Christian Forums

As a practicing Latter-day Saint, or Mormon as we are colloquially called, there is perhaps no challenge to my faith that irks me more than the accusation that it is a cult. The term "cult," is used so often nowadays that word itself has lost any semblance of meaning.

But of course, if one is going to rely on such a word to define a system of belief, there must be some meaning behind the word, or else the label becomes utterly useless. It leaves me wondering how those who believe Mormonism is a cult define this word, under what definition would Mormonism fit. It's my experience that when those attempt to put forth a definition, they inadvertently condemn nearly every single religion in existence, including mainstream Christianity.  Take, for example, the definition put forth by Dictionary.com:

noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

Now I would hardly argue that Mormonism would be rightly classified as a cult using such a definition. But I think that nearly every adherent of any religion would have to admit that they, too fit the dictionary definition of cult. Most religions do have a person or thing that they venerate, or a set of ideals that a group of followers each subscribe to. One can conclude, then, that the above definition can't possibly be what Mormon detractors are referring to, since all of Christianity fits this definition.

The World English Dictionary has a similar definition of cult, adding one more, which is,

.    a quasi-religious organization using devious psychological techniques to gain and control adherents

This definition would be one applied to dangerous cults, defined by the field of sociology. And though many disagree with Mormon teachings, it would be pretty hard to argue that it is a religious organization that uses 'devious psychological techniques to gain and control adherents.'

There have been some (like Pastor Robert Jeffress during the 2012 election cycle) who attempted to label Mormonism as a "Theological Cult," and gave as his reasoning that Mormonism came out 2000 years after Christianity, who has their own leader (Joseph Smith) and their own book of scripture (the Book of Mormon). Setting aside the completely arbitrary nature of this definition, it fails on another level, in that one could then label Christianity itself as a "theological cult" of Judaism, i.e. a religion that came out thousands of years after Judaism, with their own leader (Jesus Christs) and their own Scriptures (the New Testament).

All of this leaves me wondering, in all honesty, what does "Cult" mean? And how does Mormonism fit the moniker of cult? Is there some definition that would encompass only Mormonism while leaving unscathed any other mainstream religion? I'm not really interested in getting into a lengthy debate on the subject, but I ask simply out of curiosity, to see what sort of rationale is used.

To me a cult is a secretive sect, with secretive following. But the sacred is also secretive and worthy to be guarded. Marriage is honourable and the bed undefiled.

What Is a Religious Cult?

WHAT IS A CULT?- Introduction
With such an overwhelming number of religious groups around these days, it is necessary to understand the difference between a legitimate religious group and a cult. What exactly is a cult?

WHAT IS A CULT- Definitions
There are two ways to define a cult. The first way to describe a cult is popular in the secular media. From this perspective, a cult is a religious or semi-religious sect whose members are controlled almost entirely by a single individual or by an organization.

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

The second way to define a cult is popular in evangelical Christian circles. From this perspective, a cult is any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds.

WHAT IS A CULT- Psuedo-Christian Cults
These groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.

Most of these cults claim to be Christian, and even consider the Bible to be authoritative. But they manipulate the Scriptures to fit their own beliefs. Although they may claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may even use the same terminology orthodox Christians use, their definitions are vastly different.

WHAT IS A CULT- The Dangers of False Teachings
These groups do not lead to the Christ of the Bible, but to another Jesus and another gospel (2 Cor. 11:1-4; Gal. 1:8,9). We must therefore reject these false teachings, and "earnestly contend for the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). And, of course, remember the Bible also goes on to admonish us that we must do this with gentleness, and with respect. Remember, you must present the message, but you need to recognize that it is only the Holy Spirit that changes the heart.

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/what-is-a-religious-cult/

QuoteThese groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.


Most of these cults claim to be Christian, and even consider the Bible to be authoritative. But they manipulate the Scriptures to fit their own beliefs. Although they may claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may even use the same terminology orthodox Christians use, their definitions are vastly different.

Ah, I see. The only way the term 'cult' applies is if you make up a definition that fits religions you don't like. Who came up with that completely arbitrary definition. And further, who gets to say how far someone can be wrong without being labelled a cult?

As Mormons don't distort these teachings, (and are in fact much more in line with mainstream thinking than many realize) we are not a cult.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Mar 04, 2013 - 15:49:28

QuoteThese groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.


Most of these cults claim to be Christian, and even consider the Bible to be authoritative. But they manipulate the Scriptures to fit their own beliefs. Although they may claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may even use the same terminology orthodox Christians use, their definitions are vastly different.

