Christian Forums

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Mar 06, 2013 - 08:09:01

QuoteIf the statements you have made are a true reflection of your heart then I do know that your heart is ungodly. 

Okay...whatever makes you feel better. The good things is I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else. I know where I stand with God and what He thinks of me. That's good enough for me.

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Gun slinger you said the following:
All Christians believe that God is the father or our spirits and all accept that God once dwelt in mortal flesh. Do you not consider Jesus God, and was he not once a Man?

Are you saying that God the father once dwelt in mortal flesh?

Never said that. I was speaking on the quote that God once was a man, and making the observation that since all Christians believe Jesus is God, and Jesus was once a man, that there is no real conflict...Jesus is God and Jesus was a Man, therefore, from a certain point of view, God was once a man. This is a near universal Christian ideal, I've been told.

I see that you are side stepping my question, again.

Let me ask you a new question then.

Was God the father ever a human?

QuoteA handshake is a sacred ordinance? Now that is cultish.

And what definition of cult does this fall under? Would you consider it cultish when Catholics make the sign of the cross, or when Protestant denominations take to washing each other's feet? There's very little difference. You are condemning these symbols only because you are not accustomed to them. From an outsider's perspective, baptism seems like a cultish ritual, so does the laying on of hands or waving your arms around when praying.

QuoteWhere is that a biblical matter?

I never said it was a biblical matter.

Quote
Where in scripture is a secret handshake commanded? What does it symbolize?

First off, I'd hardly call it a secret "handshake," like it's the gateway into a secret club. They are signs and tokens that resonate with us on a deep, spiritual level. I will not discuss the symbolism because of the very sacred nature of temple ordinances. I personally feel that this particular discussion is already stressing the limits of acceptable discussion regarding this issue.

I also never said anything about Scriptures commanding the use of a secret handshake.

QuoteMormons do not grasp who God is and who Jesus is, claiming that God was once human or fleshly, and had a wife, and that Jesus and Lucifer or Satan are brothers. This alone disqualifies a person's faith, for the person doesn't join with the family of God about who the Father and Son really are. The enemy has reached in to delude people based on this very starting point.

You expect me to prove everything I say using the Bible, so I will expect the same from you. Where does the Bible say that believing these things disqualifies my faith? I read only that we are to accept Jesus Christ as our savior and take upon us his name, to live righteously, to love God and to love our fellow Man. Where does the Bible put any disclaimer on salvation based on the criteria you have just listed?

What you fail to grasp is that it is actually you who believes in a God and Jesus not found in the Bible. The LDS position does not contradict the Bible in any way regarding who the Father and Son is. The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God and is our redeemer. We believe this.  The Bible says that the Father and Son are One. We also believe this. The Bible says that the Word was with God, was God and was made flesh. We also believe this.

You also believe this, but since you have decided to accept the Nicean conception of the Holy Trinity, in essence, accepting extra biblical sources to define God, you also believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are also on in substance. And that cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. The Trinity doctrine as currently accepted is nowhere to be found and is the result of extra-biblcal councils.

As I've stated prior, you also believe God was once human. If Jesus = God and if Jesus was once human, then God = Once Human. If you are referring to God the Father, that is not taught as official or authoritative and our scriptures are silent on the matter. The only thing that matters to us is that God is our Eternal Father and we are to worship him with all our strength, heart and mind.

QuoteThat's nice that your dad has improved his life, but that is no testament to the power of God. It is Jesus Christ in us who changes our lives.

I can't convince you that this change was caused by God, but I can bear witness of this fact. Whether or not you accept my testimony is up to you, and it's perfectly within your right to not believe me. But I know why we were converted and I know that God had a hand in it. If you saw the things that transpired to make this happen, you'd have absolutely no doubt as well.

QuoteGod does not reveal anything concerning Mormonism to people, except for its error and His revelation is that it is not from Him, and to stay away from it.

Not true. I know what God has made known to me. Again, you are absolutely free to reject what  I say, and even call me a liar if you wish. But it doesn't change what I personally know to be true.

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I see that you are side stepping my question, again.

Let me ask you a new question then.

Was God the father ever a human?

I didn't mean to sidestep your question. I simply stated that the doctrine "God was once Man," is believed by most Christians if you believe Jesus is God.

As to whether or not God the Father was ever human...though I actually like it from a doctrinal standpoint, I'd say no, I personally don't believe it. I just don't see the evidence. But here's the thing, believing that God the Father was once a man is not a requirement for being a Mormon because it is not actually a canonized doctrine, nor is it taught in any of our official sources. Joseph Smith seemed to allude to this idea in his King Follett discourse, but  it was never presented as a binding revelation and as far as we know may have been his own personal philosophy, based on his own opinions. When it's all said and done, Latter-day Saints don't concern themselves with this issue because it doesn't really matter. We are concerned only with the fact that he is our Heavenly Father who loved us enough to provide a savior to atone for our sins. Whether he has always been God or if he ascended to that position is irrelevant.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Mar 06, 2013 - 16:56:26

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I see that you are side stepping my question, again.

Let me ask you a new question then.

Was God the father ever a human?

I didn't mean to sidestep your question. I simply stated that the doctrine "God was once Man," is believed by most Christians if you believe Jesus is God.

As to whether or not God the Father was ever human...though I actually like it from a doctrinal standpoint, I'd say no, I personally don't believe it. I just don't see the evidence. But here's the thing, believing that God the Father was once a man is not a requirement for being a Mormon because it is not actually a canonized doctrine, nor is it taught in any of our official sources. Joseph Smith seemed to allude to this idea in his King Follett discourse, but  it was never presented as a binding revelation and as far as we know may have been his own personal philosophy, based on his own opinions. When it's all said and done, Latter-day Saints don't concern themselves with this issue because it doesn't really matter. We are concerned only with the fact that he is our Heavenly Father who loved us enough to provide a savior to atone for our sins. Whether he has always been God or if he ascended to that position is irrelevant.

Is God the father of this earth, under another God?   Are there other Gods that are just as powerful or more powerful than the God the father of this earth?

QuoteIs God the father of this earth, under another God?   Are there other Gods that are just as powerful or more powerful than the God the father of this earth?

The only true doctrinal statement here is that God is the Father of this earth.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Mar 06, 2013 - 16:45:15

QuoteA handshake is a sacred ordinance? Now that is cultish.

And what definition of cult does this fall under? Would you consider it cultish when Catholics make the sign of the cross,

Yes.

Quoteor when Protestant denominations take to washing each other's feet?

No, we do this because Jesus did it.

QuoteThere's very little difference. You are condemning these symbols only because you are not accustomed to them.

No, these handshakes are unfruitful works.

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

QuoteFrom an outsider's perspective, baptism seems like a cultish ritual, so does the laying on of hands or waving your arms around when praying.

These things the Mormons do have nothing in common with baptism, the laying on of hands, or in lifting one's arms in worship and praise to the Father. These things are commanded.

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QuoteWhere is that a biblical matter?

I never said it was a biblical matter.

Precisely my point. It is extra-biblical and not sacred, and worthy of setting aside.

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Where in scripture is a secret handshake commanded? What does it symbolize?

First off, I'd hardly call it a secret "handshake," like it's the gateway into a secret club. They are signs and tokens that resonate with us on a deep, spiritual level. I will not discuss the symbolism because of the very sacred nature of temple ordinances. I personally feel that this particular discussion is already stressing the limits of acceptable discussion regarding this issue.

I also never said anything about Scriptures commanding the use of a secret handshake.

If you hold these tokens as such sacred gestures that discussing them is stretching the limits, then that is cultish thinking right there.

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QuoteMormons do not grasp who God is and who Jesus is, claiming that God was once human or fleshly, and had a wife, and that Jesus and Lucifer or Satan are brothers. This alone disqualifies a person's faith, for the person doesn't join with the family of God about who the Father and Son really are. The enemy has reached in to delude people based on this very starting point.

You expect me to prove everything I say using the Bible, so I will expect the same from you. Where does the Bible say that believing these things disqualifies my faith? I read only that we are to accept Jesus Christ as our savior and take upon us his name, to live righteously, to love God and to love our fellow Man. Where does the Bible put any disclaimer on salvation based on the criteria you have just listed?

If your religion doesn't teach you who the Father is and who the Son really is, then you have fallen victim to a false belief, a false religion. It is right that Jesus Christ is our Saviour, but who is Jesus Christ to you? Is He an angelic creature like Satan? Is He Satan's brother? Was God flesh and bone? Did He have a wife? What about this planet Kolob?

Who taught you these beliefs? Certainly not God's holy word, but rather a Johnny-come-lately man-written text that was supposedly dictated by an angel.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.

QuoteWhat you fail to grasp is that it is actually you who believes in a God and Jesus not found in the Bible.

Not true.

QuoteThe LDS position does not contradict the Bible in any way regarding who the Father and Son is. The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God and is our redeemer. We believe this.  The Bible says that the Father and Son are One. We also believe this. The Bible says that the Word was with God, was God and was made flesh. We also believe this.

Just by accepting another so-called revelation given by another spirit, not Holy Spirit, is all the proof anyone needs to recognize that there is something fishy there. I firmly believe that the LDS church does not inform its laity of all the particulars that the upper echelons believe.

QuoteYou also believe this, but since you have decided to accept the Nicean conception of the Holy Trinity, in essence, accepting extra biblical sources to define God, you also believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are also on in substance. And that cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. The Trinity doctrine as currently accepted is nowhere to be found and is the result of extra-biblcal councils.

I need no creed to dictate what Holy Spirit has opened to my spirit about Himself.

QuoteAs I've stated prior, you also believe God was once human.  If Jesus = God and if Jesus was once human, then God = Once Human.

That is absolutely false.

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QuoteThat's nice that your dad has improved his life, but that is no testament to the power of God. It is Jesus Christ in us who changes our lives.

I can't convince you that this change was caused by God, but I can bear witness of this fact. Whether or not you accept my testimony is up to you, and it's perfectly within your right to not believe me. But I know why we were converted and I know that God had a hand in it. If you saw the things that transpired to make this happen, you'd have absolutely no doubt as well.

Your language reflected that the changes were by the man's effort, and did not attest to Holy Spirit. In Christ, behold, all things become new!

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QuoteGod does not reveal anything concerning Mormonism to people, except for its error and His revelation is that it is not from Him, and to stay away from it.

Not true. I know what God has made known to me. Again, you are absolutely free to reject what  I say, and even call me a liar if you wish. But it doesn't change what I personally know to be true.

Yes, only Holy Spirit can reveal the error you embrace. I will be praying that He will do that for you and your family, because He loves you all with a great passion and wants you to know Him as He is, not as He is revealed by a religious sect.

Do you ever read the Bible? I pray that you will develop a strong thirst for truth and will read the Bible for yourself so God will give you a true revelation of Himself there.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Mar 06, 2013 - 18:30:15

QuoteIs God the father of this earth, under another God?   Are there other Gods that are just as powerful or more powerful than the God the father of this earth?

The only true doctrinal statement here is that God is the Father of this earth.

Try answering the questions instead of just making a statement, side stepping the issues again.

Mormons also believe that Jesus was a god, but not God Himself.

Mormons also believe- God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works.

Mormons also believe that Jesus was a person like us even before he was born,

QuoteTry answering the questions instead of just making a statement, side stepping the issues again.

I didn't side step the issue. You put forth several claims and I said the only one which is doctrine is that God is the Father of this earth, meaning the other ones aren't doctrine. Please explain how I sidestepped the question.

QuoteMormons also believe that Jesus was a god, but not God Himself.

I already explained the LDS position on the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the second member of the Godhead, and the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One God. Our position is biblical.

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Mormons also believe- God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works.

Not true.

QuoteMormons also believe that Jesus was a person like us even before he was born,

No we don't. He was greater than we were. That's why he's God and that's why he was foreordained to be the savior.

QuoteYes.

So Catholics are a cult too? Did you make up an arbitrary definition of cult to suit your own ideas again?

QuoteNo, we do this because Jesus did it.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether or not it's in the Bible. An outsider looking in would see feetwashing as cult-like as well.

And I'm not certain on this, but I don't believe Christ ever commanded his disciples to wash each other's feet as part of their worship services.

QuoteNo, these handshakes are unfruitful works.

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

I agree with Ephesians here. I don't agree with your definition of unfruitful works. Simply claiming our ordinances are unfruitful doesn't make it so.

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Precisely my point. It is extra-biblical and not sacred, and worthy of setting aside

The Trinity's also not in the Bible, yet you don't consider that 'not sacred.' Besides, the Bible never states that every sacred act is recorded therein, in fact, it says just the opposite.

QuoteIf you hold these tokens as such sacred gestures that discussing them is stretching the limits, then that is cultish thinking right there.

No it's not, its taking the advice offered by Christ himself. He told his disciples to not put sacred things before dogs, or to cast our pearls before swine, so that they would not openly mock and belittle these sacred things. If you think that refusing to talk about the most sacred part of our worship to a public who neither understand or appreciate their significance is cult like, then you apparently think Christ was advocating cult-like activity.

QuoteIf your religion doesn't teach you who the Father is and who the Son really is, then you have fallen victim to a false belief, a false religion. It is right that Jesus Christ is our Saviour, but who is Jesus Christ to you? Is He an angelic creature like Satan? Is He Satan's brother? Was God flesh and bone? Did He have a wife? What about this planet Kolob?

But our religion DOES teach us who the Father and Son really is, so your criticism is already flawed from the get-go. Jesus Christ is our savior, and our God. He is not an angelic creature like Satan and they are 'spiritual brother,' only in that we consider them both to be sons of God the Father. God is flesh and bone, yes, and we are made in his image. The Bible never says that he's not flesh and bone. Does he have a wife? Probably. How can he be our father if there is not a mother? Father means nothing without a contrasting ideal (mother) on which to base it. This also does not conflict the Bible. What about Kolob? What significance does that have? The fact that you inquired about it like it was some kind of smoking gun illustrates that you don't get the significance of Kolob.

QuoteNot true.

So you believe your version of God and Jesus IS found in the Bible? Alright. Show me. Where in the Bible does it define a triune God that is co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial? That is the definition of the Trinity as understood today. But it is not in the Scriptures, nor did the first century saints believe this.

QuoteJust by accepting another so-called revelation given by another spirit, not Holy Spirit, is all the proof anyone needs to recognize that there is something fishy there. I firmly believe that the LDS church does not inform its laity of all the particulars that the upper echelons believe.

And you can believe this if you want, but it would be incorrect. Our Sunday services are three hours long, our high school students participate in years of seminary instruction. We have extensive manuals available both online and in print that detail the most complex doctrines. And above all else, the Holy Scriptures are available to everyone. Even the Temple, where the most sacred ordinances are performed is open to anyone who has been in the church for a year. These supposed 'secret' teachings regarding the nature of God, Kolob, etc. I learned while still a teenager during Sunday School. Anyone who desires to learn what we really believe have all the means in the world to do so.

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I need no creed to dictate what Holy Spirit has opened to my spirit about Himself.

You most certainly are relying on a creed. Your understanding of the Trinity was born out of an ecumenical council that produced said creed. The Trinity as understood by today's Christians is NOT in the Bible.

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That is absolutely false.

What's false about this? I thought you believed Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, and if Jesus was once a man (a point I'm sure we agree on) then God was once a man.

QuoteYour language reflected that the changes were by the man's effort, and did not attest to Holy Spirit. In Christ, behold, all things become new!

And how does my language reflect that the changes were "by man's efforts?" It an untrue statement anyways, as the many spiritual experiences that led us into the church can attest to, my point remains the same. God led us into the church. I know this and God knows this. You were not there and have no idea what transpired to convert us to the gospel.

QuoteYes, only Holy Spirit can reveal the error you embrace. I will be praying that He will do that for you and your family, because He loves you all with a great passion and wants you to know Him as He is, not as He is revealed by a religious sect.

Strange, because the Holy Spirit has borne witness of the truthfulness of the LDS religion. I appreciate your prayers, really, but they will go unanswered. God will not pull us out of the church He founded.

QuoteDo you ever read the Bible? I pray that you will develop a strong thirst for truth and will read the Bible for yourself so God will give you a true revelation of Himself there.

I read the Bible every night. It's a daily ritual I look forward to always.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Mar 08, 2013 - 15:45:29

QuoteMormons also believe that Jesus was a god, but not God Himself.

I already explained the LDS position on the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the second member of the Godhead, and the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One God. Our position is biblical.

Quote
Mormons also believe- God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works.

Not true.

QuoteMormons also believe that Jesus was a person like us even before he was born,

No we don't. He was greater than we were. That's why he's God and that's why he was foreordained to be the savior.

There you go side stepping again.   You are saying that Jesus was created by God, that Jesus was not always God.

Last Gunslinger- Are there any God's that are equal to or greater than God the father, God the son or God the holy spirit?

Was God the father ever a human?  Did God the father ever have sex? 

QuoteLast Gunslinger- Are there any God's that are equal to or greater than God the father, God the son or God the holy spirit?

Well, we believe that there is no end to God's power or glory, so by definition, it would be impossible to be greater than He. And though we typically acknowledge the existence of multiple 'gods,' with a lower case 'g' there is but One God to us, and speculation about how many other gods there are or if there are any or how powerful they are is just that, speculation.

It's also important to note that Jesus Christ is considered subordinate to God the Father, as the Bible illustrates. I don't know if that's pertinent to your question or not.

QuoteWas God the father ever a human?  Did God the father ever have sex? 

Was God the Father ever Human? Latter-day Saints are divided on that and there is no "official" position. The idea that he may have been human, as I've stated elsewhere, is primarily derived from the King Follett discourses by Joseph Smith--a non-doctrinal sermon that implied Smith's belief that God was once as we are now, a human and he is now an exalted being who sits "enthroned in yonder heaven." Some wholeheartedly believe this, and maintain that it does not conflict with the Bible's claim that God is eternal, as we hold that Jesus Christ was God before becoming Mortal. So too is it possible that God lived a comparable life to Jesus Christ and played a similar role, while still maintaining his position as "God." They might cite John 5:19 where Jesus says to his disciples that he can do nothing of himself, only those things which he saw the Father do, for whatever the Father does, so too does the Son do it.

