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QuoteExcept the Roman records show it was Domitain (next caesar after Nero) who exiled him there in the early 90s and the Senate released him from exile circa 97 ad.

Well then your "Roman records" have no clue as to the succession of the Caesars during that period of history.  The Caesars that followed Nero were Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, then Domitian. 

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:34:36

QuoteThe Mosaic Age (Old Covenant; age of Law) ended with the destruction of the Temple. 

That certainly is one theory.  But it cannot be proved by scripture. Hebrews says the Mosaic covenant (written shortly before 70 ad) was "About to disappear." That could be taken as what happened at 70 but that is never confirmed in scripture.

Indeed the various books by John (written between 95-105 ad) never confirm that.

Acts 11:19  Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews.

I hope that this will lend some some support to what you are trying to get these Preterists to understand.  The term "to no one except Jews" is there because yes, the Jews of the early Church had taken the Gospel primarily to Jews.  And the reason for that is because they first went to the synagogues.  There were many synagogues established in cities outside of Jerusalem.  And this was long before the extreme persecution by Nero and Domitian's outlawing of the Christian faith. 

Some Christians are so dogmatic about their beliefs that they d___-near hate Jews.  I know that I can say that I believe that Christ fulfilled the Law without spewing out what seems to be such a disdain for Jews and Zionists.

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:19:22

Quote from: Lehigh on Mon Mar 18, 2013 - 20:00:04

The Bar Kokhba rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning, because Christ's reign had already been established for the aeons, 65 years earlier, at the Consummation of the Eschaton (in 70). Bar Kokhba and his men were trapped under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ from the very day they were conceived.

If that is so, why did so many Jesus believers join in the fight? (at least until Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the "messiah" and they left the fray being unwilling to fight for a false messiah)

The Talmud records that Bar Kochba was the final total separation of church and synagogue.  The Jesus believers had just been welcomed back into the synagogues following their exit from the 70 ad fight which traditional Jews saw as abandoning them.

I believe that a near 600,000 Jews, including Remnant Jews, were killed.  This was not some incidental uprising. 

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 12:20:29
Well then your "Roman records" have no clue as to the succession of the Caesars during that period of history.  The Caesars that followed Nero were Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus, then Domitian.

You are correct in that. I was meaning a caesar who actually stayed in office for a while. Nero died in 68 and Domitain ascended the position in 81. 5 caesars in 13 years. 

One thing that really angers me in this study is the tendancy of everyone who is writing scholarly on either the date of Revelation or its contents all seem to tie it back in to Rome and either Nero or Domitain.

Do these people know nothing of supernatural revelation? 

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:27:19

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:19:22

Quote from: Lehigh on Mon Mar 18, 2013 - 20:00:04

The Bar Kokhba rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning, because Christ's reign had already been established for the aeons, 65 years earlier, at the Consummation of the Eschaton (in 70). Bar Kokhba and his men were trapped under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ from the very day they were conceived.

If that is so, why did so many Jesus believers join in the fight? (at least until Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the "messiah" and they left the fray being unwilling to fight for a false messiah)

The Talmud records that Bar Kochba was the final total separation of church and synagogue.  The Jesus believers had just been welcomed back into the synagogues following their exit from the 70 ad fight which traditional Jews saw as abandoning them.

Why do so many "Jesus believers" do the stupid things they do today?     

Exactly!

Quote

The Mosaic Age (Old Covenant; age of Law) ended with the destruction of the Temple.  Nothing that happened later is relevant to prophecy, because Luke tells us that those were the "days of vengeance" so that "all which was written would be fulfilled."

I want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter. I have many friends who believe in Zionism, who are full on "Left Behind' adherents and I love them! We put our differences aside and love each other in Jesus' name. But I will never understand why anyone reads Luke 21 (Matthew 24 or Mark 13) without bearing in mind the context.. Herod's temple. I just don't even know why I never read it in that light until it was pointed out to me. I guess you really do get so wrapped up in a dramatic "end of the world" mindset that you cannot even see that you are taking the text and removing it from the very context that God gave us to understand it.

It's a strange thing to be so indoctrinated... glad I got out of that movement. The preterist view of those chapters is really the most honest reading I've found. And considering Revelation starts and ends with time statements like "soon" and "at hand" I think it's the most honest look at the prophecy of that book as well.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 13:18:44

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:27:19

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:19:22

Quote from: Lehigh on Mon Mar 18, 2013 - 20:00:04

The Bar Kokhba rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning, because Christ's reign had already been established for the aeons, 65 years earlier, at the Consummation of the Eschaton (in 70). Bar Kokhba and his men were trapped under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ from the very day they were conceived.