Ah, I see. The only way the term 'cult' applies is if you make up a definition that fits religions you don't like.

As Mormons don't distort these teachings, we are not a cult.

As mentioned so many times before, the Mormons redefine and distort who Jesus is and who the Father is. Therefore the religion is based on quicksand and will not hold up in the Day of Judgment.

Mormonism is a false religion.  They believe it is possible for them to become gods.

QuoteMormons are a false religion.  They believe it is possible for them to become gods.

The Bible teaches this too, and it was the orthodox Christian position during the first two centuries of Christianity.

QuoteAs mentioned so many times before, the Mormons redefine and distort who Jesus is and who the Father is. Therefore the religion is based on quicksand and will not hold up in the Day of Judgment.

No, we don't redefine or distort anything. I've shown numerous times biblical evidence for my position, and you choose to ignore it. All that you have shown is that you don't actually believe in salvation through grace and that you think you can judge the merits of my salvation. It is you who redefined Jesus and God, using as a benchmark the words of a non-biblical creed that came out centuries after Christ. You claim that the Trinity is found in the Bible, but have as yet been unable to produce a single verse that fully supports this doctrine. Nor have you shown me any biblical evidence that God would condemn me for these beliefs. Do you think that is the case? Do you really think that God will condemn to hell those who accepted Christ as their savior and took upon them his name, but didn't fully understand his essence?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Mar 04, 2013 - 17:50:56

QuoteAs mentioned so many times before, the Mormons redefine and distort who Jesus is and who the Father is. Therefore the religion is based on quicksand and will not hold up in the Day of Judgment.

No, we don't redefine or distort anything. I've shown numerous times biblical evidence for my position, and you choose to ignore it. All that you have shown is that you don't actually believe in salvation through grace and that you think you can judge the merits of my salvation. It is you who redefined Jesus and God, using as a benchmark the words of a non-biblical creed that came out centuries after Christ. You claim that the Trinity is found in the Bible, but have as yet been unable to produce a single verse that fully supports this doctrine. Nor have you shown me any biblical evidence that God would condemn me for these beliefs. Do you think that is the case? Do you really think that God will condemn to hell those who accepted Christ as their savior and took upon them his name, but didn't fully understand his essence?

It sounds like you agree that mormons don't fully understand his essence.   Mormonism is based on a false religion formed by a pervert, who wanted to have a bunch of sex.  He was so perverted that he envisioned sex with multiple women after his death.

QuoteIt sounds like you agree that mormons don't fully understand his essence.   Mormonism is based on a false religion formed by a pervert, who wanted to have a bunch of sex.  He was so perverted that he envisioned sex with multiple women after his death.

Mormons understand his essence just fine. I'm making a hypothetical point, however, that even if Mormons are wrong, how can salvation be withheld if one accepts (as Lively Stone does) that salvation is a free gift contingent only upon accepting Christ as our eternal savior. Mormons comply with that statement, so even if we are wrong on an issue like the Trinity, it is not detrimental to our salvation.

Joseph Smith was a pervert? Really. Any proof of this or are you intentionally trying to slander his name? Was Abraham a pervert, or David? Solomon? They all practiced polygamy and were all called as prophets of God. Polygamy in and of itself does not rob one of his prophetic calling. There is amble biblical support for this.

Since you asked and I was once in a cult many many years ago, I will amusingly reply with this prophetic verse with credit to The Kinks.

Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world
Except for Lola, la la la la Lola

You can pull out of a cult. And when you do, just bring Jesus along and throw the rest of what you learned into the trash.


Peace.


John

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Mar 04, 2013 - 18:19:06

QuoteIt sounds like you agree that mormons don't fully understand his essence.   Mormonism is based on a false religion formed by a pervert, who wanted to have a bunch of sex.  He was so perverted that he envisioned sex with multiple women after his death.

Mormons understand his essence just fine. I'm making a hypothetical point, however, that even if Mormons are wrong, how can salvation be withheld if one accepts (as Lively Stone does) that salvation is a free gift contingent only upon accepting Christ as our eternal savior. Mormons comply with that statement, so even if we are wrong on an issue like the Trinity, it is not detrimental to our salvation.

Joseph Smith was a pervert? Really. Any proof of this or are you intentionally trying to slander his name? Was Abraham a pervert, or David? Solomon? They all practiced polygamy and were all called as prophets of God. Polygamy in and of itself does not rob one of his prophetic calling. There is amble biblical support for this.

