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Don K. Preston D. Div.


"It shall be in that day that living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea and half of them toward the hinder sea; in summer and winter it shall be" (Zechariah 14:8).

To the ancient Jew living in the promised land water was the image of life and blessings. Zechariah promised that when the Messiah came in judgment (v. 1, 5) "living waters" would flow from Jerusalem. It would flow to all peoples--from sea to sea. It would be an endless supply--in summer and winter.

Water conjured up images of the Garden of Eden and Man's once intimate relationship to God (Genesis 2:10).

Water also symbolized cleansing and purity. The sacrificial system of the Old Covenant had various "washings"( Hebrews 9:9-14) that sanctified to the purifying of the flesh. While never effective for the cleansing of the conscience, the cleansing of these ceremonies nonetheless symbolized the purity that was necessary to approach God.

Zechariah's promise of living waters therefore carried with it a rich variety of concepts; [resurrection] life, cleansing, blessings, etc.. Zechariah was clearly not therefore, speaking of literal water.

THE FOUNTAIN IN PROPHECY


Zechariah's prediction that God would open a fountain for the cleansing of sin is consistent with other prophets.

Joel predicted that in the "last days" consummating in the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, Jehovah would open a fountain for cleansing. That fountain would flow "from the house of the Lord" (3:18) for the acquittal of the sins of Israel (v. 21).

Isaiah contains several Messianic prophecies that mention the flowing of abundant waters in the Kingdom. In 12:3 Isaiah foretold the time when God's people would draw waters from the well of salvation. In 31:25f the prophet said that in the kingdom "on every high mountain and on every high hill there shall be rivers and streams of water"; this would also be "in the day of great slaughter."

In Isaiah 35 the Lord promised that in the day of His coming: "waters shall burst forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert" (v. 6-7). This cannot be Jesus' incarnate ministry; it refers to his coming "with a vengeance, and with the recompense of God" (v. 4). Salvation and judgment would be joined, "He will come and save you" (Isaiah 35:4).

Jesus said of his coming against Jerusalem: "these be the days of vengeance when all things that are written must be fulfilled" (Luke 21:22).

Ezekiel 47 contains a graphic description of the River of Life. The river flows from the Temple of God at Jerusalem eastward all the way to the Dead Sea. This river is unique because "When it reaches the sea, its waters are healed. And it shall be that every living thing that moves, wherever the river goes will live...everything will live wherever the river goes" (v. 8-9). The River brings the dead to life!

Zechariah 12-14 contains another reference to the fountain being opened. In chapter 12:10f Adonai foretold the time when all the tribes of the land would mourn and look on the one whom they had pierced. Jesus quotes this verse in Matthew 24:30 and says it would be fulfilled in his coming against Jerusalem.

In chapter 13:1 the prophet said "in that day"--the day of mourning--"a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness"

The day of mourning would be the time of Jesus' coming against Jerusalem in AD 70 (Matthew 24:30). The time of mourning would be when God would open a fountain for the cleansing of the sins of Israel. Therefore Jesus' coming against Jerusalem, in AD 70, would be the time when the fountain for the cleansing of the sins of Israel would be opened.


Zechariah was not saying there would be no cleansing for sin prior to that Day of mourning. He was focussed on the consummation of the work of the "Branch" (Zechariah 6:13), who would be betrayed in the house of friends (13:6) when they would weigh out the thirty pieces of silver (11:12). One cannot divorce initiation from consummation or "vice versa." The work Jesus began in his ministry would be perfected at his parousia (1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Hebrews 9:24-28).

With this caveat it is nonetheless true that the prophetic emphasis is on the judgment coming of the Lord when speaking of the Fountain for Sin. In Joel 2-3, Isaiah 31; 35, and Zechariah 12-14 the context is the same; the coming of the Lord in judgment against Israel.


JESUS AND LIVING WATERS

Jesus came to confirm the promises made to the Fathers (Romans 15:8). His promises are not new ones severed from Israel's promises. When Jesus therefore promised living waters he was promising to fulfill Joel, Isaiah, and Zechariah.

In John 4 Jesus promised the Samaritan woman: "The water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life" (4:14); he promised "living water" (4:10).

Zechariah predicted the coming of living waters. Jesus offered living waters. Was the "living water" Jesus offered the woman at Sychar different than what the prophets of Old anticipated?