If that is so, why did so many Jesus believers join in the fight? (at least until Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the "messiah" and they left the fray being unwilling to fight for a false messiah)

The Talmud records that Bar Kochba was the final total separation of church and synagogue.  The Jesus believers had just been welcomed back into the synagogues following their exit from the 70 ad fight which traditional Jews saw as abandoning them.

Why do so many "Jesus believers" do the stupid things they do today?     

Exactly!

Quote

The Mosaic Age (Old Covenant; age of Law) ended with the destruction of the Temple.  Nothing that happened later is relevant to prophecy, because Luke tells us that those were the "days of vengeance" so that "all which was written would be fulfilled."

I want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter. I have many friends who believe in Zionism, who are full on "Left Behind' adherents and I love them! We put our differences aside and love each other in Jesus' name. But I will never understand why anyone reads Luke 21 (Matthew 24 or Mark 13) without bearing in mind the context.. Herod's temple. I just don't even know why I never read it in that light until it was pointed out to me. I guess you really do get so wrapped up in a dramatic "end of the world" mindset that you cannot even see that you are taking the text and removing it from the very context that God gave us to understand it.

It's a strange thing to be so indoctrinated... glad I got out of that movement. The preterist view of those chapters is really the most honest reading I've found. And considering Revelation starts and ends with time statements like "soon" and "at hand" I think it's the most honest look at the prophecy of that book as well.

How about dropping the word "stupid?" 

Revelation was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  He called it a prophecy six times.  I believe what is in the Scriptures.  The truth is that God has not revealed everything and you Preterists are trying to fill in all of the blanks just like the dispensationals.  You're no better!

QuoteRevelation was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

And???

QuoteHe called it a prophecy six times. 

Prophecy that was about to be fulfilled ("soon" and "near") written by the same hand directed to write everything else in the book.  Or are just parts of the book that fit your view "inspired?"   

QuoteI believe what is in the Scriptures.

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

Except this, right?   

QuoteThe truth is that God has not revealed everything...

He's revealed enough to know that Dispensationalism and Futurism are false doctrine.  I woke up from the deception.  Why don't you?

Quote...and you Preterists are trying to fill in all of the blanks just like the dispensationals.  You're no better!

Well actually, yes we are.   

QuoteI want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter.

I don't hate dispys or Jews, either.  I do, however, despise false teaching, and Dispensationalism is anathema to the Word of God and the gospel of Christ.

QuoteI was meaning a caesar who actually stayed in office for a while.

Well then, why skip Vespasian?  He was Caesar for 10 years.

QuoteSome Christians are so dogmatic about their beliefs that they d___-near hate Jews.  I know that I can say that I believe that Christ fulfilled the Law without spewing out what seems to be such a disdain for Jews and Zionists.

Accusing others of hate is an insidious slur: one that should be beneath any so-called Christian.  If you read these posts carefully, no one here has professed or even implied hatred of the Jews of any age.  Take your defamation elsewhere, troll.   

QuoteOne thing that really angers me in this study is the tendancy of everyone who is writing scholarly on either the date of Revelation or its contents all seem to tie it back in to Rome and either Nero or Domitain.

Well yes, because John was writing to seven churches that were undergoing persecution at the time of Nero.  (The first persecution of the church, however, came at the hands of the Sanhedrin: no hate, just fact!)

QuoteDo these people know nothing of supernatural revelation?

Are you suggesting God has given you a "special Revelation" that contradicts all scholarly work on the subject?  If so let's see it.   

Quote from: notreligus on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 14:17:59

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 13:18:44

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:27:19

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:19:22

Quote from: Lehigh on Mon Mar 18, 2013 - 20:00:04

The Bar Kokhba rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning, because Christ's reign had already been established for the aeons, 65 years earlier, at the Consummation of the Eschaton (in 70). Bar Kokhba and his men were trapped under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ from the very day they were conceived.

If that is so, why did so many Jesus believers join in the fight? (at least until Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the "messiah" and they left the fray being unwilling to fight for a false messiah)

The Talmud records that Bar Kochba was the final total separation of church and synagogue.  The Jesus believers had just been welcomed back into the synagogues following their exit from the 70 ad fight which traditional Jews saw as abandoning them.

Why do so many "Jesus believers" do the stupid things they do today?     

Exactly!

Quote

The Mosaic Age (Old Covenant; age of Law) ended with the destruction of the Temple.  Nothing that happened later is relevant to prophecy, because Luke tells us that those were the "days of vengeance" so that "all which was written would be fulfilled."

