Christian Forums

CAN YOU

DEFEAT MY PROOF

THERE IS

NO FREE WILL?

I challenge all free will believers on all the earth to come here and

DEFEAT MY PROOFS...
God determines everything! The PREDESTINATION of EVERYTHING,
determines all FREE WILL, that anyone would ever have? And God determines all PREDESTINATION. Therefore it is a truth, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!


PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

Everything has been predetermined by God!

If you believe in FREE WILL and want to try to defeat my PROOFS...
please state your strongest argument in support of your case. Then I will post a rebuttal. We will take turns and follow the debate procedure of the thread till one can not go any further with their argument!

Posting any statement then assuming that it is the truth and should be counted as such in a debate by your opponent is absurd and worthless.... first you prove what you said as the truth IS THE TRUTH...then you can use it as the truth!

To further your argument!

Taking a verse from the bible and then posting it and expecting your opponent in a debate to automatically agree that it proves you right and them wrong is absurd and worthless. When you post a verse...you first must prove that it is true then that it prove that what you said is true! Then you can use it as the truth

In a debate...only what can be proved is accepted as truth!
Anything else is merely speculation!

Please follow the debate procedure of the thread!

Please do not troll or spam the thread!

Please do not post anything that is not on topic!

Please serious debaters only!

Thank You!

Well, now, if I were to argue against you, that would evidently (according to you) be because I was predetermined to do so, right?  But if I don't argue, then that also would be predetermined, right?  In other words, you are saying that any choice I make is an illusion, as there are really no choices to be made.  Am I correct?

Quote from: Helen on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 18:03:46
Well, now, if I were to argue against you, that would evidently (according to you) be because I was predetermined to do so, right?  But if I don't argue, then that also would be predetermined, right?  In other words, you are saying that any choice I make is an illusion, as there are really no choices to be made.  Am I correct?

How does this prove his proofs are incorrect? The topic of the debate thread is...
CAN YOU DEFEAT MY PROOF THERE is NO FREE WILL?

Pick out any of his proofs you believe you can prove to be incorrect...then do it!

Quote from: Helen on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 18:03:46
Well, now, if I were to argue against you, that would evidently (according to you) be because I was predetermined to do so, right?  But if I don't argue, then that also would be predetermined, right?  In other words, you are saying that any choice I make is an illusion, as there are really no choices to be made.  Am I correct?

His ...PROOF 1 defeats your posts! Did you read anything he said?
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?

Just wanted to clarify terms.  Did I state it correctly?

Quote from: TheKingJamesBible on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 17:10:02
DEFEAT MY PROOFS...
God determines everything! The PREDESTINATION of EVERYTHING, determines all FREE WILL, that anyone would ever have? And God determines all PREDESTINATION. Therefore it is a truth, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

Incorrect definition.  Predestined is not the same thing as predetermined.  Since your arguments are built on a faulty definition, they are not valid.

That was rather simple.

Jarrod

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 22:29:57

Quote from: TheKingJamesBible on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 17:10:02
DEFEAT MY PROOFS...
God determines everything! The PREDESTINATION of EVERYTHING, determines all FREE WILL, that anyone would ever have? And God determines all PREDESTINATION. Therefore it is a truth, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

Predestined is not the same thing as predetermined.  Since

When you prove that Predestined is not the same thing as predetermined then you may claim it as the truth.  But till then in this debate it is just your unproven opinion!

Just because you say this or that...does not make it this or that to actually be ...this or that!.  You   PROVE   that this or that is this or that...then you can claim to us that...this or that is this or that!

You did not answer me.  Did I state correctly your proposition?

Quote from: Helen on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 23:40:09
You did not answer me.  Did I state correctly your proposition?

Please follow the debate procedure outlined in post 1! Thank you!

If you believe in FREE WILL and want to try to defeat my PROOFS...
please state your strongest argument in support of your case. Then I will post a rebuttal. We will take turns and follow the debate procedure of the thread till one can not go any further with their argument!

Posting any statement then assuming that it is the truth and should be counted as such in a debate by your opponent is absurd and worthless.... first you prove what you said as the truth IS THE TRUTH...then you can use it as the truth!

To further your argument!

HERE ARE THE PROOFS...

PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!


PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

I am short on time, but will discuss some things with you.  Do I believe that our wills were in bondage to the devil and sin, after the fall of Adam? Yes. So, are we born again by our will? No~John 1:13.  Now, after we are born again, do we now have power over our will? You better believe that we do.  Or else, all of the commandments in the scriptures were written in vain. 

