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Perhaps it would be more fun, than all this argument, to simply post an exhaustive list of all known 38,000 Protestant denominations.

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 09:25:56
Perhaps it would be more fun, than all this argument, to simply post an exhaustive list of all known 38,000 Protestant denominations.

Yes   Go right ahead Catholica   

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 09:25:56
Perhaps it would be more fun, than all this argument, to simply post an exhaustive list of all known 38,000 Protestant denominations.

With a brief doctrinal statement from each???

Sounds about as useful as (to co-opt a phrase):

"38,000 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one ..."


It would do us the same amount of good as those 27 did for Officer Opie.

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 05:47:51

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 17:08:26

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 14:47:50

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 09:39:10
Yes, we need to repent, but that isn't for salvation again! We need to repent as we go to maintain intimate fellowship with God!

And if we don't repent and maintain intimate fellowship with God, do we still go to heaven?

Those who sin and do not repent (some people are unaware that what they are doing is sin) will have a limited fellowship with God, yet their reward is still heaven.

Would you care to justify that from scripture?

Thanks

Those who put their trust in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life. It doesn't say that all who are completely wise and never sin or who are completely perfect, knowing all things will be saved, does it?

John 3:16
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9-10
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone link=topic=71942.msg1054804090#msg1054804090

QuoteIf we commit a sin that is deadly (1Jn 5:16-17) and do not repent, do we still go to heaven?

Christians are promised heaven! There are people who are false and continue to embrace evil and to commit willful and vile sins that lead to damnation. These people are false converts. We are to leave them to God.

That's the copout of OSAS isn't it?

There isn't any cop out.

QuoteIf you do seriously sin after being saved then you were never really saved in the first place!

False. Tell me, what in your mind is a serious sin? To God all sin is serious.

QuoteThat means we can never know if we are saved until we are dead because we can never know if we will commit a deadly sin in the future.

Well, according to Catholics, they never know for sure if they are saved. But that is false. We are given a promise and assurance that Heaven is our home the moment we receive that wonderful free gift of salvation in Christ! We are sealed in Him, and we are His dwelling place, never to leave us or forsake us, as He promises!

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

QuoteThere is no scriptural justification for such a belief.

The word is all about that. You need to produce scripture to support your beliefs that our salvation is not sure in Christ.

QuoteYou need to bear in mind Ez 18:24
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.

Ezekiel was referring to Old Covenant righteousness. That is not the righteousness of God we have in Christ! Our sins are forgotten!

Hebrews 8:10-12
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

Hebrews 10:16-17
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 06:13:42

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 16:56:14

Paul was saying he doesn't want to be considered a counterfeit, but remains steadfast in his faith. there is something to be said for perseverance. No, he was not talking about losing salvation. Paul never considered that he could lose his salvation, nor did he teach that!

Really? Have you never read Galatians?

Paul is writing to Christians who getting them selves circumcised and says (among other strictures):
but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again? ......I am afraid on your account that perhaps I have laboured for you in vain. (Gal 4:9,11)
Why would Paul be afraid that he had laboured in vain if their salvation was assured?
Why would he ask if they wanted to be slaves to them all over again?

Paul is concerned that these sons of God are turning away from God and back to the works of Judaism and will lose their inheritance.

Yes, as their teacher, he was giving them an earful to warn them that what they were doing was wrong, and spiritually dangerous. Christians are not to fall back into being slaves to sin again.

QuoteHe also says that now he must be again in labour until Christ be formed in you! (Gal 4;19). They are formed in Christ no longer.

Nonsense.

QuoteHe continues:
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

People do backslide, but God doesn't give up on those He knows are His. He knows our hearts and He knows those who are truly His and those who are not sincerely His and have never been convinced about Christ. As a leader, Paul doesn't know what God knows either, and neither do you or I, which is why we must warn those who call themselves Christians to clean up their lives if they are displaying sinful attitudes and behaviours. We don't want people to miss out on God's best in this life, nor do we want to see our brethren miss out on rewards that God desires to bestow on them in the Kingdom.

QuoteAt the end of the letter he says:

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

Which means that when we live for self and not for God and His Kingdom, we will suffer loss in this life. It doesn't say we will lose our eternal home, as children of the King.

QuoteHave you nevcer read Phillipians chapter 3?

In verses 10&11  Paul wants to have righteousness based on faith not on following the law and the sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Why does Paul want to share in the sufferings of Christ if salvation is assured?
Why does he say that he may attain resurrection from the dead if that is assured?

Philippians 3:9-11
and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith. 10 I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, 11 so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!

Paul wants to share in the sufferings of Christ because he is deeply devoted and in love with Jesus, and has a bold faith, praise God! We all by that same faith will attain that same resurrection, hallelujah!

QuotePaul reinforces that he has no guarantee by continuing (verse 12) It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it. Again may posses it.

He continues: Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession(verse 13).