I want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter. I have many friends who believe in Zionism, who are full on "Left Behind' adherents and I love them! We put our differences aside and love each other in Jesus' name. But I will never understand why anyone reads Luke 21 (Matthew 24 or Mark 13) without bearing in mind the context.. Herod's temple. I just don't even know why I never read it in that light until it was pointed out to me. I guess you really do get so wrapped up in a dramatic "end of the world" mindset that you cannot even see that you are taking the text and removing it from the very context that God gave us to understand it.

It's a strange thing to be so indoctrinated... glad I got out of that movement. The preterist view of those chapters is really the most honest reading I've found. And considering Revelation starts and ends with time statements like "soon" and "at hand" I think it's the most honest look at the prophecy of that book as well.

How about dropping the word "stupid?" 

Revelation was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  He called it a prophecy six times.  I believe what is in the Scriptures.  The truth is that God has not revealed everything and you Preterists are trying to fill in all of the blanks just like the dispensationals.  You're no better!

notreligus,

Why have you included my comment (being the last) in yours? Did you reply to me or to Stormcrow?

I would say again, if a person does not believe the end of the world [age] occurred when Herod's temple was destroyed, they are either ignorantly or purposefully removing the text from it's context, and the latter in order to form their eschatological views.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus Christ gave a straightforward answer to his disciples' question about the desolation of that temple, which they believed to be synonymous with "his coming" and "the end of the age." (Compare Matthew 24:2-3 with Luke 21:5-7 and Mark 13:2-4) An honest reading keeps his answer in this context.

The prophecy of Revelation is all about that same "end".. and John wrote in the first century that the prophecy "must shortly come to pass". So much so that God gave him the exact opposite command from what he told Daniel to do (who was far removed from this time) saying rather that he NOT seal up the words of this prophecy! Why? Because the time was at hand! (Rev 22:10)

These things combined should be plenty to convince the believer that God's word is fulfilled, and has been for the last 2000 years. If you disagree, please dissect what I've just said and show me (from Scripture) that I am wrong here. I invite criticism... perhaps I'll see something that I hadn't before.

Under Domitian

According to some historians, Jews and Christians were heavily persecuted toward the end of Domitian's reign (89-96).[63] The Book of Revelation, which mentions at least one instance of martyrdom (Rev 2:13; cf. 6:9), is thought by many scholars to have been written during Domitian's reign.[64][65] Eusebius, a scholar of biblical canon, wrote that the social conflict described by Revelation reflects Domitian's organization of excessive and cruel banishments and executions of Christians, but these claims may be exaggerated or false.[66] Many historians, however, have maintained that there was little or no persecution of Christians during Domitian's time.[67][68][69] The lack of consensus by historians about the extent of persecution during the reign of Domitian derives from the fact that while accounts of persecution exist, these accounts are very cursory or their reliability is debated.[61]

Often, reference is made to the execution of Flavius Clemens, a Roman consul and cousin of the Emperor, and the banishment of his wife, Flavia Domitilla, to the island of Pandateria. Eusebius alleges that Flavia Domitilla was banished because she was a Christian, leading some modern interpreters to suggest the same. However, Dio's account 67.14.1-2) only reports that she, along with many others, was guilty of sympathy for Judaism,[70] and Suetonis does not mention the exile at all[71] According to Keresztes, it is far more probable is that they were converts to Judaism who attempted to evade payment of the Fiscus Iudaicus - the tax imposed on all persons who practiced Judaism. (262-265).[64] In any case, no stories of Christian persecution during Domitian's reign reference any sort of legal ordinances[61]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

In other words, the basis for believing the Book of Revelation was written during Caesar Domitian's reign is nothing more than belief, as the amount and severity of persecution under his reign is questionable, at best.

However, there can be no doubt that Nero persecuted the early church; that his name "Nero Caesar" adds up to 666 or 616 depending on the gematria used; that the Syriac version of Revelation specifically states John was on the Isle of Patmos because of Nero; and that the Temple is still seen standing in chapter 11 of the book! 

The one argument for the later dating of Revelation comes from a misinterpreted statement from Irenaeus, which Robert Young explains here:

"It [the book of Revelation] was written in Patmos about A.D. 68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in A.D. 175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou - i.e., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius, Orosins, etc., stupidly mistaking Dimitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the early date."

And what was Nero's birth name???

Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, the future Nero, was born on 15 December 37 in Antium, near Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero

Domitius.  Domitian.  Futurists are off by a single vowel and consonant. 