THE SPIRIT AND THE WATER OF LIFE

At the feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem: "On the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out saying, `If a man thirsts let him come to me and drink. He who believes on me, as the scriptures has said, `out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'" (John 7:37-39).

The miraculous outpouring of the Spirit was to be a "last days" work (Joel 2:28-32) to bring Israel back from the dead (Ezekiel 37:14).

In Acts 2 Israel stood before God "dead" in her sin ( Romans 7:7-14); under the curse (Galatians 3:10f). The Holy Spirit appeared on the Apostles and they in turn preached Jesus and him crucified. They promised the forgiveness of sin in Jesus' name upon repentance and baptism (2:38). They then promised that the obedient could receive the promise of the Spirit (2:39). That day three thousand of Israel responded to the Messiah. Were they raised from the dead?

In Romans 11 Paul said the remnant had received "that for which Israel seeks" (11:7). In a word, Israel sought "resurrection"; this was the hope of Israel, Acts 24-26. Further, Paul said that while Israel had not yet attained to her hope and the remnant had, when Israel would turn this would be "life from the dead" (11:15). Biological death and life is clearly not the focus here. It is life and fellowship with God.

Paul spoke of this miraculous work of the Spirit as "the Earnest [arrabon] of the inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Ephesians 1:13-14). The miraculous mission of the Spirit was the Earnest of resurrection life (2 Corinthians 5:5).



One cannot divorce the ministry of the Spirit from Israel's last days resurrection hope. Nor can one protract the miraculous ministry beyond that time of fulfillment. The Spirit's miraculous ministry was limited to the last days. The life resulting from the Spirit's work would flow forever.


JESUS AND THE WATER OF LIFE

Does the believer in Christ today have the Water of Life that Jesus promised in John 4? If not the Old Covenant promises stand unfulfilled; and this means the Old Covenant stands as valid today (Matthew 5:17-18).

If we do not have the Water of Life today Israel remains God's chosen people and the object of his promises of life. God's promise of the River of Life was to Israel, and "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29). God could not cut off Israel without fulfilling his promises to her.

If we do not have the Water of Life there is no resurrection from sin death today. Jesus, in John 5:24-25, said those believing in him have "everlasting life" and have "passed from death into life." Notice the correlation between Jesus' "water" that gives eternal life and this resurrection to everlasting life.

If we do not have the Water of Life today the Spirit's miraculous ministry is unfulfilled. If eternal life is the possession of the believer the Spirit has fulfilled his miraculous mission and those gifts have ceased.

Most believers would assert in the strongest terms that we do indeed enjoy the Water of Life in Christ today. As Joe Musselwhite has shown in an article in the "Presence," the [true] claim that the Water of Life is a present reality has tremendous eschatological implications.

ISRAEL'S HOPE AND THE RIVER OF LIFE

In the Old Covenant, the River of Life flows from Israel's judgment (Isaiah 35; Joel 3; Zechariah 14:1-8). What relationship would the fall of Rome, per the amillennial view of Babylon and Revelation, have to the River of Life? None. What Old Testament prophecy associated the opening of the River of Life with the fall of Roman Catholicism? None. What connection would the Eastern European Common Market have with the River of Life? None.

The River would flow from the fulfillment of Israel's promises. John said Revelation was the anticipation of what the prophets had foretold, and the time of fulfillment was "at hand" (Revelation 22:6-8). Any attempt to remove the River of Life from the fulfillment of Israel's promises is improper.

Furthermore, all the prophets place the opening of the fountain in the context of the Lord's coming against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8--"in that day"). The fountain is for the cleansing of sin. These facts completely refute the claim that the "redemption" associated with the fall of Jerusalem (Luke 21:28) was physical deliverance. This also negates the idea that the fall of Jerusalem was strictly localized in meaning.

WHENCE COMES THE FLOW?
If, as we strongly believe, the Water of Life is truly available to believers today, from whence does it flow? This may seem like a facetious question at first but it is significant.

In the Old Covenant prophecies the River of Life would flow from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8, from the Temple, Ezekiel 47, the house of the Lord, Joel 3:18). The River of Life would flow from the New Jerusalem.

In Revelation, John depicts the destruction of Babylon, the Old Jerusalem. In the "New Jerusalem" that would follow, Jesus and the Father sit on the throne (22:3). From that Throne flows the River of Life (22:1-2). The River of Life would flow to the nations after, and as a result of, the coming of the Lord (18-19) the Resurrection (20:10f), the destruction of heaven and earth (21:1), the fall of Babylon (18-19).

