of equity, a lot of work, and not a lot of profit.  Good times were when you stacked it up for those hard times.  Her parents spent every paycheck before they ever saw it, but were happier than mine.  At least on the surface.

Problem is that her Dad still works at the age of 75 because he has no savings, while her mother drives around in a Tahoe showing dogs.  She's so right, I am not her father.  I never will be.  Good grief, who signs a 30 Year mortgage on a house when they're almost 50 and have one kid starting college, with 3 more soon to follow.  Considering the details, it's not really that simple.  But yes, I'm not interested in going "all out" on a dream house that I could care less about.  Especially if it truly jeopardizes us financially.  She has the option, but I'm not at all behind it.

It is impossible to really explain it all without saying too much.  If you knew the details you may very well strongly shift to her side, chances are you may never have "followed" me either.  But having said that, my children are who they are because of the choices I made, against her wishes.  They and my wife all now wish they could set the clock back and follow my lead.  But that is not an option, and I can't see forward when I am not allowed to lead.

Our current financial situation is because of me, and the hard life we live.  It was hard, but with many benefits as well.  For years she was ashamed because according to her she looked like an idiot to follow me, but the crash in 2008 left us very well off.  I guess thinking "out of the box" isn't popular with friends and family, but I thought they all looked pretty stupid talking about being "upside down" on their mortgages?  No, I don't care about the opinion of her friends and family.

My point is that I'm not sure we can come to a compromise.  Before that, given our history, I feel that some sort of reconciliation heavily based on true remorse for the UNGODLY things she has said and done has to be addressed.  It isn't about forgiveness, it is about making the word "sorry" actually mean something again.  This actually isn't my idea, the Christian Counselor told her that, and she didn't like it.  After he said that, I have come to realize he's right.  It would help, but not "fix" everything.

This is vulgar, but if I had spent 10 years calling her a "Stupid Bitch" who "Never should have married me....." I would imagine there would be no shortage of support for her demanding my sincere repentance and contrition.  On this forum I am certain that I would be called much worse things than UNGODLY.  However, since I'm a man I am somehow suspect and we should just sweep it under the carpet and move forward.  I am no different than a woman in that respect, after that many years of that kind of treatment she needs to somehow regain my trust.  When I'm no longer afraid to hear her voice, we can work on reconciliation, then compromise.  But I don't think I can move forward without her truly admitting that the way she treated me was wrong.  I don't even know what she could do to prove it to me, her words mean very little to me anymore.

Incidentally, I have only called her a "bitch" once.  I did it carefully, explaining that I was only doing it to show her what it felt like to be called an "asshole", something I can't count the times I've been called.

I think you're doing a lot of things right and I'd say stand your ground.

Proverbs warns four times about how hard it is living with a contentious woman, and that may be what you have on your hands from the sounds of it (my sympathies to you). Your position is not popular and you're right to complain about the lack of sympathy for her disrespect here. I'd say think strategically, keep standing your ground. We're all called to serve each other, but in order to do so I think you're best bet is to stand firm.

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:34:58

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:33:24

Quote from: Cally on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:24:21

Quote from: Janice on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:17:54
Men are the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. What did Jesus do? Without losing any of his own authority, he GAVE authority TO THE CHURCH. Eph. 5:21 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. The whole relationship between Jesus and the church is about placing the other above self, serving, sacrificing, selflessness, and it is a MUTUAL relationship. Everything Jesus did for us, we do out of love for him, and we are JOINT heirs with Christ. That all says equality, not patriarchy.

I will admit that there are some women out there who have a godly husband who do all those things for his wife, and she will abuse the power she has in Christ. But most women, at least the ones I know who are mature believers, will go the distance to serve, sacrifice and be selfless toward their husband, especially in response to his service, sacrifice and selflessness toward her.

The funny thing is, this all boils down to a manipulation tactic. "Guess what, hubby, I have authority in Christ."

Okay . . . so woman realizing a gift given from Christ basically depends on convincing him to let egalitarianism happen because of some bogus spin on scripture.

That does not even make sense. I did not have to convince my husband to let egalitarianism happen. He knows we are equals and he treats me as such. No manipulation here, and no bogus spin on scripture.