David's sin was of his own doing, God neither tempts man, nor is a partner in his sins.  I am very familiar with the doctrine of absolute predestination of the Primitive Baptist, and I reject that as heresy.  I beleive in absolute predestination in our regeneration, but not in our practical walk after regeneration. That is not to say, that God does not still protect us in our ignorance, and that he does not rule certain events in our life, apart from us not knowing it, apart from those event not working toward his eternal purpose that he purpose in Jesus Christ concerning his elect, I know that he does.  Abraham being a perfect example of that with his two wives and two sons being a perfect allegory of works of the flesh being rejected by God and the doctrine of free grace, base upon his promises to the elect seed.  God can take one event and allow it to serve several purpose at once, without us knowing it, that I know well.  But, I also know that after regeneration, our wills have been recreated after his image again, and from that point on, we have the power to do what God has commanded us to do, and if we refuse, and we can, then we suffer the consequences of our disobedience. 

I am not an absoluter of the Primitive Baptist persuasion, but an conditionalist, once regenerated  by the Spirit.  I will talk as much as you like, since I have been exposed to these things many years ago, and studying them for myself.

RB     

Quote from: TheKingJamesBible on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 17:10:02

God determines everything! The PREDESTINATION of EVERYTHING,
determines all FREE WILL, that anyone would ever have? And God determines all PREDESTINATION. Therefore it is a truth, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

This is your basic premise and you provide no evidence to support it.

Therefore you have provided no proof.

TKJB - you are using the WRONG logic framework.  You are using Aristotelian logic (deductive, inductive) rather than Hebraic Block Logic (adductive) which is the logic of the bible. God has absolutely predetermined everything and we absolutely have freedom of choice.  In Hebraic logic that is not a contradiction.

=========================

ETA:  God does not tell us to do something we cannot do. In Deut we are told to choose life, in Joshua we are told to choose who we will serve, God or Baal, and in 2 Sam, David is given a choice directly from God.   Since God will not give us something to do that we cannot do, we have a real choice.  Even though God has already determined everything.

Deuteronomy 30:19  I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Joshua 24:15  If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

2 Samuel 24:12  "Go and speak to David, 'Thus the Lord says, "I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you."'"

Your proof depends on the assumption that "God determines everything."  This is an incorrect assumption and hence your proof is incorrect.

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:26:08
Your proof depends on the assumption that "God determines everything."  This is an incorrect assumption and hence your proof is incorrect.

Actually it IS correct:

Heb 2.7 "You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
       You have crowned him with glory and honor,
       And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8a   You have put all things in subjection under his feet."

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.

My God is big enough to violate what we think are the laws of logic.  He is big enough to both completely determine EVERYTHING and still give me a REAL choice, not just some sham illusion of choice.

Quote from: TheKingJamesBible on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 23:18:41

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 22:29:57
Predestined is not the same thing as predetermined.

When you prove that Predestined is not the same thing as predetermined then you may claim it as the truth.  But till then in this debate it is just your unproven opinion!

This is your thread and argument - it falls to you to demonstrate that you have defined the words correctly.  I do not believe you have.  Convince me.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:36:17

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:26:08
Your proof depends on the assumption that "God determines everything."  This is an incorrect assumption and hence your proof is incorrect.

Actually it IS correct:

Heb 2.7 "You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
       You have crowned him with glory and honor,
       And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8a   You have put all things in subjection under his feet."

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.

My God is big enough to violate what we think are the laws of logic.  He is big enough to both completely determine EVERYTHING and still give me a REAL choice, not just some sham illusion of choice.

CAN is not the same thing as DOES.

Just because God CAN determine anything/everything, does not necessarily mean that He DOES so.  I'm pretty sure that He doesn't, actually.

Jarrod

IF the opening thread were correct, then the Bible is nonsense.  There is no reason for the Ten Commandments, as we have no control over anything we do.  There is no reason for any of the 'if...then' warnings, because we have no control over anything we do.  To tell the people "Choose this day...." is nonsense, since no one could.  And Jesus statement, "If you love me, you will obey me" is pure nonsense since no one can do other than what he or she has been pre-determined to do.

The opening statement is, in short, a violent slander on God's character and person and a straight denial of His Word.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:36:17

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:26:08
Your proof depends on the assumption that "God determines everything."  This is an incorrect assumption and hence your proof is incorrect.