If the River of Life is available to the believer today Babylon has fallen; heaven and earth has passed away; the Resurrection has occurred at the Parousia of the Lord. Conversely, if these things have not occurred we have no Water of Life today. There is no salvation. There is no satisfaction for those who "hunger and thirst after righteousness" (Matthew 5:6).

THE RIVER AND TODAY

At the close of his Apocalypse the Lord caused these wonderful words to be penned: "The Spirit and the Bride say `Come!' And let him who hears say `Come!' And let him who thirsts come. And let whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely." Be sure to read my Who Is This Babylon? for a fuller discussion of the River of Life and Zechariah 14:5.


Must we wait who knows how much longer, per all futurist views of eschatology, to truly drink from the River of Life? Or is that invitation truly applicable today? We firmly and gladly believe so. The atoning fountain was opened at the Cross, guaranteed by the Spirit, and perfected at the parousia (Hebrews 9:24-28). Christ is on the Throne and the River flowing from it is pure, sweet, satisfying and abundant--open to all. Let him who is athirst come! There is no more waiting.

Since you brought up Zech 14, what about these verses?

16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord  of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

When has any other nation sent an official delegation to Israel to keep the feast of Tabernacles?

Never.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Oct 09, 2012 - 12:08:55
Since you brought up Zech 14, what about these verses?

16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord  of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

When has any other nation sent an official delegation to Israel to keep the feast of Tabernacles?

Never.

Search the Scriptures and we find the clue in Rev.11:8. Ancient Jerusalem was also called "Sodom and Egypt" by the Lord.
And since Sodom was completely destroyed, we are still left with "Egypt."

Revelation 11:8 (NKJV)

8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

WHY JESUS RECKONED ANCIENT JERUSALEM AS SODOM

When the Apostles asked about the pending destruction of the temple, Jesus uses the example of Lots escape from fire in Luke 17:29-32:

28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, and they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Lot was given a chance to escape, but the rest remained. In the very same way, Jesus came to set the captives free, and escape the coming wrath. Both John the Baptist and St. Peter pleaded with their kindred to repent of their wickedness in order to receive "times of refreshing" and escape this pending travesty. But they refused to their own deaths in 70AD. We know from history that the entire city of Jerusalem was destroyed by fire in 70AD. Thus, Jerusalem was referred to as "Sodom" because like Sodom, they too would be destroyed with fire and brimstone (figuratively speaking). Jesus gave ample warning to those who would listen and believe in Him. If they wanted to avoid destruction, they must then heed the signs He provided to them. Unfortunately, most of the Jews failed to listen and thus ended up being destroyed by fire just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Therefore, Jerusalem was spiritually reckoned as Sodom because they failed to heed God's warning, refused to repent, and were thus destroyed by fire as Sodom suffered.

WHY JESUS RECKONED ANCIENT JERUSALEM AS EGYPT

This one should not present a challenge by any means. Jesus, like Moses, was sent as a Prophet to lead the slaves out of Egypt. Even St. Paul states that his kindred according to the flesh were left in a state of slavery of the Old Law because they refused to believe in Jesus, and thus be set free. But let's recall what was said to Moses:

Deuteronomy 18:15-22

15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' 21 And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Jesus, in Matthew 24, Luke 17, and Mark 13, all state that false prophets would come and deceive even the elect, if possible. Moses predicted this about 1500 years before Christ. God would send a prophet just like Moses who led the slaves out of Egypt, to set them free. But the rest would be fooled by a false prophet; in fact, by SEVERAL false prophets. Egypt is a picture of the Hebrews enslavement. Moses was sent to the Hebrews to set them free. In the same allegorical way, Jesus was sent to "Egypt", (applied to Israel) in order to set them free from enslavement of the laws curse and sin. But false prophets would mislead them, most coming from the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. Jesus, when He first presented Himself, according to Luke 4 reads:

18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."

Jesus came to set free the captives, just as Moses was sent to set free the captives. Thus, Jerusalem (and all Israel) had become much like Egypt, and hence the reason why Jesus reckoned Jerusalem as Egypt. Like their forefathers who were led into the wilderness and died because they yearned for delicious choice meats, clothing, and riches, the first century Apostate Jews also yearned for wealth, riches, and deliciousness.