The other alternative is that the idea of God once being a man is referencing specifically Jesus Christ who is God, but who experienced a mortal life. Still others pass off the sermon as one man's opinion. When all is said and done, we have no revealed scripture regarding God's origin, only one or two sermons by Joseph Smith, given a couple months before he was murdered, teaching doctrines he never had time to elaborate on and which were not given as the revealed word of God. Any discussion about this is purely theological speculation. Interesting, but not terribly important as far as Latter-day Saints are concerned.

As far as God ever having sex, it's doubtful. I've discussed in your other thread the means by which God created our spirits, stating that we have always been, that we've always existed in some form and that God organized "Intelligences," into spirits. This implies heavily that we were not born through sexual relations between God and a Goddess wife.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Mar 08, 2013 - 16:09:31

Quote from: Lively StoneYes.

So Catholics are a cult too? Did you make up an arbitrary definition of cult to suit your own ideas again?

There are many cultish things about their doctrines.

Quote

QuoteNo, we do this because Jesus did it.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether or not it's in the Bible. An outsider looking in would see feetwashing as cult-like as well.

No, they would be shown how it is perfectly fine to do it because IT IS BIBLICAL.

QuoteAnd I'm not certain on this, but I don't believe Christ ever commanded his disciples to wash each other's feet as part of their worship services.

John 13:14
And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet.

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QuoteNo, these handshakes are unfruitful works.

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

I agree with Ephesians here. I don't agree with your definition of unfruitful works. Simply claiming our ordinances are unfruitful doesn't make it so.

Add-ons are generally religious affectations.

QuoteThe Trinity's also not in the Bible, yet you don't consider that 'not sacred.' Besides, the Bible never states that every sacred act is recorded therein, in fact, it says just the opposite.

If they call the Godhead the Royal Family, I would be using that terminology. It matters not the nomenclature. What matters is that we understand who the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are.

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QuoteIf you hold these tokens as such sacred gestures that discussing them is stretching the limits, then that is cultish thinking right there.

No it's not, its taking the advice offered by Christ himself. He told his disciples to not put sacred things before dogs, or to cast our pearls before swine, so that they would not openly mock and belittle these sacred things. If you think that refusing to talk about the most sacred part of our worship to a public who neither understand or appreciate their significance is cult like, then you apparently think Christ was advocating cult-like activity.

What has happened here is that Mormonism has devised new sacred things, which are worthy of being mocked and cast down from their false perch.

Ephesians 6:12
For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

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QuoteIf your religion doesn't teach you who the Father is and who the Son really is, then you have fallen victim to a false belief, a false religion. It is right that Jesus Christ is our Saviour, but who is Jesus Christ to you? Is He an angelic creature like Satan? Is He Satan's brother? Was God flesh and bone? Did He have a wife? What about this planet Kolob?

But our religion DOES teach us who the Father and Son really is, so your criticism is already flawed from the get-go. Jesus Christ is our savior, and our God. He is not an angelic creature like Satan and they are 'spiritual brother,' only in that we consider them both to be sons of God the Father. God is flesh and bone, yes, and we are made in his image. The Bible never says that he's not flesh and bone. Does he have a wife? Probably. How can he be our father if there is not a mother? Father means nothing without a contrasting ideal (mother) on which to base it. This also does not conflict the Bible. What about Kolob? What significance does that have? The fact that you inquired about it like it was some kind of smoking gun illustrates that you don't get the significance of Kolob.

The LDS does not teach its people the truth.

Jesus and Satan are no more like brothers than dogs and cats. God is not flesh and bone! He is Spirit!

John 4:24
God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

Quote

QuoteNot true.

So you believe your version of God and Jesus IS found in the Bible? Alright. Show me. Where in the Bible does it define a triune God that is co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial? That is the definition of the Trinity as understood today. But it is not in the Scriptures, nor did the first century saints believe this.

Yes, the first century Church believed this and passed it down.

We baptize in the authority of the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---as equals.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2:10
And you are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].

Galatians 4:6
To show that you are his children, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who cries out, "Father, my Father."

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QuoteJust by accepting another so-called revelation given by another spirit, not Holy Spirit, is all the proof anyone needs to recognize that there is something fishy there. I firmly believe that the LDS church does not inform its laity of all the particulars that the upper echelons believe.

And you can believe this if you want, but it would be incorrect. Our Sunday services are three hours long, our high school students participate in years of seminary instruction. We have extensive manuals available both online and in print that detail the most complex doctrines. And above all else, the Holy Scriptures are available to everyone. Even the Temple, where the most sacred ordinances are performed is open to anyone who has been in the church for a year. These supposed 'secret' teachings regarding the nature of God, Kolob, etc. I learned while still a teenager during Sunday School. Anyone who desires to learn what we really believe have all the means in the world to do so.

Sounds like brainwashing to me. The doctrines are extra-biblical and not worthy of learning.

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Quote from: Lively StoneI need no creed to dictate what Holy Spirit has opened to my spirit about Himself.

You most certainly are relying on a creed. Your understanding of the Trinity was born out of an ecumenical council that produced said creed. The Trinity as understood by today's Christians is NOT in the Bible.

No I am not. I rely on what Holy Spirit has revealed to me as truth. He uses His word and His people, anointed to teach to make sure His people are steeped in His truth and are enabled to recognize spiritual falsehood and distortion at the drop of a hat. I am ever so thankful to my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ for that, and have never been so thankful of that very thing until I came to this board.

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Quote
That is absolutely false.

What's false about this? I thought you believed Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, and if Jesus was once a man (a point I'm sure we agree on) then God was once a man.

Jesus is God, and He is God in the flesh (not "once a man"), but God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever. Jesus has always been the Son.

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth.

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QuoteYour language reflected that the changes were by the man's effort, and did not attest to Holy Spirit. In Christ, behold, all things become new!

And how does my language reflect that the changes were "by man's efforts?"

Take a second or third look at what you wrote.

QuoteIt an untrue statement anyways, as the many spiritual experiences that led us into the church can attest to, my point remains the same. God led us into the church. I know this and God knows this. You were not there and have no idea what transpired to convert us to the gospel.

God would never lead someone down a wrong road.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Luke 21:8
Jesus: 8 Be careful. It's easy to be deceived. Many people will come claiming to have My authority. They'll shout, "I'm the One!" or "The time is now!" Don't take a step in their direction.

Quote

QuoteYes, only Holy Spirit can reveal the error you embrace. I will be praying that He will do that for you and your family, because He loves you all with a great passion and wants you to know Him as He is, not as He is revealed by a religious sect.

Strange, because the Holy Spirit has borne witness of the truthfulness of the LDS religion. I appreciate your prayers, really, but they will go unanswered. God will not pull us out of the church He founded.

No, He will answer, because you need them. God has not founded the LDS church!

Jude 1:23
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

Quote

QuoteDo you ever read the Bible? I pray that you will develop a strong thirst for truth and will read the Bible for yourself so God will give you a true revelation of Himself there.

I read the Bible every night. It's a daily ritual I look forward to always.

I pray Holy Spirit will cause the scales to fall from your eyes and that He will open your eyes to HIS truth.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Mar 08, 2013 - 19:45:02

QuoteLast Gunslinger- Are there any God's that are equal to or greater than God the father, God the son or God the holy spirit?

Well, we believe that there is no end to God's power or glory, so by definition, it would be impossible to be greater than He. And though we typically acknowledge the existence of multiple 'gods,' with a lower case 'g' there is but One God to us, and speculation about how many other gods there are or if there are any or how powerful they are is just that, speculation.

It's also important to note that Jesus Christ is considered subordinate to God the Father, as the Bible illustrates. I don't know if that's pertinent to your question or not.

QuoteWas God the father ever a human?  Did God the father ever have sex? 

Was God the Father ever Human? Latter-day Saints are divided on that and there is no "official" position. The idea that he may have been human, as I've stated elsewhere, is primarily derived from the King Follett discourses by Joseph Smith--a non-doctrinal sermon that implied Smith's belief that God was once as we are now, a human and he is now an exalted being who sits "enthroned in yonder heaven." Some wholeheartedly believe this, and maintain that it does not conflict with the Bible's claim that God is eternal, as we hold that Jesus Christ was God before becoming Mortal. So too is it possible that God lived a comparable life to Jesus Christ and played a similar role, while still maintaining his position as "God." They might cite John 5:19 where Jesus says to his disciples that he can do nothing of himself, only those things which he saw the Father do, for whatever the Father does, so too does the Son do it.

The other alternative is that the idea of God once being a man is referencing specifically Jesus Christ who is God, but who experienced a mortal life. Still others pass off the sermon as one man's opinion. When all is said and done, we have no revealed scripture regarding God's origin, only one or two sermons by Joseph Smith, given a couple months before he was murdered, teaching doctrines he never had time to elaborate on and which were not given as the revealed word of God. Any discussion about this is purely theological speculation. Interesting, but not terribly important as far as Latter-day Saints are concerned.

As far as God ever having sex, it's doubtful. I've discussed in your other thread the means by which God created our spirits, stating that we have always been, that we've always existed in some form and that God organized "Intelligences," into spirits. This implies heavily that we were not born through sexual relations between God and a Goddess wife.

You said there is only one GOD to us.   Are you saying that there are other people or beings on other planets that there is only one God to them?

QuoteYou said there is only one GOD to us.   Are you saying that there are other people or beings on other planets that there is only one God to them

I don't think I said that. All we know is that there are other gods. We only have one God, however. And we know that our God is God to many worlds "without end." Whether or not these other 'gods,' are gods in the same way or whether the term god simply denotes the presence of a divine being is debatable. We have zero scriptures detailing other gods.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Mar 08, 2013 - 22:12:23

QuoteYou said there is only one GOD to us.   Are you saying that there are other people or beings on other planets that there is only one God to them

I don't think I said that. All we know is that there are other gods. We only have one God, however. And we know that our God is God to many worlds "without end." Whether or not these other 'gods,' are gods in the same way or whether the term god simply denotes the presence of a divine being is debatable. We have zero scriptures detailing other gods.

Mormons believe that God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Mar 08, 2013 - 22:12:23

QuoteYou said there is only one GOD to us.   Are you saying that there are other people or beings on other planets that there is only one God to them

I don't think I said that. All we know is that there are other gods. We only have one God, however. And we know that our God is God to many worlds "without end." Whether or not these other 'gods,' are gods in the same way or whether the term god simply denotes the presence of a divine being is debatable. We have zero scriptures detailing other gods.

That is one way that mormons and christians differ, it is not debatable to Christians,

QuoteThat is one way that mormons and christians differ, it is not debatable to Christians,

What's not debatable? The idea of many gods? That's clearly not debatable since the Bible makes this pretty clear. What is debatable is the role of these gods and what authority, if any, they have.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Mar 08, 2013 - 22:41:07

QuoteThat is one way that mormons and christians differ, it is not debatable to Christians,

What's not debatable? The idea of many gods? That's clearly not debatable since the Bible makes this pretty clear. What is debatable is the role of these gods and what authority, if any, they have.

You stated  "Whether or not these other 'gods,' are gods in the same way"

To a Christian it is not debatable if anyone or thing is equal to God.

QuoteTo a Christian it is not debatable if anyone or thing is equal to God.

I don't believe I said anything was equal to God. My stance has always been that save for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, we know literally nothing about other divine beings other than that they exist. I don't believe there is anything equal with God the father either.

QuoteThere are many cultish things about their doctrines

But I have yet to hear how you define cult. As far as I can tell, your definition of the word is anything that doesn't agree with your interpretation of scripture.

Quote
No, they would be shown how it is perfectly fine to do it because IT IS BIBLICAL

It doesn't matter that it's in the Bible. It's still considered weird and cult-like by people on the outside. You are putting forth a flawed argument that cult=anything not found in the Bible, and that's simply not true. Many, many Protestant denominations have extra-biblical practices. And as I've already pointed out, the Trinity isn't in the Bible. That must mean you accept cult-like beliefs, if we use your definition of cult.

Quote
And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet.

I stand corrected. My apologies.

Quote
If they call the Godhead the Royal Family, I would be using that terminology. It matters not the nomenclature. What matters is that we understand who the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are

.

But you don't. Unless you deviate from every other Christian in how the Trinity is defined, you believe in an erroneous, fourth century concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Bible never teaches that the three are "co-equal, co-eternal and co-substantial." This is the doctrine that Trinitarians embrace and it's not supported by scripture.

Quote
What has happened here is that Mormonism has devised new sacred things, which are worthy of being mocked and cast down from their false perch.

And if you wish to continue believing as such, fine. My point was that withholding sacred things from those who would mock it is not the sign of a cult, since Christ taught that. Certainly you can dispute the relevance of our ordinances, but it is unfair to bring out the word Cult simply because we refuse to discuss highly sacred things in a public forum, thereby opening them up to ridicule and derision.

QuoteThe LDS does not teach its people the truth.

Yes they do.

Quote
Jesus and Satan are no more like brothers than dogs and cats. God is not flesh and bone! He is Spirit!

Jesus's father is God. God also created Satan. Therefore, God is Father to both.

QuoteJohn 4:24
God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

God is Spirit, yes. He is a spiritual being. But nowhere does it say He is ONLY spirit. The Bible also says God is a consuming fire, that he is light. That he is love. Is he only these things? No. Nor is He just a spirit. It's important to realize that the word "is," was inserted by translators and there are no definite articles like 'a' in Greek. This leaves only two Greek words remaining, which translated only to God Spirit. That makes the translation a little more ambiguous, don't you think?

In 1st Corinthians, Paul teaches that our resurrected bodies are "spiritual," bodies. And we know that resurrected bodies are physical. With this interpretation in mind, it is easy to see how God is "Spirit," while still having a tangible body.

And what do you make of the second part of that verse, where we are to worship Him in spirit? Does that mean we are to leave our physical bodies in order to worship Him? Probably not. Therefore, it would be erroneous to assume that the verse was speaking of God being only a spirit as literal.

QuoteYes, the first century Church believed this and passed it down.

We baptize in the authority of the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---as equals.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2:10
And you are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].

Galatians 4:6
To show that you are his children, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who cries out, "Father, my Father."

I hate to say it, but not a single one of those verses makes any reference to a Trinity that is Co-eternal, Co-equal and Co-substantial. They only make reference to three personages, the father, son and holy ghost. Not a single one of these verses conflicts with LDS teachings, and you have still failed to illustrate that the Biblical writers understood the Godhead in the same way that modern Trinitarians do.

Quote
Sounds like brainwashing to me. The doctrines are extra-biblical and not worthy of learning.

Brainwashing? You've got to be kidding me. Now you have a problem with us being too studious? Please explain how we are brainwashed, especially when we are not forced to do any of these things. I didn't attend Seminary, for example, because I live too far away from the church and it didn't fit into my schedule.

It's funny that you first claim that the LDS church withholds information from it's members, and when I show that is not the case, your argument becomes one of 'forcibly,' pumping too much information into members. Which is it?

QuoteNo I am not. I rely on what Holy Spirit has revealed to me as truth. He uses His word and His people, anointed to teach to make sure His people are steeped in His truth and are enabled to recognize spiritual falsehood and distortion at the drop of a hat. I am ever so thankful to my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ for that, and have never been so thankful of that very thing until I came to this board.

If you accept the Trinity, then you are relying on man-made Creeds and ignoring what the Bible says. The Trinity is NOT in the Bible and if you subscribe to this doctrine, you are embracing extra-biblical teachings thought up by religious philosophers.

QuoteJesus is God, and He is God in the flesh (not "once a man"), but God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever. Jesus has always been the Son.

What does "in the flesh," mean, then? It is my understanding that Christians believe that Jesus was fully God and Fully Man. If this is true, then yes, you believe God was once a man.

As to whether or not God was ever a man is speculation. The Bible does say that He has always been God, but that doesn't preclude the idea that he once served a similar mission to Jesus Christ, who was also God prior to sojourning in Mortality.

QuoteGenesis 1:26
God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth.

This doesn't conflict with LDS teachings at all.

Quote
Take a second or third look at what you wrote.

I give up. I don't see anything I said that denotes that this conversion was of Man. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said the exact opposite.

QuoteGod would never lead someone down a wrong road.

True. And for me, He didn't.

Quote2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Maybe YOU were deceived by Satan.

QuoteLuke 21:8
Jesus: 8 Be careful. It's easy to be deceived. Many people will come claiming to have My authority. They'll shout, "I'm the One!" or "The time is now!" Don't take a step in their direction.

Yes, also true. I'm fortunate to know that the authority of Jesus Christ is indeed found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is the other Christian sects that have taken upon themselves this authority when they have no right to do so.

Quote
No, He will answer, because you need them. God has not founded the LDS church!

As you have so aptly pointed out, God does not lead one to error. Therefore, He will not pull me out of the church that He founded.

QuoteJude 1:23
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

Good advice. This is what the LDS are actively trying to do through their extensive missionary program.

QuoteI pray Holy Spirit will cause the scales to fall from your eyes and that He will open your eyes to HIS truth.

You're about fifteen years too late. He has indeed opened my eyes to the truth and it is more glorious than I ever thought possible.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Sat Mar 09, 2013 - 10:22:09

QuoteThere are many cultish things about their doctrines

But I have yet to hear how you define cult. As far as I can tell, your definition of the word is anything that doesn't agree with your interpretation of scripture.

A cult is a group whose earmarks are EXCLUSIVITY ("We're the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger."), and is SECRETIVE (Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they're presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.), and is AUTHORITARIAN (Leadership expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience), which is not always a feature of some cults. They often promote that they have a SPECIAL REVELATION, adding to scripture and adding efforts or particular works in the practice of their "religion".

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone
No, they would be shown how it is perfectly fine to do it because IT IS BIBLICAL

It doesn't matter that it's in the Bible. It's still considered weird and cult-like by people on the outside. You are putting forth a flawed argument that cult=anything not found in the Bible, and that's simply not true. Many, many Protestant denominations have extra-biblical practices. And as I've already pointed out, the Trinity isn't in the Bible. That must mean you accept cult-like beliefs, if we use your definition of cult.

People on the outside consider being a Christian weird. That doesn't stop me from showing them Christ. If it isn't supported by scripture, but is encouraged by a so-called religion---we don't have to do it, because it is cultish. Period. Wearing weird underwear and practicing secret handshakes and considering them sacred is cultish behaviour.

Quote

QuoteAnd since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet.

I stand corrected. My apologies.

Thank you.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneIf they call the Godhead the Royal Family, I would be using that terminology. It matters not the nomenclature. What matters is that we understand who the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are

.