He is NOT talking about salvation! He was talking about perfection in Christ, which we will never achieve until we see Him face to face!

QuoteAnd in verse 14 he says: I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus. What is to pursue if he already has assurance of salvation?

We pursue the reward of meeting our Saviour face to face and to receive a "Well done thou good and faithful servant"!

QuotePaul was not OSAS and he didn't teach OSAS.

He was all about eternal security as I am also. You misinterpret scripture, and make salvation all about works and forget about faith.

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 09:25:56
Perhaps it would be more fun, than all this argument, to simply post an exhaustive list of all known 38,000 Protestant denominations.

Is Arianism one of these 38,000 denominations?

Quote from: FireSword on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 15:09:43

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 09:25:56
Perhaps it would be more fun, than all this argument, to simply post an exhaustive list of all known 38,000 Protestant denominations.

Is Arianism one of these 38,000 denominations?

Arianism is a heresy, not a denomination.  But there are some denominations which embrace Arianism.  For example, Jehovah's Witnesses embrace the central tenet of Arianism, which stated that Jesus was a created entity subordinate to God.

Also according to Wikipedia, another denomination also hold a similar idea, some denomination called "Church of God (7th day) - Salem Conference".

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 15:33:17

Quote from: FireSword on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 15:09:43

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 09:25:56
Perhaps it would be more fun, than all this argument, to simply post an exhaustive list of all known 38,000 Protestant denominations.

Is Arianism one of these 38,000 denominations?

Arianism is a heresy, not a denomination.  But there are some denominations which embrace Arianism.  For example, Jehovah's Witnesses embrace the central tenet of Arianism, which stated that Jesus was a created entity subordinate to God.

Also according to Wikipedia, another denomination also hold a similar idea, some denomination called "Church of God (7th day) - Salem Conference".

The Rcc greatly feared this doctrine, even as Islam. Perhaps because it is true. Jesus said my Father is greater than I. I explained on another thread about Jesus being the Son. Is this regarded as Arianism?

Quote from: FireSword on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 15:54:13

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 15:33:17

Quote from: FireSword on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 15:09:43

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 09:25:56
Perhaps it would be more fun, than all this argument, to simply post an exhaustive list of all known 38,000 Protestant denominations.

Is Arianism one of these 38,000 denominations?

Arianism is a heresy, not a denomination.  But there are some denominations which embrace Arianism.  For example, Jehovah's Witnesses embrace the central tenet of Arianism, which stated that Jesus was a created entity subordinate to God.

Also according to Wikipedia, another denomination also hold a similar idea, some denomination called "Church of God (7th day) - Salem Conference".

The Rcc greatly feared this doctrine, even as Islam. Perhaps because it is true. Jesus said my Father is greater than I. I explained on another thread about Jesus being the Son. Is this regarded as Arianism?

If you believe that Jesus was a created being subordinate to God the Father, then you share Arian belief. 

A Son is subordinate to His Father, but yet equal in many respects. Isn't Arianism the belief that the Son was created, not begotten, so therefore is a older brother to Adam?

 

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 11:45:02

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 05:47:51

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 17:08:26

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 14:47:50

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 09:39:10
Yes, we need to repent, but that isn't for salvation again! We need to repent as we go to maintain intimate fellowship with God!

And if we don't repent and maintain intimate fellowship with God, do we still go to heaven?

Those who sin and do not repent (some people are unaware that what they are doing is sin) will have a limited fellowship with God, yet their reward is still heaven.

Would you care to justify that from scripture?

Thanks

Those who put their trust in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life. It doesn't say that all who are completely wise and never sin or who are completely perfect, knowing all things will be saved, does it?

John 3:16
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9-10
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

Those quotes say nothing about having a limited fellowship with God but still being heaven.

How can we have a limited fellowship with God in heaven?

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 11:45:02

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone link=topic=71942.msg1054804090#msg1054804090

QuoteIf we commit a sin that is deadly (1Jn 5:16-17) and do not repent, do we still go to heaven?

Christians are promised heaven! There are people who are false and continue to embrace evil and to commit willful and vile sins that lead to damnation. These people are false converts. We are to leave them to God.

That's the copout of OSAS isn't it?

There isn't any cop out.

QuoteIf you do seriously sin after being saved then you were never really saved in the first place!

False. Tell me, what in your mind is a serious sin? To God all sin is serious.

Some sins are more serious than others.
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. (1Jn 5:16-17).

Claiming that if someone commits a deadly sin they were never saved in the first place is a copout.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 11:45:02

QuoteThat means we can never know if we are saved until we are dead because we can never know if we will commit a deadly sin in the future.

Well, according to Catholics, they never know for sure if they are saved. But that is false. We are given a promise and assurance that Heaven is our home the moment we receive that wonderful free gift of salvation in Christ! We are sealed in Him, and we are His dwelling place, never to leave us or forsake us, as He promises!

That is false. John tells us there are sins that are deadly.

