Christian Forums

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:11:55

The thought that he would "stand up" to me confuses me and makes me shake my head.  I can't understand a dh who wants to be like this with his bride and a bride who likes to be treated like a spoiled child who needs continued parenting though she is an adult.

What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I do see what you're saying though, actually. I thought I did answer chosenone's question and did so by referencing many wives who say they are either quite happy with their husbands, want them to STAY masculine and make an effort to "keep them that way," and the fact that many wives complain about their husbands not being more driven and passionate leaders.

There is just this annoying habit that some people have to think they speak on behalf of their gender, like something about the way they are is the definition of male or female.

Apart from that, a husband should want to treasure his wife and preserve her like his own flesh (the reverse is also true) and keep her interests firmly in mind, as loving and taking care of her is his goal in life as much as anything.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:34:47
What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I think it would have been WAY best for him to have done so...but I don't see the potential of him saying "no, I dont' think that is the best way to handle this.  Lets trust God" as "putting his foot down".

Putting ones foot down, or standing up to someone implies harsh "My way or the highway" "Im the boss applesauce" kinda language and demeanor that I just can't understand working well inside of a healthy marriage. 

I find my dh's masculinity quite intact, though he choose to be gentle when dealing with the kids and I.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:43:00

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:34:47
What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I think it would have been WAY best for him to have done so...but I don't see the potential of him saying "no, I dont' think that is the best way to handle this.  Lets trust God" as "putting his foot down".

Putting ones foot down, or standing up to someone implies harsh "My way or the highway" "Im the boss applesauce" kinda language and demeanor that I just can't understand working well inside of a healthy marriage. 

I find my dh's masculinity quite intact, though he choose to be gentle when dealing with the kids and I.

Now i am confused.
Imagine my wide comes to me and offers me her young egyptian servant.
Well, the "manly" thing to do is to accept, right?

But now i understand that the expected "manly" thing would be the opposite?

Poor us...there simply is no way to please a woman.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:43:00

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:34:47
What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I think it would have been WAY best for him to have done so...but I don't see the potential of him saying "no, I dont' think that is the best way to handle this.  Lets trust God" as "putting his foot down".

Putting ones foot down, or standing up to someone implies harsh "My way or the highway" "Im the boss applesauce" kinda language and demeanor that I just can't understand working well inside of a healthy marriage. 

I find my dh's masculinity quite intact, though he choose to be gentle when dealing with the kids and I.

The point being, doing for Sarai something she thought would make her happy was not in fact what would be best for her, and when the consequences came back at her, she straight-up blamed Abraham for it, without any indication of acknowledging that she came up with the idea to begin with.

I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there.. And imaginations are just abusing the intentions of "husbands love your wives" to whatever they think is the definition of "love," and chosenone's unbelievably distorted comment that Jesus never told anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus told people what to do constantly and as the king of kings he completely rules over the church.

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:54:46

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:43:00

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:34:47
What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I think it would have been WAY best for him to have done so...but I don't see the potential of him saying "no, I dont' think that is the best way to handle this.  Lets trust God" as "putting his foot down".

Putting ones foot down, or standing up to someone implies harsh "My way or the highway" "Im the boss applesauce" kinda language and demeanor that I just can't understand working well inside of a healthy marriage. 

I find my dh's masculinity quite intact, though he choose to be gentle when dealing with the kids and I.

Now i am confused.
Imagine my wide comes to me and offers me her young egyptian servant.
Well, the "manly" thing to do is to accept, right?

But now i understand that the expected "manly" thing would be the opposite?

Poor us...there simply is no way to please a woman.

Many women are very pleased by their husbands' fortitude and not needing to get their sense of purpose from their wives. You can't take everything at face-value and that's part of what being a leader is all about--Jesus responded to requests often, but that doesn't mean he would just do for others whatever people THOUGHT would make them happy.

Every leader has to suffer disapproval from those who follow for the sake of those who follow, and that's part of what love is--that's what Jesus did too.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 08:55:41

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 01:35:44

What is your definition of a godly husband and father Cally? What is your definition of a 'real man'?

I had a father who was demanding and sometimes angry and who expected his wife to wait on him to a large extent, then I had a first husband who was sometimes angry and demanding and hard to live with. I can tell you that I was miserable for much of the time with those men. They weren't loving as Jesus is, nor did they lead by example.

In my observation of single people, I notice this. The time that would be spent on spouses and children were they married, is spent on persuing what they want to do. Some single people can be far more selfish than the married, because they need think of no one but themselves. Once they marry, they have to suddenly think of their spouses, and when they have children, they have to give even more of their time and energy to be a good dad.  Suddenly
its NOT all about them, but about others, and sacrifice and real love and giving and selflessness.