But you don't. Unless you deviate from every other Christian in how the Trinity is defined, you believe in an erroneous, fourth century concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The Bible never teaches that the three are "co-equal, co-eternal and co-substantial." This is the doctrine that Trinitarians embrace and it's not supported by scripture.

No. I believe that God is three Persons, which is how He presents Himself to mankind---Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All scriptural.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone
What has happened here is that Mormonism has devised new sacred things, which are worthy of being mocked and cast down from their false perch.

And if you wish to continue believing as such, fine. My point was that withholding sacred things from those who would mock it is not the sign of a cult, since Christ taught that. Certainly you can dispute the relevance of our ordinances, but it is unfair to bring out the word Cult simply because we refuse to discuss highly sacred things in a public forum, thereby opening them up to ridicule and derision.

Believing the truth of a matter is not merely my wish. It is necessary, in order to walk in righteousness with God. Christ has not taught anything concerning these outlandish ritual and things you hold to be sacred. It is indeed a cult that keeps things under cover and not open to the world. Jesus was all about being open.

Christians aren't afraid of mockery and ridicule! If you hold things secret because of derision, then you operate out of fear and promote ignorance. That is cultish.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneThe LDS does not teach its people the truth.

Yes they do.

No, there is some truth mixed in, but you should know what Jesus says about a little leaven:

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].


There will be judgment to fall heavily on those who mess with the truth.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone
Jesus and Satan are no more like brothers than dogs and cats. God is not flesh and bone! He is Spirit!

Jesus's father is God. God also created Satan. Therefore, God is Father to both.

That is from a lying spirit. God is Creator to angelic beings, but He is not their Father. Jesus is Satan's Creator and is no one's brother but ours.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneJohn 4:24
God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

God is Spirit, yes. He is a spiritual being. But nowhere does it say He is ONLY spirit. The Bible also says God is a consuming fire, that he is light. That he is love. Is he only these things? No. Nor is He just a spirit. It's important to realize that the word "is," was inserted by translators and there are no definite articles like 'a' in Greek. This leaves only two Greek words remaining, which translated only to God Spirit. That makes the translation a little more ambiguous, don't you think?

He says that God is a Spirit. He presents Himself as light and as fire---as Holy Spirit does. I don't argue with God about that.

QuoteIn 1st Corinthians, Paul teaches that our resurrected bodies are "spiritual," bodies. And we know that resurrected bodies are physical. With this interpretation in mind, it is easy to see how God is "Spirit," while still having a tangible body.

God's tangible body has a name: JESUS.

QuoteAnd what do you make of the second part of that verse, where we are to worship Him in spirit? Does that mean we are to leave our physical bodies in order to worship Him? Probably not. Therefore, it would be erroneous to assume that the verse was speaking of God being only a spirit as literal.

It means we are to worship Him with our whole selves: body, soul and spirit.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYes, the first century Church believed this and passed it down.

We baptize in the authority of the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---as equals.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2:10
And you are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].

Galatians 4:6
To show that you are his children, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who cries out, "Father, my Father."

I hate to say it, but not a single one of those verses makes any reference to a Trinity that is Co-eternal, Co-equal and Co-substantial. They only make reference to three personages, the father, son and holy ghost. Not a single one of these verses conflicts with LDS teachings, and you have still failed to illustrate that the Biblical writers understood the Godhead in the same way that modern Trinitarians do.

Yes, three PERSONS!

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneSounds like brainwashing to me. The doctrines are extra-biblical and not worthy of learning.

Brainwashing? You've got to be kidding me. Now you have a problem with us being too studious? Please explain how we are brainwashed, especially when we are not forced to do any of these things. I didn't attend Seminary, for example, because I live too far away from the church and it didn't fit into my schedule.

It's funny that you first claim that the LDS church withholds information from it's members, and when I show that is not the case, your argument becomes one of 'forcibly,' pumping too much information into members. Which is it?

Indoctrination of the Mormon system is brainwashing. Satan makes the false doctrines seem enticingly true to people who are searching for the truth. A little lie here and a little lie there makes for a mind and heart that will eventually accept a whopper.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneNo I am not. I rely on what Holy Spirit has revealed to me as truth. He uses His word and His people, anointed to teach to make sure His people are steeped in His truth and are enabled to recognize spiritual falsehood and distortion at the drop of a hat. I am ever so thankful to my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ for that, and have never been so thankful of that very thing until I came to this board.

If you accept the Trinity, then you are relying on man-made Creeds and ignoring what the Bible says. The Trinity is NOT in the Bible and if you subscribe to this doctrine, you are embracing extra-biblical teachings thought up by religious philosophers.

What's your big beef with God being three Persons? He is THREE PERSONS, and He is manifested that way in scripture.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneJesus is God, and He is God in the flesh (not "once a man"), but God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever. Jesus has always been the Son.

What does "in the flesh," mean, then? It is my understanding that Christians believe that Jesus was fully God and Fully Man. If this is true, then yes, you believe God was once a man.

As to whether or not God was ever a man is speculation. The Bible does say that He has always been God, but that doesn't preclude the idea that he once served a similar mission to Jesus Christ, who was also God prior to sojourning in Mortality.

God the Father has never been a man, as Mormons believe. Jesus is God and man--and even now is still God and man. Holy Spirit is God and the spirit of Christ.

If you must SPECULATE about how God presents Himself, then you are in the dark.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneGod would never lead someone down a wrong road.

True. And for me, He didn't.

Yet you have embarked on a journey down a long, wide-shouldered road. He hasn't led you there.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Maybe YOU were deceived by Satan.

Satan always tries to deceive those who walk in the Light, but as I know my Master, Jesus' voice, I can easily recognize Satan's shrill notes, and kick him where it hurts.

I am grateful to God for His discerning power to be able to keenly detect Satanic lies, so that I am not easily deceived. The LDS is extremely easy to mark as deception.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneLuke 21:8
Jesus: 8 Be careful. It's easy to be deceived. Many people will come claiming to have My authority. They'll shout, "I'm the One!" or "The time is now!" Don't take a step in their direction.

Yes, also true. I'm fortunate to know that the authority of Jesus Christ is indeed found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is the other Christian sects that have taken upon themselves this authority when they have no right to do so.

Actually, the authority of Jesus Christ is found in every believer---not in any one church group---so you have stepped off into deep deception right there.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneNo, He will answer, because you need them. God has not founded the LDS church!

As you have so aptly pointed out, God does not lead one to error. Therefore, He will not pull me out of the church that He founded.

He surely wants to, but if you want to stay mired in deception, that is your choice.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneJude 1:23
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

Good advice. This is what the LDS are actively trying to do through their extensive missionary program.

Which fights against what the body of Christ is doing in the world.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneI pray Holy Spirit will cause the scales to fall from your eyes and that He will open your eyes to HIS truth.

You're about fifteen years too late. He has indeed opened my eyes to the truth and it is more glorious than I ever thought possible.

If you don't wake up to the truth, you will be more than just 15 years too late. 

QuoteA cult is a group whose earmarks are EXCLUSIVITY ("We're the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger."), and is SECRETIVE (Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they're presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.), and is AUTHORITARIAN (Leadership expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience), which is not always a feature of some cults. They often promote that they have a SPECIAL REVELATION, adding to scripture and adding efforts or particular works in the practice of their "religion".

Oh, okay. So Jesus was the leader of a cult, then. What you just described fits perfectly with the early Christian movement.

Quote

People on the outside consider being a Christian weird. That doesn't stop me from showing them Christ. If it isn't supported by scripture, but is encouraged by a so-called religion---we don't have to do it, because it is cultish. Period. Wearing weird underwear and practicing secret handshakes and considering them sacred is cultish behaviour.

Do you also consider it cultish teenagers who wear purity rings to remind them of their vow to stay chaste, or people who wear crosses to remind them of the Savior?

Never mind the overwhelming biblical support for sacred clothing.

QuoteNo. I believe that God is three Persons, which is how He presents Himself to mankind---Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All scriptural.

Which is also what I believe. My gripe is with the false Trinitarian notion of the three persons being co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial. That is the definition of the Holy Trinity as understood today. Do you believe this, or not?

Quote
Believing the truth of a matter is not merely my wish. It is necessary, in order to walk in righteousness with God. Christ has not taught anything concerning these outlandish ritual and things you hold to be sacred. It is indeed a cult that keeps things under cover and not open to the world. Jesus was all about being open.

Jesus did teach these things. Just because they're not in the Bible doesn't mean they didn't come from him. The Bible even says that there were many things Christ taught that were not written.

We don't keep things from the world. We would love for everyone to participate in the temple ordinances. But their nature is still sacred and shouldn't be discussed lightly.

Quote
Christians aren't afraid of mockery and ridicule! If you hold things secret because of derision, then you operate out of fear and promote ignorance. That is cultish.

Christians aren't afraid of mockery, true, but that doesn't mean they like to get mocked, or that they should actively seek it. If someone told you he had plans to burn copies of the Bible, would you then hand one over if he asked? Likewise with us, the mocking is going to come, but I'm not going to willfully ask for the things of God to be ridiculed. God himself said that He will not be mocked.

Besides which, there is clear biblical precedent for this thinking. Jesus instructed his followers to not put sacred things before those who would belittle them.

Quote
No, there is some truth mixed in, but you should know what Jesus says about a little leaven:

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].


There will be judgment to fall heavily on those who mess with the truth.

This is understood. But since it is actually the rest of Christianity who has 'some truth,' I don't see how this applies to us.

QuoteThat is from a lying spirit. God is Creator to angelic beings, but He is not their Father. Jesus is Satan's Creator and is no one's brother but ours.

God created angelic beings, yes. In essence, he 'fathered,' them. Keep in mind, the LDS church does not hold that Jesus and Satan are brothers in the biological sense, like mortal brothers. God the Father is considered father to both, so they are 'spiritually' related.

QuoteHe says that God is a Spirit. He presents Himself as light and as fire---as Holy Spirit does. I don't argue with God about that.

Nor do I. But as I've already shown, the Bible does not say He is only Spirit. We believe Him to be a Spirit too, a spirit housed in a glorified, exalted physical body.

QuoteGod's tangible body has a name: JESUS.

So are you saying that you believe God DOES have a physical body? I'm a little confused here.

QuoteIt means we are to worship Him with our whole selves: body, soul and spirit.

Exactly! By your own admission, worshiping in spirit does not mean ONLY in spirit, but in body, soul and spirit. So too is God possessor of both Body and Spirit.

QuoteYes, three PERSONS!

Right. Is it possible that our conceptions of God are not terribly dissimilar?

QuoteIndoctrination of the Mormon system is brainwashing. Satan makes the false doctrines seem enticingly true to people who are searching for the truth. A little lie here and a little lie there makes for a mind and heart that will eventually accept a whopper.

You can say the same thing of any church or religion. Being taught what your church's doctrine is does not constitute brainwashing. It means only that you belong to a church. Brainwashing is defined as "systematically using unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated." You will not find coercive practices or forced learning within the LDS church. Everything is voluntary. Again, being taught something does not constitute brainwashing.

QuoteWhat's your big beef with God being three Persons? He is THREE PERSONS, and He is manifested that way in scripture.

I don't have a problem at all with God being three persons. I have issue with the Trinitarian understanding of their oneness is all. I dispute that they are all of one substance (I'm not even sure what that would mean) and I dispute them being Co-equal, as I believe God the Father is greater than Jesus Christ.

QuoteYet you have embarked on a journey down a long, wide-shouldered road. He hasn't led you there.

With all due respect, I am a greater expert on my spirituality than you are. I know where I stand with God, I know He hears my prayers and answers them, and I know He wants me to be a member of this church. My Testimony is unflappable in this matter.

QuoteSatan always tries to deceive those who walk in the Light, but as I know my Master, Jesus' voice, I can easily recognize Satan's shrill notes, and kick him where it hurts.

The power to discern the presence of the Evil One is a most precious gift. But you're not the only one who can do that. Do you not think I've felt the tempting, deceitful ways of Satan? Do you not think that I, too have had to call upon my God for power to overcome his snares? I have and I do. And I can attest with all my might, mind and strength, having a knowledge of the ways in which Satan works, that it was not him who guided me to this church. It was nothing less than the active hand of God in bringing my family into the true Gospel.

Quote
Actually, the authority of Jesus Christ is found in every believer---not in any one church group---so you have stepped off into deep deception right there.

Every believer...who belongs to Christ's true church and who has been called and ordained by God. Remember, no man can take this honor upon himself. He must be called of God, as was Aaron.

QuoteWhich fights against what the body of Christ is doing in the world.

On the contrary, we are bringing the fullness of the gospel to the inhabitants of this earth. Seeing the church grow and expand, seeing its membership increase and seeing Joseph Smith's prophecy that temples will dot the earth come to fruition is testament of the truthfulness of our claims.

Quote
If you don't wake up to the truth, you will be more than just 15 years too late

I don't believe I'll ever be able to convince you of the reality of my experiences or of the truthfulness of the church. All I can leave you with is my testimony that it's true, and that I know this beyond Man's ability to reason. God lives, Jesus is the Christ and His true church was restored through His chosen Prophet, Joseph Smith.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Sat Mar 09, 2013 - 15:02:57

Quote from: Lively StoneA cult is a group whose earmarks are EXCLUSIVITY ("We're the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger."), and is SECRETIVE (Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they're presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.), and is AUTHORITARIAN (Leadership expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience), which is not always a feature of some cults. They often promote that they have a SPECIAL REVELATION, adding to scripture and adding efforts or particular works in the practice of their "religion".

Oh, okay. So Jesus was the leader of a cult, then. What you just described fits perfectly with the early Christian movement.

You are evading.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StonePeople on the outside consider being a Christian weird. That doesn't stop me from showing them Christ. If it isn't supported by scripture, but is encouraged by a so-called religion---we don't have to do it, because it is cultish. Period. Wearing weird underwear and practicing secret handshakes and considering them sacred is cultish behaviour.

Do you also consider it cultish teenagers who wear purity rings to remind them of their vow to stay chaste, or people who wear crosses to remind them of the Savior?

Never mind the overwhelming biblical support for sacred clothing.

LOL! If a young person desires to wear a purity ring to denote her vow of chastity until marriage, that is not cultish. It is cultural, just as wedding rings are cultural.

Your sacred underwear is cultish.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneNo. I believe that God is three Persons, which is how He presents Himself to mankind---Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All scriptural.

Which is also what I believe. My gripe is with the false Trinitarian notion of the three persons being co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial. That is the definition of the Holy Trinity as understood today. Do you believe this, or not?

Never heard of that. They are co-everything.

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Quote from: Lively StoneBelieving the truth of a matter is not merely my wish. It is necessary, in order to walk in righteousness with God. Christ has not taught anything concerning these outlandish rituals and things you hold to be sacred. It is indeed a cult that keeps things under cover and not open to the world. Jesus was all about being open.

Jesus did teach these things. Just because they're not in the Bible doesn't mean they didn't come from him. The Bible even says that there were many things Christ taught that were not written.

Jesus didn't teach anything that isn't recorded in His word. If it isn't in the bible, and someone claims it is from Jesus, you should know instantly that it is a lie.

QuoteWe don't keep things from the world. We would love for everyone to participate in the temple ordinances. But their nature is still sacred and shouldn't be discussed lightly.

Hey, the LDS keeps things from you!

There is nothing sacred that cannot be discussed openly. You shroud everything in sacredness, which is the mark of religiosity, and that is a snare.

Daniel 28:21b-22
He gives wisdom to the wise
    and knowledge to the scholars.
He reveals deep and mysterious things
    and knows what lies hidden in darkness,
    though he is surrounded by light.

Mark 4:22
Those things that are hidden are meant to be revealed, and what is concealed is meant to be brought out where its light can shine.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneChristians aren't afraid of mockery and ridicule! If you hold things secret because of derision, then you operate out of fear and promote ignorance. That is cultish.

Christians aren't afraid of mockery, true, but that doesn't mean they like to get mocked, or that they should actively seek it. If someone told you he had plans to burn copies of the Bible, would you then hand one over if he asked? Likewise with us, the mocking is going to come, but I'm not going to willfully ask for the things of God to be ridiculed. God himself said that He will not be mocked.

Besides which, there is clear biblical precedent for this thinking. Jesus instructed his followers to not put sacred things before those who would belittle them.

The problem is that you have a lack of understanding of what God considers sacred. Mormonism has warped the concept by declaring things sacred which are not. That is the doing of the evil spirit of religion.

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone
No, there is some truth mixed in, but you should know what Jesus says about a little leaven:

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].


There will be judgment to fall heavily on those who mess with the truth.

This is understood. But since it is actually the rest of Christianity who has 'some truth,' I don't see how this applies to us.

The whole concept points right at the LDS. Guilty as charged.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneThat is from a lying spirit. God is Creator to angelic beings, but He is not their Father. Jesus is Satan's Creator and is no one's brother but ours.

God created angelic beings, yes. In essence, he 'fathered,' them. Keep in mind, the LDS church does not hold that Jesus and Satan are brothers in the biological sense, like mortal brothers. God the Father is considered father to both, so they are 'spiritually' related.

You change the concept of God as Father. Is He the Father of flora and fauna? He is their Creator, but He is only our Father. Your church is completely missing the boat in their reworking of the concept of God, and needs to be quiet. You out yourself as a cult when you try to approach this topic with your outlandish claims.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneHe says that God is a Spirit. He presents Himself as light and as fire---as Holy Spirit does. I don't argue with God about that.

Nor do I. But as I've already shown, the Bible does not say He is only Spirit. We believe Him to be a Spirit too, a spirit housed in a glorified, exalted physical body.

The word tells us that God the Father is Spirit. That is who He is and that is His substance. The body God has is made of spirit, which has substance. The physical body belongs to Jesus.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneGod's tangible body has a name: JESUS.

So are you saying that you believe God DOES have a physical body? I'm a little confused here.

I'm not suprised that you are confused. God's physical body is Jesus' body.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneIt means we are to worship Him with our whole selves: body, soul and spirit.

Exactly! By your own admission, worshiping in spirit does not mean ONLY in spirit, but in body, soul and spirit. So too is God possessor of both Body and Spirit.

Right, as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYes, three PERSONS!

Right. Is it possible that our conceptions of God are not terribly dissimilar?

I am loathe to agree, however if I dig deep enough I will see the finger of the devil somewhere there, distorting the truth in some way. He wouldn't dare leave the essence of who God is untouched. I have already seen how God is distorted by the Mormon religion, making him a creature of flesh and bone, who has had a wife and fathered both Jesus and Lucifer. That's a ploy of Lucifer Himself.