Neither David, Solomon or Abraham believed they would have multiple wives after they died.  They also did not believe they could become gods.  They did not believe that the god we earth dwellers worship also has a God.   They don't believe that satan and jesus are or were siblings.

If you want to be saved you must believe that there is one God which is made up of father, son and holy spirit.  Then you must accept Jesus as your savior.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Mar 04, 2013 - 17:48:39

QuoteMormons are a false religion.  They believe it is possible for them to become gods.

The Bible teaches this too, and it was the orthodox Christian position during the first two centuries of Christianity.

Maybe YOUR 'bible' teaches this but God's holy word does not.

QuoteNeither David, Solomon or Abraham believed they would have multiple wives after they died.  They also did not believe they could become gods.  They did not believe that the god we earth dwellers worship also has a God.   They don't believe that satan and jesus are or were siblings.

Ah, setting aside for the moment the fact that Joseph Smith never taught anything about having sex in heaven, I am to understand then that polygamy's okay in your eyes, just as long as you don't think it exists in heaven.

Again, becoming Gods is biblical. What do you think it means to be a son of God...an heir of God and joint-heir with Christ? What is an heir? Someone who inherits something. It stands to reason that an heir of God would inherit what he has. Couple this with the fact that we have been given the promise that we will be made ruler over many things if we are faithful over a few...it sounds a lot like godhood.

And for the record, Mormons don't accept that God has a god as an officially binding doctrine.

QuoteIf you want to be saved you must believe that there is one God which is made up of father, son and holy spirit.  Then you must accept Jesus as your savior.

And Mormons do this....so that means we in fact ARE Christians who will be saved, right?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Mar 04, 2013 - 17:50:56

QuoteAs mentioned so many times before, the Mormons redefine and distort who Jesus is and who the Father is. Therefore the religion is based on quicksand and will not hold up in the Day of Judgment.

No, we don't redefine or distort anything. I've shown numerous times biblical evidence for my position, and you choose to ignore it.

I don't ignore truth.

QuoteAll that you have shown is that you don't actually believe in salvation through grace and that you think you can judge the merits of my salvation.

Salvation is God's great gift to us through His WONDERFUL grace, so there is no mistake in that. Only God can judge whether you are saved or not, but it would behoove you to know who the Father and Son really are.

QuoteIt is you who redefined Jesus and God, using as a benchmark the words of a non-biblical creed that came out centuries after Christ. You claim that the Trinity is found in the Bible, but have as yet been unable to produce a single verse that fully supports this doctrine. Nor have you shown me any biblical evidence that God would condemn me for these beliefs. Do you think that is the case? Do you really think that God will condemn to hell those who accepted Christ as their savior and took upon them his name, but didn't fully understand his essence?

How does one who holds the word of God as our authority redefine something that has been known since the beginning? It is Mormonism that is the NEW KID ON THE BLOCK, here. This is not a debate about the trinity.

As for your question, if you have the truth offered to you as freely as you have had here, yet still reject it in favour of error, then yes, God will hold people responsible for being stiff-necked. As for condemnation---that is His call, for only He knows those who are His sheep. His kids should be open to correction and to learning more and more of His truth and receive it with gladness of heart. Those who are fettered by false religions have a way about them that completely opposes the truth of the word, standing toe-to-toe against it---unbending. That is sufficient for us to know what is false.

QuoteI don't ignore truth.

I would disagree...but that's to be expected, different faith traditions and all...

QuoteSalvation is God's great gift to us through His WONDERFUL grace, so there is no mistake in that. Only God can judge whether you are saved or not, but it would behoove you to know who the Father and Son really are.

Salvation is a great gift, completely agree. But during our discourses it seems as though God's grace has limitations, that accepting Christ as Savior is not sufficient, that some disagreements on doctrine are grounds for exclusion from the Christian community and possibly from salvation. If you believe in grace, you believe in conditional grace, whereby certain requirements must be met before this gift is offered to someone.

QuoteHow does one who holds the word of God as our authority redefine something that has been known since the beginning? It is Mormonism that is the NEW KID ON THE BLOCK, here. This is not a debate about the trinity.