Paul tells us Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 11:45:02

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

We can forsake God.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 11:45:02

QuoteThere is no scriptural justification for such a belief.

The word is all about that. You need to produce scripture to support your beliefs that our salvation is not sure in Christ.

No, you made the claim, you justify it.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 11:45:02

QuoteYou need to bear in mind Ez 18:24
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.

Ezekiel was referring to Old Covenant righteousness. That is not the righteousness of God we have in Christ! Our sins are forgotten!


Hebrews 8:10-12
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

Hebrews 10:16-17
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When we turn back to God in repentance out sins are forgiven and forgotten. If we do not repent and turn back to God then Ez 18:24 tells us what will happen.



Jesus gave us the example of the Prodigal son who walked out on his Father. His Father was waiting for him to return. When he did he was welcomed back If he had not repented and turned back he would have died estranged and cut off from his Father.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 06:13:42

Quote from: Lively Stone on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 16:56:14

Paul was saying he doesn't want to be considered a counterfeit, but remains steadfast in his faith. there is something to be said for perseverance. No, he was not talking about losing salvation. Paul never considered that he could lose his salvation, nor did he teach that!

Really? Have you never read Galatians?

Paul is writing to Christians who getting them selves circumcised and says (among other strictures):
but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again? ......I am afraid on your account that perhaps I have laboured for you in vain. (Gal 4:9,11)
Why would Paul be afraid that he had laboured in vain if their salvation was assured?
Why would he ask if they wanted to be slaves to them all over again?

Paul is concerned that these sons of God are turning away from God and back to the works of Judaism and will lose their inheritance.

Yes, as their teacher, he was giving them an earful to warn them that what they were doing was wrong, and spiritually dangerous. Christians are not to fall back into being slaves to sin again.

He was telling them that if they did fall back into Judaism they would lose their inheritance.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15

QuoteHe also says that now he must be again in labour until Christ be formed in you! (Gal 4;19). They are formed in Christ no longer.

Nonsense.

It's not nonensense.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15

QuoteHe continues:
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

People do backslide, but God doesn't give up on those He knows are His. He knows our hearts and He knows those who are truly His and those who are not sincerely His and have never been convinced about Christ. As a leader, Paul doesn't know what God knows either, and neither do you or I, which is why we must warn those who call themselves Christians to clean up their lives if they are displaying sinful attitudes and behaviours. We don't want people to miss out on God's best in this life, nor do we want to see our brethren miss out on rewards that God desires to bestow on them in the Kingdom.

Yes people do backslide. And if they do they will lose their inheritance unless they repent.

Paul tells them "those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". He is very clear about that.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15

QuoteAt the end of the letter he says:

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

Which means that when we live for self and not for God and His Kingdom, we will suffer loss in this life. It doesn't say we will lose our eternal home, as children of the King.

Read what it says:
"the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh"
If we sow in the flesh we will not go to heaven

"for in due time we shall reap our harvest"
Not in this life. We reap the harvest by going to heaven. "if we do not give up"

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15

QuoteHave you never read Phillipians chapter 3?

In verses 10&11  Paul wants to have righteousness based on faith not on following the law and the sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Why does Paul want to share in the sufferings of Christ if salvation is assured?
Why does he say that he may attain resurrection from the dead if that is assured?

Philippians 3:9-11
and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith. 10 I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, 11 so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead!

Paul wants to share in the sufferings of Christ because he is deeply devoted and in love with Jesus, and has a bold faith, praise God! We all by that same faith will attain that same resurrection, hallelujah!

QuotePaul reinforces that he has no guarantee by continuing (verse 12) It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it. Again may posses it.

He continues: Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession(verse 13).

He is NOT talking about salvation! He was talking about perfection in Christ, which we will never achieve until we see Him face to face!

Final salvation – entry into heaven –requires perfection.
"but nothing unclean will enter it" (Rev 12:27)

"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5:48)

"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15

QuoteAnd in verse 14 he says: I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus. What is to pursue if he already has assurance of salvation?

We pursue the reward of meeting our Saviour face to face and to receive a "Well done thou good and faithful servant"!

The goal is heaven. That is what Paul is pursuing.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15

QuotePaul was not OSAS and he didn't teach OSAS.

He was all about eternal security as I am also.

Paul said NOTHING about eternal security

He was constantly warning people that they could lose what they had.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Wed Feb 20, 2013 - 12:07:15
You misinterpret scripture, and make salvation all about works and forget about faith.

That is a gross lie. I've NEVER said salvation is all about works and I have NEVER forgotten faith

I think that Grace Centered should have 38000 denominational subforums, and 38000 associated denominational safe houses.

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Feb 21, 2013 - 13:29:45
I think that Grace Centered should have 38000 denominational subforums, and 38000 associated denominational safe houses.

More than, that. You need that many just to understand Catholicsm. 

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Feb 21, 2013 - 13:29:45
I think that Grace Centered should have 38000 denominational subforums, and 38000 associated denominational safe houses.