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Quote from: Lively StoneIndoctrination of the Mormon system is brainwashing. Satan makes the false doctrines seem enticingly true to people who are searching for the truth. A little lie here and a little lie there makes for a mind and heart that will eventually accept a whopper.

You can say the same thing of any church or religion. Being taught what your church's doctrine is does not constitute brainwashing. It means only that you belong to a church. Brainwashing is defined as "systematically using unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated." You will not find coercive practices or forced learning within the LDS church. Everything is voluntary. Again, being taught something does not constitute brainwashing.

I say the same thing about all religions.

I say that the ideas the Mormon religion teaches is a manipulation and is definitely to the detriment of those who fall for them. Spiritually, there is a cost to the acceptance of a false gospel...not only to the one who receives it, but even more so to those who teach it.

When so-called "missionaries" go door-to-door enticing people who are lost and seeking truth into their brand of truth, it is a cunning ans subtle way of intimidation and coercion, just like the JW's do. It's a pretty package, but what is inside the box is a brood of snakes.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneWhat's your big beef with God being three Persons? He is THREE PERSONS, and He is manifested that way in scripture.

I don't have a problem at all with God being three persons. I have issue with the Trinitarian understanding of their oneness is all. I dispute that they are all of one substance (I'm not even sure what that would mean) and I dispute them being Co-equal, as I believe God the Father is greater than Jesus Christ.

All Persons in the Godhead are equal to one another. No One is greater than the other. The fact that the Son took on human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father temporarily in no way denies the deity of Jesus Christ, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYet you have embarked on a journey down a long, wide-shouldered road. He hasn't led you there.

With all due respect, I am a greater expert on my spirituality than you are. I know where I stand with God, I know He hears my prayers and answers them, and I know He wants me to be a member of this church. My Testimony is unflappable in this matter.

I am sure you are aware of your own spiritual truth, but you are not aware that you are traveling on the broad road, apart from all born again Christians in the world who are traveling the narrow road toward their destination---LIFE.

Matthew 7:13-14
"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneSatan always tries to deceive those who walk in the Light, but as I know my Master, Jesus' voice, I can easily recognize Satan's shrill notes, and kick him where it hurts.

The power to discern the presence of the Evil One is a most precious gift. But you're not the only one who can do that. Do you not think I've felt the tempting, deceitful ways of Satan? Do you not think that I, too have had to call upon my God for power to overcome his snares? I have and I do. And I can attest with all my might, mind and strength, having a knowledge of the ways in which Satan works, that it was not him who guided me to this church. It was nothing less than the active hand of God in bringing my family into the true Gospel.

It wasn't God. He is trying to lead you out.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneActually, the authority of Jesus Christ is found in every believer---not in any one church group---so you have stepped off into deep deception right there.

Every believer...who belongs to Christ's true church and who has been called and ordained by God. Remember, no man can take this honor upon himself. He must be called of God, as was Aaron.

Nope. All believers have the authority of Jesus Christ---everything He has we have, and everything He did we can do, because we are joint-heirs with Him.

Mark 16:17-18
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed."

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneWhich fights against what the body of Christ is doing in the world.

On the contrary, we are bringing the fullness of the gospel to the inhabitants of this earth. Seeing the church grow and expand, seeing its membership increase and seeing Joseph Smith's prophecy that temples will dot the earth come to fruition is testament of the truthfulness of our claims.

No, Mormonism fights against the Spirit of God and hampers what the body of Christ is called to do. We are in a battle and the minds and hearts of men are the battlefield.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneIf you don't wake up to the truth, you will be more than just 15 years too late

I don't believe I'll ever be able to convince you of the reality of my experiences or of the truthfulness of the church. All I can leave you with is my testimony that it's true, and that I know this beyond Man's ability to reason. God lives, Jesus is the Christ and His true church was restored through His chosen Prophet, Joseph Smith.

No, you can never convince me of what Holy Spirit has convinced me against by the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His precious word.

Joseph Smith was a heretic in the truest sense of the word, and cannot be considered a prophet of God. He is more akin to Mohammed.

QuoteYou are evading.

I'm not evading. You gave your definition of a cult and unwittingly condemned Jesus as a cultist.

Quote
LOL! If a young person desires to wear a purity ring to denote her vow of chastity until marriage, that is not cultish. It is cultural, just as wedding rings are cultural.

According to you it IS cultish. Are purity rings found in the Bible? Are cross jewelry? No. Therefore, since the Bible doesn't say it, it must be cultish. This is your definition we're working with here.

Quote
Your sacred underwear is cultish.

Based on your own made up definition. Tell me, do you believe it is cultish when Aaron was instructed to wear white garments next to their skin. The garments they wore were in association with officiating in the Temple. So actually, our beliefs regarding temple garments are biblical.

Remember, our temple garments are intended to remind us of the covenants we have made with God and as such are not all that very different in intent than a purity ring or cross.

QuoteNever heard of that. They are co-everything.

Co-eternal, Co-substantial, Co-equal is what defines the Trinitarian concept of God. Mormons reject this because it is not biblical. When you spoke of the Trinity, it was under the assumption that you believed these things as well. I still don't know if you do or not.

Quote
Jesus didn't teach anything that isn't recorded in His word. If it isn't in the bible, and someone claims it is from Jesus, you should know instantly that it is a lie.

John 21:25

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

What were these other things he did? Miracles? Probably. But there's a high likelihood that he gave additional instructions as well. And again, nowhere does the Bible say that all of God's truth is contained only in the sixty six books of the Bible.

Quote
Hey, the LDS keeps things from you!

There is nothing sacred that cannot be discussed openly. You shroud everything in sacredness, which is the mark of religiosity, and that is a snare.

Except for when Jesus says otherwise. Remember, pearls before swine? Clearly we are told not to sully the things which are sacred before a hostile and ungodly crowd.

Quote
The problem is that you have a lack of understanding of what God considers sacred. Mormonism has warped the concept by declaring things sacred which are not. That is the doing of the evil spirit of religion.

This is a matter of personal belief on your part. As for me, I know better.

QuoteThe whole concept points right at the LDS. Guilty as charged.

Disagree, of course.

Quote
You change the concept of God as Father. Is He the Father of flora and fauna? He is their Creator, but He is only our Father. Your church is completely missing the boat in their reworking of the concept of God, and needs to be quiet. You out yourself as a cult when you try to approach this topic with your outlandish claims.

I didn't change anything. We view God as our father and as theirs because He created us. Let me state it plainly here, we don't believe Jesus and Satan are brothers in the same way that we look at human relations. Jesus and Satan, or any of us, were not born in the same way people on earth are born. God created us. We don't know how, and we don't really care.

Quote
The word tells us that God the Father is Spirit. That is who He is and that is His substance. The body God has is made of spirit, which has substance. The physical body belongs to Jesus.

And where does the Bible say that God's only substance is spirit? As I've already said, the original Greek merely says God Spirit. We agree that God is Spirit, but as the Apostle Paul pointed out, physical, resurrected bodies are considered "spiritual bodies." You are reading your already preconceived notions into this verse and the Bible doesn't support it.

QuoteI am loathe to agree, however if I dig deep enough I will see the finger of the devil somewhere there, distorting the truth in some way. He wouldn't dare leave the essence of who God is untouched. I have already seen how God is distorted by the Mormon religion, making him a creature of flesh and bone, who has had a wife and fathered both Jesus and Lucifer. That's a ploy of Lucifer Himself.

Another accusation of the devil working his magic, so to speak. Look all you want, the devil has no part in our faith.

The essence of who God is was perverted by Christians in the early fourth century. The LDS position is the one espoused throughout the Bible and was the orthodox position for the first two or three centuries afterwards. This is a matter of simple research.

Quote
All Persons in the Godhead are equal to one another. No One is greater than the other. The fact that the Son took on human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father temporarily in no way denies the deity of Jesus Christ, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father.

The Bible makes it plain that the Son is subordinate to the Father. Jesus Christ said that the Father is greater than he is. That alone is pretty damaging to your claim. Then factor in Christ's statement that he has come to do the will of his father who sent him, not his own. So again, we have a father who devised the plan of salvation, and sent the Son. Also, it is well known that only the father knows the time of the end of the world. If they were both equal, this would be knowledge afforded to both. And last, we have the words of the resurrected savior to Mary Magdalene, that he has not yet ascended to his father...and his god. So right here, we see that the Son perceives the Father to be His God. That in no way implies equality.

Quote
I am sure you are aware of your own spiritual truth, but you are not aware that you are traveling on the broad road, apart from all born again Christians in the world who are traveling the narrow road toward their destination---LIFE.

On the contrary. I fear it is YOU who is lost right now, wandering in darkness. Indeed, much as the prophet Amos predicted, that there would be many running to and fro, searching for the true word of God and will not be able to find it. Fortunately, I face no such dilemma. I am in God's kingdom and it has brought tremendous blessings to me and my family.

QuoteIt wasn't God. He is trying to lead you out.

You weren't there. It was indeed God. If you experienced what I did, you'd have no choice but to believe. For me, my beliefs have transcended faith to the point where I have a perfect and full knowledge of the Truth.

QuoteNo, Mormonism fights against the Spirit of God and hampers what the body of Christ is called to do. We are in a battle and the minds and hearts of men are the battlefield.

Actually, it is Mormons who are the only ones authorized to preach the gospel and administer in the saving ordinances of the gospel.

Quote
Nope. All believers have the authority of Jesus Christ---everything He has we have, and everything He did we can do, because we are joint-heirs with Him.

Yes all believers of Christ's true church. But the Priesthood is found only in the LDS church and no man can claim authority unless called by God through revelation, as per the criteria laid out in the Bible.

And as a little side note, notice how we are joint-heirs with Christ. Think about that in regard to our belief in the deification of Man. Think of what Christ has and is, and what it means to be an heir.

Quote
Mark 16:17-18
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed."

Yes, those who believe and are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Quote
No, you can never convince me of what Holy Spirit has convinced me against by the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His precious word.

Unfortunately, it wasn't the Holy Spirit. If it was the Spirit, you'd be Mormon by now.

QuoteJoseph Smith was a heretic in the truest sense of the word, and cannot be considered a prophet of God. He is more akin to Mohammed.

Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God, foreordained to usher in the dispensation of the fullness of times. Reject him at your peril.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Sat Mar 09, 2013 - 20:55:33

QuoteYou are evading.

I'm not evading. You gave your definition of a cult and unwittingly condemned Jesus as a cultist.

Nope, never did that. 

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneLOL! If a young person desires to wear a purity ring to denote her vow of chastity until marriage, that is not cultish. It is cultural, just as wedding rings are cultural.

According to you it IS cultish. Are purity rings found in the Bible? Are cross jewelry? No. Therefore, since the Bible doesn't say it, it must be cultish. This is your definition we're working with here.

Not. you need to discern the difference between cultural and cultish. I've done that. Your turn.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYour sacred underwear is cultish.

Based on your own made up definition. Tell me, do you believe it is cultish when Aaron was instructed to wear white garments next to their skin. The garments they wore were in association with officiating in the Temple. So actually, our beliefs regarding temple garments are biblical.

LOL! "Instructed" is the byword, here. Who gave the instruction?

QuoteRemember, our temple garments are intended to remind us of the covenants we have made with God and as such are not all that very different in intent than a purity ring or cross.

Temple life no longer exists. Making your activities secret and sacred is the telling point that it is not cultural but cultish--and not required by God in serving Him.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneNever heard of that. They are co-everything.

Co-eternal, Co-substantial, Co-equal is what defines the Trinitarian concept of God. Mormons reject this because it is not biblical. When you spoke of the Trinity, it was under the assumption that you believed these things as well. I still don't know if you do or not.

You reject a lot of things that ARE biblical. How can you expect anyone to believe that you know what you are talking about, scripturally?

Quote

Quote from: Lively Stone
Jesus didn't teach anything that isn't recorded in His word. If it isn't in the bible, and someone claims it is from Jesus, you should know instantly that it is a lie.

John 21:25

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

What were these other things he did? Miracles? Probably. But there's a high likelihood that he gave additional instructions as well. And again, nowhere does the Bible say that all of God's truth is contained only in the sixty six books of the Bible.

Typical. You want to use that one verse to excuse the Mormon's acceptance of another gospel dictated by a demon spirit to a wayward man?

There is NOTHING absent from scripture than ANYONE needs to know! Those countless other things that Jesus did were more of the same miraculous events He did that were recorded. He said nothing new or it would be there for us. You need to trust God!

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneHey, the LDS keeps things from you!

There is nothing sacred that cannot be discussed openly. You shroud everything in sacredness, which is the mark of religiosity, and that is a snare.

Except for when Jesus says otherwise. Remember, pearls before swine? Clearly we are told not to sully the things which are sacred before a hostile and ungodly crowd.

The first thing to remember is that one must know what is sacred and what isn't. Clearly, the Mormon needs instruction in that area. The truth is not to be kept under wraps.

Being wise and keeping one's lips shut is one thing, but keeping things shrouded in mystery and secrecy is not of God. It's a Satanic game. It is not unlike the Satanic cult of Freemasonry which your Joseph Smith was a member of.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneThe problem is that you have a lack of understanding of what God considers sacred. Mormonism has warped the concept by declaring things sacred which are not. That is the doing of the evil spirit of religion.

This is a matter of personal belief on your part. As for me, I know better.

That is not the truth.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneThe whole concept points right at the LDS. Guilty as charged.

Disagree, of course.

Of course, but it is true, nonetheless.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYou change the concept of God as Father. Is He the Father of flora and fauna? He is their Creator, but He is only our Father. Your church is completely missing the boat in their reworking of the concept of God, and needs to be quiet. You out yourself as a cult when you try to approach this topic with your outlandish claims.

I didn't change anything. We view God as our father and as theirs because He created us. Let me state it plainly here, we don't believe Jesus and Satan are brothers in the same way that we look at human relations. Jesus and Satan, or any of us, were not born in the same way people on earth are born. God created us. We don't know how, and we don't really care.

Your view is erroneous, and spiritually immature.

Jesus was born like any other baby boy is born.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneThe word tells us that God the Father is Spirit. That is who He is and that is His substance. The body God has is made of spirit, which has substance. The physical body belongs to Jesus.

And where does the Bible say that God's only substance is spirit? As I've already said, the original Greek merely says God Spirit. We agree that God is Spirit, but as the Apostle Paul pointed out, physical, resurrected bodies are considered "spiritual bodies." You are reading your already preconceived notions into this verse and the Bible doesn't support it.

I gave the scriptural passage already. It says that God is Spirit. That is His substance. You are keeping to your malformed understanding and adding to it the fact that human flesh will one day be glorified and become like Jesus' glorified flesh body. We will be exactly like He is. The Father remains as He always has been, and so does Holy Spirit.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneI am loathe to agree, however if I dig deep enough I will see the finger of the devil somewhere there, distorting the truth in some way. He wouldn't dare leave the essence of who God is untouched. I have already seen how God is distorted by the Mormon religion, making him a creature of flesh and bone, who has had a wife and fathered both Jesus and Lucifer. That's a ploy of Lucifer Himself.

Another accusation of the devil working his magic, so to speak. Look all you want, the devil has no part in our faith.

He is the great deceiver and the author of it all, that angel of light that appeared to the apostate and beguiled Joseph Smith.

QuoteThe essence of who God is was perverted by Christians in the early fourth century. The LDS position is the one espoused throughout the Bible and was the orthodox position for the first two or three centuries afterwards. This is a matter of simple research.

Nonsense.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneAll Persons in the Godhead are equal to one another. No One is greater than the other. The fact that the Son took on human nature and made Himself subservient to the Father temporarily in no way denies the deity of Jesus Christ, nor does it diminish His essential equality with the Father.

The Bible makes it plain that the Son is subordinate to the Father. Jesus Christ said that the Father is greater than he is. That alone is pretty damaging to your claim. Then factor in Christ's statement that he has come to do the will of his father who sent him, not his own. So again, we have a father who devised the plan of salvation, and sent the Son. Also, it is well known that only the father knows the time of the end of the world. If they were both equal, this would be knowledge afforded to both. And last, we have the words of the resurrected savior to Mary Magdalene, that he has not yet ascended to his father...and his god. So right here, we see that the Son perceives the Father to be His God. That in no way implies equality.

Nothing is damaging to my claim. Jesus placed Himself as submissive to the Father temporarily---as I said. His greatness and equality with Him is not in question.

Jesus chose to allow the Father to have such knowledge about the end, but Jesus has that knowledge well in hand now.

As for His appearance to Mary Magdalene, what are you saying---that Jesus the man shouldn't recognize the Father as God all of a sudden?

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneI am sure you are aware of your own spiritual truth, but you are not aware that you are traveling on the broad road, apart from all born again Christians in the world who are traveling the narrow road toward their destination---LIFE.

On the contrary. I fear it is YOU who is lost right now, wandering in darkness. Indeed, much as the prophet Amos predicted, that there would be many running to and fro, searching for the true word of God and will not be able to find it. Fortunately, I face no such dilemma. I am in God's kingdom and it has brought tremendous blessings to me and my family.

You have become lulled into sleep by the enemy. Being disobedient and accepting other revelations and false prophets leads to spiritual weakness and death:

Judges 16:19
Delilah lulled Samson to sleep with his head in her lap, and then she called in a man to shave off the seven locks of his hair. In this way she began to bring him down, and his strength left him.


The Lord Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and His word is my spiritual food. His Spirit dwells within me and shows me the way to go. He has never let me down. He shows me what is of God and what serves the cause of Satan. Mormonism is a blatant example of the delusion of Satan on the minds and hearts of men, women and dear children in many places on the globe.

I will spend my life stomping on Satan's head, and will not quit until I breathe my last---and even then I'll get a few good licks in.

Deuteronomy 28:13
If you listen to these commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today, and if you carefully obey them, the Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you will always be on top and never at the bottom.

Habakkuk 3:19
The Sovereign Lord is my strength! He makes me as surefooted as a deer, able to tread upon the heights.

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Quote from: Lively StoneIt wasn't God. He is trying to lead you out.

You weren't there. It was indeed God. If you experienced what I did, you'd have no choice but to believe. For me, my beliefs have transcended faith to the point where I have a perfect and full knowledge of the Truth.