There are many women who complain about not feeling like their husbands are good leaders. I have heard many WIVES commend husbands who actually stand up to their wives, as it sometimes later proved that the husband was being firm about doing or not doing something that was very good for them both.

If you want to talk as if you speak on behalf of all women here, forget it. Many women are extremely happy to have husbands who instill a very strong sense of purpose--so I'm told (by women), and talk about how they LOVE their husbands' masculinity and "ladies, let's keep them that way!" (acknowledging the fact that many wives are quite counterproductive to that end).

Cally with respect, you are still very young and have never been married. I have known far far more women/couples/marriages than you in the church over the last 57 years believe me, and have seen and heard many many things spoken and done. I have had many many married friends and close girlfriends, and we have talked and prayed extensively about their lives and marriages and children.
The best marriages I have encountered have been ones where the husbands are loving, kind, unselfish, respectful and godly towards their wives and in their actions towards others. I am blessed to know some amazing marriages that are strong and loving and where God is glorified. I have also been married for nearly all of my adult life and have learn SO much from that.

REAL strength of character, is strength that is inside and not on show or arrogantly displayed to others. REAL strength is having masses of integrity and high moral vales and honesty and always doing what is right. Praying to God and following Him closely, putting the wife and children before themselves. REAL strength isn't needing to boss about or order about or force others to do what they want, but to earn the respect of others by their lives and the way they live. I respect my husband far more than I have ever respected a man before in my life, and yet he has never acted in a way that you seem to think he must to be 'manly'. He is the most 'manly' man I have known, merely through his godly life and ways and integrity and his total trust in God.

I am still wanting to know what your definition of being 'manly' is.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52And imaginations are just abusing the intentions of "husbands love your wives" to whatever they think is the definition of "love,"

Including yours?

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:43:00

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:34:47
What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I think it would have been WAY best for him to have done so...but I don't see the potential of him saying "no, I dont' think that is the best way to handle this.  Lets trust God" as "putting his foot down".

Putting ones foot down, or standing up to someone implies harsh "My way or the highway" "Im the boss applesauce" kinda language and demeanor that I just can't understand working well inside of a healthy marriage. 

I find my dh's masculinity quite intact, though he choose to be gentle when dealing with the kids and I.

The point being, doing for Sarai something she thought would make her happy was not in fact what would be best for her, and when the consequences came back at her, she straight-up blamed Abraham for it, without any indication of acknowledging that she came up with the idea to begin with.

I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there.. And imaginations are just abusing the intentions of "husbands love your wives" to whatever they think is the definition of "love," and chosenone's unbelievably distorted comment that Jesus never told anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus told people what to do constantly and as the king of kings he completely rules over the church.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:34:47

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:11:55

The thought that he would "stand up" to me confuses me and makes me shake my head.  I can't understand a dh who wants to be like this with his bride and a bride who likes to be treated like a spoiled child who needs continued parenting though she is an adult.

What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I do see what you're saying though, actually. I thought I did answer chosenone's question and did so by referencing many wives who say they are either quite happy with their husbands, want them to STAY masculine and make an effort to "keep them that way," and the fact that many wives complain about their husbands not being more driven and passionate leaders.

There is just this annoying habit that some people have to think they speak on behalf of their gender, like something about the way they are is the definition of male or female.

Apart from that, a husband should want to treasure his wife and preserve her like his own flesh (the reverse is also true) and keep her interests firmly in mind, as loving and taking care of her is his goal in life as much as anything.

Both Sarah and Abraham were wrong in that instance and look at the trouble that decision caused. Any husband who is asked to do something immoral and sinful should just say no, I am not doing that, just as we all should. 
I can only speak about the hundreds of women I have know in my life, and the hundreds of marriages that I have seen in action, and of my own experiences in marriage. After 57 years, most of them in the church, you get a pretty good idea about which men make the best husbands and have the happiest marriages, and its NOT the demanding, bossy arrogant ones that for sure.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:04:58

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:54:46

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:43:00

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:34:47
What if Abraham said to Sarai, his wife "No, I'm not going to sleep with Hagar" whereas he did what his wife told him and she ended up furious with Abraham later on for doing exactly what she said ("the Lord judge between us!")?

I think it would have been WAY best for him to have done so...but I don't see the potential of him saying "no, I dont' think that is the best way to handle this.  Lets trust God" as "putting his foot down".

Putting ones foot down, or standing up to someone implies harsh "My way or the highway" "Im the boss applesauce" kinda language and demeanor that I just can't understand working well inside of a healthy marriage. 