Also, as I mentioned in the other thread,

Quote"A significant discovery was made in relation to marital satisfaction and role relationships. It discovered that (81%) of equalitarian (egalitarian) couples were happily married, while (82%) of couples where both spouses perceived their relationship as traditional (hierarchical) were mainly unhappy."

Bunk. As if every marriage in the history of the world was unhappy until feminism came around. Never mind the fact that divorce rates are higher than ever.

Divorce rates are higher for many reasons. Partly because its is far more accepted now. Partly because its easier to get divorced now. Partly because most women work and have careers and so arent 100% depentant on men. It doesnt mean that marriages were any better or happier then, but that people had to stay in horrible marriages. I certainly know people who had to stay in abusive marriages because they had no alternative. Now they do.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 15:53:22

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:32:03

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:10:55
I find it interesting that you are bringing up free will from your own points of view.  As a Lutheran, Free Will is paramount in our spiritual existence.  God has placed us here, and we could all have a purpose in his plan.  Every moment of every day there is opportunity to impact the World on His behalf by excercising our Free Will.  If we could only discern what it would be at that moment.  I believe that opportunities presented at some moments may be more important than others, but the point is that in a perfect World our Free Will would be reacting to God's Will.  This is our failure.

With respect to my wife, when I first married her I did so because she followed me.  She didn't really want to, but she did.  Apart from the damage done to our relationship by things that have been said and done, my biggest fear is that she will never again follow me of her own Free Will.  I don't know if I can live like that.  I will never "dominate" a woman, she has to Love and Respect me.  If I can't lead her through discussion and reason, then there really is no hope.

I believe that this is part of our problem, and I really don't know who is in the wrong.  From the very begginning I knew what I wanted and that has never changed.  That worked when she didn't really know what she wanted and was busy with the children.  But now she has decided it is time for her to have what she values the most, instead of what I do.  Her position seems to be that it is my turn to bend to her will, and I just don't know if I am capable of that.  I don't value that kind of life, and I am unwilling to take on the responsibiilty and stress of making it work.  Biblical Marriage aside, I understand her position.  But that doesn't solve our problem.

Its not a question of who is right and who is wrong, its about what is happening now, and about compromise and understanding. We all change over the years, we all grow and we all mature. We all need to be prepared to adapt to each others changes and needs. Why does it have to be a question of everything has to be done MY way because I am the husband? Its about give and take and finding a way somewhere in the middle that you can both be happy with.

I reread this, and I'm not sure I should send it.  But, I'm anonymous and I'd definetly say it in front of a counselor?  Of course he'd get more details, and hopefully her side of the story as well.

Chosenone, I can't go into too much detail.  But from our upbringings we have polar opposite ways of thinking and living, with very different goals.  We were farmers with a lot of equity, a lot of work, and not a lot of profit.  Good times were when you stacked it up for those hard times.  Her parents spent every paycheck before they ever saw it, but were happier than mine.  At least on the surface.

Problem is that her Dad still works at the age of 75 because he has no savings, while her mother drives around in a Tahoe showing dogs.  She's so right, I am not her father.  I never will be.  Good grief, who signs a 30 Year mortgage on a house when they're almost 50 and have one kid starting college, with 3 more soon to follow.  Considering the details, it's not really that simple.  But yes, I'm not interested in going "all out" on a dream house that I could care less about.  Especially if it truly jeopardizes us financially.  She has the option, but I'm not at all behind it.

It is impossible to really explain it all without saying too much.  If you knew the details you may very well strongly shift to her side, chances are you may never have "followed" me either.  But having said that, my children are who they are because of the choices I made, against her wishes.  They and my wife all now wish they could set the clock back and follow my lead.  But that is not an option, and I can't see forward when I am not allowed to lead.

Our current financial situation is because of me, and the hard life we live.  It was hard, but with many benefits as well.  For years she was ashamed because according to her she looked like an idiot to follow me, but the crash in 2008 left us very well off.  I guess thinking "out of the box" isn't popular with friends and family, but I thought they all looked pretty stupid talking about being "upside down" on their mortgages?  No, I don't care about the opinion of her friends and family.