And by the time they got them all set up there would be 49000 groups.

And don't forget all commitees and subcommitees for each group!

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 21, 2013 - 06:09:40

Read what it says:
"the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh"
If we sow in the flesh we will not go to heaven

"for in due time we shall reap our harvest"
Not in this life. We reap the harvest by going to heaven. "if we do not give up"

Those who have experienced Jesus Christ and have known and walked with Him will never lose out on heaven.

QuotePaul reinforces that he has no guarantee by continuing (verse 12) It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it. Again may posses it.

He continues: Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession(verse 13).

All Christians have a guarantee! Paul teaches it. (Your religion denies it.)

2 Corinthians 1:22
and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.

2 Corinthians 5:5
God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:14
The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

QuoteFinal salvation – entry into heaven –requires perfection.

When we placed our faith In Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit moved into our spirits, our spirits were made perfect and holy. They remain so. We will have no trouble entering heaven. The blood, the blood, the blood---has covered us and cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness!

QuotePaul said NOTHING about eternal security

He was constantly warning people that they could lose what they had.

Paul taught us all about grace and how we are saved by God's grace. His grace is able to save us and cleanse us and keep us until the day we see Him face to face.

If we are lazy and disobedient followers, then we will lose out on close fellowship and a rewarding life, not to mention eternal rewards---but not our place in the family of God. He will never let us go!

Philippians 1:6
And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 21, 2013 - 06:09:40

Read what it says:
"the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh"
If we sow in the flesh we will not go to heaven

"for in due time we shall reap our harvest"
Not in this life. We reap the harvest by going to heaven. "if we do not give up"

Those who have experienced Jesus Christ and have known and walked with Him will never lose out on heaven.

That's not what scripture says.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

QuotePaul reinforces that he has no guarantee by continuing (verse 12) It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it. Again may posses it.

He continues: Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession(verse 13).

All Christians have a guarantee! Paul teaches it. (Your religion denies it.)

Scripture does not say there is no guarantee. Just about every book in the NT denies OSAS

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
2 Corinthians 1:22
and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.

There is no guarantee stated there.

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
2 Corinthians 5:5
God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

There is no guarantee stated there.

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Ephesians 1:14
The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

There is no guarantee stated there.

First installments are not guarantees that we get the rest.

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Ephesians 4:30
And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

There is no guarante stated there.

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

QuoteFinal salvation – entry into heaven –requires perfection.

When we placed our faith In Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit moved into our spirits, our spirits were made perfect and holy. They remain so. We will have no trouble entering heaven. The blood, the blood, the blood---has covered us and cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness!

There are no guarantees.

Paul states in Phil 3:12 that he is not perfect yet.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

QuotePaul said NOTHING about eternal security

He was constantly warning people that they could lose what they had.

Paul taught us all about grace and how we are saved by God's grace. His grace is able to save us and cleanse us and keep us until the day we see Him face to face.

If we are lazy and disobedient followers, then we will lose out on close fellowship and a rewarding life, not to mention eternal rewards---but not our place in the family of God. He will never let us go!

We can walk out on God.

We can commit sins that are deadly.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Philippians 1:6
And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you.
[/r]

"..that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. (Phil 3:10-16)

Paul does not consider he has yet what he hopes for. He presses on.

Paul does not consider he is perfect yet.

Quote from: winsome on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 09:53:03

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 21, 2013 - 06:09:40

Read what it says:
"the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh"
If we sow in the flesh we will not go to heaven

"for in due time we shall reap our harvest"
Not in this life. We reap the harvest by going to heaven. "if we do not give up"

Those who have experienced Jesus Christ and have known and walked with Him will never lose out on heaven.

That's not what scripture says.

It does, but you miss out on what grace is all about.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

QuotePaul reinforces that he has no guarantee by continuing (verse 12) It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it. Again may posses it.

He continues: Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession(verse 13).

All Christians have a guarantee! Paul teaches it. (Your religion denies it.)

Scripture does not say there is no guarantee. Just about every book in the NT denies OSAS

That is a lie. We have our guarantee in Holy Spirit who dwells in us, and never leaves.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
2 Corinthians 1:22
and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.

There is no guarantee stated there.

Read it again. Pray first.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
2 Corinthians 5:5
God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

There is no guarantee stated there.

That is just a bold-faced denial of the truth of the word of God.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Ephesians 1:14
The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

There is no guarantee stated there.

First installments are not guarantees that we get the rest.

God will see what he begins in us to completion. You can take that to the bank. You are free to deny what God says, but you will not enjoy the kind of amazing life He wants to give you.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Ephesians 4:30
And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

There is no guarante stated there.

Open your spiritual eyes. The guarantee is staring you in the face.

Quote from: winsomeFinal salvation – entry into heaven –requires perfection.