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 15:05:16

QuoteDo these people know nothing of supernatural revelation?

Are you suggesting God has given you a "special Revelation" that contradicts all scholarly work on the subject?

I claim no such thing.  Instead, I claim that having been around the prophetic ministries and looking at the Hebrew prophets like Isaiah and Ezekiel and Daniel has shown me that prophetic utterances (especially those dealing with future events) may bear a certain resemblance to events current to the prophet but actually are for entirely different situations.

What I don't get is that these so-called scholars do not seem to understand that.  They almost always opt for a non-supernatural explanation.

QuoteThey almost always opt for a non-supernatural explanation.

Because in light of the fact that Revelation was divinely dictated (not inspired: "write down what you see and hear") understanding to whom, for whom, and why it was written requires no appeal to supernatural explanations when good old fashioned scholarship is sufficient.

In other words, if I can look at the way a duck walks, quacks, flies, and swims, I don't need a supernatural revelation to tell me what is clear without it. 

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 14:50:27

QuoteI want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter.

I don't hate dispys or Jews, either.  I do, however, despise false teaching, and Dispensationalism is anathema to the Word of God and the gospel of Christ.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 15:18:31

Quote from: notreligus on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 14:17:59

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 13:18:44

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:27:19

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:19:22

Quote from: Lehigh on Mon Mar 18, 2013 - 20:00:04

The Bar Kokhba rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning, because Christ's reign had already been established for the aeons, 65 years earlier, at the Consummation of the Eschaton (in 70). Bar Kokhba and his men were trapped under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ from the very day they were conceived.

If that is so, why did so many Jesus believers join in the fight? (at least until Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the "messiah" and they left the fray being unwilling to fight for a false messiah)

The Talmud records that Bar Kochba was the final total separation of church and synagogue.  The Jesus believers had just been welcomed back into the synagogues following their exit from the 70 ad fight which traditional Jews saw as abandoning them.

Why do so many "Jesus believers" do the stupid things they do today?     

Exactly!

Quote

The Mosaic Age (Old Covenant; age of Law) ended with the destruction of the Temple.  Nothing that happened later is relevant to prophecy, because Luke tells us that those were the "days of vengeance" so that "all which was written would be fulfilled."

I want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter. I have many friends who believe in Zionism, who are full on "Left Behind' adherents and I love them! We put our differences aside and love each other in Jesus' name. But I will never understand why anyone reads Luke 21 (Matthew 24 or Mark 13) without bearing in mind the context.. Herod's temple. I just don't even know why I never read it in that light until it was pointed out to me. I guess you really do get so wrapped up in a dramatic "end of the world" mindset that you cannot even see that you are taking the text and removing it from the very context that God gave us to understand it.

It's a strange thing to be so indoctrinated... glad I got out of that movement. The preterist view of those chapters is really the most honest reading I've found. And considering Revelation starts and ends with time statements like "soon" and "at hand" I think it's the most honest look at the prophecy of that book as well.

How about dropping the word "stupid?" 

Revelation was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  He called it a prophecy six times.  I believe what is in the Scriptures.  The truth is that God has not revealed everything and you Preterists are trying to fill in all of the blanks just like the dispensationals.  You're no better!

notreligus,

Why have you included my comment (being the last) in yours? Did you reply to me or to Stormcrow?

I would say again, if a person does not believe the end of the world [age] occurred when Herod's temple was destroyed, they are either ignorantly or purposefully removing the text from it's context, and the latter in order to form their eschatological views.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus Christ gave a straightforward answer to his disciples' question about the desolation of that temple, which they believed to be synonymous with "his coming" and "the end of the age." (Compare Matthew 24:2-3 with Luke 21:5-7 and Mark 13:2-4) An honest reading keeps his answer in this context.

The prophecy of Revelation is all about that same "end".. and John wrote in the first century that the prophecy "must shortly come to pass". So much so that God gave him the exact opposite command from what he told Daniel to do (who was far removed from this time) saying rather that he NOT seal up the words of this prophecy! Why? Because the time was at hand! (Rev 22:10)

These things combined should be plenty to convince the believer that God's word is fulfilled, and has been for the last 2000 years. If you disagree, please dissect what I've just said and show me (from Scripture) that I am wrong here. I invite criticism... perhaps I'll see something that I hadn't before.

"Stupid" was there regardless, and I presume it had your stamp of approval.

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 14:59:29

QuoteSome Christians are so dogmatic about their beliefs that they d___-near hate Jews.  I know that I can say that I believe that Christ fulfilled the Law without spewing out what seems to be such a disdain for Jews and Zionists.