My point is that I'm not sure we can come to a compromise.  Before that, given our history, I feel that some sort of reconciliation heavily based on true remorse for the UNGODLY things she has said and done has to be addressed.  It isn't about forgiveness, it is about making the word "sorry" actually mean something again.  This actually isn't my idea, the Christian Counselor told her that, and she didn't like it.  After he said that, I have come to realize he's right.  It would help, but not "fix" everything.

This is vulgar, but if I had spent 10 years calling her a "Stupid Bitch" who "Never should have married me....." I would imagine there would be no shortage of support for her demanding my sincere repentance and contrition.  On this forum I am certain that I would be called much worse things than UNGODLY.  However, since I'm a man I am somehow suspect and we should just sweep it under the carpet and move forward.  I am no different than a woman in that respect, after that many years of that kind of treatment she needs to somehow regain my trust.  When I'm no longer afraid to hear her voice, we can work on reconciliation, then compromise.  But I don't think I can move forward without her truly admitting that the way she treated me was wrong.  I don't even know what she could do to prove it to me, her words mean very little to me anymore.

Incidentally, I have only called her a "bitch" once.  I did it carefully, explaining that I was only doing it to show her what it felt like to be called an "asshole", something I can't count the times I've been called.

Calling each other rude names is very wrong and something that I would never ever do, so I agree there. I cant believe that you cant compromise though. There is always a compromise if you look hard enough and are prepared to accept that you do not have to always get your own way.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 16:02:10
Lively Stone,

I'm no Biblical authority, but isn't granting yourself the title of being righteous at least a little self-righteous?

The way I was raised, it might even be considered borderline blashpemy.

Best Wishes

The bible says that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. What more is there to say? I agree with God. It's more blasphemic to suggest that God is a liar, justwonderingshusband. Perhaps in that case, it's a good thing you don't know the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:57:35
Lively Stone, I don't want to be rude.  But I will now display one of those things my wife hates about me, but also respects in me.  You made no bones about saying something like "why are you even here" to me.  I am interested in other viewpoints, but I am willingly singling you out to say "not yours".  We are simply too far apart.  I think we can all find solace in the knowledge that in the eyes of the Lord, we are all failures.  With regard to our differing opinions, we all have the right to excercise our own Free Will.  How far we are from the mark is irrelevant according the Doctrine of Grace, however we must all seek to Discern his Will.  I can catagorically say that my Discernment is saying "DO NOT FOLLOW LIVELY STONE".

Best Wishes

Don't listen to her? Why on earth not?  She is right on the money that your wife will have changing needs and desires, evolving dreams and goals that God plants in her heart.  She is not a toy. She is not a tool.  She is a person, formed and delighted over every bit as much as you are with your goals, needs and dreams.

Marriage is about compromise.  Supporting and encouraging one another. Not competing for power, standing up for our rights, putting the foot down garbage!

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 19:05:06

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 16:02:10
Lively Stone,

I'm no Biblical authority, but isn't granting yourself the title of being righteous at least a little self-righteous?

The way I was raised, it might even be considered borderline blashpemy.

Best Wishes

The bible says that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. What more is there to say? I agree with God. It's more blasphemic to suggest that God is a liar, justwonderingshusband. Perhaps in that case, it's a good thing you don't know the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

What these things are speaking of is the Grace that we can accept.  Something that we will never deserve, because we are not righteous.  It is like being stranded naked in Antartica.  Your going to freezed to death, unless someone lends you a parka.  When someone offers to lend you a parka and you accept, is it suddenly your parka?  Do you own the parka?  Yes, it is yours for the taking, but to claim ownership?  (Admitedly this example falls short, but I have to try.)  What if a gust of wind comes up and takes the parka, and your naked again.  All the sudden your going to die again.  But lucky you, the very same guy is standing there handing you another parka out of the goodness of their heart.

The only RIGHTEOUS man/human who ever lived was Jesus Christ, our savior.  That is the whole point, we ride to salvation on his coattails through the Grace of God.  God accepts what his son did for us in lieu of the righteousness that we are incapable of ever attaining.  He is showing Grace.

To claim righteousness through "works" or any other Worldly conduct is blasphemy.