To the born again person, his spirit is perfect and holy. In Christ, we are already deemed perfected. The perfection you are thinking about is not what God is teaching us. The word 'perfect' means 'complete', and when we are called home, we will be immediately completed.

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively StoneWhen we placed our faith In Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit moved into our spirits, our spirits were made perfect and holy. They remain so. We will have no trouble entering heaven. The blood, the blood, the blood---has covered us and cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness!

There are no guarantees.

Paul states in Phil 3:12 that he is not perfect yet.

We have a great guarantee by God! It is in Christ I place my hope, and it doesn't waver because I believe the word of God that He will keep me from falling.

Jude 1:24
Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault.
   

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Paul said NOTHING about eternal security

He was constantly warning people that they could lose what they had.

Sure, we can lose out on fellowship with God---which is extremely painful. We can also lose certain rewards, but we will never lose our place in the Family of God!

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively StonePaul taught us all about grace and how we are saved by God's grace. His grace is able to save us and cleanse us and keep us until the day we see Him face to face.

If we are lazy and disobedient followers, then we will lose out on close fellowship and a rewarding life, not to mention eternal rewards---but not our place in the family of God. He will never let us go!

We can walk out on God.

We can commit sins that are deadly.

Yes, a person can renounce his faith, but God doesn't forget His prodigals. Prodigals are miserable, forsaking God! God doesn't drop His promises, however! He says He is faithful even when we are unfaithful!

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny who he is.

All sin is deadly, but the believer repents, as Holy Spirit is dependable to convict him, and has God's marvelous forgiveness, and lives under the constant flowing of the cleansing blood, continually restoring us to righteousness.

1 John 1:8-9
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Philippians 1:6
And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you.

"..that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. (Phil 3:10-16)

Paul does not consider he has yet what he hopes for. He presses on.

Paul does not consider he is perfect yet.

Paul in His maturity in Christ says that he is not perfected in the natural---and none of us are, either---but in the spiritual, as a mature believer, he was---in the eyes of God, and so are we. We are to live our lives continually pressing on, living by faith, seeking after the things of God.

Lively Stone, once a person is justified (saved) through Baptism, then they must continue to abide in Christ, or they can lose that salvation (John 15:6).  How do you abide in Christ?  Through faith and works (John 6:54, 56; John 15:10; 1 John 2:5–6; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:16; 2 John 9).  In other words, God gives us a free gift – the gift of eternal life.  We do not earn that gift, it is freely given.  Yet, we have to respond to that gift.  We can choose to not open that gift; to not apply it to our lives; to reject it – at any point after we have been saved.  That's why Paul warns the Gentiles about the possibility of being cut off from the olive tree (Christ) in Romans 11:17–24.Also, this is why Paul tells the Galatians that if they accept circumcision, and the law that goes with it, they will be severed from Christ (Gal 5:4) – another verse to which you and some others on this forum refuse t

Quote from: neophyte on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 13:05:00
Lively Stone, once a person is justified (saved) through Baptism, then they must continue to abide in Christ, or they can lose that salvation (John 15:6).  How do you abide in Christ?  Through faith and works (John 6:54, 56; John 15:10; 1 John 2:5–6; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:16; 2 John 9).  In other words, God gives us a free gift – the gift of eternal life.  We do not earn that gift, it is freely given.  Yet, we have to respond to that gift.  We can choose to not open that gift; to not apply it to our lives; to reject it – at any point after we have been saved.  That's why Paul warns the Gentiles about the possibility of being cut off from the olive tree (Christ) in Romans 11:17–24.Also, this is why Paul tells the Galatians that if they accept circumcision, and the law that goes with it, they will be severed from Christ (Gal 5:4) – another verse to which you and some others on this forum refuse t

We indeed need to continue and abide in Christ or risk being disciplined. We don't lose salvation, but we do lose fellowship with God, and fruitfulness, and we do lose out on certain eternal rewards that He desires to give us in His plans for each of us.

Those who are withered and taken to be burned are those who never became a part of the vine. The parable of the sower teaches us about such people, which is why it is so important for each of us to fellowship regularly with other believers and to be solidly into God's word and heeding God-placed teachers and leaders in the churches He takes us to.

John 15:1-8
"I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. 3 You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.

5 "Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. 7 But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! 8 When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.

 

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote from: winsome on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 09:53:03

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 21, 2013 - 06:09:40

Read what it says:
"the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh"
If we sow in the flesh we will not go to heaven

"for in due time we shall reap our harvest"
Not in this life. We reap the harvest by going to heaven. "if we do not give up"

Those who have experienced Jesus Christ and have known and walked with Him will never lose out on heaven.

That's not what scripture says.

It does, but you miss out on what grace is all about.

No, scripture does not say that. Try reading it. Here it is again because you seem to be avoiding answering it:

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And here is another one for you try and pretend does not exist:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.  Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40

QuotePaul reinforces that he has no guarantee by continuing (verse 12) It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it. Again may posses it.

He continues: Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession(verse 13).