Actually it IS correct:

Heb 2.7 "You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
       You have crowned him with glory and honor,
       And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8a   You have put all things in subjection under his feet."

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.

My God is big enough to violate what we think are the laws of logic.  He is big enough to both completely determine EVERYTHING and still give me a REAL choice, not just some sham illusion of choice.

That depends on your understanding of "determines" and of "subjection". I am a subject of the Queen (in the UK) but that does mean the the Queen determines all I do.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:36:17

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:26:08
Your proof depends on the assumption that "God determines everything."  This is an incorrect assumption and hence your proof is incorrect.

Actually it IS correct:

Heb 2.7 "You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
       You have crowned him with glory and honor,
       And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8a   You have put all things in subjection under his feet."

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.

My God is big enough to violate what we think are the laws of logic.  He is big enough to both completely determine EVERYTHING and still give me a REAL choice, not just some sham illusion of choice.

What my 4-year-old daughter wears to school is subject to my control.  However, I let her choose and do not determine it for her, even though I could.

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 22:19:15
What my 4-year-old daughter wears to school is subject to my control.  However, I let her choose and do not determine it for her, even though I could.

You are not God who even controls time and can see our beginning and end simultaneously.   You cannot set aside the laws of nature (listed as miracles in scripture)

HE can and regularly does.

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 05:41:24

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 22:19:15
What my 4-year-old daughter wears to school is subject to my control.  However, I let her choose and do not determine it for her, even though I could.

You are not God who even controls time and can see our beginning and end simultaneously.   You cannot set aside the laws of nature (listed as miracles in scripture)

HE can and regularly does.

My point that being able to control something (subjection) is not the same as controlling something (determination).

Quote from: winsome on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 05:33:09

Quote from: TheKingJamesBible on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 17:10:02

God determines everything! The PREDESTINATION of EVERYTHING,
determines all FREE WILL, that anyone would ever have? And God determines all PREDESTINATION. Therefore it is a truth, that all things are predetermined before they occur or take place!

Where is your evidence to support this claim you are making?  You cannot say that he has no evidence then make claims yourself with no evidence! Besides if you read his opening post you are required to prove that his Proofs are false! Which you have not even proved your own opinions are true!

This is your basic premise and you provide no evidence to support it.

Therefore you have provided no proof.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 05:36:55
TKJB - you are using the WRONG logic framework.  You are using Aristotelian logic (deductive, inductive) rather than Hebraic Block Logic (adductive) which is the logic of the bible. God has absolutely predetermined everything and we absolutely have freedom of choice.  In Hebraic logic that is not a contradiction.

=========================

ETA:  God does not tell us to do something we cannot do. In Deut we are told to choose life, in Joshua we are told to choose who we will serve, God or Baal, and in 2 Sam, David is given a choice directly from God.   Since God will not give us something to do that we cannot do, we have a real choice.  Even though God has already determined everything.

Deuteronomy 30:19  I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Joshua 24:15  If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

2 Samuel 24:12  "Go and speak to David, 'Thus the Lord says, "I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you."'"

Please follow the debate procedure outlined in post 1! Thank you!

If you believe in FREE WILL and want to try to defeat my PROOFS...
please state your strongest argument in support of your case. Then I will post a rebuttal. We will take turns and follow the debate procedure of the thread till one can not go any further with their argument!

Posting any statement then assuming that it is the truth and should be counted as such in a debate by your opponent is absurd and worthless.... first you prove what you said as the truth IS THE TRUTH...then you can use it as the truth!

To further your argument!

HERE ARE THE PROOFS...

PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!


PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

Taking a verse from the bible and then posting it and expecting your opponent in a debate to automatically agree that it proves you right and them wrong is absurd and worthless. When you post a verse...you first must prove that it is true then that it prove that what you said is true! Then you can use it as the truth

In a debate...only what can be proved is accepted as truth!
Anything else is merely speculation!

Please follow the debate procedure of the thread!

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:26:08
Your proof depends on the assumption that "God determines everything."  This is an incorrect assumption and hence your proof is incorrect.

Where is your proof that proves this?

I see NONE!

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 08:04:05

Quote from: TheKingJamesBible on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 23:18:41

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Jan 07, 2014 - 22:29:57
Predestined is not the same thing as predetermined.

When you prove that Predestined is not the same thing as predetermined then you may claim it as the truth.  But till then in this debate it is just your unproven opinion!

This is your thread and argument - it falls to you to demonstrate that you have defined the words correctly.  I do not believe you have.  Convince me.