In conclusion, it's quite clear that ancient Apostate Israel was spiritually reckoned as Sodom and Egypt. The slaves to sin who refused to be set free were left under judgment of the destruction of Jerusalem by fire, just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Jesus, like Moses, came to set them free, but they refused. Ancient Jerusalem was the "great city" of the first century that remained in slavery, and was eventually destroyed by the fires.

Quote from: Lehigh on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 17:36:52

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Oct 09, 2012 - 12:08:55
Since you brought up Zech 14, what about these verses?

16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord  of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

When has any other nation sent an official delegation to Israel to keep the feast of Tabernacles?

Never.

Search the Scriptures and we find the clue in Rev.11:8. Ancient Jerusalem was also called "Sodom and Egypt" by the Lord.
And since Sodom was completely destroyed, we are still left with "Egypt."

Revelation 11:8 (NKJV)

8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

WHY JESUS RECKONED ANCIENT JERUSALEM AS SODOM

When the Apostles asked about the pending destruction of the temple, Jesus uses the example of Lots escape from fire in Luke 17:29-32:

28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, and they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Lot was given a chance to escape, but the rest remained. In the very same way, Jesus came to set the captives free, and escape the coming wrath. Both John the Baptist and St. Peter pleaded with their kindred to repent of their wickedness in order to receive "times of refreshing" and escape this pending travesty. But they refused to their own deaths in 70AD. We know from history that the entire city of Jerusalem was destroyed by fire in 70AD. Thus, Jerusalem was referred to as "Sodom" because like Sodom, they too would be destroyed with fire and brimstone (figuratively speaking). Jesus gave ample warning to those who would listen and believe in Him. If they wanted to avoid destruction, they must then heed the signs He provided to them. Unfortunately, most of the Jews failed to listen and thus ended up being destroyed by fire just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Therefore, Jerusalem was spiritually reckoned as Sodom because they failed to heed God's warning, refused to repent, and were thus destroyed by fire as Sodom suffered.

WHY JESUS RECKONED ANCIENT JERUSALEM AS EGYPT

This one should not present a challenge by any means. Jesus, like Moses, was sent as a Prophet to lead the slaves out of Egypt. Even St. Paul states that his kindred according to the flesh were left in a state of slavery of the Old Law because they refused to believe in Jesus, and thus be set free. But let's recall what was said to Moses:

Deuteronomy 18:15-22

15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' 21 And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Jesus, in Matthew 24, Luke 17, and Mark 13, all state that false prophets would come and deceive even the elect, if possible. Moses predicted this about 1500 years before Christ. God would send a prophet just like Moses who led the slaves out of Egypt, to set them free. But the rest would be fooled by a false prophet; in fact, by SEVERAL false prophets. Egypt is a picture of the Hebrews enslavement. Moses was sent to the Hebrews to set them free. In the same allegorical way, Jesus was sent to "Egypt", (applied to Israel) in order to set them free from enslavement of the laws curse and sin. But false prophets would mislead them, most coming from the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. Jesus, when He first presented Himself, according to Luke 4 reads:

18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."

Jesus came to set free the captives, just as Moses was sent to set free the captives. Thus, Jerusalem (and all Israel) had become much like Egypt, and hence the reason why Jesus reckoned Jerusalem as Egypt. Like their forefathers who were led into the wilderness and died because they yearned for delicious choice meats, clothing, and riches, the first century Apostate Jews also yearned for wealth, riches, and deliciousness.

In conclusion, it's quite clear that ancient Apostate Israel was spiritually reckoned as Sodom and Egypt. The slaves to sin who refused to be set free were left under judgment of the destruction of Jerusalem by fire, just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Jesus, like Moses, came to set them free, but they refused. Ancient Jerusalem was the "great city" of the first century that remained in slavery, and was eventually destroyed by the fires.

Excellent summary.

If we are to interpret Zechariah 14 correctly we must find the parallel account in Revelation that tells of the foregone fulfilled conclusion of the prophecy mentioned in Zechariah 14.

LeHigh you are truthfully executing the Word of God

Yeh be strong Yeh be ever strong in The Lord our God

Blessings from a brother in Christ and let Christ's truth set them free in mind, heart and spirit.

LeHigh try to bring as many captives that the devil has blinded and imprisoned mind, heart and spirit, back to the feet of Christ.