All Christians have a guarantee! Paul teaches it. (Your religion denies it.)

Scripture does not say there is no guarantee. Just about every book in the NT denies OSAS

That is a lie. We have our guarantee in Holy Spirit who dwells in us, and never leaves.

It is not a lie
Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And here is another one for you try and pretend does not exist:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
2 Corinthians 1:22
and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.

There is no guarantee stated there.

Read it again. Pray first.

Read these. Pray about them first. And then answer them


Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And here is another one for you try and pretend does not exist:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.  Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
2 Corinthians 5:5
God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

There is no guarantee stated there.

That is just a bold-faced denial of the truth of the word of God.

No it isn't
Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And here is another one for you try and pretend does not exist:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.  Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Ephesians 1:14
The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

There is no guarantee stated there.

First installments are not guarantees that we get the rest.

God will see what he begins in us to completion. You can take that to the bank. You are free to deny what God says, but you will not enjoy the kind of amazing life He wants to give you.

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And here is another one for you try and pretend does not exist:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Ephesians 4:30
And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

There is no guarante stated there.

Open your spiritual eyes. The guarantee is staring you in the face.

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And here is another one for you try and pretend does not exist:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.  Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote from: winsomeFinal salvation – entry into heaven –requires perfection.

To the born again person, his spirit is perfect and holy. In Christ, we are already deemed perfected. The perfection you are thinking about is not what God is teaching us. The word 'perfect' means 'complete', and when we are called home, we will be immediately completed.

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively StoneWhen we placed our faith In Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit moved into our spirits, our spirits were made perfect and holy. They remain so. We will have no trouble entering heaven. The blood, the blood, the blood---has covered us and cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness!

There are no guarantees.

Paul states in Phil 3:12 that he is not perfect yet.

We have a great guarantee by God! It is in Christ I place my hope, and it doesn't waver because I believe the word of God that He will keep me from falling.

Jude 1:24
Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault.

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)

And here is another one for you try and pretend does not exist:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.  Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Paul said NOTHING about eternal security

He was constantly warning people that they could lose what they had.

Sure, we can lose out on fellowship with God---which is extremely painful. We can also lose certain rewards, but we will never lose our place in the Family of God!

We can lose ALL our reward
Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively StonePaul taught us all about grace and how we are saved by God's grace. His grace is able to save us and cleanse us and keep us until the day we see Him face to face.

If we are lazy and disobedient followers, then we will lose out on close fellowship and a rewarding life, not to mention eternal rewards---but not our place in the family of God. He will never let us go!

We can walk out on God.

We can commit sins that are deadly.

Yes, a person can renounce his faith, but God doesn't forget His prodigals. Prodigals are miserable, forsaking God! God doesn't drop His promises, however! He says He is faithful even when we are unfaithful!

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny who he is.

All sin is deadly, but the believer repents, as Holy Spirit is dependable to convict him, and has God's marvelous forgiveness, and lives under the constant flowing of the cleansing blood, continually restoring us to righteousness.

1 John 1:8-9
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

God doesn't forget us.

God keeps on loving us.

But we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

If we do not repent and turn back we will be lost.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sat Feb 23, 2013 - 10:55:26

Quote from: winsome

Quote from: Lively Stone on Fri Feb 22, 2013 - 23:33:40
Philippians 1:6
And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you.
[/r]

"..that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. (Phil 3:10-16)

Paul does not consider he has yet what he hopes for. He presses on.

Paul does not consider he is perfect yet.

Paul in His maturity in Christ says that he is not perfected in the natural---and none of us are, either---but in the spiritual, as a mature believer, he was---in the eyes of God, and so are we. We are to live our lives continually pressing on, living by faith, seeking after the things of God.

Paul says does not say he is not perfect in the natural.

Paul says "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect"

Read what Paul  says not what you would like him to have said

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

Sure he did, and the point of the parable is that God is waiting eagerly for those who do return.

But the OSAS people claim it is impossible to walk out on God.

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

God sees to it that His own prodigals return.

Lively Stone, so now your above God by not acknowledging God's'free will'  to mankind. Some people refuse God and walk with Him no more. As in John 6 .Those who repent/ sorry for their sin they are accepted back. Only then.

Quote from: neophyte on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 13:22:54
Lively Stone, so now your above God by not acknowledging God's'free will'  to mankind. Some people refuse God and walk with Him no more. As in John 6 .Those who repent/ sorry for their sin they are accepted back. Only then.

Don't be silly.

As the Lord is the Good Shepherd, He knows just how to nudge His wayward sheep back into the fold.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 11:01:12

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

God sees to it that His own prodigals return.

You are welcome to your opinion which appears to be based on nothing but wishful thinking.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 13:51:22

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 11:01:12

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

God sees to it that His own prodigals return.

You are welcome to your opinion which appears to be based on nothing but wishful thinking.

My opinions are all based on God's word. Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son? Those who belong to the Father, He brings back. His promise is to never leave us or forsake us, and to always complete the work that He starts in us.