I find my dh's masculinity quite intact, though he choose to be gentle when dealing with the kids and I.

Now i am confused.
Imagine my wide comes to me and offers me her young egyptian servant.
Well, the "manly" thing to do is to accept, right?

But now i understand that the expected "manly" thing would be the opposite?

Poor us...there simply is no way to please a woman.

Many women are very pleased by their husbands' fortitude and not needing to get their sense of purpose from their wives. You can't take everything at face-value and that's part of what being a leader is all about--Jesus responded to requests often, but that doesn't mean he would just do for others whatever people THOUGHT would make them happy.

Every leader has to suffer disapproval from those who follow for the sake of those who follow, and that's part of what love is--that's what Jesus did too.

Well, you lost me here.
Am gonna do the manly thing and leave you here to argue with the girls.
I'm gonna grab a beer and burn a steak on the bbq.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:08:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 08:55:41

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 01:35:44

What is your definition of a godly husband and father Cally? What is your definition of a 'real man'?

I had a father who was demanding and sometimes angry and who expected his wife to wait on him to a large extent, then I had a first husband who was sometimes angry and demanding and hard to live with. I can tell you that I was miserable for much of the time with those men. They weren't loving as Jesus is, nor did they lead by example.

In my observation of single people, I notice this. The time that would be spent on spouses and children were they married, is spent on persuing what they want to do. Some single people can be far more selfish than the married, because they need think of no one but themselves. Once they marry, they have to suddenly think of their spouses, and when they have children, they have to give even more of their time and energy to be a good dad.  Suddenly
its NOT all about them, but about others, and sacrifice and real love and giving and selflessness.

There are many women who complain about not feeling like their husbands are good leaders. I have heard many WIVES commend husbands who actually stand up to their wives, as it sometimes later proved that the husband was being firm about doing or not doing something that was very good for them both.

If you want to talk as if you speak on behalf of all women here, forget it. Many women are extremely happy to have husbands who instill a very strong sense of purpose--so I'm told (by women), and talk about how they LOVE their husbands' masculinity and "ladies, let's keep them that way!" (acknowledging the fact that many wives are quite counterproductive to that end).

Cally with respect, you are still very young and have never been married. I have known far far more women/couples/marriages than you in the church over the last 57 years believe me, and have seen and heard many many things spoken and done. I have had many many married friends and close girlfriends, and we have talked and prayed extensively about their lives and marriages and children.
The best marriages I have encountered have been ones where the husbands are loving, kind, unselfish, respectful and godly towards their wives and in their actions towards others. I am blessed to know some amazing marriages that are strong and loving and where God is glorified. I have also been married for nearly all of my adult life and have learn SO much from that.

REAL strength of character, is strength that is inside and not on show or arrogantly displayed to others. REAL strength is having masses of integrity and high moral vales and honesty and always doing what is right. Praying to God and following Him closely, putting the wife and children before themselves. REAL strength isn't needing to boss about or order about or force others to do what they want, but to earn the respect of others by their lives and the way they live. I respect my husband far more than I have ever respected a man before in my life, and yet he has never acted in a way that you seem to think he must to be 'manly'. He is the most 'manly' man I have known, merely through his godly life and ways and integrity and his total trust in God.

I am still wanting to know what your definition of being 'manly' is.

chosenone, for a lot of reasons, your diagnoses carry very little meaning to me. It is not hard to find a plethora of folks who consider their experience to be the ultimate judge and evidence for their conclusions, and quite a few people have experience and conclusions that disagrees with yours. Yes, I realize this is your pet subject too.

My definition of manly is all over this thread and I'd insist on an uninterpreted acknowledgement of what I have already said before going into an endless cycle of repeating myself. You are not paying attention to what I actually say before you launch into your own sermons.

But while we're at it, what's your definition of a good wife versus a bad one? I find the answer to that all over Scripture, of course.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

I was married to Cally's type of 'manly man' for 20 years.  He would run his finger over the bureau in the bedroom to make sure it was dusted.  He was out for beers with the guys so much I learned to automatically wake up at 2 in the morning (when the bars closed in California) to listen for his truck.  He was a contractor  and big and strong and handsome with the biggest smile ever.  Folk loved him.  He was an usher in the church and on the church baseball team. 

And he would ask me how it felt to be wrong 90% of the time.  When I was ten pounds past my high school weight (I modeled shortly after high school), I was a fat cow.  When the children handed him their drawings "for you, Daddy," he would glance at them and put them aside. 