I needn't have had to have been there. Experiencing God is not what you have experienced. You do not have full and perfect knowledge of the Truth. That is a lie of the enemy you are choosing to believe, and a prideful boast, because NO ONE person has full and perfect knowledge of the Truth. We who know Jesus Christ are all at different levels of sanctification, and maturity.

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Quote from: Lively StoneNo, Mormonism fights against the Spirit of God and hampers what the body of Christ is called to do. We are in a battle and the minds and hearts of men are the battlefield.

Actually, it is Mormons who are the only ones authorized to preach the gospel and administer in the saving ordinances of the gospel.

Now your error is condensing into solid patches. 

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Quote from: Lively StoneNope. All believers have the authority of Jesus Christ---everything He has we have, and everything He did we can do, because we are joint-heirs with Him.

Yes all believers of Christ's true church. But the Priesthood is found only in the LDS church and no man can claim authority unless called by God through revelation, as per the criteria laid out in the Bible.

And as a little side note, notice how we are joint-heirs with Christ. Think about that in regard to our belief in the deification of Man. Think of what Christ has and is, and what it means to be an heir.

More solid evidence of error. I am a member of the royal priesthood of God. I don't think you know the word very well. That is the problem with those who compromise God's holy word by accepting a man's delusional words that are touted as equal with God's holy word!

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Quote from: Lively StoneMark 16:17-18
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed."

Yes, those who believe and are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

More bamboozlement.

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Quote from: Lively StoneNo, you can never convince me of what Holy Spirit has convinced me against by the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His precious word.

Unfortunately, it wasn't the Holy Spirit. If it was the Spirit, you'd be Mormon by now.

God help you.

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Quote from: Lively StoneJoseph Smith was a heretic in the truest sense of the word, and cannot be considered a prophet of God. He is more akin to Mohammed.

Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God, foreordained to usher in the dispensation of the fullness of times. Reject him at your peril.

He has never demonstrated himself to be a prophet of God except to those his followers succeed in infecting with his tainted message, who never had the truth before they fell into the hands of the LDS.

I reject him and please the Lord Jesus Christ in doing so.

QuoteNope, never did that.

Yes you do. You defined a cult as being exclusive (the only ones who have salvation) By being authoritarian (demanding obedience) and by withholding some teachings. Jesus did all of these things. Does the Bible not teach that Jesus is the way, the only means of salvation? That there is no name given that can redeem mankind save Christ alone? Exclusivity. Are we not told to have complete faith and obedience in both the Father and Son, and likewise were not the ancient Jews subject to the words of the Prophets as delivered by God? Authoritarian. And didn't Jesus teach in parables to hide certain divine truths from the people? Remember when Christ took his disciples away from the crowd and said this, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted." Some of Christ's followers were granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, and others were not. Secretive.

QuoteNot. you need to discern the difference between cultural and cultish. I've done that. Your turn.

I'm not concerned with such a distinction. You're original claim was that it was cultish because it was not in the Bible. Neither are purity rings, therefore, you'd think those are cultish also. What you're doing now is changing your own definition by making a distinction between culture and cult. Your argument fails because you use your own definition of cult as proof that we are  one. That's a textbook example of circular reasoning.

QuoteLOL! "Instructed" is the byword, here. Who gave the instruction?

God did, but that's not my point. You scoffed at the idea of sacred clothing, believing that too is the sign of a cult. I merely pointed out that there is clear biblical precedence for this.

QuoteTemple life no longer exists. Making your activities secret and sacred is the telling point that it is not cultural but cultish--and not required by God in serving Him.

They're not secret. They're sacred. We will not withhold anything from those who honestly wish to partake. The Temple is open to all who are willing to obey the will of God.

QuoteYou reject a lot of things that ARE biblical. How can you expect anyone to believe that you know what you are talking about, scripturally?

I haven't rejected anything biblical. My understanding is different than yours is all. Now I may not be a Bible scholar, but I think I've done an adequate job of showing that I am at least passingly familiar with the Scriptures.

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Typical. You want to use that one verse to excuse the Mormon's acceptance of another gospel dictated by a demon spirit to a wayward man?

Mormons don't preach another gospel, but that's beside the point. My attempt was to illustrate that Jesus did far more than what is recorded in the Bible. What transpired, I don't know. I'm not saying he instituted modern day temple rituals to his disciples, nor do I believe that's what this was talking about. I aimed to show only that the Bible does not have a complete record of everything Christ said or did.

QuoteThere is NOTHING absent from scripture than ANYONE needs to know! Those countless other things that Jesus did were more of the same miraculous events He did that were recorded. He said nothing new or it would be there for us. You need to trust God!

And how do you know there is nothing absent? The Bible doesn't make that claim ever.

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The first thing to remember is that one must know what is sacred and what isn't. Clearly, the Mormon needs instruction in that area. The truth is not to be kept under wraps.

There's nothing to say to this if you insist on believing that these things aren't sacred. Of course you're going to hold such a view if you reject the church. I don't, however and see nothing in the Bible that forbids cherishing the sacred.

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Being wise and keeping one's lips shut is one thing, but keeping things shrouded in mystery and secrecy is not of God. It's a Satanic game. It is not unlike the Satanic cult of Freemasonry which your Joseph Smith was a member of.

We don't keep things shrouded in mystery and secrecy. Again, the Temple is available to all, as well as its moving symbolism.

I'm also unaware of the Freemasons being Satanic.

QuoteI gave the scriptural passage already. It says that God is Spirit. That is His substance. You are keeping to your malformed understanding and adding to it the fact that human flesh will one day be glorified and become like Jesus' glorified flesh body. We will be exactly like He is. The Father remains as He always has been, and so does Holy Spirit.

You gave a verse that says only in essence, God Spirit. That is a far cry from your claim that God's essence is ONLY spirit. Nowhere is that found in the Bible. Where is it written that the Father has only a spiritual body? Simply saying that He is Spirit does not cut it. Mormons believe this too.

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He is the great deceiver and the author of it all, that angel of light that appeared to the apostate and beguiled Joseph Smith.

Right, the devil came to Joseph Smith and founded a church that stresses the importance of living a moral life and accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, while constantly warning against Satan. This doesn't exactly sound like the devil's M.O.

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Nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? I've challenged you to show me where the Bible defines the Trinity as currently understood. You cannot do it because it's not in there. The Bible never claims that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal and co-substantial. That is the current mode of Trinitarian thinking and it is a byproduct of Man, not to be found in any of the holy scriptures.

Likewise, I have already given you several examples of Orthodox first and second century Christians who held to the LDS position regarding the nature of God. (Eusebius, Justin Martyr, etc.)

QuoteNothing is damaging to my claim. Jesus placed Himself as submissive to the Father temporarily---as I said. His greatness and equality with Him is not in question.

And where in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ "temporarily" made himself subordinate to the Father? Never mind the fact that if they are both of one substance, as Trinitarians believe, it would be impossible to make one part of himself subordinate to the other.

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Jesus chose to allow the Father to have such knowledge about the end, but Jesus has that knowledge well in hand now.

Scriptural support for this? Where is it written that Jesus "allowed," the Father to have such knowledge. And why would Jesus NOT permit himself to have it also? What purpose would that serve? The only thing that makes sense is that the plan of salvation proceeded from the Father, as Christ said, and that Christ himself was not permitted to because it was the will of His father, who is greater than He.

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As for His appearance to Mary Magdalene, what are you saying---that Jesus the man shouldn't recognize the Father as God all of a sudden?

If the Father and Son are both God as you understand it, then no. If the Father is God to the Son, that immediately eliminates the idea of being co-equal. That's what the word God means. Jesus was supposedly fully God as well. If He is God, how then could he also have a god unless he were subordinate?

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You have become lulled into sleep by the enemy. Being disobedient and accepting other revelations and false prophets leads to spiritual weakness and death:

Nope.

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I needn't have had to have been there. Experiencing God is not what you have experienced. You do not have full and perfect knowledge of the Truth. That is a lie of the enemy you are choosing to believe, and a prideful boast, because NO ONE person has full and perfect knowledge of the Truth. We who know Jesus Christ are all at different levels of sanctification, and maturity.

Except it was God. I know this. It matters not what you say because I have it on pretty good authority that you are wrong. The Spirit of God was ever present during our conversion, and remains strong as I diligently strive to live a Christian life.

I also never said that I have a full and perfect knowledge of all truth, only that my belief in the LDS church is such that I no longer question or doubt because I know, for the Spirit has given me this testimony.

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Now your error is condensing into solid patches.

Nope, just stating simple fact.

QuoteMore solid evidence of error. I am a member of the royal priesthood of God. I don't think you know the word very well. That is the problem with those who compromise God's holy word by accepting a man's delusional words that are touted as equal with God's holy word!

You don't understand what Peter meant by "royal priesthood." He was making reference to the Old Testament, whereby the people would be "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." He is not espousing a Priesthood of all believers, an erroneous doctrine of Martin Luther he used to justify his split with Rome.

Jesus Christ said to his apostles that he 'chose and ordained' them. Not that they had power merely by believing in His name. In fact, Christ also said that not everyone who says they are a follower of his, even if they profess to prophecy in his name and cast out devils are actually chosen of him. The Priesthood of all believers flies in the face of everything the Bible says. And to assume this authority upon yourself is a most grave error that Christ warns us about.

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God help you.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I stand by my statement. You do not have the power of the Holy Ghost, which comes only by the laying on of hands by authorized servants of Christ. And those servants came be found only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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I reject him and please the Lord Jesus Christ in doing so.

Keep in mind the fates of those who reject God's chosen prophets. I can do nothing but voice my testimony of the validity of his prophetic calling. I would not recommend rejecting him or any of his successors.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Sun Mar 10, 2013 - 08:31:43

QuoteNope, never did that.

Yes you do. You defined a cult as being exclusive (the only ones who have salvation) By being authoritarian (demanding obedience) and by withholding some teachings. Jesus did all of these things. Does the Bible not teach that Jesus is the way, the only means of salvation? That there is no name given that can redeem mankind save Christ alone? Exclusivity. Are we not told to have complete faith and obedience in both the Father and Son, and likewise were not the ancient Jews subject to the words of the Prophets as delivered by God? Authoritarian. And didn't Jesus teach in parables to hide certain divine truths from the people? Remember when Christ took his disciples away from the crowd and said this, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted." Some of Christ's followers were granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, and others were not. Secretive.

So, you make Jesus out to be a cultist.

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Quote from: Lively StoneNot. you need to discern the difference between cultural and cultish. I've done that. Your turn.

I'm not concerned with such a distinction. You're original claim was that it was cultish because it was not in the Bible. Neither are purity rings, therefore, you'd think those are cultish also. What you're doing now is changing your own definition by making a distinction between culture and cult. Your argument fails because you use your own definition of cult as proof that we are  one. That's a textbook example of circular reasoning.

You need to make the distinction! You are dodging.

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Quote from: Lively StoneLOL! "Instructed" is the byword, here. Who gave the instruction?

God did, but that's not my point. You scoffed at the idea of sacred clothing, believing that too is the sign of a cult. I merely pointed out that there is clear biblical precedence for this.

No longer applicable in this New Covenant age. What you practice is simply religiosity at its worst.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneTemple life no longer exists. Making your activities secret and sacred is the telling point that it is not cultural but cultish--and not required by God in serving Him.

They're not secret. They're sacred. We will not withhold anything from those who honestly wish to partake. The Temple is open to all who are willing to obey the will of God.

Yeah, right.    A Mormon cannot even enter the temple until one is considered worthy. Non-Mormons are not allowed.

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Quote from: Lively StoneYou reject a lot of things that ARE biblical. How can you expect anyone to believe that you know what you are talking about, scripturally?

I haven't rejected anything biblical. My understanding is different than yours is all. Now I may not be a Bible scholar, but I think I've done an adequate job of showing that I am at least passingly familiar with the Scriptures.

You do reject many biblical truths in favour of your own. Familiarity with scripture means nothing compared with knowing Jesus Christ and His truth. Even the devil knows scripture, and he enjoys twisting it so that the unlearned and learned alike may succumb to his treacly lies.

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Quote from: Lively StoneTypical. You want to use that one verse to excuse the Mormon's acceptance of another gospel dictated by a demon spirit to a wayward man?

Mormons don't preach another gospel, but that's beside the point. My attempt was to illustrate that Jesus did far more than what is recorded in the Bible. What transpired, I don't know. I'm not saying he instituted modern day temple rituals to his disciples, nor do I believe that's what this was talking about. I aimed to show only that the Bible does not have a complete record of everything Christ said or did.

You've been lulled to sleep by the enemy's lies. The gospel message has been tampered with in Mormonism.
The gospel of Mormonism requires good works. It teaches that righteousness and eternal life are obtained only by keeping the entire law of God. Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus provided for the resurrection of all people. It did not pay the full price for salvation. Therefore, Mormons must rely upon their own good works to obtain eternal life. The Mormon gospel also teaches that the sacrificial blood of Jesus is not sufficient to cover some sins. In some cases, the sinner must add his own blood to that of Jesus to atone for the sin.

It's the satanic freemasonry influence.

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Quote from: Lively StoneThere is NOTHING absent from scripture than ANYONE needs to know! Those countless other things that Jesus did were more of the same miraculous events He did that were recorded. He said nothing new or it would be there for us. You need to trust God!

And how do you know there is nothing absent? The Bible doesn't make that claim ever.

There is NOTHING LACKING in the truth of the word God has given us.

Luke 1:1-4
Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. 2 They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples. 3 Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you, most honorable Theophilus, 4 so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught.

1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

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Quote from: Lively Stone
The first thing to remember is that one must know what is sacred and what isn't. Clearly, the Mormon needs instruction in that area. The truth is not to be kept under wraps.

There's nothing to say to this if you insist on believing that these things aren't sacred. Of course you're going to hold such a view if you reject the church. I don't, however and see nothing in the Bible that forbids cherishing the sacred.

I don't reject the church of Jesus Christ, but I do reject the facsimile you belong to and the things made up out of the minds of wayward men who say they are sacred.

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Quote from: Lively StoneBeing wise and keeping one's lips shut is one thing, but keeping things shrouded in mystery and secrecy is not of God. It's a Satanic game. It is not unlike the Satanic cult of Freemasonry which your Joseph Smith was a member of.

We don't keep things shrouded in mystery and secrecy. Again, the Temple is available to all, as well as its moving symbolism.

I'm also unaware of the Freemasons being Satanic.

Sure you have secrecy, and yes, Freemasonry is rooted in the Satanic. As your precious Joseph Smith was a Freemason, we can know that he was deluded from the very outset. God wouldn't be using a man like that to further His kingdom...but Satan surely would.

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Quote from: Lively StoneI gave the scriptural passage already. It says that God is Spirit. That is His substance. You are keeping to your malformed understanding and adding to it the fact that human flesh will one day be glorified and become like Jesus' glorified flesh body. We will be exactly like He is. The Father remains as He always has been, and so does Holy Spirit.

You gave a verse that says only in essence, God Spirit. That is a far cry from your claim that God's essence is ONLY spirit. Nowhere is that found in the Bible. Where is it written that the Father has only a spiritual body? Simply saying that He is Spirit does not cut it. Mormons believe this too.

God is Spirit. Period. You need nothing else. You have no biblical proof that God is anything but.

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Quote from: Lively StoneHe is the great deceiver and the author of it all, that angel of light that appeared to the apostate and beguiled Joseph Smith.

Right, the devil came to Joseph Smith and founded a church that stresses the importance of living a moral life and accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, while constantly warning against Satan. This doesn't exactly sound like the devil's M.O.

Yes, he did. He has seen to it that he has perverted who Jesus is. That way, Mormons believe they are worshiping Jesus Christ, but it isn't Jesus at all--you worship a false Jesus. Mormons believe insidious lies about Him. They alter the truth about who He is, where He was born (they deny the word of God and teach he was born in Jerusalem), teach that He was married to more than one woman, that He is the brother of Lucifer, and that He had a mother.

BEWARE, PEOPLE!

2 Corinthians 11:4
You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves.

Matthew 7:22-23
On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

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Quote from: Lively StoneNonsense.

Why is it nonsense? I've challenged you to show me where the Bible defines the Trinity as currently understood. You cannot do it because it's not in there. The Bible never claims that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal and co-substantial. That is the current mode of Trinitarian thinking and it is a byproduct of Man, not to be found in any of the holy scriptures.

Likewise, I have already given you several examples of Orthodox first and second century Christians who held to the LDS position regarding the nature of God. (Eusebius, Justin Martyr, etc.)

I go by the word! No one who knows Jesus Christ personally holds to any LDS position.

God has revealed Himself as three literally at the baptism of Jesus! That is enough for me!

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Quote from: Lively StoneNothing is damaging to my claim. Jesus placed Himself as submissive to the Father temporarily---as I said. His greatness and equality with Him is not in question.

And where in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ "temporarily" made himself subordinate to the Father? Never mind the fact that if they are both of one substance, as Trinitarians believe, it would be impossible to make one part of himself subordinate to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:24
After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power.

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Quote from: Lively StoneJesus chose to allow the Father to have such knowledge about the end, but Jesus has that knowledge well in hand now.

Scriptural support for this? Where is it written that Jesus "allowed," the Father to have such knowledge. And why would Jesus NOT permit himself to have it also? What purpose would that serve? The only thing that makes sense is that the plan of salvation proceeded from the Father, as Christ said, and that Christ himself was not permitted to because it was the will of His father, who is greater than He.

Jesus knows all things, as God. As a man, confined in the flesh and to Earth on His mission, it wasn't required for Him to know the day or hour at which He would return. His business was then and there for that time, to be the Redeemer.

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Quote from: Lively StoneAs for His appearance to Mary Magdalene, what are you saying---that Jesus the man shouldn't recognize the Father as God all of a sudden?

If the Father and Son are both God as you understand it, then no. If the Father is God to the Son, that immediately eliminates the idea of being co-equal. That's what the word God means. Jesus was supposedly fully God as well. If He is God, how then could he also have a god unless he were subordinate?

Nonsense!

There's nothing 'odd' about Jesus the Messiah calling God 'God' at all. Not only is it historically and theologically inconceivable that He would deny that, we also have passages where God (within the literary structure, and not just through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) calls Jesus "God", too:

Philippians 2:6-11
6 Though he was God,
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
    he took the humble position of a slave
    and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8     he humbled himself in obedience to God
    and died a criminal's death on a cross.