On the contrary, the Trinity doctrine is NOT what was originally held by the early church. I challenge you to find anything in the Bible that defines the Trinity as understood by modern Christians i.e. three personages in one Being, co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial. This is not in there, and is in fact, the result of an extra biblical creed hammered out during a heated council in an attempt to understand the nature of God.  Do some research into the first two centuries of Christianity; you'll find that the LDS view of God was the prevailing idea at the time, particularly the idea of subordinationism, that the Son and Holy Ghost were subordinate to the Father. .Irenaeus and Tertullian, for example, held to this belief, and in fact believed that at some point God the Father brought 'put forth' a Son that was separate and distinct from him. Justin Martyr thought likewise and Eusebias was called a blatant subordinationist. Yet all of these individuals were considered orthodox in their days. By the fourth century, what was the orthodox position became heretical as the doctrine of the Trinity was produced.

So no, the Trinity idea was not original, nor is it defined as such in the Holy Bible. As far as I can tell, the only church that holds to a biblical understanding of God is the LDS church, namely, three distinct personages who are One God, not in substance, but in power, glory and purpose.

Quote
As for your question, if you have the truth offered to you as freely as you have had here, yet still reject it in favour of error, then yes, God will hold people responsible for being stiff-necked. As for condemnation---that is His call, for only He knows those who are His sheep. His kids should be open to correction and to learning more and more of His truth and receive it with gladness of heart. Those who are fettered by false religions have a way about them that completely opposes the truth of the word, standing toe-to-toe against it---unbending. That is sufficient for us to know what is false.

I know truth when  I see it, and as honest or well-meaning as you may be, I simply cannot accept the ideas that you put forth, or the condemnation you level at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not only do I not see the Biblical or historical evidence, I cannot and will not deny my own personal witness of these truths to which I hold. To turn my back on what God has revealed to me would be a most grievous sin on my part.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 10:09:19

QuoteI don't ignore truth.

I would disagree...but that's to be expected, different faith traditions and all...

Following Jesus Christ and His word is not a tradition.

Quote

QuoteSalvation is God's great gift to us through His WONDERFUL grace, so there is no mistake in that. Only God can judge whether you are saved or not, but it would behoove you to know who the Father and Son really are.

Salvation is a great gift, completely agree. But during our discourses it seems as though God's grace has limitations, that accepting Christ as Savior is not sufficient, that some disagreements on doctrine are grounds for exclusion from the Christian community and possibly from salvation. If you believe in grace, you believe in conditional grace, whereby certain requirements must be met before this gift is offered to someone.

There is no limit to God's grace. It is Jesus that is your limitation---you do not know the same Jesus of the bible. Mormons have morphed Him into some other being you worship, bearing the same name. Who Jesus is is not a doctrine. Unless you know the same Jesus I know, we aren't related.

Quote

QuoteHow does one who holds the word of God as our authority redefine something that has been known since the beginning? It is Mormonism that is the NEW KID ON THE BLOCK, here. This is not a debate about the trinity.

On the contrary, the Trinity doctrine is NOT what was originally held by the early church. I challenge you to find anything in the Bible that defines the Trinity as understood by modern Christians i.e. three personages in one Being, co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial. This is not in there, and is in fact, the result of an extra biblical creed hammered out during a heated council in an attempt to understand the nature of God.  Do some research into the first two centuries of Christianity; you'll find that the LDS view of God was the prevailing idea at the time, particularly the idea of subordinationism, that the Son and Holy Ghost were subordinate to the Father. .Irenaeus and Tertullian, for example, held to this belief, and in fact believed that at some point God the Father brought 'put forth' a Son that was separate and distinct from him. Justin Martyr thought likewise and Eusebias was called a blatant subordinationist. Yet all of these individuals were considered orthodox in their days. By the fourth century, what was the orthodox position became heretical as the doctrine of the Trinity was produced.

So no, the Trinity idea was not original, nor is it defined as such in the Holy Bible. As far as I can tell, the only church that holds to a biblical understanding of God is the LDS church, namely, three distinct personages who are One God, not in substance, but in power, glory and purpose.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit are One. They were together in one place at Jesus' baptism.

God as three Persons is our authority:

Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote

Quote
As for your question, if you have the truth offered to you as freely as you have had here, yet still reject it in favour of error, then yes, God will hold people responsible for being stiff-necked. As for condemnation---that is His call, for only He knows those who are His sheep. His kids should be open to correction and to learning more and more of His truth and receive it with gladness of heart. Those who are fettered by false religions have a way about them that completely opposes the truth of the word, standing toe-to-toe against it---unbending. That is sufficient for us to know what is false.

I know truth when  I see it, and as honest or well-meaning as you may be, I simply cannot accept the ideas that you put forth, or the condemnation you level at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not only do I not see the Biblical or historical evidence, I cannot and will not deny my own personal witness of these truths to which I hold. To turn my back on what God has revealed to me would be a most grievous sin on my part.