Accusing others of hate is an insidious slur: one that should be beneath any so-called Christian.  If you read these posts carefully, no one here has professed or even implied hatred of the Jews of any age.  Take your defamation elsewhere, troll.   

How else could your posts be interpreted?  You're calling others "stupid" and your making slurs about Scofield that is just parroting what his enemies have said through the years.  There's nothing scholarly involved with such.

Also, I'm sure you can't read the tone of your own posts which you make in the heat of a discussion.   I'm also guilty of having done that and I have come across as rude to others.  But that does not excuse me.  And that does not excuse you.  Tone it down!! 

I just wanted to add.  You're really a nice guy with your reference to me as a "so-called" Christian.  We'll see if you have the backbone to admit what you've done. 

Quote from: notreligus on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 16:33:31

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 14:50:27

QuoteI want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter.

I don't hate dispys or Jews, either.  I do, however, despise false teaching, and Dispensationalism is anathema to the Word of God and the gospel of Christ.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 15:18:31

Quote from: notreligus on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 14:17:59

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 13:18:44

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:27:19

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 05:19:22

Quote from: Lehigh on Mon Mar 18, 2013 - 20:00:04

The Bar Kokhba rebellion was doomed to failure from the beginning, because Christ's reign had already been established for the aeons, 65 years earlier, at the Consummation of the Eschaton (in 70). Bar Kokhba and his men were trapped under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ from the very day they were conceived.

If that is so, why did so many Jesus believers join in the fight? (at least until Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba the "messiah" and they left the fray being unwilling to fight for a false messiah)

The Talmud records that Bar Kochba was the final total separation of church and synagogue.  The Jesus believers had just been welcomed back into the synagogues following their exit from the 70 ad fight which traditional Jews saw as abandoning them.

Why do so many "Jesus believers" do the stupid things they do today?     

Exactly!

Quote

The Mosaic Age (Old Covenant; age of Law) ended with the destruction of the Temple.  Nothing that happened later is relevant to prophecy, because Luke tells us that those were the "days of vengeance" so that "all which was written would be fulfilled."

I want to remove myself from any notion that we hate dispensationalists or the modern Jews for that matter. I have many friends who believe in Zionism, who are full on "Left Behind' adherents and I love them! We put our differences aside and love each other in Jesus' name. But I will never understand why anyone reads Luke 21 (Matthew 24 or Mark 13) without bearing in mind the context.. Herod's temple. I just don't even know why I never read it in that light until it was pointed out to me. I guess you really do get so wrapped up in a dramatic "end of the world" mindset that you cannot even see that you are taking the text and removing it from the very context that God gave us to understand it.

It's a strange thing to be so indoctrinated... glad I got out of that movement. The preterist view of those chapters is really the most honest reading I've found. And considering Revelation starts and ends with time statements like "soon" and "at hand" I think it's the most honest look at the prophecy of that book as well.

How about dropping the word "stupid?" 

Revelation was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  He called it a prophecy six times.  I believe what is in the Scriptures.  The truth is that God has not revealed everything and you Preterists are trying to fill in all of the blanks just like the dispensationals.  You're no better!

notreligus,

Why have you included my comment (being the last) in yours? Did you reply to me or to Stormcrow?

I would say again, if a person does not believe the end of the world [age] occurred when Herod's temple was destroyed, they are either ignorantly or purposefully removing the text from it's context, and the latter in order to form their eschatological views.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus Christ gave a straightforward answer to his disciples' question about the desolation of that temple, which they believed to be synonymous with "his coming" and "the end of the age." (Compare Matthew 24:2-3 with Luke 21:5-7 and Mark 13:2-4) An honest reading keeps his answer in this context.

The prophecy of Revelation is all about that same "end".. and John wrote in the first century that the prophecy "must shortly come to pass". So much so that God gave him the exact opposite command from what he told Daniel to do (who was far removed from this time) saying rather that he NOT seal up the words of this prophecy! Why? Because the time was at hand! (Rev 22:10)

These things combined should be plenty to convince the believer that God's word is fulfilled, and has been for the last 2000 years. If you disagree, please dissect what I've just said and show me (from Scripture) that I am wrong here. I invite criticism... perhaps I'll see something that I hadn't before.

"Stupid" was there regardless, and I presume it had your stamp of approval.