"It shall be in that day that living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea and half of them toward the hinder sea; in summer and winter it shall be" (Zechariah 14:8).

This is not earthly Jerusalem. Zechariah is giving an account of New Jerusalem when its gates were first opened to the Saints of the Old Covenant when the Tombs were opened and the resurrection of the dead was initiated by Jesus Christ's resurrection, as per the Word of God.

Matthew 27:52-53 (NIV)
52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Notice here the Holy City is Heavenly New Jerusalem. The resurrection of the dead started happening from the time AFTER Jesus's resurrection. This historical event that started back then opened the flood gates to many pilgrims who are traveling from the south (earthly realm) in droves, in their spiritual Exodus II (while in the body) to visit the King of the North Jesus Christ. North being the Heavenly realm where the King sits in His Kingdom on the throne of David judging all nations.

Isaiah 41:25 (KJV)
25I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.

The resurrection of the dead happened when Christ defeated death and satan who had the power over death by paying in full at cavalry for our purchase price, redeeming us from death. He would then leave with us a guarantor or Ara-boon (safety deposit), who is God the Holy Spirit who puts God's SEAL of approval on our VISAS so that we can in our pilgrimage from the south (earthly realm), migrate to the Heavenly City New Jerusalem to visit the King of the North Jesus Christ.

The resurrection of the dead has happened when Christ was resurrected and abolished death forever for the faithful sealed in Christ by the Ara-boon, God the Holy Spirit. We see the fulfillment of the prophecy in Ezekiel 37:12 as being signed, sealed and delivered in Christ for all pilgrims in Matthew 27:52-53.

Ezekiel 37:12 (NIV)
Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

That is why Jesus would say the following in:

Matthew 16:28 (NIV)
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

You see those that lived to witness the resurrection of Jesus would not taste death or suffer to go down to the grave as the Old Covenant Saints did like Daniel who was told to wait in his lot in the end of his days when he died. Since the the faithful have a guarantor in God the Holy Spirit who never leaves them, they can never suffer to go down to the grave and wait to be resurrected, but are in a moment and in a twinkling of an eye resurrected in immortal spirit bodies of flesh and bone like our Lord to be with Him in New Jerusalem. (Romans 8:11)


Notice also Matthew 16:28 states that Jesus Christ went into His Kingdom which He prepared for the faithful. Jesus says He will personally at our last trumpet come and personally get us to be with Him in New Jerusalem and this is reality friends. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

Therefore according to Zechariah 14:8 that parallels an already fulfilled prophecy in Christ  declared in:

Revelation 21:2 (KJV)
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

John does not prophecy here, he simply gives witness of the fact that this Holy City is present, that is, past tense, present tense and future tense.

Remember that on the seventh trumpet that Christ sounds declaring time no longer, we see Him coming with all His already resurrected saints who proceeded the living that would be alive in those days at the end of age. This Holy City was already built up and occupied by Saints of Old and there have been many countless New Covenant Saints that have been migrating to visit the King of the North in the last almost 2000 years.

John 14:3 (KJV)
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Notice the verse is a declaration of an already fulfilled Word that harmonizes all the above versus and many books of the Bible. As Paul states if there be no resurrection of the dead then your faith is in vain. At the same time Paul states that if he is away from the body he is immediately with The Lord and that there is no delay for him being awarded the crown of righteousness.

So Israel and Jerusalem for the last almost 2000 years have been Heavenly where the King of the North Christ Jesus sits on the throne of David in His already established Kingdom. Zechariah 14:8 pictures an event ahead in time where it is paralleled by its fulfillment in Revelation 21:2.

The Living Waters in Heavenly New Jerusalem is the Lord's presence and His presence reaches out to both the hinder sea (Old Covenant Redeemed Saints) and the former sea (New Covenant pilgrims who have been migrating when they die as the two witnesses of Revelation to visit the King of the North).

King River Salmon Run depicts what has been spiritually happening to Christians throughout the almost 2000 years. Today less salmons are making the King River Run and so too are fewer pilgrims coming to visit the King these days. The spiritual river is drying up of pilgrims and this coincides with the end of age where judgement comes upon the whole inhabitants of the land, when the Battle Bow, God the Father comes out from His place on the Great day of The Lord, on the day of Great slaughter and sacrifice to execute judgement upon all. The inhabitants and the land will be killed off forever.