Please follow the debate procedure outlined in post 1! Thank you!

If you believe in FREE WILL and want to try to defeat my PROOFS...
please state your strongest argument in support of your case. Then I will post a rebuttal. We will take turns and follow the debate procedure of the thread till one can not go any further with their argument!

Posting any statement then assuming that it is the truth and should be counted as such in a debate by your opponent is absurd and worthless.... first you prove what you said as the truth IS THE TRUTH...then you can use it as the truth!

To further your argument!

HERE ARE THE PROOFS...

PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!


PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!

Taking a verse from the bible and then posting it and expecting your opponent in a debate to automatically agree that it proves you right and them wrong is absurd and worthless. When you post a verse...you first must prove that it is true then that it prove that what you said is true! Then you can use it as the truth

In a debate...only what can be proved is accepted as truth!
Anything else is merely speculation!

Please follow the debate procedure of the thread!

QuotePlease follow the debate procedure of the thread!

Your so-called "debate procedure" is based on a pagan greek logic module that should NEVER EVER be used to comprehend scripture.

Quote from: Helen on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 08:52:10
IF the opening thread were correct, then the Bible is nonsense.  There is no reason for the Ten Commandments, as we have no control over anything we do.  There is no reason for any of the 'if...then' warnings, because we have no control over anything we do.  To tell the people "Choose this day...." is nonsense, since no one could.  And Jesus statement, "If you love me, you will obey me" is pure nonsense since no one can do other than what he or she has been pre-determined to do.

The opening statement is, in short, a violent slander on God's character and person and a straight denial of His Word.

None of this you have said...you have proved!

When you prove your own opinion...then you claim it is the truth!

You can not demand that he proves what he says
when YOU do not prove what You say!

Besides...he has PROVED what He said.  You just cannot prove it wrong! If you could...you would!

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 10:40:29

QuotePlease follow the debate procedure of the thread!

Your so-called "debate procedure" is based on a pagan greek logic module that should NEVER EVER be used to comprehend scripture.

Now all you have to do is ...PROVE it!

have you noticed in all your claims and statement you have made here on this thread against the op...YOU HAVE NOT PROVED ANY OF IT!

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 22:19:15

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:36:17

Quote from: tpm on Wed Jan 08, 2014 - 07:26:08
Your proof depends on the assumption that "God determines everything."  This is an incorrect assumption and hence your proof is incorrect.

Actually it IS correct:

Heb 2.7 "You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
       You have crowned him with glory and honor,
       And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8a   You have put all things in subjection under his feet."

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.

My God is big enough to violate what we think are the laws of logic.  He is big enough to both completely determine EVERYTHING and still give me a REAL choice, not just some sham illusion of choice.

What my 4-year-old daughter wears to school is subject to my control.  However, I let her choose and do not determine it for her, even though I could.

Which you predetermined by letting her choose subject to your control, which is predestination!

"Prove" that we should not take the word of an idolitor?
Aristotle developed deductive reasoning and he worshiped the greek pantheon with zeus and athena etc.

How about "no other gods before Me?"

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jan 09, 2014 - 10:49:09
"Prove" that we should not take the word of an idolitor?
Aristotle developed deductive reasoning and he worshiped the greek pantheon with zeus and athena etc.

How about "no other gods before Me?"

This is spam and you are trolling the thread!

I am not "trolling" the thread. 

I am trying to get the discussion away from using pagan greek logic in favor of Hebraic block logic (adductive logic) which is the more biblical approach.

There is such a thing as a biblical "proof." One example is in Acts 21 when Paul was asked to prove that he did NOT teach diaspora Jews who came to faith to abandon the Mosaic observance.  His buying the sacrifices for 4 men proved it bibilcally.  (but not by Aristotelian standards)

This absolutely proves...undeniable without no doubt...That everything is predestined by God! When it comes right down to it! NO ONE HAS A FREE WILL OR A CHOICE IN ANYTHING! It is all predetermined by something else!! All your feelings you wants and dislikes...your emotions...everything about you...is predetermined by some other outside influence! Even when you cannot accept this as the truth! it was predetermined by something else other than YOU!

PROOF 1
How can free will be free will if it is predetermined by something else?
So that brings me to this question for all those who say they have free will! When is your free will not determined by anything else?
Give me an example!


PROOF 2
Name 1 thing that you cannot do or can do that you were not created to do? If you cannot do this then you have proved that what you can do or cannot do was predetermined before you did it or did not do it!