9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
    and gave him the name above all other names,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 1:8
But to the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
    You rule with a scepter of justice.

Jesus regularly refers to His Father as "God" before His followers and His audiences---this is no big deal.

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Quote from: Lively StoneYou have become lulled into sleep by the enemy. Being disobedient and accepting other revelations and false prophets leads to spiritual weakness and death:

Nope.

Indeed it does. Anaesthetized is more the effect.

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Quote from: Lively StoneI needn't have had to have been there. Experiencing God is not what you have experienced. You do not have full and perfect knowledge of the Truth. That is a lie of the enemy you are choosing to believe, and a prideful boast, because NO ONE person has full and perfect knowledge of the Truth. We who know Jesus Christ are all at different levels of sanctification, and maturity.

Except it was God. I know this. It matters not what you say because I have it on pretty good authority that you are wrong. The Spirit of God was ever present during our conversion, and remains strong as I diligently strive to live a Christian life.

Your understanding of our authority is skewed. It is not that of Jesus Christ and His word, because you believe in another Jesus and adulterated as well as OTHER false scriptures.

Striving (to live a Christian life) is a notorious aspect of Mormonism. That is because they do not have the power of Holy Spirit to live for Christ without striving.

QuoteI also never said that I have a full and perfect knowledge of all truth, only that my belief in the LDS church is such that I no longer question or doubt because I know, for the Spirit has given me this testimony.

That is not the idea you have conveyed.

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Quote from: Lively StoneNow your error is condensing into solid patches.

Nope, just stating simple fact.

Solid clumps of error.

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Quote from: Lively StoneMore solid evidence of error. I am a member of the royal priesthood of God. I don't think you know the word very well. That is the problem with those who compromise God's holy word by accepting a man's delusional words that are touted as equal with God's holy word!

You don't understand what Peter meant by "royal priesthood." He was making reference to the Old Testament, whereby the people would be "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." He is not espousing a Priesthood of all believers, an erroneous doctrine of Martin Luther he used to justify his split with Rome.

Jesus Christ said to his apostles that he 'chose and ordained' them. Not that they had power merely by believing in His name. In fact, Christ also said that not everyone who says they are a follower of his, even if they profess to prophecy in his name and cast out devils are actually chosen of him. The Priesthood of all believers flies in the face of everything the Bible says. And to assume this authority upon yourself is a most grave error that Christ warns us about.

This is something that you cannot speak knowledgeably about. You are completely wrong in all aspects of this subject matter. Every single believer in Jesus Christ (the real Jesus Christ) has every spiritual blessing and promise that Jesus has, as well as every authority He has, because we are His joint-heirs, brothers by adoption into the Family of God. Whatever belongs to Jesus is mine also.

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Quote from: Lively StoneGod help you.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I stand by my statement. You do not have the power of the Holy Ghost, which comes only by the laying on of hands by authorized servants of Christ. And those servants came be found only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I have the power of Holy Spirit coursing through me as a Spirit-filled believer in Jesus Christ. The same power that raised Jesus from the grave lives within me. Such is the miraculously wonderful and joyous thing we have in Christ! The LDS has no clue about it.

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Quote from: Lovely StoneI reject Joseph Smith and please the Lord Jesus Christ in doing so.

Keep in mind the fates of those who reject God's chosen prophets. I can do nothing but voice my testimony of the validity of his prophetic calling. I would not recommend rejecting him or any of his successors.

Keep in mind the fate that awaits those who follow false prophets!

God says He will destroy the false prophet, but He will also punish those who follow the false prophets!

Isaiah 9:14-16
Therefore, in a single day the Lord will destroy both the head and the tail,
    the noble palm branch and the lowly reed.
15 The leaders of Israel are the head,
    and the lying prophets are the tail.
16 For the leaders of the people have misled them.
    They have led them down the path of destruction.

Ezekiel 14:10
False prophets and those who seek their guidance will all be punished for their sins.

Matthew 15:14
so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch."

Luke 6:39
Then Jesus gave the following illustration: "Can one blind person lead another? Won't they both fall into a ditch?

We have see in scripture the fate of false prophets, and we can see that the fate of those who follow false prophets will be the same. These people are also lost. A good reason for judging false prophesy is that the spiritual eyes of those who are deceived may be opened, that they also may turn from the error of their ways.  Most false prophets do not know that they are false, because they are deceived, so if their falseness can be exposed, there is the possibility that they will repent and get right with God:

James 5:19-20
My dear brothers and sisters, if someone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back, 20 you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.


As long as you are still breathing, there is time to repent.

QuoteSo, you make Jesus out to be a cultist.

No. YOU did. I just illustrated the point I made in my opening post, that is, any attempt to label us as a cult unwittingly labels Christianity one as well. You made up your own definition, even and unfortunately for you, if you truly believe exclusivity, secrecy and authority constitutes a cult, then you must begrudgingly accept Jesus Christ as a cult leader.

I don't do that, and I wouldn't define a cult as such.

QuoteYou need to make the distinction! You are dodging.

I'm not dodging. I'm simply not entertaining that portion of the argument since it is irrelevant to what we're speaking about. You initially claimed that any religious practice not found in the Bible is cultish. When I showed you two prominent ones found in Protestant circles, you changed your argument and said that since they are cultural it's okay. It's up to you to defend your initial statement and to explain away your double standard.

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No longer applicable in this New Covenant age. What you practice is simply religiosity at its worst.

And when did this New Covenant age commence? Immediately after Christ? If so, then you need to explain why there are many accounts of the apostles worshiping in the temple found in the Book of Acts. While Paul was praying in the temple, he was given a vision in a trance (Acts 22:17). The Lord then appears to him in the temple in the very next verse. Clearly the apostles didn't stop worshiping in temples upon the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ.

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Yeah, right.    A Mormon cannot even enter the temple until one is considered worthy. Non-Mormons are not allowed.

But not because they're secret, but sacred. The Temple is the House of the Lord and we are expected to live a life worthy to be in His presence. If someone had a no smoking policy for his home and refused to let people smoke in there, would that be evidence that he is being secretive? Or is it illustrative that there are certain standards that must be kept to be allowed entrance? It's a similar concept here. To claim that they are "secret," would mean that we intentionally keep them from others. And if you knew anything about our missionary endeavors, you'd know that it is the church's desire that everyone everywhere would partake of the blessing afforded by the temple.

Quote
You do reject many biblical truths in favour of your own. Familiarity with scripture means nothing compared with knowing Jesus Christ and His truth. Even the devil knows scripture, and he enjoys twisting it so that the unlearned and learned alike may succumb to his treacly lies.

Correct, but whose understanding has been twisted by Satan? It wasn't mine so...

Quote
You've been lulled to sleep by the enemy's lies. The gospel message has been tampered with in Mormonism.
The gospel of Mormonism requires good works. It teaches that righteousness and eternal life are obtained only by keeping the entire law of God. Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus provided for the resurrection of all people. It did not pay the full price for salvation. Therefore, Mormons must rely upon their own good works to obtain eternal life. The Mormon gospel also teaches that the sacrificial blood of Jesus is not sufficient to cover some sins. In some cases, the sinner must add his own blood to that of Jesus to atone for the sin.

Patently false. We don't believe this. We don't in any way believe our works can justify us. We all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. We need a savior or else we'd be utterly lost. What you just stated is a common misunderstanding promulgated by those who are antagonistic to the church.

QuoteThere is NOTHING LACKING in the truth of the word God has given us.

That's true. Unfortunately, you reject most of what God has revealed in favor of a man-made doctrine of Biblical exclusivity.

QuoteGod wouldn't be using a man like that to further His kingdom

Sure, God wouldn't use a man with flaws...because being a free mason is far worse than  murderers, adulterers and persecutors in the Bible he used to further His goals, right?

Quote
God is Spirit. Period. You need nothing else. You have no biblical proof that God is anything but.

Simply repeating your statement doesn't make it any more cogent. You have not shown any evidence that God's essence is only spirit. You cite only one instance that is accurately rendered "God Spirit." Where in these two words do you derive that God only has a spirit body and is merely of spiritual essence?

QuoteYes, he did. He has seen to it that he has perverted who Jesus is. That way, Mormons believe they are worshiping Jesus Christ, but it isn't Jesus at all--you worship a false Jesus. Mormons believe insidious lies about Him. They alter the truth about who He is, where He was born (they deny the word of God and teach he was born in Jerusalem), teach that He was married to more than one woman, that He is the brother of Lucifer, and that He had a mother

.

Clearly you don't understand LDS doctrine. Mormons believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem. the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon makes a passing reference to him being born in "the LAND of Jerusalem," and this is true. The land of Jerusalem is not the same thing as the city of Jerusalem. Bethlehem is a mere five miles south of Jerusalem. This would definitely constitute being in the land of Jerusalem, especially coming from the prophet Alma, living on the other side of the world. Even locals considered the city of Hebron to be in the land of Jerusalem and that's another 25 miles away.

The LDS also do not, I repeat DO NOT teach that Jesus Christ was married, much less to many women. I've already touched on the relationship between Jesus and Satan, that they are not peers or equals, nor is it taught that they are brothers in any sense other than that God the Father can be rightly called Father to both.

QuoteI go by the word! No one who knows Jesus Christ personally holds to any LDS position.

Except the writers of the Bible and the first and second century Christians, you mean?

QuoteGod has revealed Himself as three literally at the baptism of Jesus! That is enough for me!

...which doesn't prove the Trinitarian viewpoint of God at all. This shows only that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct individuals. It says nothing of them being one God, Co-eternal, Co-substantial and Co-equal. The LDS don't dispute this example and it in no way conflicts with our doctrine.

QuoteAfter that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power

This says nothing of Jesus temporarily making himself subordinate to the Father during his mortal sojourn. In fact, it implies heavily that the Father is and always will be greater than he is. Paul is speaking about the resurrection and the end of the world, Christ's second coming. And it states explicitly that Christ will hand over everything to the Father, who put everything below the son, and that the Son will then become subject to God the Father, who put everything below him as well. So we see here that Jesus Christ will reign until he stomps out all evil. Then He will hand over everything to God the Father and become subject to him as well. This isn't speaking about mortality anymore. This is speaking about the eternities. After the world ends, Christ, an immortal and glorified being will become subject to his father. This proves my point that they are not equal, while doing nothing to support your claim that Christ "temporarily" made himself less.

QuoteJesus knows all things, as God. As a man, confined in the flesh and to Earth on His mission, it wasn't required for Him to know the day or hour at which He would return. His business was then and there for that time, to be the Redeemer.

Yes, I know this is your position, but where does the Bible SAY this? Where is it written that it wasn't required of him?

QuoteNonsense!

There's nothing 'odd' about Jesus the Messiah calling God 'God' at all. Not only is it historically and theologically inconceivable that He would deny that, we also have passages where God (within the literary structure, and not just through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) calls Jesus "God", too:

But it doesn't make sense. If Jesus is God and is equal with the Father, why then would he call the Father HIS God? He wasn't speaking broadly about the Father being God, he was speaking personally and intimately of the Father being HIS God. This denotes that the Son is less than the father...his god. How can God himself have a god?

QuoteStriving (to live a Christian life) is a notorious aspect of Mormonism. That is because they do not have the power of Holy Spirit to live for Christ without striving

So you don't believe in living a good, moral Christian life? I'm really confused here. Aren't we told to keep the commandments if we love Christ? Aren't we told to be perfect, to endure to the end? Seriously, I don't know why you'd object to Mormons trying to live good, Christ-centered lives. I thought all Christians did this.

QuoteThat is not the idea you have conveyed.

If so, then it was my error. I would never presume to have a knowledge of all there is as pertaining to God. I'm not that conceded.

Quote
This is something that you cannot speak knowledgeably about. You are completely wrong in all aspects of this subject matter. Every single believer in Jesus Christ (the real Jesus Christ) has every spiritual blessing and promise that Jesus has, as well as every authority He has, because we are His joint-heirs, brothers by adoption into the Family of God. Whatever belongs to Jesus is mine also

Every true believer (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) do have all of the blessing associated with the Holy Ghost. But the Bible is clear on this, no man can assume to act for God. He must be called of God and ordained. God's house is a house of order. If everyone assumed such authority to conduct the affairs of the church, where would the order be? The authority of the Holy Priesthood doesn't come simply because you want it or because you claim to be a follower of Christ. In fact Jesus Christ specifically states that merely being one of his disciples does not make him authorized to administer in the Kingdom. The idea of a priesthood of all believers is a nice, cozy idea, unfortunately, Peter was not espousing such an ideal, nor is this doctrine to be found any earlier than the Protestant reformation. And even then it was used by Martin Luther to try to discredit the Roman Catholic Church. This is a man-made doctrine from Luther that didn't even exist until 1520.

QuoteI have the power of Holy Spirit coursing through me as a Spirit-filled believer in Jesus Christ. The same power that raised Jesus from the grave lives within me. Such is the miraculously wonderful and joyous thing we have in Christ! The LDS has no clue about it.

On the contrary. ONLY the LDS know something about it as the gift of the Holy Ghost is only given by those who are authorized to do so, as explained in the Bible. You may have an occasional glimmer of inspiration from the spirit, but unless authorized holders of God's Holy Priesthood, acting under those who hold the proper priesthood keys, lay their hands upon you and bestow this blessing, you do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

QuoteKeep in mind the fate that awaits those who follow false prophets!

God says He will destroy the false prophet, but He will also punish those who follow the false prophets!

Then it's a good thing I'm not following false prophets.

QuoteAs long as you are still breathing, there is time to repent.

Indeed, I believe you ought to take this advice.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Mar 12, 2013 - 09:12:16

QuoteSo, you make Jesus out to be a cultist.

No. YOU did. I just illustrated the point I made in my opening post, that is, any attempt to label us as a cult unwittingly labels Christianity one as well. You made up your own definition, even and unfortunately for you, if you truly believe exclusivity, secrecy and authority constitutes a cult, then you must begrudgingly accept Jesus Christ as a cult leader.

I don't do that, and I wouldn't define a cult as such.

You uphold what constitutes a cult and claim Jesus is all for it.

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Quote from: Lively StoneYou need to make the distinction! You are dodging.

I'm not dodging. I'm simply not entertaining that portion of the argument since it is irrelevant to what we're speaking about. You initially claimed that any religious practice not found in the Bible is cultish. When I showed you two prominent ones found in Protestant circles, you changed your argument and said that since they are cultural it's okay. It's up to you to defend your initial statement and to explain away your double standard.

What you claim the Church does is biblical. What the Mormon religion claims is cultish because it defies God's word from the very outset, based on a lie originating from the deceived Joseph Smith---not Jesus Christ.

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Quote from: Lively Stone
No longer applicable in this New Covenant age. What you practice is simply religiosity at its worst.

And when did this New Covenant age commence? Immediately after Christ? If so, then you need to explain why there are many accounts of the apostles worshiping in the temple found in the Book of Acts. While Paul was praying in the temple, he was given a vision in a trance (Acts 22:17). The Lord then appears to him in the temple in the very next verse. Clearly the apostles didn't stop worshiping in temples upon the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ.

Christian Jews were free to worship God in the Temple! Jesus didn't come to crush Judaism.

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Quote from: Lively StoneYeah, right.    A Mormon cannot even enter the temple until one is considered worthy. Non-Mormons are not allowed.

But not because they're secret, but sacred. The Temple is the House of the Lord and we are expected to live a life worthy to be in His presence. If someone had a no smoking policy for his home and refused to let people smoke in there, would that be evidence that he is being secretive? Or is it illustrative that there are certain standards that must be kept to be allowed entrance? It's a similar concept here. To claim that they are "secret," would mean that we intentionally keep them from others. And if you knew anything about our missionary endeavors, you'd know that it is the church's desire that everyone everywhere would partake of the blessing afforded by the temple.

That is:
1. cultish
2. elitist

The house of God is open to all---sinners included.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYou do reject many biblical truths in favour of your own. Familiarity with scripture means nothing compared with knowing Jesus Christ and His truth. Even the devil knows scripture, and he enjoys twisting it so that the unlearned and learned alike may succumb to his treacly lies.

Correct, but whose understanding has been twisted by Satan? It wasn't mine so...

Joseph Smith was deceived first hand by a demonic spirit, if not Satan himself. It goes from there.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYou've been lulled to sleep by the enemy's lies. The gospel message has been tampered with in Mormonism.

The gospel of Mormonism requires good works. It teaches that righteousness and eternal life are obtained only by keeping the entire law of God. Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus provided for the resurrection of all people. It did not pay the full price for salvation. Therefore, Mormons must rely upon their own good works to obtain eternal life. The Mormon gospel also teaches that the sacrificial blood of Jesus is not sufficient to cover some sins. In some cases, the sinner must add his own blood to that of Jesus to atone for the sin.

Patently false. We don't believe this. We don't in any way believe our works can justify us. We all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. We need a savior or else we'd be utterly lost. What you just stated is a common misunderstanding promulgated by those who are antagonistic to the church.

I don't believe that. There is a heavy weight of performance laid on the backs of Mormons.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneThere is NOTHING LACKING in the truth of the word God has given us.

That's true. Unfortunately, you reject most of what God has revealed in favor of a man-made doctrine of Biblical exclusivity.

That is a lie right there. We have all we need in His given word, and reject only anything that any one claims is a new revelation of Jesus Christ because we know we have His complete revelation already.

False prophets and wolves are those who promote further revelation. Pretty easy to detect, actually.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneGod wouldn't be using a man like that to further His kingdom

Sure, God wouldn't use a man with flaws...because being a free mason is far worse than  murderers, adulterers and persecutors in the Bible he used to further His goals, right?

God wouldn't use a man who is not a believer in the first place. Freemasonry is most likely the very place that Joseph Smith received his delusion. It is a Satanic cult also.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneGod is Spirit. Period. You need nothing else. You have no biblical proof that God is anything but.

Simply repeating your statement doesn't make it any more cogent. You have not shown any evidence that God's essence is only spirit. You cite only one instance that is accurately rendered "God Spirit." Where in these two words do you derive that God only has a spirit body and is merely of spiritual essence?

You need to provide scripture that shows that God has physicality apart from the Messiah.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneYes, he did. He has seen to it that he has perverted who Jesus is. That way, Mormons believe they are worshiping Jesus Christ, but it isn't Jesus at all--you worship a false Jesus. Mormons believe insidious lies about Him. They alter the truth about who He is, where He was born (they deny the word of God and teach he was born in Jerusalem), teach that He was married to more than one woman, that He is the brother of Lucifer, and that He had a mother

.