Zechariah 14 depicts the King already enthroned and His Kingdom established and what is uniquely different to this Heavenly realm is in the detail of symbolism used by Zechariah to try and describe what eternity will be like.

Zechariah 14:6-7 (NLT)
6On that day the sources of light will no longer shine,c 7yet there will be continuous day! Only the LORD knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.

Notice no source of light which is the sun in our solar system. It will not be dictated by the cycle of day or night as in genesis one and therefore is as one day where time stands still. This is describing timeless eternity. All is likened to the evening as the Lord's light will shine on the inhabitants of Heavenly New Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:8 (KJV)
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Notice also that the living waters come from Christ onto the inhabitants of New Jerusalem will be continuous in summer and in winter. This even depicts a Heavenly reality that is not dictated by the cycles of seasons where rain only comes in winter. This is timeless eternity where The Lord's Living Waters will be continuous uninterrupted and not according to the cycle of seasons as in genesis one.

Zechariah and Revelation are describing timeless eternity of the Heavenly Kingdom where the King of the North Christ Jesus sits and rules all nations and His many nations that are called Israel and the Holy City is called New Jerusalem as far as God is concerned.

If any eschatology renders a meaning outside of the above explained it would not harmonize the Word of God and would fall according to man made intellect born from the earthly realm and not the Heavenly Realm that is of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Thanks for the contributions showing the fulfilment of these Scriptures in Christ, & the Scriptural "last times."

Zechariah must be one of the most abused books in Scripture, with its prophecies of Christ moved to a fictitious future end times.

Quote from: Soldier of the Cross on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 20:03:09
"It shall be in that day that living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea and half of them toward the hinder sea; in summer and winter it shall be" (Zechariah 14:8).

This is not earthly Jerusalem. Zechariah is giving an account of New Jerusalem

Replacement theology trash. Anything to take away a physical fulfillment of a promise to physical Israel. Somehow spiritualize it to the church.

WRONG!!!!

All promises to physical Israel will be physically fulfilled to physical Israel.  (with or without the church)  Any other understanding makes God a liar.

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jan 10, 2013 - 05:53:45

Quote from: Soldier of the Cross on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 20:03:09
"It shall be in that day that living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea and half of them toward the hinder sea; in summer and winter it shall be" (Zechariah 14:8).

This is not earthly Jerusalem. Zechariah is giving an account of New Jerusalem

Replacement theology trash. Anything to take away a physical fulfillment of a promise to physical Israel. Somehow spiritualize it to the church.

WRONG!!!!

All promises to physical Israel will be physically fulfilled to physical Israel.  (with or without the church)  Any other understanding makes God a liar.

What did Jesus promise physical Israel?
Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And Peter,
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

quoting Moses?
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

And Paul?
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Not forgetting Abraham:
Gen. 3:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Your verses do not refute my point at all.

God keeps his promises.

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jan 10, 2013 - 05:53:45

Quote from: Soldier of the Cross on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 20:03:09
"It shall be in that day that living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea and half of them toward the hinder sea; in summer and winter it shall be" (Zechariah 14:8).

This is not earthly Jerusalem. Zechariah is giving an account of New Jerusalem

Replacement theology trash. Anything to take away a physical fulfillment of a promise to physical Israel. Somehow spiritualize it to the church.

WRONG!!!!

All promises to physical Israel will be physically fulfilled to physical Israel.  (with or without the church)  Any other understanding makes God a liar.

Nope. Absolutely wrong.  And don't accuse us of calling God a liar when Jesus clearly said that 2/3 of "physical Israel "missed the time of their visitation" - Lk 19:41-44.

And Paul, a former Pharisee, tells you plainly, Romans 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

And, Romans 9:6, New Living Translation
Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God's people!

Understand the will of the Lord, Dave W. and stop defending those of the flesh!

God is not wrong!

Quote from: Lehigh on Thu Jan 10, 2013 - 11:07:28

Nope. Absolutely wrong.  And don't accuse us of calling God a liar when Jesus clearly said that 2/3 of "physical Israel "missed the time of their visitation" - Lk 19:41-44.

And you think that changes what God promised?  It does not.  The Mosaic covenant promises will all be fulfilled EXACTLY as God said them.

QuoteAnd Paul, a former Pharisee, tells you plainly, Romans 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

That is not talking about promises contained in the books of Moses or the Hebrew Prophets.