Remaining in darkness is a decision you make consciously, having been given the truth. There is such a thing as false revelation.

2 Corinthians 11:14
But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Mar 04, 2013 - 18:33:59

QuoteNeither David, Solomon or Abraham believed they would have multiple wives after they died.  They also did not believe they could become gods.  They did not believe that the god we earth dwellers worship also has a God.   They don't believe that satan and jesus are or were siblings.

Ah, setting aside for the moment the fact that Joseph Smith never taught anything about having sex in heaven, I am to understand then that polygamy's okay in your eyes, just as long as you don't think it exists in heaven.

Again, becoming Gods is biblical. What do you think it means to be a son of God...an heir of God and joint-heir with Christ? What is an heir? Someone who inherits something. It stands to reason that an heir of God would inherit what he has. Couple this with the fact that we have been given the promise that we will be made ruler over many things if we are faithful over a few...it sounds a lot like godhood.

And for the record, Mormons don't accept that God has a god as an officially binding doctrine.

QuoteIf you want to be saved you must believe that there is one God which is made up of father, son and holy spirit.  Then you must accept Jesus as your savior.

And Mormons do this....so that means we in fact ARE Christians who will be saved, right?

Mormons don't believe there is ONE GOD.   You just said it yourself.  [deleted]

Quote
Mormons don't believe there is ONE GOD.   You just said it yourself.  [deleted]

Yes, Mormons do believe there is one God. From the Book of Mormon, Alma 11:44 "Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Notice the bolded part.

Also from the Book of Mormon, 2nd Nephi 31:21 "this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end."

And  "the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God," (Moroni 7:7)

And from another LDS scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants, "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end," (D&C 20:26)

These are all from official LDS scriptures, each one affirming that we do indeed believe there to be One God. We merely understand their oneness differently and reject the extra biblical definition put forth by the Nicene Creed.

So, given that I have shown that Latter-day Saints actually do believe in One God, and given that we do accept Christ as our savior, by your very definition, we are Christian and will be saved. If you say no, then you are changing your parameters and an honest discourse would be impossible.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 12:01:40

Quote
Mormons don't believe there is ONE GOD.   You just said it yourself.  [deleted]

Yes, Mormons do believe there is one God. From the Book of Mormon, Alma 11:44 "Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Notice the bolded part.

Also from the Book of Mormon, 2nd Nephi 31:21 "this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end."

And  "the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God," (Moroni 7:7)

And from another LDS scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants, "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end," (D&C 20:26)

These are all from official LDS scriptures, each one affirming that we do indeed believe there to be One God. We merely understand their oneness differently and reject the extra biblical definition put forth by the Nicene Creed.

So, given that I have shown that Latter-day Saints actually do believe in One God, and given that we do accept Christ as our savior, by your very definition, we are Christian and will be saved. If you say no, then you are changing your parameters and an honest discourse would be impossible.

"...the Godhead. Not one person in three, nor three persons in one; but the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in essence, as the hearts of three men who are united in all things."

-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, pg95-96, 11/29/1857


"He is our Father--the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being."

-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, pg331, 10/8/1859

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.  He helped to make and organize this world.  He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, about whom holy men have written and spoken--He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do."

-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 1, p50, 4/9/1852

Quote"...the Godhead. Not one person in three, nor three persons in one; but the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in essence, as the hearts of three men who are united in all things."

-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, pg95-96, 11/29/1857

A couple things. First, the quote by Brigham Young doesn't even seem to contradict the Trinity. Even Trinitarians admit that there are three separate personages.

And two, the Journal of Discourses is not an official source of LDS doctrine, but is instead a collection of sermons given by many early church leaders. What I have quoted comes straight from out scriptures, and as such, represent our official position.

So in light of that, it is evident that Mormons are still eligible for salvation. Did you not say that one must believe in One God and accept Christ as your savior? If those two things are the only requirements, I believe I have adequately shown that Mormons qualify. If you disagree, on what grounds?

Quote"He is our Father--the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being."

-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, pg331, 10/8/1859

All Christians believe that God is the father or our spirits and all accept that God once dwelt in mortal flesh. Do you not consider Jesus God, and was he not once a Man?

Quote"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.  He helped to make and organize this world.  He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, about whom holy men have written and spoken--He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do."