And then one evening he told me he was moving out.  He said he wanted time to be alone with the Lord.  Right.  She was one of his many women.  I had suspected but not known for sure, especially when he swore black was white there was no one else. 

And in the years that followed, each one of the children, at different times, have told me stories about how he ridiculed them or ignored them or that they remembered him always being angry with them.

He was the manly man.

I am married now to a man who is about half an inch shorter than I am.  He is gentle, quiet, and the greatest healing force this family has ever had.  I am arthritic, so he has taken it on himself to do the vacuuming for me.  I am a morning person and he is an evening person, so he does the dinner dishes and puts our adult retarded son to bed.  He always remembers to turn on the electric blanket on my side of the bed and puts pillows all over it so that when I get in bed it will be like a giant heating pad on my sore back. 

He is also a renowned scientist who is liked by almost everyone who knows him, whether or not they agree with his ideas.  He is brilliant, quiet, kind, funny, loving, and we take care of each other.  We are a team, in his work, around the house, with our son, with the animals. 

He may not be your kind of 'manly' man, Cally, but he is the person I most look up to and respect in the world.  I treasure him.  And there are a number of my friends who have said rather bluntly, "I wish my husband were like yours." 

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:20:38

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:08:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 08:55:41

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 01:35:44

What is your definition of a godly husband and father Cally? What is your definition of a 'real man'?

I had a father who was demanding and sometimes angry and who expected his wife to wait on him to a large extent, then I had a first husband who was sometimes angry and demanding and hard to live with. I can tell you that I was miserable for much of the time with those men. They weren't loving as Jesus is, nor did they lead by example.

In my observation of single people, I notice this. The time that would be spent on spouses and children were they married, is spent on persuing what they want to do. Some single people can be far more selfish than the married, because they need think of no one but themselves. Once they marry, they have to suddenly think of their spouses, and when they have children, they have to give even more of their time and energy to be a good dad.  Suddenly
its NOT all about them, but about others, and sacrifice and real love and giving and selflessness.

There are many women who complain about not feeling like their husbands are good leaders. I have heard many WIVES commend husbands who actually stand up to their wives, as it sometimes later proved that the husband was being firm about doing or not doing something that was very good for them both.

If you want to talk as if you speak on behalf of all women here, forget it. Many women are extremely happy to have husbands who instill a very strong sense of purpose--so I'm told (by women), and talk about how they LOVE their husbands' masculinity and "ladies, let's keep them that way!" (acknowledging the fact that many wives are quite counterproductive to that end).

Cally with respect, you are still very young and have never been married. I have known far far more women/couples/marriages than you in the church over the last 57 years believe me, and have seen and heard many many things spoken and done. I have had many many married friends and close girlfriends, and we have talked and prayed extensively about their lives and marriages and children.
The best marriages I have encountered have been ones where the husbands are loving, kind, unselfish, respectful and godly towards their wives and in their actions towards others. I am blessed to know some amazing marriages that are strong and loving and where God is glorified. I have also been married for nearly all of my adult life and have learn SO much from that.

REAL strength of character, is strength that is inside and not on show or arrogantly displayed to others. REAL strength is having masses of integrity and high moral vales and honesty and always doing what is right. Praying to God and following Him closely, putting the wife and children before themselves. REAL strength isn't needing to boss about or order about or force others to do what they want, but to earn the respect of others by their lives and the way they live. I respect my husband far more than I have ever respected a man before in my life, and yet he has never acted in a way that you seem to think he must to be 'manly'. He is the most 'manly' man I have known, merely through his godly life and ways and integrity and his total trust in God.

I am still wanting to know what your definition of being 'manly' is.

chosenone, for a lot of reasons, your diagnoses carry very little meaning to me. It is not hard to find a plethora of folks who consider their experience to be the ultimate judge and evidence for their conclusions, and quite a few people have experience and conclusions that disagrees with yours. Yes, I realize this is your pet subject too.

My definition of manly is all over this thread and I'd insist on an uninterpreted acknowledgement of what I have already said before going into an endless cycle of repeating myself. You are not paying attention to what I actually say before you launch into your own sermons.

But while we're at it, what's your definition of a good wife versus a bad one? I find the answer to that all over Scripture, of course.

Its not a pet subject, but its something that God has taught me a lot about over the many years I have been married. I have listened to countless good teachings about marriage, been to several marriage courses and marriage weekends, read widely on this subject, am active on a British marriage forum, and form there have heard/read so many peoples stories with so many different marriage issues.


  I merely want your own idea of what makes a man 'manly'. I know what makes a man manly, and what sort of man makes a good and godly husband and father because I see so much evidence of that in the men and marriages that I have known and now know of.