Have you not read in Rom 11 that Paul said "the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable?" Every promise is a gift that God will NOT fail to fulfill.

And the church is NOT "spiritual Israel" (which is  a concept that never is mentioned in scripture) but are of the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2:12) meaning that the gentile church gets to PARTICIPATE in those promises; not preempt them.

DaveW - who does "all Israel" comprise, in Rom. 11 ?

all the descendants of Israel ?
a 7,000 remnant ?
1/3 of those living at the beginning of the tribulation ?
or
all who have saving faith in Christ, both Jew & Gentile ?
or ?? Tell us.

Scripture clearly declares that God's promise to ancient Israel was fulfilled completely in the seed of promise Jesus Christ when He said "It is finished".

Scripture clearly declares that God will rebuild Jerusalem onto the messiah in troublous times in 69weeks of Daniel's prophecy and in the middle of the 70th the messiah will be cut of, yet will establish the covenant in one week (70th week) with the living and the dead.

Scripture declares that God told King David that He will deliver the promise to Israel through David's seed, the seed of promise Jesus Christ.

Scripture declares that Jesus told his disciples to first preach to Israel and not the Gentiles and that fulfilled the promise that salvation came to the jews first in which many rejected it.

Matthew 22:1-10 (KJV)
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them (Jews first) that were bidden to the wedding: and they (jews) would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants (disciples), saying, Tell them (the jews) which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they (the jews) made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant (jewish Pharisees) took his servants (disciples), and entreated them spitefully, and slew them (killed Christ's disciples). 7 But when the king (Jesus Christ) heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies (Roman Empire Nero), and destroyed those murderers (Levitical Jewish priesthood), and burned up their city (70AD earthly Jerusalem). 8 Then saith he to his servants (disciples), The wedding is ready, but they (jews) which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways (Gentiles), and as many (Gentiles) as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants (disciples) went out into the highways (Gentiles), and gathered together all as many (Gentiles) as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


God delivered His promise of SALVATION firstly to the Jewish house through Jesus Christ, but the Jews rejected God's salvation offer that He promised and turned to killing His disciples who were delivering that promise to the Jews first.

The promised door of salvation was FIRST offered to the Jews and they didn't want the promise that was delivered to them and rejected the promise that God made to their forefathers that was delivered in full to the front of their doorstep.

That is why in Matthew 20:16 (NIV)

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

The last to have the gospel preached to were the Gentiles and they accepted the delivered promise with open arms and therefore became the first.

The first being the Jews wanted no part of the promise that was delivered and therefore relegated themselves to last on God's salvation plan.

As the saying goes:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Meaning. People, like horses, will only do what they have a mind to do.

If God promised ancient Israelites through its Old Testament prophets a promise and delivers on that promise in full, but the Jews want no part of it, then what can you say?

People that continue to say God has not yet delivered on His promise are either outright deceived or liars.

1 John 2:22 (NIV)
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.

How can anyone dare say that God has not delivered on His promise in full, firstly to the Jews then to the Gentiles.

Now these Jews that were first and now are last can still take up God on His excellent and marvelous offer by accepting salvation through His only begotten son Jesus Christ before they end up in the grave and be cast into outer darkness in hell.

Will they except the offer now before they die is the question, because like their forefathers who rejected the offer promised by God for deliverance through the messiah, if they die before accepting this offer that has been open for almost 2000 years, then who is to blame but the arrogant Jew who has not the son nor the father and has no covenant with God what so ever as a SEAL for their deliverance.

Time is ticking and life diminishes before the jews very eyes.

According to Matthew versus above God sent the Roman Empire against the apostate Levitical authority in 70AD, do you honestly believe that God has dealings and a separate covenant to His beloved Son with the jews after the judgement He delivered upon them in 70AD?

What some pro Zionist Christians need is a reality check, but that would be too much to ask for since their belief programming is deeper than first thought. It may be too late for them!

Quote from: Soldier of the Cross on Fri Jan 11, 2013 - 04:21:25
Scripture clearly declares that God's promise to ancient Israel was fulfilled completely in the seed of promise Jesus Christ when He said "It is finished".

When Our Lord said "It is Finished," you are taking that the WRONG WAY.

It was that everything was set in place for the New Covenant to take effect.

So you are telling me that the physical boundaries of the nation of Israel at that time fulfilled the Joshua 1 extents?