I wouldn't have agreed if I read it the way you are reading it. The point being made was that Christians just do stupid things sometimes, like stockpiling rice for Y2K... or in this case, joining a fight that was doomed to fail. Dave seemed to be using their involvement as a defense for Bar Kochba being a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Perhaps I was misunderstanding him.

The reality is that calling someone stupid and saying their actions were such are to me two very different things.

Quote from: notreligus on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 16:36:23

Quote from: Stormcrow on Thu Mar 21, 2013 - 14:59:29

QuoteSome Christians are so dogmatic about their beliefs that they d___-near hate Jews.  I know that I can say that I believe that Christ fulfilled the Law without spewing out what seems to be such a disdain for Jews and Zionists.

Accusing others of hate is an insidious slur: one that should be beneath any so-called Christian.  If you read these posts carefully, no one here has professed or even implied hatred of the Jews of any age.  Take your defamation elsewhere, troll.   

How else could your posts be interpreted?  You're calling others "stupid" and your making slurs about Scofield that is just parroting what his enemies have said through the years.  There's nothing scholarly involved with such.

Also, I'm sure you can't read the tone of your own posts which you make in the heat of a discussion.   I'm also guilty of having done that and I have come across as rude to others.  But that does not excuse me.  And that does not excuse you.  Tone it down!! 

I just wanted to add.  You're really a nice guy with your reference to me as a "so-called" Christian.  We'll see if you have the backbone to admit what you've done.

OK.  You're dismissed. 

I am not a dispensationalist, so using scoffield as an argument is, frankly, setting up a straw man argument.

So far, we have circular logic, false accusations of anti-semmitism and straw man arguments.  Do you preterists have any real, empiricle evidence to support your spurious claim?

To those on both sides of this argument appealing to Ireneus...

Ireneus also says that Jesus lived and taught for almost two decades AFTER his crucifixion, before ascending into the heavens.  Ireneus is not the be-all end-all.

Also, Bond, if you're not a dispensationalist, how would you categorize yourself?

Jarrod

In my mind, the greatest evidence for the pre-70 dating of Revelation is the internal evidence. One can google it and find a plethora of info on the subject. I am convinced that John wrote it during Nero's reign.. he was, after all, the 6th "king". Five had already fallen and one continued only a short time after him... Galba. It was Nero who gave the order to destroy Jerusalem, that "great city" where our Lord was crucified.. that mother of harlots called "Mystery Babylon the Great" and "Sodom and Egypt." Even Peter referred to Jerusalem as Babylon in his first epistle, as he evidently dwelt there. And Jesus said that she was guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth (God's holy apostles and prophets, and ultimately Christ). In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, Jesus declared that when the lord of the vineyard came, he would destroy those who killed the ones God sent to them. The Jews hearing him that day knew he spoke of them. All this concerns that prophecy about Jerusalem being compassed with armies and every stone of the temple being thrown down. All was leading up to the judgment of God upon that generation. "All these things shall come upon this generation.."

And why wouldn't the final judgment written about in the Bible fall upon the very generation that "filled up the measure of their fathers" and killed the Son of God? These also persecuted the saints, even those to whom John specifically wrote in Asia, the Lord called them the "synagogue of Satan." God promised he would avenge his own speedily, and he did! Jesus even called the time when his disciples would see Jerusalem surrounded (prior to the temple's destruction) the days of vengeance.. vengeance!! Surely, God avenged his own.

If you take the view of a late dating, you leave the entire book open to any and every interpretation of man. That is exactly what has happened over the last 2000 years. But it seems from warnings given not to add or take away from the prophecy, that God wanted the book to be very specifically understood and received with one strict interpretation. That lends itself to a fulfilled view as well. The saints in those 7 churches and their contemporaries would have understood what John was writing about. After all, he was writing to them! The things were at hand to them, and about to come to pass. The Jews were still persecuting, and the temple was still standing.. but not for long! No one else since has agreed on it's meaning.

Also, John told them (the saints in Asia) that they were blessed to read and to keep the things written therein. The details of the book must have been relevant to them, in their time. The beast, the false prophet, mystery babylon etc. Otherwise John would be mocking them telling them, for instance, that they could count the number with wisdom to know who he spoke of. So many other reasons why a pre-70 dating makes perfect sense. I recommend a thorough study on the subject. :)

I know we won't agree, and that I might be missing something. But so far, all I see is fulfilled prophecy. I got tired of the drama.. "who's the antichrist?" "The one world government is coming.." "Don't let them put a chip in you!" I really believe a future fulfillment view has hurt and divided much more than it has ever helped.