The Adam God doctrine is not the official position of the church, and was in fact disavowed by the church. If you read the Doctrine and Covenants, you will find that we believe Adam was Michael the Archangel, not God. Brigham Young was either wrong or his sermon was not recorded properly.

Again, the Journal of Discourses is not accepted as official doctrine.

Quote
[deleted]

I am going to hell? With all due respect, I believe God is the only one who can determine my salvation. It seems to me like you are just irritated to find out that Mormons aren't quite as different from the rest of Christianity as you originally thought. It's almost as if you're looking for an excuse to preclude me from Christianity...and from salvation.

Mormonism is anything but ungodly. Of this I am certain.

Quote[deleted]

.

Explain to me how we are members of the church of Satan. What criteria are you now using to discredit the church? Earlier, you gave your personal criteria needed for salvation, namely, believing in One God and accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. I have shown that unequivocally, Mormons do both of these. By your own standards, we are saved.

Was your original statement incorrect? Is there additional requirements now? If so, what are they?

Quote[deleted]   I could spend hours debating you and you will never once admit that Mormonism is ungodly.  It would be a waste of your time and mine.

[deleted]

In other words, you don't know what to say.

I'm not asking for a long, drawn out debate; I'm merely asking you to explain your position, which you seem unwilling to. I'd really like to know how Mormons cannot be saved if we fit into your predetermined criteria for salvation. If you cannot explain this, then I can suppose my original assumption was correct; you are concerned only with excluding Mormons for the sake of exclusion, rather than learning what they actually believe.

I'd also be careful with your condemnation of others to hell. That is a role reserved solely for God. You are in absolutely no position to judge the merits of someone else's salvation.

QuoteI find it amusing that you assume to know my COMPLETE criteria for salvation, based on a few things I have said.  You made the conclusion that I have completely stated my position.

Hey, I'm merely going off what you stated. If there are additional requirements you think someone needs to meet, then I'd like to hear them. All I know is that you stated two criteria for salvation, and I pointed out that Mormons adhere to both, so there is no problem there. I then asked what else one must do and you remained silent. Since the discussion was on salvation requirements and that's all you'd give, I came to this conclusion.

Quote
I am a child of God and I absolutely am in the position to JUDGE the merits of a person's salvation.  Who else other than the children of God on this earth are able to lead people to the ONE path of salvation?   

Leading people to the path of salvation is one thing, but then determining that another follower of Christ is going to hell is something else. You do not know the contents of my heart, nor do you the nature of my relationship with Christ. So no, you are NOT eligible to determine whether or not I am going to hell.

QuoteIf you were honest and if you were seeking the truth, you would openly turn away from Mormonism upon hearing the truth of God.

I try to be as honest as possible, and have presented myself openly and without deceit here. I am no longer seeking the truth because I have already found it. I know with 100 percent certainty that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's Kingdom on earth. I'm not going to listen to some anonymous poster on a message board over what God has made known to me.

QuoteToday is the acceptable day of salvation.  Do you right now deny Mormonisn?  [deleted]

Do I deny Mormonism? Absolutely not. That is paramount to denying God himself, to call him a liar. It would be an ultimate act of betrayal against God. And for this stance, I will not go to hell.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 15:31:32

QuoteI find it amusing that you assume to know my COMPLETE criteria for salvation, based on a few things I have said.  You made the conclusion that I have completely stated my position.

Hey, I'm merely going off what you stated. If there are additional requirements you think someone needs to meet, then I'd like to hear them. All I know is that you stated two criteria for salvation, and I pointed out that Mormons adhere to both, so there is no problem there. I then asked what else one must do and you remained silent. Since the discussion was on salvation requirements and that's all you'd give, I came to this conclusion.

Quote
I am a child of God and I absolutely am in the position to JUDGE the merits of a person's salvation.  Who else other than the children of God on this earth are able to lead people to the ONE path of salvation?   

Leading people to the path of salvation is one thing, but then determining that another follower of Christ is going to hell is something else. You do not know the contents of my heart, nor do you the nature of my relationship with Christ. So no, you are NOT eligible to determine whether or not I am going to hell.

QuoteIf you were honest and if you were seeking the truth, you would openly turn away from Mormonism upon hearing the truth of God.

I try to be as honest as possible, and have presented myself openly and without deceit here. I am no longer seeking the truth because I have already found it. I know with 100 percent certainty that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's Kingdom on earth. I'm not going to listen to some anonymous poster on a message board over what God has made known to me.