Clearly you don't understand LDS doctrine. Mormons believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem. the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon makes a passing reference to him being born in "the LAND of Jerusalem," and this is true. The land of Jerusalem is not the same thing as the city of Jerusalem. Bethlehem is a mere five miles south of Jerusalem. This would definitely constitute being in the land of Jerusalem, especially coming from the prophet Alma, living on the other side of the world. Even locals considered the city of Hebron to be in the land of Jerusalem and that's another 25 miles away.

The LDS also do not, I repeat DO NOT teach that Jesus Christ was married, much less to many women. I've already touched on the relationship between Jesus and Satan, that they are not peers or equals, nor is it taught that they are brothers in any sense other than that God the Father can be rightly called Father to both.

I am glad you refute those things, but why on earth change what has already been given by God about Jesus' birthplace?

As for Jesus' marital status, Brigham Young himself had this to say:

    "The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with "HIS TRAIN; I do not know who they were, unless his wives and children;" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13. page 309)

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneI go by the word! No one who knows Jesus Christ personally holds to any LDS position.

Except the writers of the Bible and the first and second century Christians, you mean?

No, no one who knows Jesus Christ personally holds to any LDS position.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneGod has revealed Himself as three literally at the baptism of Jesus! That is enough for me!

...which doesn't prove the Trinitarian viewpoint of God at all. This shows only that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct individuals. It says nothing of them being one God, Co-eternal, Co-substantial and Co-equal. The LDS don't dispute this example and it in no way conflicts with our doctrine.

Yes, God is revealed as three distinct persons.

Quote

Quote from: Living StoneAfter that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power

This says nothing of Jesus temporarily making himself subordinate to the Father during his mortal sojourn. In fact, it implies heavily that the Father is and always will be greater than he is. Paul is speaking about the resurrection and the end of the world, Christ's second coming. And it states explicitly that Christ will hand over everything to the Father, who put everything below the son, and that the Son will then become subject to God the Father, who put everything below him as well. So we see here that Jesus Christ will reign until he stomps out all evil. Then He will hand over everything to God the Father and become subject to him as well. This isn't speaking about mortality anymore. This is speaking about the eternities. After the world ends, Christ, an immortal and glorified being will become subject to his father. This proves my point that they are not equal, while doing nothing to support your claim that Christ "temporarily" made himself less.

Both Jesus the Son and God the Father and Holy Spirit are equal in power and authority.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneJesus knows all things, as God. As a man, confined in the flesh and to Earth on His mission, it wasn't required for Him to know the day or hour at which He would return. His business was then and there for that time, to be the Redeemer.

Yes, I know this is your position, but where does the Bible SAY this? Where is it written that it wasn't required of him?

Jesus Himself said that the Father knows the time of His return, yet He Himself did not. It was not required of Him to know. He knows now, as the glorified Son, sitting at the right hand of the Father.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneNonsense!

There's nothing 'odd' about Jesus the Messiah calling God 'God' at all. Not only is it historically and theologically inconceivable that He would deny that, we also have passages where God (within the literary structure, and not just through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) calls Jesus "God", too:

But it doesn't make sense. If Jesus is God and is equal with the Father, why then would he call the Father HIS God? He wasn't speaking broadly about the Father being God, he was speaking personally and intimately of the Father being HIS God. This denotes that the Son is less than the father...his god. How can God himself have a god?

It may not make sense to the fleshly mind of man, but it is the truth nonetheless, and must be accepted by faith. I don't have any problem with Jesus declaring the Father to be His God---He was speaking as a flesh man, as our example. As a flesh and blood man, He was a creature a little lower than the angelic realm, just as we are---temporarily.

Hebrews 2:9
What we do see is Jesus, who was given a position "a little lower than the angels"; and because he suffered death for us, he is now "crowned with glory and honor." Yes, by God's grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone.


You really need to get into the true word of God.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneStriving (to live a Christian life) is a notorious aspect of Mormonism. That is because they do not have the power of Holy Spirit to live for Christ without striving

So you don't believe in living a good, moral Christian life? I'm really confused here. Aren't we told to keep the commandments if we love Christ? Aren't we told to be perfect, to endure to the end? Seriously, I don't know why you'd object to Mormons trying to live good, Christ-centered lives. I thought all Christians did this.

Walking in the Spirit equates with moral uprightness. Without Holy Spirit living in and through us, we will never be able to walk in righteousness, but will always be striving to reach some benchmark of goodness.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneThis is something that you cannot speak knowledgeably about. You are completely wrong in all aspects of this subject matter. Every single believer in Jesus Christ (the real Jesus Christ) has every spiritual blessing and promise that Jesus has, as well as every authority He has, because we are His joint-heirs, brothers by adoption into the Family of God. Whatever belongs to Jesus is mine also

Every true believer (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) do have all of the blessing associated with the Holy Ghost. But the Bible is clear on this, no man can assume to act for God. He must be called of God and ordained. God's house is a house of order. If everyone assumed such authority to conduct the affairs of the church, where would the order be? The authority of the Holy Priesthood doesn't come simply because you want it or because you claim to be a follower of Christ. In fact Jesus Christ specifically states that merely being one of his disciples does not make him authorized to administer in the Kingdom. The idea of a priesthood of all believers is a nice, cozy idea, unfortunately, Peter was not espousing such an ideal, nor is this doctrine to be found any earlier than the Protestant reformation. And even then it was used by Martin Luther to try to discredit the Roman Catholic Church. This is a man-made doctrine from Luther that didn't even exist until 1520.

Nonsense. Jesus Christ is busy building His Church and His Spirit is busy anointing His followers to do the work of the Church. There is no organizational chart, or body that ordains men and women---or children for that matter---to do the works of Christ.

God calls, and He equips those He calls. Every person who receives salvation in Jesus Christ receives certain gifts and abilities with which to serve God with power and success. It is not a Church function.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneI have the power of Holy Spirit coursing through me as a Spirit-filled believer in Jesus Christ. The same power that raised Jesus from the grave lives within me. Such is the miraculously wonderful and joyous thing we have in Christ! The LDS has no clue about it.

On the contrary. ONLY the LDS know something about it as the gift of the Holy Ghost is only given by those who are authorized to do so, as explained in the Bible. You may have an occasional glimmer of inspiration from the spirit, but unless authorized holders of God's Holy Priesthood, acting under those who hold the proper priesthood keys, lay their hands upon you and bestow this blessing, you do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is a complete fabrication of the LDS religion. You are steeped and mired in a false religion and not in the truth of God's word, and are now trying to pass off lies of the Mormon religion to those of us here who know the word of God. It's rather laughable.

As a child of the King, I am a member of the royal priesthood. I have more than one gift of the Holy Spirit, and have the right as a believer to lay hands on those who would receive from Him.

Just from your lack of knowledge about the operation of Holy Spirit, I can see that the LDS has blinded you to His truth and Mormonism has been revealed to be false and a snare.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneKeep in mind the fate that awaits those who follow false prophets!

God says He will destroy the false prophet, but He will also punish those who follow the false prophets!

Then it's a good thing I'm not following false prophets.

That is a foolish thing to be saying, seeing as the LDS is founded not only by a false prophet, but by a poor example of a man, to boot.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneAs long as you are still breathing, there is time to repent.

Indeed, I believe you ought to take this advice.

I have done so---50 years ago and each time I fail God, ever since. I have yet to commit the sin of following after a false prophet and embracing a false religion. That is something Holy Spirit will have to deal heavily with you about. It is only then that you will desire to repent. I do pray that it is soon and will not be too late.

QuoteYou uphold what constitutes a cult and claim Jesus is all for it.

No...I took your definition of a cult and showed how Jesus fit. I reject your definition of a cult.

QuoteWhat you claim the Church does is biblical. What the Mormon religion claims is cultish because it defies God's word from the very outset, based on a lie originating from the deceived Joseph Smith---not Jesus Christ.

So purity rings and cross jewelry are biblical?

QuoteChristian Jews were free to worship God in the Temple! Jesus didn't come to crush Judaism.

Ah, so your initial statement that temple worship ceased was incorrect, then.

Quote
That is:
1. cultish
2. elitist

The house of God is open to all---sinners included.

The House of God is open to all who accept His true gospel. Yes, sinners included. Mormons don't expect perfection to enter the temple.

QuoteJoseph Smith was deceived first hand by a demonic spirit, if not Satan himself. It goes from there.

I already commented on this topic in the other thread, the biblical test for spirits. Any spirit who testified that Christ was manifest in the flesh is of God, according to 1st John. And since the angels that appeared to Joseph Smith wholeheartedly testified of this, they were not of Satan.

Quote
I don't believe that. There is a heavy weight of performance laid on the backs of Mormons.

I don't care if you don't believe it. I've been a member for fifteen years; I know our doctrine better than you do. If you'd like, I can give scriptural support from LDS only scriptures to show this. We believe that we will always fall short of perfection, regardless of how hard we try. That's where the atonement comes in; it makes up that which we lack.

QuoteGod wouldn't use a man who is not a believer in the first place. Freemasonry is most likely the very place that Joseph Smith received his delusion. It is a Satanic cult also

Joseph Smith didn't become a freemason until 1842, twelve years after the formal organization of the church and twenty two years after the First Vision.

I would like also evidence that Freemasonry is satanic.

QuoteYou need to provide scripture that shows that God has physicality apart from the Messiah.

The Father has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man's; the Son also D&C 130:22. And the numerous accounts of Biblical prophets who saw God and testified that he was in the likeness of Man.

I'd like to see your evidence to the contrary, though. So far, you've offered only God Spirit as proof, which as I've stated, is hardly conclusive. And when you take into consideration what God being Spirit would have meant to the Jewish people further distances your claim from this verse. Christopher Stead, an instructor ad Cambridge Divinity School (and a non-LDS theologian) stated this, "By saying that God is spiritual, we do not mean that he has no body ... but rather that he is the source of a mysterious life-giving power and energy that animates the human body, and himself possesses this energy in the fullest measure." Hebrews would have understood God being a spirit as being in possession of some kind of life-giving power, and this would be seen as his mode of operation, not as a literal description of his being.

And the great Christian writer Tertullian (one of the early Christians that espoused some LDS views) said this, "For who will deny that God is a body, although 'God is a Spirit?' For Spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form."

QuoteI am glad you refute those things, but why on earth change what has already been given by God about Jesus' birthplace?

Nothing has been changed. Jesus was born in the land of Jerusalem. In fact, this is pretty strong evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. This type of description in relation to a specific place is perfectly in harmony with how the ancient Hebrew people would have understood it.

Quote
As for Jesus' marital status, Brigham Young himself had this to say:

    "The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with "HIS TRAIN; I do not know who they were, unless his wives and children

First off, I'd hardly say that Brigham Young was saying unequivocally that He was married, only that is what he supposes the scriptures are referring to. Secondly, as I've pointed out in other threads, the Journal of Discourses are not official canon and do not represent what the church teaches as authentic doctrine. In other words, we are not bound by them. And lastly, maybe Brigham Young did believe Christ was married. I know lots of Mormons who do. Even I think it's a possibility. But just because some might think so doesn't make it doctrine. The church takes no official position as to whether or not Jesus was married and allows members to make up their mind on that. Even if we did believe this, though, why is it a big deal? Does the Bible specifically say he wasn't married?

QuoteNo, no one who knows Jesus Christ personally holds to any LDS position.

...except biblical prophets, apostles and early Christians.

QuoteYes, God is revealed as three distinct persons.

But that's not what the scene at the baptism says. It says only that Christ came up out of the water, the Holy Ghost descended and the Father spoke from heaven. Where in there does it say that these three are One God, co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal?

Quote

Both Jesus the Son and God the Father and Holy Spirit are equal in power and authority.

Yet even the scriptural verses you use to support your argument say otherwise.

Quote
It may not make sense to the fleshly mind of man, but it is the truth nonetheless, and must be accepted by faith. I don't have any problem with Jesus declaring the Father to be His God---He was speaking as a flesh man, as our example. As a flesh and blood man, He was a creature a little lower than the angelic realm, just as we are---temporarily.

That's an awfully convenient answer. You're saying in essence, if my doctrine doesn't make sense, it's not supposed to be and it's beyond our comprehension.

Quote
Walking in the Spirit equates with moral uprightness. Without Holy Spirit living in and through us, we will never be able to walk in righteousness, but will always be striving to reach some benchmark of goodness.

So essentially you believe the exact same thing we do, that we are to live good lives because we love Christ.

Quote
Nonsense. Jesus Christ is busy building His Church and His Spirit is busy anointing His followers to do the work of the Church. There is no organizational chart, or body that ordains men and women---or children for that matter---to do the works of Christ.

So are you just going to ignore all the New Testament references to being called and ordained? Are you going to dispute what the Bible says about an organization that has prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers, elders, bishops and deacons? These positions were for the edification of the saints until they are unified in faith. And this is something that has clearly not happened. What do you think it meant when Christ called and "ordained" the twelve, or where He gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter? Why is the Bible full of instances where apostles instructed the church, and where other ecclesiastical positions were filled? What did it mean when Paul wrote to Titus when he gave the instruction, :that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee." See, Titus was to set things in order, and ordain elders in the same manner that Paul appointed Titus himself. As Hebrews 5:4 says, "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." This pretty much disrupts your entire argument. You don't get this authority by desiring it, for no man can take this honor upon himself. God must call him, as he did with Aaron.

The idea of a Universal Priesthood is an apostate doctrine that was not in existence until the Protestant reformation.

QuoteThis is a complete fabrication of the LDS religion. You are steeped and mired in a false religion and not in the truth of God's word, and are now trying to pass off lies of the Mormon religion to those of us here who know the word of God. It's rather laughable.

What's laughable about it? The LDS understanding of the gift of the Holy Ghost is entirely biblical. Only those who possess the authority to bestow it may do so, like Ananias did to Paul upon his conversion.

Quote
As a child of the King, I am a member of the royal priesthood. I have more than one gift of the Holy Spirit, and have the right as a believer to lay hands on those who would receive from Him.

Except the Bible does not support a universal priesthood, and that is not what Peter was referring to.

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Just from your lack of knowledge about the operation of Holy Spirit, I can see that the LDS has blinded you to His truth and Mormonism has been revealed to be false and a snare.

And what exactly have I said that is incorrect about the Spirit?

QuoteGod calls, and He equips those He calls. Every person who receives salvation in Jesus Christ receives certain gifts and abilities with which to serve God with power and success. It is not a Church function

.

Yes, certainly. Every individual of Christ's church (LDS) has been given spiritual gifts. But I'm not speaking about that. I'm talking about the authority to act in behalf of God in carrying out the ordinances and function of the church.

QuoteThat is a foolish thing to be saying, seeing as the LDS is founded not only by a false prophet, but by a poor example of a man, to boot

Is his reputation any more disreputable than the prophets of the Bible? Think about that for a minute.

QuoteI have done so---50 years ago and each time I fail God, ever since. I have yet to commit the sin of following after a false prophet and embracing a false religion. That is something Holy Spirit will have to deal heavily with you about. It is only then that you will desire to repent. I do pray that it is soon and will not be too late.

You make it sound like I've never repented before, which I have. I have no reason to repent of my current religious affiliation because God has made it known that I am accepted by Him. And who am I...or you...to disagree with Him or to comment on my relationship with Him?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Mar 12, 2013 - 15:35:50

QuoteYou uphold what constitutes a cult and claim Jesus is all for it.

No...I took your definition of a cult and showed how Jesus fit. I reject your definition of a cult.

Of course you do. It is to your own detriment.

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Quote from: Lively StoneWhat you claim the Church does is biblical. What the Mormon religion claims is cultish because it defies God's word from the very outset, based on a lie originating from the deceived Joseph Smith---not Jesus Christ.

So purity rings and cross jewelry are biblical?

A person who chooses to wear a cross or a purity ring, or a flag pin on their lapel are doing something cultural, not biblical, or cultish. The secret things that the Mormon deems sacred are cultish, and not cultural.

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Quote from: Lively StoneChristian Jews were free to worship God in the Temple! Jesus didn't come to crush Judaism.

Ah, so your initial statement that temple worship ceased was incorrect, then.

No, not incorrect. Christians quite quickly formed local churches, and became separate from the rejecting Judaism. Churches are not the Temple.

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Quote from: Lively Stone
That is:
1. cultish
2. elitist

The house of God is open to all---sinners included.

The House of God is open to all who accept His true gospel. Yes, sinners included. Mormons don't expect perfection to enter the temple.

The house of God is open to all, period. Mormons decree worthiness and membership for entry to their temples.

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Quote from: Lively StoneJoseph Smith was deceived first hand by a demonic spirit, if not Satan himself. It goes from there.

I already commented on this topic in the other thread, the biblical test for spirits. Any spirit who testified that Christ was manifest in the flesh is of God, according to 1st John. And since the angels that appeared to Joseph Smith wholeheartedly testified of this, they were not of Satan.

That is a convenient argument. It is obvious that the lying spirit completely deceived Joseph Smith. The devil himself knows that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. He offers up twisted truth. It is up to the true believer to be on guard for the subtle lies that Satan presents.

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Quote from: Lively StoneI don't believe that. There is a heavy weight of performance laid on the backs of Mormons.

I don't care if you don't believe it. I've been a member for fifteen years; I know our doctrine better than you do. If you'd like, I can give scriptural support from LDS only scriptures to show this. We believe that we will always fall short of perfection, regardless of how hard we try. That's where the atonement comes in; it makes up that which we lack.

Trying hard is the hallmark of Mormonism, among other religions. You need to study up on the atonement---it doesn't make up for what we lack. God's grace through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ does it all for us because we lack everything necessary for righteousness in ourselves.

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Quote from: Lively StoneGod wouldn't use a man who is not a believer in the first place. Freemasonry is most likely the very place that Joseph Smith received his delusion. It is a Satanic cult also

Joseph Smith didn't become a freemason until 1842, twelve years after the formal organization of the church and twenty two years after the First Vision.

Proof enough that he was not led by God.

QuoteI would like also evidence that Freemasonry is satanic.

That would necessitate another thread.

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Quote from: Lively StoneYou need to provide scripture that shows that God has physicality apart from the Messiah.

The Father has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man's; the Son also D&C 130:22. And the numerous accounts of Biblical prophets who saw God and testified that he was in the likeness of Man.