Salvation is acquired through continuous and sincere attempts at being righteous, continuous and sincere acceptance and repentance for failing in these attempts, and continuous and sincere acceptance of Grace.  These are things that cannot be weighed or measured by your Pastor, your Prayer Group, your spouse, your family, your friends, the general public, the government, or yourself.  They are weighed and measured by God alone.

Be careful, and yes fearful.  Only God knows whether you are truly sincere.  I sincerely worry about myself?  I fear and Love God.  But what if I have just convinced myself I'm saved simply because of what everyone else thinks of me.  It doesn't matter if I'm the leader at Bible Study or an elder in the Church.  So what, people are not the ones who determine my sincerety.  Only God does, and personally I have to admit failure.  I'm busy dealing with all the other sinners, trying to make my way in this World.  I'm not a bad guy and a lot of people think I'm a good guy, but I know that I'll never be good enough to deserve the the Salvation I am being offered.

We all live in a perpetual state of sin, and measuring ourselves against others is a very misguided notion.  It is important from our Worldly perspective to function socially, and of course obeying Gods Law obviously leads us the right direction and helps us do "good works", which is why living as a Christian leads to a better life and a better World.  But never think you are "good" enough to claim that you are righteous.

It is not a sad or defeating revelation, it is wonderful.  You can quite thinking that you are going to go to Heaven because your a good person, and begin knowing you will go to Heaven because you've accepted the challenge of never forgetting that you really don't deserve it.

You either get it, or you don't.  I believe that we all need to pray for each other, because we all spend our lives failing to "get it".  We just can't, we are inherently insincere and pridefull.  I even feel bad typing this, because I am a failure.  But I have learned to live in the reality of this perpetual state of sin, and ask God's forgiveness for the arrogance that leads me to type this post.  However, as a Christian, I simply cannot let this point go unaddressed.

Again,... the only righteous person who ever set foot on this earth was Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  For any other human to claim righteousness is akin to claiming Godship, which is blasphemy.

(I'm pretty sure that anytime someone was called righteous in the Bible, it was God who said it.  Not man, certainly not themselves.)

You can see from my wife's earlier posts that she vehemetly disagrees with me.  It is a problem.

We are made righteous because of the death of Jesus. We become righteous through HIS righteousness. When God looks at us, He sees us as perfect because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Romans 5v18
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

THis is just one of many verses that speak of this.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 19:05:06

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 16:02:10
Lively Stone,

I'm no Biblical authority, but isn't granting yourself the title of being righteous at least a little self-righteous?

The way I was raised, it might even be considered borderline blashpemy.

Best Wishes

The bible says that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. What more is there to say? I agree with God. It's more blasphemic to suggest that God is a liar, justwonderingshusband. Perhaps in that case, it's a good thing you don't know the bible.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

What these things are speaking of is the Grace that we can accept.  Something that we will never deserve, because we are not righteous.  It is like being stranded naked in Antartica.  Your going to freezed to death, unless someone lends you a parka.  When someone offers to lend you a parka and you accept, is it suddenly your parka?  Do you own the parka?  Yes, it is yours for the taking, but to claim ownership?  (Admitedly this example falls short, but I have to try.)  What if a gust of wind comes up and takes the parka, and your naked again.  All the sudden your going to die again.  But lucky you, the very same guy is standing there handing you another parka out of the goodness of their heart.

The only RIGHTEOUS man/human who ever lived was Jesus Christ, our savior.  That is the whole point, we ride to salvation on his coattails through the Grace of God.  God accepts what his son did for us in lieu of the righteousness that we are incapable of ever attaining.  He is showing Grace.

To claim righteousness through "works" or any other Worldly conduct is blasphemy.

and not one person on this thread has said anything like this!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51Salvation is acquired through continuous and sincere attempts at being righteous, continuous and sincere acceptance and repentance for failing in these attempts, and continuous and sincere acceptance of Grace.  These are things that cannot be weighed or measured by your Pastor, your Prayer Group, your spouse, your family, your friends, the general public, the government, or yourself.  They are weighed and measured by God alone.

Salvation is aquired through the sacrifice of Christ, the Perfect Lamb of God.  No one comes to the Father except through Him. He is quite clear on that!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51Be careful, and yes fearful.  Only God knows whether you are truly sincere.  I sincerely worry about myself?  I fear and Love God.  But what if I have just convinced myself I'm saved simply because of what everyone else thinks of me.  It doesn't matter if I'm the leader at Bible Study or an elder in the Church. 