4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory.

The Euphrates runs thru the middle of Iraq.

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Jan 11, 2013 - 05:54:11

Quote from: Soldier of the Cross on Fri Jan 11, 2013 - 04:21:25
Scripture clearly declares that God's promise to ancient Israel was fulfilled completely in the seed of promise Jesus Christ when He said "It is finished".

When Our Lord said "It is Finished," you are taking that the WRONG WAY.

It was that everything was set in place for the New Covenant to take effect.

So you are telling me that the physical boundaries of the nation of Israel at that time fulfilled the Joshua 1 extents?

4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory.

The Euphrates runs thru the middle of Iraq.

Did God keep his promises? Or is Israel still waiting .....

Josh. 23:14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

1 Kings 8:55 And he stood, and blessed all the congregation of Israel with a loud voice, saying,
56 Blessed be the Lord, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Note that - the earthly promises WERE perfectly kept. If you disagree, you are arguing with Scripture.

Christ was & is the fulfilment of the old covenant promises, again perfectly kept, with the establishment of the new covenant in his blood.

Spot on Conenanter!

Ask these future dispensationalists and pro israel nationalists, if God declares that He Has fully and faithfully delivered onto Israel ALL His promises, will they finally agree with God

Let us read Isaiah 42 and put any doubt to rest that God Has declared His Old Promises signed, sealed and delivered to the Old Covenant people and declares that NOW He has made NEW ones.

Isaiah 42:1-9

The Servant of the Lord

1 "Here is my servant (JESUS CHRIST), whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him

and he will bring justice to the nations. 2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. 3 A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; 4 he will not falter or be discouraged

till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." 5 This is what God the Lord says—he who created the heavens and stretched them

out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

6 "I, the Lord, have called you (JESUS CHRIST) in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the

people (JEWS FIRST) and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

8 "I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. 9 See, the former things have taken place,

and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you."


Just to recap what God has declared we look at these two versus in finer detail and what their implications mean to both the Jews and the Gentiles:

6 "I, the Lord, have called you (JESUS CHRIST) in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the

people (JEWS FIRST) and a light for the Gentiles,

God declares that He will make JESUS CHRIST to be a COVENANT for the PEOPLE (JEWS FIRST) and also a light for the GENTILES.
Is there anything that God Has left out that you can not comprehend?

God is saying JESUS CHRIST is the COVENANT for BOTH JEWS and GENTILES.

Can you say Amen to that!

Replacement theology to what God has openly and clearly declared, is in fact the future dispensationalist, christian zionist and pro israel TWO HOUSE, TWO COVENANT, TWO BRIDE, TWO OLIVE TREE theology.

On one hand God declares ONE COVENANT (IN JESUS CHRIST), ONE OLIVE TREE (JESUS CHRIST THE LIVING VINE), ONE TRUE BRIDE (bought by the blood of Christ who has ONLY ONE BRIDE), ONE HOUSE (God's house is not a divided house).'

DaveW you make a scathing false accussation against me by falciously stating:


Replacement theology trash. Anything to take away a physical fulfillment of a promise to physical Israel. Somehow spiritualize it to the church.

WRONG!!!!

All promises to physical Israel will be physically fulfilled to physical Israel.  (with or without the church)  Any other understanding makes God a liar.

I have a question for you DaveW do you not see that future dispensationalist, christian zionism and pro israel theology is in fact the REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY that tries to replace what God has openly declared?

If you really love Jesus Christ and His truth you will truly see your errors in light of what Covenanter and I have shared with you.

If you have doubt let us finally consider the second verse in Isaiah where God declares the following:


9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you."

THE FORMER THINGS HAVE ALREADY TAKEN PLACE!!!
NOW!!! NEW THINGS I DECLARE!!!

According to your false accussations against me I forgive you as a brother in Christ and in love I go painstakingly to explain to you that the only unfaithful and liars are those who try and undermine the Word of God to their own destruction by making out falsely that God has not delivered in full his promises to the people (jews) of the Old Covenant.

You see Isaiah 42:9 declares God sees the former things through to their fruitian and completion before making a NEW DECLARATION. God does not leave jobs or promises half finished or completed and anyone that makes such statement contrary to God's Word is in fact found to be a liar themselves because as Saint Paul once stated in:


Romans 3:4 (NIV)
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."