I can tell you now that a man who is bossy, authoritarian, orders his wife and children about, and who doesn't treat his wife as an equally important part of that marriage will crush his wife and their marriage.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:30:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little heart-to-heart to tell you where I'm coming from. I was born after a time when a generation claimed to fix some error in society with regards to male/female interactions (feminism, of course) for the first time on the entire face of human history, and following that we have an era in which divorce has NEVER been so high and people are going so far as to question why exactly marriage is even necessary, and why sexual relations are limited to one man and one woman (i.e. no concept of what's wrong with homosexuality).

At the same time, I examine these "social breakthroughs"--all of them--and cross-examine them with Scripture and NONE OF IT is there to be found. Not even a single time was a man or group of men rebuked by God for this "oppression of women" and this is the same God who got after Israel constantly and forcefully for countless issues, even to those as trivial as tithing (Malachi) which Jesus calls a "gnat" of an issue.

When I see people freaking out over an issue as if it were the most important issue in the universe and there isn't a word directly addressing it in Scripture, that's questionable to say the least--and then trying to abuse "husbands love your wives" as just a universal tool to call men sinners for every single action they don't like, regarding them as though men are but cannon fodder for their wives, and hype on the same passage as if the whole rest of the Bible's message of "love your neighbor as yourself" applies to women less than men.

And actually, the biggest evidence is the portrayal of Jesus as someone who just never tells anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus rules with an iron fist and brings the worst consequences to those who don't obey him (Luke 19:27). I am to Jesus as a wife is to her husband: I was created for Jesus, not vice-versa; I am fulfilled by total submission to Jesus, doing what he says exactly when and how he says it. Jesus totally has my interests in mind all the time and there's nothing he won't do for me even though I don't deserve it.

The point being, I'm going anywhere but towards a "modern enlightenment."

Quote from: Helen on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 11:50:40
I was married to Cally's type of 'manly man' for 20 years.  He would run his finger over the bureau in the bedroom to make sure it was dusted.  He was out for beers with the guys so much I learned to automatically wake up at 2 in the morning (when the bars closed in California) to listen for his truck.  He was a contractor  and big and strong and handsome with the biggest smile ever.  Folk loved him.  He was an usher in the church and on the church baseball team. 

And he would ask me how it felt to be wrong 90% of the time.  When I was ten pounds past my high school weight (I modeled shortly after high school), I was a fat cow.  When the children handed him their drawings "for you, Daddy," he would glance at them and put them aside. 

And then one evening he told me he was moving out.  He said he wanted time to be alone with the Lord.  Right.  She was one of his many women.  I had suspected but not known for sure, especially when he swore black was white there was no one else. 

And in the years that followed, each one of the children, at different times, have told me stories about how he ridiculed them or ignored them or that they remembered him always being angry with them.

He was the manly man.

I am married now to a man who is about half an inch shorter than I am.  He is gentle, quiet, and the greatest healing force this family has ever had.  I am arthritic, so he has taken it on himself to do the vacuuming for me.  I am a morning person and he is an evening person, so he does the dinner dishes and puts our adult retarded son to bed.  He always remembers to turn on the electric blanket on my side of the bed and puts pillows all over it so that when I get in bed it will be like a giant heating pad on my sore back. 

He is also a renowned scientist who is liked by almost everyone who knows him, whether or not they agree with his ideas.  He is brilliant, quiet, kind, funny, loving, and we take care of each other.  We are a team, in his work, around the house, with our son, with the animals. 

He may not be your kind of 'manly' man, Cally, but he is the person I most look up to and respect in the world.  I treasure him.  And there are a number of my friends who have said rather bluntly, "I wish my husband were like yours." 

Yes and the worlds idea of a 'manly man' is very different from the Christian idea, because Christian guys have Jesus' example to follow of servant hood and of thinking of others first, and of honestly and integrity and decency.

Many in the USA in particular think that the huntin' shootin' fishin' drinkin' type of guy is 'manly'. Not so. Far from it. It takes real inner strength and strong character to be a godly man, and a man who has to resort to ordering others about all the time and being bossy and overpowering isn't doing his God given task very well.  A godly man who leads by example and who is living a godly life will not need to act that way.
He will be respected for who he is, and will never need to demand respect.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 11:59:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:30:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little heart-to-heart to tell you where I'm coming from. I was born after a time when a generation claimed to fix some error in society with regards to male/female interactions (feminism, of course) for the first time on the entire face of human history, and following that we have an era in which divorce has NEVER been so high and people are going so far as to question why exactly marriage is even necessary, and why sexual relations are limited to one man and one woman (i.e. no concept of what's wrong with homosexuality).