How sad!  The word says that today is the day of salvation and that we know we are His because the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  You don't have to worry! 

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51So what, people are not the ones who determine my sincerety.  Only God does, and personally I have to admit failure.  I'm busy dealing with all the other sinners, trying to make my way in this World.  I'm not a bad guy and a lot of people think I'm a good guy, but I know that I'll never be good enough to deserve the the Salvation I am being offered.

Thats the whole point! NONE of us will ever be able to deserve it! That's what grace is!  Unmerited favor!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51We all live in a perpetual state of sin,

No we don't.  We are washed, cleaned, forgiven and we have Christ who is our advocate when/if we sin.  This is truth found easily in scripture!  1 John 1:9 If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51and measuring ourselves against others is a very misguided notion. 

I agree with you here..but why are you saing it? No one has said anything about this???

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51It is important from our Worldly perspective to function socially, and of course obeying Gods Law obviously leads us the right direction and helps us do "good works", which is why living as a Christian leads to a better life and a better World.  But never think you are "good" enough to claim that you are righteous.

We are not righteous on our own, and no one is saying that.  We are made the righteousness of God through Christ!

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51It is not a sad or defeating revelation, it is wonderful.  You can quite thinking that you are going to go to Heaven because your a good person, and begin knowing you will go to Heaven because you've accepted the challenge of never forgetting that you really don't deserve it.

THAT is NOT what gets us into Heaven...and Lively NEVER said anything about being a good person.
Christ is the gate, the door the narrow road that we must go through to get to the Father, everything else is trying to climb in another way.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51You either get it, or you don't.  I believe that we all need to pray for each other, because we all spend our lives failing to "get it".  We just can't, we are inherently insincere and pridefull.  I even feel bad typing this, because I am a failure.  But I have learned to live in the reality of this perpetual state of sin, and ask God's forgiveness for the arrogance that leads me to type this post.  However, as a Christian, I simply cannot let this point go unaddressed.

Again,... the only righteous person who ever set foot on this earth was Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  For any other human to claim righteousness is akin to claiming Godship, which is blasphemy.

Really? Anyone else?  2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51(I'm pretty sure that anytime someone was called righteous in the Bible, it was God who said it.  Not man, certainly not themselves.)

And that is what God has done through the promise of His word, that through Christ we are made righteous in His eyes.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 08:26:51You can see from my wife's earlier posts that she vehemetly disagrees with me.  It is a problem.

You should listen to her...she is right.

Quote from: MeMyself on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 20:16:09

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Sun Dec 09, 2012 - 14:57:35
Lively Stone, I don't want to be rude.  But I will now display one of those things my wife hates about me, but also respects in me.  You made no bones about saying something like "why are you even here" to me.  I am interested in other viewpoints, but I am willingly singling you out to say "not yours".  We are simply too far apart.  I think we can all find solace in the knowledge that in the eyes of the Lord, we are all failures.  With regard to our differing opinions, we all have the right to excercise our own Free Will.  How far we are from the mark is irrelevant according the Doctrine of Grace, however we must all seek to Discern his Will.  I can catagorically say that my Discernment is saying "DO NOT FOLLOW LIVELY STONE".

Best Wishes

Don't listen to her? Why on earth not?  She is right on the money that your wife will have changing needs and desires, evolving dreams and goals that God plants in her heart.  She is not a toy. She is not a tool.  She is a person, formed and delighted over every bit as much as you are with your goals, needs and dreams.

Marriage is about compromise.  Supporting and encouraging one another. Not competing for power, standing up for our rights, putting the foot down garbage!

Absolutely.  The problem is that we inevitably come to points of disagreement.  We often compromise, but often as not one simply defers to the other, which is not compromise.  It is simply saying that it isn't important enough to fight about, it is more important to them than you, it doesn't matter that much.  You allow the other to "get their way" because of these reasons, even though you don't agree.  An important point here is that if the decision fails, you should never say "I told you so."  That should never be necessary, the other person should have enough character to admit their mistake.  And to also learn from it, part of which would be adding a few points of respect for their partner's sense of judgement.  It goes both ways, and men and women both have better and poorer areas of judgement.  Hopefully they learn and accept what these areas are, which is complimentary.  It works.