QuoteToday is the acceptable day of salvation.  Do you right now deny Mormonisn?  [deleted]

Do I deny Mormonism? Absolutely not. That is paramount to denying God himself, to call him a liar. It would be an ultimate act of betrayal against God. And for this stance, I will not go to hell.

If the statements you have made are a true reflection of your heart then I do know that your heart is ungodly. 

Gun slinger you said the following:
All Christians believe that God is the father or our spirits and all accept that God once dwelt in mortal flesh. Do you not consider Jesus God, and was he not once a Man?

Are you saying that God the father once dwelt in mortal flesh?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 13:26:34

"He is our Father--the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being."

-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, pg331, 10/8/1859

All Christians believe that God is the father or our spirits and all accept that God once dwelt in mortal flesh. Do you not consider Jesus God, and was he not once a Man?

The Father is the Father. He is spirit. He was never flesh. Jesus, the Word of God, became flesh. God became flesh and dwelt among men. The Father is always the Father.

Quote"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.  He helped to make and organize this world.  He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, about whom holy men have written and spoken--He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do."

The Adam God doctrine is not the official position of the church, and was in fact disavowed by the church. If you read the Doctrine and Covenants, you will find that we believe Adam was Michael the Archangel, not God. Brigham Young was either wrong or his sermon was not recorded properly.

Now Adam, created as mankind, is now another created being called Michael the archangel? Where in scripture is that taught??

The truth is, God is God, Adam is man and Michael is a high-ranking angelic being.

Brigham Young is not to be believed.

What about the secret handshake?


Isn't that the key to mormon salvation?

QuoteIf the statements you have made are a true reflection of your heart then I do know that your heart is ungodly. 

Okay...whatever makes you feel better. The good things is I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else. I know where I stand with God and what He thinks of me. That's good enough for me.

Quote
Gun slinger you said the following:
All Christians believe that God is the father or our spirits and all accept that God once dwelt in mortal flesh. Do you not consider Jesus God, and was he not once a Man?

Are you saying that God the father once dwelt in mortal flesh?

Never said that. I was speaking on the quote that God once was a man, and making the observation that since all Christians believe Jesus is God, and Jesus was once a man, that there is no real conflict...Jesus is God and Jesus was a Man, therefore, from a certain point of view, God was once a man. This is a near universal Christian ideal, I've been told.

QuoteThe Father is the Father. He is spirit. He was never flesh. Jesus, the Word of God, became flesh. God became flesh and dwelt among men. The Father is always the Father.

The Bible never says that the Father has no physical body so your assuming he does not is just that, an assumption. Jesus is the Word of God and became flesh; I agree, and the Father is always the Father. We see eye to eye on that point.

QuoteNow Adam, created as mankind, is now another created being called Michael the archangel? Where in scripture is that taught??

Doctrine and Covenants 107: 54, "And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel."

Quote
The truth is, God is God, Adam is man and Michael is a high-ranking angelic being.."

I agree with all of these statements.

Quote
Brigham Young is not to be believed.

Brigham Young is one of the greatest spiritual giants to ever walk the earth, and I am eternally grateful that God chose him as His prophet to ensure that the Lord's church could survive.

QuoteWhat about the secret handshake?


Isn't that the key to mormon salvation?

The fact that you would so openly display ordinances Mormons consider to be most sacred shows a complete lack of respect and decorum on  your part. Stooping to mocking the most sacred beliefs of others is utterly despicable.

I will not address the video because I will choose not to watch it, so I cannot even speak to whether or not what is being presented is even accurate.

As for your question, no. Nothing in the temple, not the annointings, not the sealings or the endowment. Are the key to our salvation. Nor is baptism, confirmation or the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. The key to our salvation is the atonement wrought by Jesus Christ on the cross. Without Christ's sacrifice, nothing would matter. These ordinances we perform, both in and out of the temple are symbolic gestures that we have been commanded to partake of, that point us along the way of salvation. Baptism, for example, is symbolic of burying the old and arising as a new person in Christ. And even though we believe baptism to be a necessary ordinance, we don't hold that the water is magical and that the baptism itself saves us. Likewise, what we do in the temple are symbolic, to help us understand the plan of salvation more fully and to bring us closer to Christ. 

We can only warn those in groups like yourself that they are wrong, and that you need to come out of them and repent. The stark errors are evident but I guess that if you have been bought up believing in something its not easy to get out especially if your family are involved. However your very salvation is at stake here.
Just as muslims do when they find Jesus, you need to do as well, even if does mean they/you loose their families and their lives are never the same. They will find a new family in Him, and Jesus makes it clear that He will restore all that we loose for His sake.