Those you may know who renounce their faith, God isn't finished with, yet.

You may choose to believe that God throws His hands up in despair as if he is powerless to keep those who have committed their lives to Him, yet in trouble decide to be at variance with Him. I prefer to take God at His word, that He has a long arm that can keep us and gather us back into the fold, should we stray. We are still His sheep, nonetheless, and we are called by His name, even when we give His name a bad connotation by our waywardness. He is faithful even when we aren't.

Can you turn your back on a child who denies you? My child has done just that very thing! Do I turn away from her? NO! I forgive her, my dear flesh and blood, and I let her know that my door is always open to her if and when she needs me...and it is, and always will be.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 15:29:28

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 13:51:22

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 11:01:12

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

God sees to it that His own prodigals return.

You are welcome to your opinion which appears to be based on nothing but wishful thinking.

My opinions are all based on God's word. Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son? Those who belong to the Father, He brings back. His promise is to never leave us or forsake us, and to always complete the work that He starts in us.

Those you may know who renounce their faith, God isn't finished with, yet.

You may choose to believe that God throws His hands up in despair as if he is powerless to keep those who have committed their lives to Him, yet in trouble decide to be at variance with Him. I prefer to take God at His word, that He has a long arm that can keep us and gather us back into the fold, should we stray. We are still His sheep, nonetheless, and we are called by His name, even when we give His name a bad connotation by our waywardness. He is faithful even when we aren't.

Can you turn your back on a child who denies you? My child has done just that very thing! Do I turn away from her? NO! I forgive her, my dear flesh and blood, and I let her know that my door is always open to her if and when she needs me...and it is, and always will be.

Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son?

God loves us and wants for us to come back to him. But the son had to "come to his senses" and return to the father.

Yes, God is faithful when we are not but he does not force us to repent. He gives us every opportunity and desires us to return to him if we are unfaithful to him.

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Read that carefully

Whoever remains in me

If we do not remain in Christ we will be thrown into the fire!

if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us (2 Tim 2:12)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons ...... For some have already strayed after Satan. (1Tim4:1 & 5:15)

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 25, 2013 - 05:00:56

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 15:29:28

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 13:51:22

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 11:01:12

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

God sees to it that His own prodigals return.

You are welcome to your opinion which appears to be based on nothing but wishful thinking.

My opinions are all based on God's word. Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son? Those who belong to the Father, He brings back. His promise is to never leave us or forsake us, and to always complete the work that He starts in us.

Those you may know who renounce their faith, God isn't finished with, yet.

You may choose to believe that God throws His hands up in despair as if he is powerless to keep those who have committed their lives to Him, yet in trouble decide to be at variance with Him. I prefer to take God at His word, that He has a long arm that can keep us and gather us back into the fold, should we stray. We are still His sheep, nonetheless, and we are called by His name, even when we give His name a bad connotation by our waywardness. He is faithful even when we aren't.

Can you turn your back on a child who denies you? My child has done just that very thing! Do I turn away from her? NO! I forgive her, my dear flesh and blood, and I let her know that my door is always open to her if and when she needs me...and it is, and always will be.

Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son?

God loves us and wants for us to come back to him. But the son had to "come to his senses" and return to the father.

Yes, God is faithful when we are not but he does not force us to repent. He gives us every opportunity and desires us to return to him if we are unfaithful to him.

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Read that carefully

Whoever remains in me

If we do not remain in Christ we will be thrown into the fire!

if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us (2 Tim 2:12)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons ...... For some have already strayed after Satan. (1Tim4:1 & 5:15)

When a true believer walks away from God, he will suffer big time. That is what is promised. He is never no longer God's child. His love is powerful and His patience is never ending. Those who are His are marked as His and they will always be His. These will suffer loss at the Bema Seat of Christ, but they will not suffer hellfire...that is, if they have truly received Jesus Christ, whose hearts God has knowledge, and we do not.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Feb 25, 2013 - 10:33:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 25, 2013 - 05:00:56

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 15:29:28

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 13:51:22

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 11:01:12

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

God sees to it that His own prodigals return.

You are welcome to your opinion which appears to be based on nothing but wishful thinking.

My opinions are all based on God's word. Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son? Those who belong to the Father, He brings back. His promise is to never leave us or forsake us, and to always complete the work that He starts in us.

Those you may know who renounce their faith, God isn't finished with, yet.

You may choose to believe that God throws His hands up in despair as if he is powerless to keep those who have committed their lives to Him, yet in trouble decide to be at variance with Him. I prefer to take God at His word, that He has a long arm that can keep us and gather us back into the fold, should we stray. We are still His sheep, nonetheless, and we are called by His name, even when we give His name a bad connotation by our waywardness. He is faithful even when we aren't.

Can you turn your back on a child who denies you? My child has done just that very thing! Do I turn away from her? NO! I forgive her, my dear flesh and blood, and I let her know that my door is always open to her if and when she needs me...and it is, and always will be.

Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son?

God loves us and wants for us to come back to him. But the son had to "come to his senses" and return to the father.

Yes, God is faithful when we are not but he does not force us to repent. He gives us every opportunity and desires us to return to him if we are unfaithful to him.

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Read that carefully

Whoever remains in me

If we do not remain in Christ we will be thrown into the fire!

if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us (2 Tim 2:12)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons ...... For some have already strayed after Satan. (1Tim4:1 & 5:15)

When a true believer walks away from God, he will suffer big time. That is what is promised. He is never no longer God's child. His love is powerful and His patience is never ending. Those who are His are marked as His and they will always be His. These will suffer loss at the Bema Seat of Christ, but they will not suffer hellfire...that is, if they have truly received Jesus Christ, whose hearts God has knowledge, and we do not.

So saith LS with not a scrap of scripture to back up her opinions, whilst stubbornly ignoring all the scriptures that are presented to her.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 25, 2013 - 12:00:22

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Feb 25, 2013 - 10:33:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 25, 2013 - 05:00:56

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 15:29:28

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 13:51:22

Quote from: Lively Stone on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 11:01:12

Quote from: FireSword on Sun Feb 24, 2013 - 09:08:21

QuoteBut we can renounce God and walk out on him as the prodigal son did.

But the son eventually returned and God accepted Him. As the psalm says 'His mercy endureth forever'.

God sees to it that His own prodigals return.

You are welcome to your opinion which appears to be based on nothing but wishful thinking.

My opinions are all based on God's word. Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son? Those who belong to the Father, He brings back. His promise is to never leave us or forsake us, and to always complete the work that He starts in us.

Those you may know who renounce their faith, God isn't finished with, yet.

You may choose to believe that God throws His hands up in despair as if he is powerless to keep those who have committed their lives to Him, yet in trouble decide to be at variance with Him. I prefer to take God at His word, that He has a long arm that can keep us and gather us back into the fold, should we stray. We are still His sheep, nonetheless, and we are called by His name, even when we give His name a bad connotation by our waywardness. He is faithful even when we aren't.

Can you turn your back on a child who denies you? My child has done just that very thing! Do I turn away from her? NO! I forgive her, my dear flesh and blood, and I let her know that my door is always open to her if and when she needs me...and it is, and always will be.

Do you not understand Jesus' parable of the prodigal son?

God loves us and wants for us to come back to him. But the son had to "come to his senses" and return to the father.

Yes, God is faithful when we are not but he does not force us to repent. He gives us every opportunity and desires us to return to him if we are unfaithful to him.

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn 15:5-6)

Read that carefully

Whoever remains in me

If we do not remain in Christ we will be thrown into the fire!

if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us (2 Tim 2:12)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons ...... For some have already strayed after Satan. (1Tim4:1 & 5:15)

When a true believer walks away from God, he will suffer big time. That is what is promised. He is never no longer God's child. His love is powerful and His patience is never ending. Those who are His are marked as His and they will always be His. These will suffer loss at the Bema Seat of Christ, but they will not suffer hellfire...that is, if they have truly received Jesus Christ, whose hearts God has knowledge, and we do not.

So saith LS with not a scrap of scripture to back up her opinions, whilst stubbornly ignoring all the scriptures that are presented to her.

All the scriptures? LOL! All I see are two verses repeated over and over again.

There is so much more that teach us about God's grace, and about God's promises that he will never leave us or forsake us, and that He will complete what He starts in our lives, which I have given, also. So, don't try to paint me as a person who doesn't know or present the word of God. I do that in nearly every post I make on this board.

There is no scripture that I ignore in order to continue believing that those who are truly His, despite difficulties in their lives that cause them to make bad choices in their lives by wandering away from God, or by being angry at God and turning their backs on Him---He says HE IS FAITHFUL. Hellfire is not the concern, but hell on earth is--just as the prodigal son experienced, being out of fellowship with his loving father. God can be trusted to bring back the prodigal and to reward him as if he had never left....sooooo biblical!

this may be the only time I disagree with you Stone. I hear what you say. It is used of osas that no one can take us out of his hand. That is true but his hand is not a clinched fist. We are free to make our own choices good or bad. True we will always be his child but one can b e hoplessly lost again.  a chick who runs out from His mothers wing is in great danger and can be snatched away by the hawk. I heard a preacher sa of the Prodigal that he did not turn back to home because he was sorry but because he was hungry. It was the Father who did not mind his motive. It was enough that he returned even when he still smelled of pigs. Still the boy may have become successfull and was not hungry. What then? Yes it was good for him to return and was recieved unconditionally but it could have easily gone the other way.

There is the parable of the servant who got bored with serving the Lord and went back to his worldly ways

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.     Mt 24:45-51

There will be no nashing of teeth in heaven.  It also says that our name can be blotted out of the book of life