This is why a lot of men really don't seem care about a lot of things that are important to women.  They really don't get it, and they almost can't.  They don't even try, but that doesn't mean they don't care.  They rely on their wife to make those parts of their family's lives work.  It is the same for women.  So many discussions in these areas, started by both wives and husbands, are simply running it by your better half to be sure you didn't overlook the obvious.  After all, if my wife says she wants to paint the house orange, even I can't help but notice that's a bad idea.  Just like me when I'm about to do something that is obviously stupid (which does happen).  When one of us just downloaded a free program off the internet and something strange pops up on the screen, we just wonderingly look at each other as true equals.  Who knows?  Install, or not?  Good thing Wal-Mart sells computers.

The problem isn't that there are always these little problems.  The problem is that there are cases where neither compromise or deferal are an option because it is too important and there is no agreement.  That is where you have to go back to the Bible.  It is very clear.  Not fair, ...but clear.  I wish I could see a better way, but I don't.  When a man comes to that point, he is judge by his wife, his children, the World, and God.  He is under a lot of pressure, and defering my be the easier path, but is it right?  What does God expect of him?  Take the easy road, or follow the Lord.  Is his decision actually following the Lord?  Is he Discerning?  Sometimes virtually everything is at stake, even on some of those seemingly "little things".

(I know that statement leaves me wide open for being labelled a control freak.  But unfortunately women are absolutely right on this one, sometimes it is "the little things" that matter the most.  It would be sooo nice to have a crystal ball to see the future.)

A good point to make here is that there is a difference between discussing, and negotiating.  Quid pro qou has no place in marriage.  It isn't working in our country's government, and it certainly won't work in marriage.  When every decision is nothing more than an opportunity to gain an unspecfied future obligation for one or the other to defer, you have a binding contract granting each party leverage.  What is he using for leverage?  What is she using for leverage?  This is not a marriage.

How a marriage functions is a question of respect, morality, and leadership.

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 09:22:24
How a marriage functions is a question of respect, morality, and leadership.

wow.  Nothing about love, nothing about willingess to sacrifice selfish opinions, nothing about serving one another...

sad.

On the question of Eternal Salvation, with respect to "Salvation", when does "Eternity" start?  Before "Judgement", or after "Judgement"?

Have you been "judged" yet?  When will you be judged?

Are you without sin?  When will your capacity to sin finally end?

I agree, Gods Grace is Eternally present.  All we have to do is accept, after which I personally perpetually fall back into a state of sin.  Here I am, doing it again.  Trying to pull the splinter out of your eye, when I can't see the log in my own.  I try to believe I can feel it, but I'm sure it is a lot bigger than I imagine.

I feel strongly about this, and I didn't come up with it on my own.  It is Doctrine, I remember being 3 years old in Sunday School being told I was a sinner.  My thoughts were a lot like your own, but as I grew older I started to see it in other people.  Then in myself.  I wouldn't worry about it too much, I can see your trying, just like the rest of us sinners.  Never quit trying, it's the effort that counts.

I don't believe you are anymore "saved" than I am, and I certainly don't believe I'm anymore "saved" than you or anyone else.  I just know that at any moment I could do some heinous act that would condemn myself (i.e. lose my salvation).  If I never repent for my sins from that moment forward, would I still be saved?  Or, what if now after accepting God's Grace I went out and did something heinous, am I still saved?

Perhaps I am simply more humble in my acceptance of God's Grace.

Oops, there I did it again!  Lets just drop it, I think it's a Lutheran thing.  We are all sinners before the Lord.

I don't have any questions with respect to salvation, the state of my marriage is my problem.  One thing this forum has shown me is that a lot of my problem might be that I'm a Lutheran.  Missouri synod, I left the ELCA.

WOW...finally both sides have been able to come here and I can catch a glimpse of what is going on.

And boy howdy do I recognize this situation.

and sure enough those that have no clue have been doing most of the talking.