Quote from: BondServant on Fri Mar 22, 2013 - 01:33:07
I am not a dispensationalist, so using scoffield as an argument is, frankly, setting up a straw man argument.

So far, we have circular logic, false accusations of anti-semmitism and straw man arguments.  Do you preterists have any real, empiricle evidence to support your spurious claim?

QuoteEmpirical:
a. Relying on or derived from observation or experiment: empirical results that supported the hypothesis.
b. Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment: empirical laws.
2. Guided by practical experience and not theory, especially in medicine.

Jesus & the Apostles predicted the end of the old covenant age, with lots of warning signs. We believe their word, & history accords with that word. The temple WAS destroyed within the lifetime of the generation that rejected its Messiah.

You make your own accusations against Preterists. What empirical evidence do YOU have that show ad 70 to be irrelevant to prophecy?

QuoteI got tired of the drama.. "who's the antichrist?" "The one world government is coming.." "Don't let them put a chip in you!" I really believe a future fulfillment view has hurt and divided much more than it has ever helped.

Exactly.  My trip down the road to preterism started with two simple ideas: I wanted to know the truth and I was willing to follow the evidence wherever it led.  I got tired of people using news headlines to interpret the Bible.  Headlines change.  The Word of God doesn't.

Nothing about Dispy/Futurism made sense either in relation to the changing interpretations that were constantly put out there or to the Bible itself.  In the 70s the revived Roman Empire would spawn the anti-christ.  In the 80s it was the Soviet Union then Russia.  People said Ronald Wilson Reagan was the AC because all three of his names had 6 letters each (666!)  Now Islam is the "beast from the sea" because people are looking at headlines and trying to match the Bible to it!  It's simply, utterly ridiculous that the church is no longer taken seriously because it's been the boy crying wolf for so long!

And Bondservant...you've been shown hard evidence yet your devotion to the traditions of men have kept you from seeing it.  Seek truth and follow the evidence wherever it leads.  If you do, you will not be satisfied with the answers Dispy/Futurism provides.

Quote from: Covenanter on Fri Mar 22, 2013 - 03:40:36

QuoteEmpirical:
a. Relying on or derived from observation or experiment: empirical results that supported the hypothesis.
b. Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment: empirical laws.
2. Guided by practical experience and not theory, especially in medicine.

Jesus & the Apostles predicted the end of the old covenant age, with lots of warning signs. We believe their word, & history accords with that word. The temple WAS destroyed within the lifetime of the generation that rejected its Messiah.

You make your own accusations against Preterists. What empirical evidence do YOU have that show ad 70 to be irrelevant to prophecy?

If you are postulating that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD the burden of proof is on you.

I have asked, repeatedly, in another thread for historical evidence that shows Jesus prophecy in Matt 24 was fulfilled in its entirety.  Thus far, nobody has been able to do so.  If you can and do, than I would be willing to reconsider my position.  Please do so on the Matt 24 thread though, so we don't take away from the Revelation thread.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 - 03:33:49
In my mind, the greatest evidence for the pre-70 dating of Revelation is the internal evidence. One can google it and find a plethora of info on the subject.

raggthyme, I have read through the evidence present and my issue with the "internal evidence" is that it only works if you read Revelation through a preterist lense.  If you take a step back, remove your preterist preconceptions, then the evidence vanishes.

I do have a question for you all, and I know this is a little off topic, but do you all consider dispensationalism to be the opposite of preterism?

Quote from: Stormcrow on Fri Mar 22, 2013 - 03:54:21
And Bondservant...you've been shown hard evidence yet your devotion to the traditions of men have kept you from seeing it.  Seek truth and follow the evidence wherever it leads.  If you do, you will not be satisfied with the answers Dispy/Futurism provides.

First, I have already told you I am not a dispensationalist.  Why do you keep insisting I am?  I have never postulated any part of the dispensationalist theory.

Second, calling beliefs other than yours "traditions of men" without evidence is a violation of the forum rules.  Disagreeing is ok...implying people are not Christians becuase of disagreements in the non-essentials is not.

Third, what evidence has been provided?  The only "evidence" I have seen is what I outlined above:  a straw man argument, false accusations of anti-semitism and circular logic.  Show me some empirical or historical evidence that shows Revelation was written prior to 70 AD and I will consider it.

QuoteFirst, I have already told you I am not a dispensationalist.  Why do you keep insisting I am?

I don't know what you are and - quite frankly - don't care.  Is it also against the rules to write in broad terms when discussing issues like these, or do you just think everything written here is about you???   

QuoteSecond, calling beliefs other than yours "traditions of men" without evidence is a violation of the forum rules.