Sorry, but you fail to reveal scripture that proves this. When God revealed Himself as a man to anyone in the OT, He was the pre-incarnate Christ.

QuoteI'd like to see your evidence to the contrary, though. So far, you've offered only God Spirit as proof, which as I've stated, is hardly conclusive. And when you take into consideration what God being Spirit would have meant to the Jewish people further distances your claim from this verse. Christopher Stead, an instructor ad Cambridge Divinity School (and a non-LDS theologian) stated this, "By saying that God is spiritual, we do not mean that he has no body ... but rather that he is the source of a mysterious life-giving power and energy that animates the human body, and himself possesses this energy in the fullest measure." Hebrews would have understood God being a spirit as being in possession of some kind of life-giving power, and this would be seen as his mode of operation, not as a literal description of his being.

And the great Christian writer Tertullian (one of the early Christians that espoused some LDS views) said this, "For who will deny that God is a body, although 'God is a Spirit?' For Spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form."

Still no scripture... 

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Quote from: Lively StoneI am glad you refute those things, but why on earth change what has already been given by God about Jesus' birthplace?

Nothing has been changed. Jesus was born in the land of Jerusalem. In fact, this is pretty strong evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. This type of description in relation to a specific place is perfectly in harmony with how the ancient Hebrew people would have understood it.

What God has provided in His word is enough. The Book of Mormon reveals nothing of authenticity, because it is a gargantuan fraud.

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Quote from: Lively StoneAs for Jesus' marital status, Brigham Young himself had this to say:

    "The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with "HIS TRAIN; I do not know who they were, unless his wives and children

First off, I'd hardly say that Brigham Young was saying unequivocally that He was married, only that is what he supposes the scriptures are referring to. Secondly, as I've pointed out in other threads, the Journal of Discourses are not official canon and do not represent what the church teaches as authentic doctrine. In other words, we are not bound by them. And lastly, maybe Brigham Young did believe Christ was married. I know lots of Mormons who do. Even I think it's a possibility. But just because some might think so doesn't make it doctrine. The church takes no official position as to whether or not Jesus was married and allows members to make up their mind on that. Even if we did believe this, though, why is it a big deal? Does the Bible specifically say he wasn't married?

Many other Mormon writers declare Jesus married. For anyone to even entertain the idea reveals a weakness for heresy. The "church' doesn't have the voice to receive or reject or to have 'an official position' on anything. Christians, as the Body of Christ, do.

It's a big deal because to teach that Jesus was married is heresy. Here is more of the heretical Mormon belief:

Note what the LDS prophets preached and believed about Jesus Christ:

    Jedediah M. Grant, Second Counselor to Brigham Young the Second Prophet of the LDS Church:

        "Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, the 'grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was because He had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed Him.' After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. . . The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, casing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy,. . .a belief in the doctrine of plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus, and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons' " (Journal of Discourses, Vol 1. ppl 345-346)

    Mormon Apostle Orson Hyde made these statements:

        "It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; . . .no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the least of it."

        "I will venture to say that if Jesus Christ were now to pass thought the most pious countries in Christendom with a train of women, such as used to follow him, . . .he would be mobbed, tarred, and feathered, and rode, not on as ass, but on a rail."

        "At this doctrine the long-faced hypocrite and the sanctimonious bigot will probably cry, blasphemy! . . . Object not, therefore, too strongly against the marriage of Christ." (All the above statements: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 259-260)

        "When Mary of old came to the sepulcher. . .she saw two angels in white. and they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She said unto them, Because they have take away my Lord, OR HUSBAND, and I know not where they have laid him." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, page 210)

    In 1853 the following appeared in the Mormon church paper, the Millennial Star:

        ". . .we apprehend that even greater troubles than these may arise before mankind learn all the particulars of Christ's incarnation-how and by whom he was begotten; the character of the relationships formed by the act; the number of wives and children he had. . ." (The Millennial Star, Vol 15, page 825)

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Quote from: Lively StoneNo, no one who knows Jesus Christ personally holds to any LDS position.

...except biblical prophets, apostles and early Christians.

That is completely false. Mormons may hold some true beliefs, but they are a Johnny-come-lately religion.

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Quote from: Lively StoneYes, God is revealed as three distinct persons.

But that's not what the scene at the baptism says. It says only that Christ came up out of the water, the Holy Ghost descended and the Father spoke from heaven. Where in there does it say that these three are One God, co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal?

The baptism of Jesus Christ revealed the three in one place at the same time. That is all you need to know.

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Quote from: Lively StoneBoth Jesus the Son and God the Father and Holy Spirit are equal in power and authority.

Yet even the scriptural verses you use to support your argument say otherwise.

That's a lie. The entire body of scripture teaches you otherwise.

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Quote from: Lively StoneIt may not make sense to the fleshly mind of man, but it is the truth nonetheless, and must be accepted by faith. I don't have any problem with Jesus declaring the Father to be His God---He was speaking as a flesh man, as our example. As a flesh and blood man, He was a creature a little lower than the angelic realm, just as we are---temporarily.

That's an awfully convenient answer. You're saying in essence, if my doctrine doesn't make sense, it's not supposed to be and it's beyond our comprehension.

Nothing convenient about it. It is the SIMPLE truth. It is for you to believe, not argue over.

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Quote from: Lively StoneWalking in the Spirit equates with moral uprightness. Without Holy Spirit living in and through us, we will never be able to walk in righteousness, but will always be striving to reach some benchmark of goodness.

So essentially you believe the exact same thing we do, that we are to live good lives because we love Christ.

Basically, except that because of Holy Spirit dwelling within us, we are transformed by His power and enabled to live the life God calls us to live. It doesn't and shouldn't require heavy striving.

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Quote from: Lively StoneNonsense. Jesus Christ is busy building His Church and His Spirit is busy anointing His followers to do the work of the Church. There is no organizational chart, or body that ordains men and women---or children for that matter---to do the works of Christ.

So are you just going to ignore all the New Testament references to being called and ordained? Are you going to dispute what the Bible says about an organization that has prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers, elders, bishops and deacons? These positions were for the edification of the saints until they are unified in faith. And this is something that has clearly not happened. What do you think it meant when Christ called and "ordained" the twelve, or where He gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter? Why is the Bible full of instances where apostles instructed the church, and where other ecclesiastical positions were filled? What did it mean when Paul wrote to Titus when he gave the instruction, :that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee." See, Titus was to set things in order, and ordain elders in the same manner that Paul appointed Titus himself. As Hebrews 5:4 says, "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." This pretty much disrupts your entire argument. You don't get this authority by desiring it, for no man can take this honor upon himself. God must call him, as he did with Aaron.

The idea of a Universal Priesthood is an apostate doctrine that was not in existence until the Protestant reformation.

You have been completely indoctrinated in error, and it is because of your small, churchy thinking.

I have the authority of Jesus Christ to do the works of Christ as He enables me. He says so.

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Quote from: Lively StoneThis is a complete fabrication of the LDS religion. You are steeped and mired in a false religion and not in the truth of God's word, and are now trying to pass off lies of the Mormon religion to those of us here who know the word of God. It's rather laughable.

What's laughable about it? The LDS understanding of the gift of the Holy Ghost is entirely biblical. Only those who possess the authority to bestow it may do so, like Ananias did to Paul upon his conversion.

Who bestows what? We, who are Christ's and are indwelt by Holy Spirit, baptized in His power, have the authority to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, lay hands on the sick, raise the dead and to cast out demons in Jesus' name.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneAs a child of the King, I am a member of the royal priesthood. I have more than one gift of the Holy Spirit, and have the right as a believer to lay hands on those who would receive from Him.

Except the Bible does not support a universal priesthood, and that is not what Peter was referring to.

Universal? No---only believers in Jesus Christ are His royal priesthood.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneJust from your lack of knowledge about the operation of Holy Spirit, I can see that the LDS has blinded you to His truth and Mormonism has been revealed to be false and a snare.

And what exactly have I said that is incorrect about the Spirit?

Most everything so far.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneGod calls, and He equips those He calls. Every person who receives salvation in Jesus Christ receives certain gifts and abilities with which to serve God with power and success. It is not a Church function

.

Yes, certainly. Every individual of Christ's church (LDS) has been given spiritual gifts. But I'm not speaking about that. I'm talking about the authority to act in behalf of God in carrying out the ordinances and function of the church.

The Church of Jesus Christ does not include any other religion, especially the LDS. Anyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ has the authority to act in any which way He calls. As for the operation of the local church, Jesus calls and equips and places those he needs for every position of ministry.

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Quote from: Lively StoneThat is a foolish thing to be saying, seeing as the LDS is founded not only by a false prophet, but by a poor example of a man, to boot

Is his reputation any more disreputable than the prophets of the Bible? Think about that for a minute.

Smith's reputation is that of a man who is not of God, a dupe of Satan and a deceiver of men because of that. Every prophet of God in scripture were real men with foibles and weaknesses but they were redeemed men, who knew and walked with God and were not pawns of Satan.

Quote

Quote from: Lively StoneI have done so---50 years ago and each time I fail God, ever since. I have yet to commit the sin of following after a false prophet and embracing a false religion. That is something Holy Spirit will have to deal heavily with you about. It is only then that you will desire to repent. I do pray that it is soon and will not be too late.

You make it sound like I've never repented before, which I have. I have no reason to repent of my current religious affiliation because God has made it known that I am accepted by Him. And who am I...or you...to disagree with Him or to comment on my relationship with Him?

Repenting of deception is still outstanding. There is a great gulf fixed between what you claim is the truth about Jesus Christ and what every born again Christian who walks with Him daily knows.

QuoteOf course you do. It is to your own detriment.

And yours as well. You make Christ out to be a cult leader with your definition. I won't do that.

QuoteA person who chooses to wear a cross or a purity ring, or a flag pin on their lapel are doing something cultural, not biblical, or cultish. The secret things that the Mormon deems sacred are cultish, and not cultural.

It's impossible to win this argument because you made up your own definition of cult to suit your own needs. What makes it more cult-like to attribute sacredness to something?

You may disagree with the church, but to say that believing in sacred clothing makes one a cult is to do so to the ancient Israelites. As much as you disagree with us, the notion of sacred temple clothings IS biblical.

QuoteNo, not incorrect. Christians quite quickly formed local churches, and became separate from the rejecting Judaism. Churches are not the Temple.

Of course you're incorrect. You said that temple worship ended with the New Covenant. Clearly it didn't as illustrated from the Book of Acts. Churches are not temples, I'm aware. I don't know what relevance that has. All I know is that early Christians still maintained temple worship as part of their Christianity, and Christ must not have had a problem with it because He appeared in the temple to give instructions during moments of prayer.

QuoteThat is a convenient argument. It is obvious that the lying spirit completely deceived Joseph Smith. The devil himself knows that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. He offers up twisted truth. It is up to the true believer to be on guard for the subtle lies that Satan presents.

Yes, it's a convenient argument because it completely nullifies your own. The devil does know Jesus is come in the flesh. Read what the verse says. EVERY spirit that testifies that Christ is come in the flesh is of God, this is what the Bible says. Since Moroni testified of this truth, it cannot, according to the Bible, be from Satan. I understand it presents a conundrum for your position, but rather than taking the Bible at its word, you maintain still that it is Satan. If you claim this, then you are saying you do not trust the Bible on this matter.

Quote
Trying hard is the hallmark of Mormonism, among other religions. You need to study up on the atonement---it doesn't make up for what we lack. God's grace through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ does it all for us because we lack everything necessary for righteousness in ourselves.

Exactly, we cannot save ourselves. But, the Bible makes it clear that works are part of the equation. You're probably familiar with James's comments that faith without works is dead. Works complements our faith, validates it. If we have so little faith that it does not inspire us to action, is it truly faith sufficient enough to save us? We keep the commandments because Jesus proclaimed that those who love him will do so. Tell me, do you think you can be saved if you don't love Christ?

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Proof enough that he was not led by God.

How is this proof? Even if it is a sin to be a free mason, and I see no evidence of this, is it truly worse than the actions of David, who not only committed adultery, resulting in an illegitimate marriage, but then tried to rectify the problem by sending the woman's husband into battle, hoping he'd be killed? Is it any worse than Paul prior to his conversion, who most likely had a part in the stoning of Stephen? A prophet need not be perfect, assuming even that free masonry is forbidden by God. And so far, you've given no evidence for that.

QuoteSorry, but you fail to reveal scripture that proves this. When God revealed Himself as a man to anyone in the OT, He was the pre-incarnate Christ.

Hey, what do you know? We too believe that the OT incarnation of God is the pre-incarnate Christ. See, we have some things in common.

Quote
Still no scripture...

I already gave you a passage from the D&C. It's not my fault that you reject God's modern day revelations.

I can ask the same of you, though. Where does the Bible say that God's essence is only spirit? I find it interesting that you will ignore the textual and literary context to make your point. I pointed to the words of Jewish scholars who explained what the term God is Spirit would have meant to the Jews at that time. And they would not have interpreted it to mean that God's body is made of just spirit.

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What God has provided in His word is enough. The Book of Mormon reveals nothing of authenticity, because it is a gargantuan fraud.

Except that the Bible never say the Bible's enough.

QuoteMany other Mormon writers declare Jesus married. For anyone to even entertain the idea reveals a weakness for heresy. The "church' doesn't have the voice to receive or reject or to have 'an official position' on anything. Christians, as the Body of Christ, do.

Yes the church does. Official doctrine is established by the joint voice of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and then by revelation to the members of the church by the power of the Holy Ghost. It doesn't matter how many members entertain an incorrect ideal. That does not make it the official church position.

You also show a profound lack of understanding about the structure of the church. Each of these quotes you posted were from people other than the president of the church. They don't have the authority to declare God's will to the people. Only the President of the Church holds those keys.

Why is it, though, heretical to believe Christ was married? Where is that in the Bible?

Quote
That is completely false. Mormons may hold some true beliefs, but they are a Johnny-come-lately religion.

I can give ample evidence that most (though admittedly not all) of our beliefs have support from the Bible. And I can show you many, many first century Christians who believe in such things as baptism for the dead. Do you know that Polycarp, a disciple to John the disciple believed that man may become God? Since he was taught by an apostle who actually knew Christ, it's fair to say that he knew what he was talking about.

QuoteThe baptism of Jesus Christ revealed the three in one place at the same time. That is all you need to know.

I don't think you are comprehending what I'm getting at. I can see that all three are present in one place here. But nowhere does this account claim that the three are One God because they are of One essence.

QuoteThat's a lie. The entire body of scripture teaches you otherwise.

Read the verse you used to support that Christ is equal with God the Father. It says the exact opposite. It says that God gave Christ temporary authority over the earth until evil is eradicated, then Christ hands it over to the Father and becomes subject to Him. What do you think it means when it says Jesus Christ will become subject to the Father? Keep in mind, this isn't speaking of Christ's mortal ministry, as these events are to occur after the resurrection. If the Father and Son are equal, why is the son subject to the Father?

QuoteNothing convenient about it. It is the SIMPLE truth. It is for you to believe, not argue over.

Somehow, I get the idea that you wouldn't accept the same answer from me to explain away one of our more complex doctrines.

Quote
Basically, except that because of Holy Spirit dwelling within us, we are transformed by His power and enabled to live the life God calls us to live. It doesn't and shouldn't require heavy striving.

I would disagree. The Bible teaches us to endure to the end, to remain steadfast in the face of trials and temptations. I'd say this means we need to work to become more like Christ. Your interpretation fails to explain how so-called devout, spirit filled Christians go wayward and succumb to sin. Simply looking around this forum, you'll see many, many Christians struggling to overcome their weaknesses and sins.

QuoteYou have been completely indoctrinated in error, and it is because of your small, churchy thinking.

I have the authority of Jesus Christ to do the works of Christ as He enables me. He says so.

Fine if you think so. But you've got to understand that I find it incredibly hard to ignore the clear biblical model of priesthood leadership. How do you explain away the many verses that testify of church offices and ordinations?

QuoteWho bestows what? We, who are Christ's and are indwelt by Holy Spirit, baptized in His power, have the authority to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, lay hands on the sick, raise the dead and to cast out demons in Jesus' name.

An authorized Priesthood holder confers these gifts. One must possess such authority to do these things. Think again of the account of Paul's conversion. He didn't receive the Holy Ghost upon his conversion. No, he was sent to Ananias, someone who held the Priesthood of God, and He bestowed this gift upon him. So too is it this way in today's church.

QuoteUniversal? No---only believers in Jesus Christ are His royal priesthood.

Universal priesthood and priesthood of all believers are synonyms of one another. That's all I meant by the phrase.

QuoteMost everything so far.

Examples?

Quote
The Church of Jesus Christ does not include any other religion, especially the LDS. Anyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ has the authority to act in any which way He calls. As for the operation of the local church, Jesus calls and equips and places those he needs for every position of ministry

Yes, Jesus Christ calls and ordains people to the ministry. This is the Priesthood, individuals given authority by God to act in His name. No, everyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ does not have this authority, meaning the Priesthood. Christ says the exact opposite. Remember again, No one can take this honor upon himself, he must be called of God. You don't get this authority because you feel you deserve it, nor can you claim authority simply because. The Bible has a set standard regarding this issue. In the New Testament, people are called and ordained, the church is organized with specific priesthood offices (Bishop, Teacher, Prophet, Apostle, Elder). As far as I can tell, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-days Saints is the only church on earth who mirrors the New Testament church in this regard.

QuoteSmith's reputation is that of a man who is not of God, a dupe of Satan and a deceiver of men because of that. Every prophet of God in scripture were real men with foibles and weaknesses but they were redeemed men, who knew and walked with God and were not pawns of Satan.

You're using another logical fallacy. To distinguish that Joseph Smith is not a prophet of God, because He wasn't of God. Circular reasoning at its finest. And what's worse, you didn't even address the question at hand. You said God would never use someone who partook of the things Joseph Smith did to accomplish his purpose. My sole reason in pointing to biblical prophets is that yes, He does choose horribly flawed men to accomplish his purposes. I aim to show that one cannot discount Joseph Smith solely on the grounds that he had faults, even if they are major.

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Repenting of deception is still outstanding. There is a great gulf fixed between what you claim is the truth about Jesus Christ and what every born again Christian who walks with Him daily knows.

I see the gulf the other way. There is a great gulf of apostasy between the true church of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS and what every other so-called born again Christian believes.