The situation is rather an odd one considering that you are the introvert and she is the extrovert. (not really but just to me)

But I recognize the roles of two strong personality people trying to make a marriage together.

I will say that your behavior has been rather commendable during all of this...yes, you have made some mistakes but it isn't the ones that you are thinking.
And yes, of course, your wife has made some whoppers on top of whoppers during the 20 years.

But you already know this and are just wondering where to go from here.
And the answer is mostly going to come from your wife. (Most of the women here won't agree with me but then again...I'm sure this is no shock since your recent talking to them)

Your wife is very goal oriented. She has to feel as if she is working towards some kind of goal. When you do not have one for her to work towards...she feels completely lost. Granted you have other things on your mind other than a goal to work towards...mostly surviving kids in college and providing for them to do just that.
Also...your wife is very aggressive. (not a bad thing...just an "is" thing) She can turn her passion to almost any goal and accomplish amazing things with that passion. A very wonderful thing to have "on your side".  Currently she wants a better marriage and "life" than what she currently has and has no idea as to how to obtain it for herself or what exactly that would look like if she had it.

You, on the other hand, want a better marriage and see your life as good without any thing added if only she would take the role of being a "good wife" better than what she currently does.


Many of these strong personalities have issues of Narcisism.  (Inability to ever admit fault) Now no one likes to admit fault...especially if they have to do it over and over again. And when you couple that with her strong drive to accomplish something...and it's her fault that you went the wrong direction...catastrophe. She will blame you for just about everything wrong with the world...especially when fueled by a hormonal thing (women have moods and take no real value to them but we guys are left feeling horribly hurt by their words that they never really meant) Where a woman will have some credence to their moods...they are overly magnified by the hormones in their bodies and become blown way out of proportion. Taking that into account will be of some benefit to you.

She wants to always be the leader...unless she has a desire to be "biblically correct" all the while you are "leading" in a direction she approves of.  And that has to stop...she has to give the leadership role to you. While she fusses about your inability to change it is one of the things that attracts her to you. I wouldn't change that character trait at all for her no matter what she says.  She blames you for marrying her? UMMMM...last time I checked both parties had to agree to the marriage and she is just as guilty or right for saying, "I do" just as much as you are.

As far as churches go...I would check out a Methodist Church in your area...they have some of the Liturgy that you like and some of the elements of Baptists that she favors and the evangelical aspect of the church isn't something that either of the two of you would have such an opposition to either.

As far as leadership roles go. You might want to lay down the law as to how this is going to work. She has the home...you have the family. You chart direction and she often gets the particulars of making it happen. These clear lines gotta be established.  Sure she gets input into direction as you love her and want her to be happy...you two are to share the exact same heart and when hers is hurt it is no different than yours being hurt. (Make that point very clear) And where she may like to try some things...your acquiecence hasn't exactly been handled correctly. Very often she hasn't done the homework on the directions she wants to try. Neither have you because her ideas often come out of the blue for you and you have no idea where to look to find the answers of whether this is a good idea or not...(this coupled with her notion that she is never wrong has been rather disasterous)

Any time she resorts to name calling...it is an automatic signal that she is totally frustrated that she has lost the battle. She really wants to win a war by "winning" and how that looks needs to be shaped and changed into more Christian goals than what she has been using for a standard.

My wife and I joined together to place our ministries together in concert with each other to affect change in the world around us. To create a legacy, not of us, but one for God in this community where we live and wish to create this in other places as well. It won't be of anything so spectacular as a building or charity...but of God's Holy Spirit. And that takes time...one gift at a time...one action at a time. I am thinking that if you appeal to your wife in this fashion...you just might gain some traction.

YOU on the other hand need to come up with some direction for how this ministry is going to happen...what generally it needs to look like...what talents do you and your wife have that will compliment each others talents to do whatever it is that you should do...together. She, on the other hand, is to have free range in many of the particulars as well.  Her talents have to be of vital importance to your many projects.  You gotta quit being so quiet that the times that you do speak sound like shouting to her. Share more of your thoughts and feelings and opinions on things. And quit that bowing thing to her feet...kinda weird...it may shock her into being quiet...but that isn't what you really need to do. Just get up and walk away. Get in the car and drive and go get a cup of coffee somewhere till she calms down. (and you can say that too) Her rages need to get under control and that isn't your responsibility either. You can't fix it all. But having empathy and expressing that empathy is going to be really needed.