Third, what evidence has been provided?

Unless you have purposely avoided every other post in this thread, I don't see how you could have missed it.  But since you insist, you can start at the top with this post and follow the links from there:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054812184/#msg1054812184
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054812328/#msg1054812328
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054813581/#msg1054813581
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054813588/#msg1054813588
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054813592/#msg1054813592
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054813804/#msg1054813804
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054813837/#msg1054813837
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054813905/#msg1054813905
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054814798/#msg1054814798
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054814894/#msg1054814894
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/why-revelation-was-written-before-70ad/msg1054815031/#msg1054815031

You've got more than enough evidence in just those posts to put your "no evidence" claim to the lie.  And you've got some reading to do.  Get crackin'!

Oh, and before I forget...

You accused others here of being "factually inaccurate" in the same post where you wrote this:

QuoteNero was the fifth emperor of rome, Dominitan was the sixth.

I'm sure Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian and Titus would disapprove of the blatant "factual inaccuracy" you committed by leaving them out of the succession of Caesars from Nero to Domitian. 

Next time you intend to accuse others of being "factually inaccurate", you might want to check your own facts first.

I will admit that I mispoke when I stated Dominitian was the sixth, but that does not change the fact that Nero was the fifth and thus it invalidates your claim.

Further, reposting the same talking points that have already been refuted does not provide any sort of empirical or historical evidence.

You are clearly angry as you are launch false and personal attacks against me, so I am going to bow out of this thread.

If you ever decide to post real evidence instead of attacking me as an individual, let me know and I will come back.

Quote from: BondServant on Fri Mar 22, 2013 - 08:42:59
I will admit that I mispoke when I stated Dominitian was the sixth, but that does not change the fact that Nero was the fifth and thus it invalidates your claim.

Further, reposting the same talking points that have already been refuted does not provide any sort of empirical or historical evidence.

You are clearly angry as you are launch false and personal attacks against me, so I am going to bow out of this thread.

If you ever decide to post real evidence instead of attacking me as an individual, let me know and I will come back.

OK.   

The Book of Daniel was written during the persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes, [ between 167and 164 B.C.] At this time the Jews were suffering through one of the worst periods of their entire history.The author of the Book of Daniel is encouraging these persecuted Jews in code language.

The Book of Revelation was also written at a time of persecution.
Domitian, who ruled from 81-96 A.D., made it illegal not to take part in religious ceremonies honoring 'state gods'.Christians who refused to honor Domitian as "Lord and God" were to be killed. Both authors of the books of Daniel and Reveation use the same literary form [ Apocalyptic language ] and for the same reason, which was they wanted the persecuted but not their percecutors , to understand the messages.
In order to understand apocalyptic writing one must understand the "conventions" which it employs. Otherwise one may mistake a convention of the form for a statement of fact or belief and thus misunderstand the intent of the author.
The author of the Book Daniel understands his time to be the end time. Jesus told His listeners, "I tell you solemnly, before this generation has passed away all these things will have taken place " { Mark 13: 31 ]
The theme of the Book of Revelation holds just as true for every generation as it did for its original audience. We, too, need to hear and believe that we have no reason to fear because Jesus, the Lord of history, has already conquered evil. The process of Christ's coming is not complete, but the fact of His coming and the fact of His victory over evil are already established. We need not fear, we need only be faithful 'to His teachings'and be ready, for victory is ours in the risen Christ.

History and dates of emperors taken from Stephen K. Ray books, he is a Catholic convert from Baptist, his books "Crossing the Tiber " and '' Upon This Rock"

QuoteThe Lord is coming soon.

Define "soon."

Quote from: Stormcrow on Fri Mar 22, 2013 - 03:54:21

QuoteI got tired of the drama.. "who's the antichrist?" "The one world government is coming.." "Don't let them put a chip in you!" I really believe a future fulfillment view has hurt and divided much more than it has ever helped.

  I got tired of people using news headlines to interpret the Bible.  Headlines change.  The Word of God doesn't.

  It's simply, utterly ridiculous that the church is no longer taken seriously because it's been the boy crying wolf for so long!

You said exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't. I fully agree.

QuoteThe Book of Revelation was also written at a time of persecution.
Domitian, who ruled from 81-96 A.D., made it illegal not to take part in religious ceremonies honoring 'state gods'.Christians who refused to honor Domitian as "Lord and God" were to be killed.

Except that Revelation was written under the persecution that was coming from both Nero and the Sanhedrin.  Domitius' (Nero's) reign of terror, not Domitian's.