QuoteWe can only warn those in groups like yourself that they are wrong, and that you need to come out of them and repent. The stark errors are evident but I guess that if you have been bought up believing in something its not easy to get out especially if your family are involved. However your very salvation is at stake here.
Just as muslims do when they find Jesus, you need to do as well, even if does mean they/you loose their families and their lives are never the same. They will find a new family in Him, and Jesus makes it clear that He will restore all that we loose for His sake.

I can see the truly honest intent you have regarding these issues and especially pertaining to my salvation. I get the sense that you speak genuinely out of a sense of caring for your fellow Man. The trouble I have with the statement you made, though, is that no one can as yet show how my salvation is at stake. Whenever I press someone on the requirement for salvation, I typically get similar answers, generally involving accepting Christ as my savior, or something similar. And I've shown that Mormons typically do fit into these pre-set parameters, so we ought to have our salvation secured. But apparently not, according to other posters here. I get the impression that most feel simply holding doctrines that they don't find biblical disqualifies us from heaven. That begs the question, then, how wrong can someone be to still be saved? And who gets to decide which errors are worse than others? You look at the various Christian sects and you'll see a wide expanse of different doctrines and competing theories, yet you never see a pre-trib rapture believer's salvation called into question, or someone who holds a different view on the necessity of baptism.

You say that the stark errors are evident, but no one has yet shown me this. It has nothing to do with family. My entire family was converts. My Dad was a staunch atheist who not only accepted Christ as his savior thanks to LDS missionaries, but has improved his life monumentally, and my parent's conversion saved their marriage. And that's not all. I don't believe in the church because my parents do. I believe because I studied the doctrines, I looked at what others were teaching and I took my concerns to God in earnest prayer and He has confirmed my faith in my current religion. There was a time when I felt my testimony was on the verge of being extinguished and I was miserable during this period. But God saw fit to intervene and through various spiritual experiences and encounters too sacred to recount here, my faith was renewed and I was assured of my stance. I find it amazing, though, how quickly people assume that Mormons simply jump into the religion either because they have not studied it, or because of external peer pressure. Neither was the case for me. My decision to be a Mormon is rooted in personal revelation from God.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Mar 06, 2013 - 08:33:56

QuoteWhat about the secret handshake?


Isn't that the key to mormon salvation?

The fact that you would so openly display ordinances Mormons consider to be most sacred shows a complete lack of respect and decorum on  your part. Stooping to mocking the most sacred beliefs of others is utterly despicable.

A handshake is a sacred ordinance? Now that is cultish.

Where is that a biblical matter?

QuoteThese ordinances we perform, both in and out of the temple are symbolic gestures that we have been commanded to partake of, that point us along the way of salvation.

Where in scripture is a secret handshake commanded? What does it symbolize?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Mar 06, 2013 - 11:13:40
The trouble I have with the statement you made, though, is that no one can as yet show how my salvation is at stake. Whenever I press someone on the requirement for salvation, I typically get similar answers, generally involving accepting Christ as my savior, or something similar. And I've shown that Mormons typically do fit into these pre-set parameters, so we ought to have our salvation secured. But apparently not, according to other posters here. I get the impression that most feel simply holding doctrines that they don't find biblical disqualifies us from heaven. That begs the question, then, how wrong can someone be to still be saved? And who gets to decide which errors are worse than others? You look at the various Christian sects and you'll see a wide expanse of different doctrines and competing theories, yet you never see a pre-trib rapture believer's salvation called into question, or someone who holds a different view on the necessity of baptism.

Mormons do not grasp who God is and who Jesus is, claiming that God was once human or fleshly, and had a wife, and that Jesus and Lucifer or Satan are brothers. This alone disqualifies a person's faith, for the person doesn't join with the family of God about who the Father and Son really are. The enemy has reached in to delude people based on this very starting point.

QuoteYou say that the stark errors are evident, but no one has yet shown me this.

Yes we have, over and over again.

QuoteIt has nothing to do with family. My entire family was converts. My Dad was a staunch atheist who not only accepted Christ as his savior thanks to LDS missionaries, but has improved his life monumentally,

That's nice that your dad has improved his life, but that is no testament to the power of God. It is Jesus Christ in us who changes our lives.

QuoteMy decision to be a Mormon is rooted in personal revelation from God.

God does not reveal anything concerning Mormonism to people, except for its error and His revelation is that it is not from Him, and to stay away from it.