At the same time, I examine these "social breakthroughs"--all of them--and cross-examine them with Scripture and NONE OF IT is there to be found. Not even a single time was a man or group of men rebuked by God for this "oppression of women" and this is the same God who got after Israel constantly and forcefully for countless issues, even to those as trivial as tithing (Malachi) which Jesus calls a "gnat" of an issue.

When I see people freaking out over an issue as if it were the most important issue in the universe and there isn't a word directly addressing it in Scripture, that's questionable to say the least--and then trying to abuse "husbands love your wives" as just a universal tool to call men sinners for every single action they don't like, regarding them as though men are but cannon fodder for their wives, and hype on the same passage as if the whole rest of the Bible's message of "love your neighbor as yourself" applies to women less than men.

And actually, the biggest evidence is the portrayal of Jesus as someone who just never tells anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus rules with an iron fist and brings the worst consequences to those who don't obey him (Luke 19:27). I am to Jesus as a wife is to her husband: I was created for Jesus, not vice-versa; I am fulfilled by total submission to Jesus, doing what he says exactly when and how he says it. Jesus totally has my interests in mind all the time and there's nothing he won't do for me even though I don't deserve it.

The point being, I'm going anywhere but towards a "modern enlightenment."

holy smokes...

whew...

LOTS of anger here...

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 11:59:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:30:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little heart-to-heart to tell you where I'm coming from. I was born after a time when a generation claimed to fix some error in society with regards to male/female interactions (feminism, of course) for the first time on the entire face of human history, and following that we have an era in which divorce has NEVER been so high and people are going so far as to question why exactly marriage is even necessary, and why sexual relations are limited to one man and one woman (i.e. no concept of what's wrong with homosexuality).

At the same time, I examine these "social breakthroughs"--all of them--and cross-examine them with Scripture and NONE OF IT is there to be found. Not even a single time was a man or group of men rebuked by God for this "oppression of women" and this is the same God who got after Israel constantly and forcefully for countless issues, even to those as trivial as tithing (Malachi) which Jesus calls a "gnat" of an issue.

When I see people freaking out over an issue as if it were the most important issue in the universe and there isn't a word directly addressing it in Scripture, that's questionable to say the least--and then trying to abuse "husbands love your wives" as just a universal tool to call men sinners for every single action they don't like, regarding them as though men are but cannon fodder for their wives, and hype on the same passage as if the whole rest of the Bible's message of "love your neighbor as yourself" applies to women less than men.

And actually, the biggest evidence is the portrayal of Jesus as someone who just never tells anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus rules with an iron fist and brings the worst consequences to those who don't obey him (Luke 19:27). I am to Jesus as a wife is to her husband: I was created for Jesus, not vice-versa; I am fulfilled by total submission to Jesus, doing what he says exactly when and how he says it. Jesus totally has my interests in mind all the time and there's nothing he won't do for me even though I don't deserve it.

The point being, I'm going anywhere but towards a "modern enlightenment."

Jesus never once repressed women, spoke down to them, nor treated them as anything but equal and important and respected members of his kingdom. In telling men to love their wives as He loves the church by giving up His life for her, He was stating very clearly what a husbands task is. To give himself up for his wife and family, to put them first, to love his wife sacrificially.

Does Jesus repress us? Does He order us about? Does He demand obedience? I don't see Jesus do that anywhere.

Jesus rules with an iron fist? That's not the way Jesus acts toward His children, and its not the Jesus who I have know and loved for 42 years.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 12:11:07

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 11:59:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:30:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little heart-to-heart to tell you where I'm coming from. I was born after a time when a generation claimed to fix some error in society with regards to male/female interactions (feminism, of course) for the first time on the entire face of human history, and following that we have an era in which divorce has NEVER been so high and people are going so far as to question why exactly marriage is even necessary, and why sexual relations are limited to one man and one woman (i.e. no concept of what's wrong with homosexuality).

At the same time, I examine these "social breakthroughs"--all of them--and cross-examine them with Scripture and NONE OF IT is there to be found. Not even a single time was a man or group of men rebuked by God for this "oppression of women" and this is the same God who got after Israel constantly and forcefully for countless issues, even to those as trivial as tithing (Malachi) which Jesus calls a "gnat" of an issue.

When I see people freaking out over an issue as if it were the most important issue in the universe and there isn't a word directly addressing it in Scripture, that's questionable to say the least--and then trying to abuse "husbands love your wives" as just a universal tool to call men sinners for every single action they don't like, regarding them as though men are but cannon fodder for their wives, and hype on the same passage as if the whole rest of the Bible's message of "love your neighbor as yourself" applies to women less than men.