John, you see things as you see them, and others see them differently. Its not for you to say that others here dont know what they are talking about, especially when some of them have had very long and happy marriages, Also women see things very differently from men, so both perspectives are valid. YOURS and THEIRS, even if you disagree.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 09:37:01

Quote from: justwonderingshusband on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 09:22:24
How a marriage functions is a question of respect, morality, and leadership.

wow.  Nothing about love, nothing about willingess to sacrifice selfish opinions, nothing about serving one another...

sad.

Good point, your right.  Men are always criticized about this, women need to be told that they are loved and men just don't get it.  But it goes both ways, if half the effort that has been placed on men to understand women had been invested in women understanding men (and yes, accepting), there would be a huge gain in happiness.

Women want men to talk about love and show love. But men have a hard time doing that, they instead instictivly "demonstrate" Love.  I think women take for granted or don't even notice the ways men demonstrate their love.  How could they, they don't really understand men?  I get a brain cramp thinking about it, so I'm not going to try to explain.

As for talking about love and showing love.  How many times does a woman keep going back to a man that beats her simply because he always tells her he loves her and somehow shows her it's true, until he beats her again.  How many women leave a man because he doesn't tell her or show her he loves her, but he doesn't beat her and does provide for her and their children.  Those are two extremes, but I think it demonstrates that women could show a little more understanding.  Men don't put a lot of faith in words, it doesn't take a lot of effort to blow a little hot air.  They are more interested in actions, and they demonstrate their Love through actions.

Women do to, but a lot of things women seem to view as "sacrifices", men view as responsibilities.  That is another huge area of differing perspective.  I have NEVER sacrificed for my wife or family.  The proof of that is that I am still alive and breathing.  But, I've always worked very hard.  I think our differing perceptions of "sacrifice" is important.  I'm getting a brain cramp again.


Incidentally, there are a lot of places in the Bible where it tells you not to trust your heart.  And a lot of places that do tell you to follow your heart?  I'm not sure I'm correct here, but I think that the origonal language of the Bible had several different terms/kinds of Love?  Maybe that's part of the problem for English speaking people, one word for Love?  I think the Eskimos have like 100 words for snow.  Communication, Love?  Discernment? Braincramp?


Oh, one last thing.  Has your husband ever bowed down to the floor and pressed his head against the tops of your feet and begged you to calm down?  Don't ever question my capacity to compromise, defer, or Love.  We have some problems.  I wanted the counselor, my wife chose the internet.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Dec 10, 2012 - 10:38:57
John, you see things as you see them, and others see them differently. Its not for you to say that others here dont know what they are talking about, especially when some of them have had very long and happy marriages, Also women see things very differently from men, so both perspectives are valid. YOURS and THEIRS, even if you disagree.

Its the strong personality that wants to be in the lead thingy that you, lively and MeMyself have that is being the issue at the moment...of course you aren't going to see it as a problem. But that sort of personality in a woman along with some of her other personality traits which has been left to fester into something that it shouldn't be is exactly the problem.

Not that having a strong personality is a problem in itself...just that you three wouldn't even begin to see how it will emasculate a guy who tends to stay reserved.

QuoteThe problem is that we inevitably come to points of disagreement.  We often compromise, but often as not one simply defers to the other, which is not compromise.

In conflict resolution, simply making compromise is not usually an option. Eventually the one who does the compromising will likely become resentful. Effective conflict resolution requires creative ways of reaching a win-win solution, and when there has to be compromise, there will be enough understanding and care that resentment will not have a chance to take root.

Imo, the biggest part of conflict resolution is examining the "sides" - not the typical list of pros and cons, but really examining. Answering "why" you want something is not enough  - there needs to be deep understanding of the dynamics of the conflict. It might help to take a course in effective conflict management. I say "management" because some conflicts can never be resolved, but they can be managed respectfully. When  you manage conflict, always ask yourself what love looks like in that situation. Love is not always about deferring to the other or even compromising. Sometimes love demands the painful process of iron sharpening iron.

Be creative in finding ways to meet both your needs.