And actually, the biggest evidence is the portrayal of Jesus as someone who just never tells anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus rules with an iron fist and brings the worst consequences to those who don't obey him (Luke 19:27). I am to Jesus as a wife is to her husband: I was created for Jesus, not vice-versa; I am fulfilled by total submission to Jesus, doing what he says exactly when and how he says it. Jesus totally has my interests in mind all the time and there's nothing he won't do for me even though I don't deserve it.

The point being, I'm going anywhere but towards a "modern enlightenment."

Jesus never once repressed women, spoke down to them, nor treated them as anything but equal and important and respected members of his kingdom. In telling men to love their wives as He loves the church by giving up His life for her, He was stating very clearly what a husbands task is. To give himself up for his wife and family, to put them first, to love his wife sacrificially.

Does Jesus repress us? Does He order us about? Does He demand obedience? I don't see Jesus do that anywhere.

Jesus rules with an iron fist? That's not the way Jesus acts toward His children, and its not the Jesus who I have know and loved for 42 years.

Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"


"If you love me, keep my commands.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 12:04:21

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 11:59:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:30:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little heart-to-heart to tell you where I'm coming from. I was born after a time when a generation claimed to fix some error in society with regards to male/female interactions (feminism, of course) for the first time on the entire face of human history, and following that we have an era in which divorce has NEVER been so high and people are going so far as to question why exactly marriage is even necessary, and why sexual relations are limited to one man and one woman (i.e. no concept of what's wrong with homosexuality).

At the same time, I examine these "social breakthroughs"--all of them--and cross-examine them with Scripture and NONE OF IT is there to be found. Not even a single time was a man or group of men rebuked by God for this "oppression of women" and this is the same God who got after Israel constantly and forcefully for countless issues, even to those as trivial as tithing (Malachi) which Jesus calls a "gnat" of an issue.

When I see people freaking out over an issue as if it were the most important issue in the universe and there isn't a word directly addressing it in Scripture, that's questionable to say the least--and then trying to abuse "husbands love your wives" as just a universal tool to call men sinners for every single action they don't like, regarding them as though men are but cannon fodder for their wives, and hype on the same passage as if the whole rest of the Bible's message of "love your neighbor as yourself" applies to women less than men.

And actually, the biggest evidence is the portrayal of Jesus as someone who just never tells anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus rules with an iron fist and brings the worst consequences to those who don't obey him (Luke 19:27). I am to Jesus as a wife is to her husband: I was created for Jesus, not vice-versa; I am fulfilled by total submission to Jesus, doing what he says exactly when and how he says it. Jesus totally has my interests in mind all the time and there's nothing he won't do for me even though I don't deserve it.

The point being, I'm going anywhere but towards a "modern enlightenment."

holy smokes...

whew...

LOTS of anger here...

Then you don't respond to reason or Scripture, period. This isn't about "anger" but following Scripture on a narrow path against the direction of the world, and I gave you very good reasons for going against the mob's conclusions.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 13:11:44

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 12:04:21

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 11:59:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:30:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little heart-to-heart to tell you where I'm coming from. I was born after a time when a generation claimed to fix some error in society with regards to male/female interactions (feminism, of course) for the first time on the entire face of human history, and following that we have an era in which divorce has NEVER been so high and people are going so far as to question why exactly marriage is even necessary, and why sexual relations are limited to one man and one woman (i.e. no concept of what's wrong with homosexuality).

At the same time, I examine these "social breakthroughs"--all of them--and cross-examine them with Scripture and NONE OF IT is there to be found. Not even a single time was a man or group of men rebuked by God for this "oppression of women" and this is the same God who got after Israel constantly and forcefully for countless issues, even to those as trivial as tithing (Malachi) which Jesus calls a "gnat" of an issue.

When I see people freaking out over an issue as if it were the most important issue in the universe and there isn't a word directly addressing it in Scripture, that's questionable to say the least--and then trying to abuse "husbands love your wives" as just a universal tool to call men sinners for every single action they don't like, regarding them as though men are but cannon fodder for their wives, and hype on the same passage as if the whole rest of the Bible's message of "love your neighbor as yourself" applies to women less than men.

And actually, the biggest evidence is the portrayal of Jesus as someone who just never tells anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus rules with an iron fist and brings the worst consequences to those who don't obey him (Luke 19:27). I am to Jesus as a wife is to her husband: I was created for Jesus, not vice-versa; I am fulfilled by total submission to Jesus, doing what he says exactly when and how he says it. Jesus totally has my interests in mind all the time and there's nothing he won't do for me even though I don't deserve it.

The point being, I'm going anywhere but towards a "modern enlightenment."

holy smokes...

whew...

LOTS of anger here...

Then you don't respond to reason or Scripture, period. This isn't about "anger" but following Scripture on a narrow path against the direction of the world, and I gave you very good reasons for going against the mob's conclusions.

Following scripture against the direction of the world?

Husbands being kind, not lording over their wives and families, and giving up the things they did as single men and childhood is the way of the world?

You seem to disbelieve women were oppressed ever.  I think that is interesting.  We aren't now in Western culture, I'll give you that, but back then, and in other societies women were/are treated as sub human and that is not right.  God gave Eve to Adam to be his helper suitable, but after the fall she became property.  NO person should be treated like that.

Divorce breaks God's heart, but He allowed it due to the hardness of hearts of the individuals involved.  Hardness of heart is not limited to the one who files, but includes the hard heart that will not listen, will not consider, will not love his spouse in an understanding way ever.

This whole thread has become odd to me.  Not too long ago, I would have understood where both sides are coming from.

More recently, I've come to understand that a marriage is a covenant and a contract.  So, like any contract, however you want to set it up is ok, as long as you do actually set it up in advance!  Expectations mean a lot.  But almost everyone enters into marriage without communicating their expectations to their partner.  Then they expect the other person to meet those expectations.

People aren't mind-readers.  Some things need to be said!  If one wants to make love twice a week and be held every night until they fall asleep... need to say so!  If one expects to spend free time after work together only 2-3 nights a week and be free the rest of the time - that should be something the other knows.

Maybe the two sides can work out a compromise.  Maybe they can even do it before 'til death do us part.'

Jarrod

Jarrod, no matter what you think you have 'set up' in advance, surprises happen.  My husband, for instance, was found to have an inherited disability which has left him so photosensitive that he bleeds if he is out in the sun for any real time at all.  We had no idea when we were married, and we shared the yard work.  We no longer share it.  It's mostly mine.  In the meantime, he does a lot of the housework, God bless him.  Being a team means you fill in for each other's weaknesses, and you really cannot anticipate them in advance most of the time.

I get that Helen.  It's always a work in progress.  Myself, I'm divorced.  And engaged. 

Things are very different the second time.  In a good way.  We have some idea of what the other expects.  Surprises we can deal with, not least because we know what we are getting from the other person.

Jarrod

While I agree that a couple getting married do need to talk and talk about what each expects, things can and do change after marriage.  I was reading a sad story the other day from a lady who had come for advise because her husband didn't want children, and while she agreed to that before marriage, she was now, several years later, really wanting a child, while he still refused to consider it.
So marriage does need to change as we change and mature and learn more. What we think is important when we are in our 20's, may not be important in our 40's or 50's and visa versa.
However if we marry a decent, kind, honest person of integrity and good character, that will last for life. I have no fear of what the future may hold with my husband, because he is such a godly and decent guy.   

I know the decent and kind way he acted with his ex wife, despite her not treating him well at all. I saw him letting her have the house because he knew God didn't want them to go to court and fight over it. Now THATS a godly man, not one who demands his 'rights' and money and assets to the detriment of the other spouse. He may have come to me with nothing materially, but to me, a man of integrity, fairness, decency and honestly, is priceless.

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 13:18:55

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 13:11:44

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 12:04:21

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 11:59:26

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:30:13

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:22:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 10:14:29

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:57:52
I don't see Scripture addressing "contentious husbands" or warnings to husbands not to be "too much in charge." It isn't there..

This makes me very uncomfortable. Holy smokes!  PEOPLE are admonished HOW to behave and treat others all *over* scripture! 

Yeah . . . and?

and what you wrote makes me very uncomfortable! As if God has given husbands a free pass to be as tough on, as controlling, as overbearing as they wish to be..because there isn't a scripture that specifically mentions a contentious husband.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little heart-to-heart to tell you where I'm coming from. I was born after a time when a generation claimed to fix some error in society with regards to male/female interactions (feminism, of course) for the first time on the entire face of human history, and following that we have an era in which divorce has NEVER been so high and people are going so far as to question why exactly marriage is even necessary, and why sexual relations are limited to one man and one woman (i.e. no concept of what's wrong with homosexuality).

At the same time, I examine these "social breakthroughs"--all of them--and cross-examine them with Scripture and NONE OF IT is there to be found. Not even a single time was a man or group of men rebuked by God for this "oppression of women" and this is the same God who got after Israel constantly and forcefully for countless issues, even to those as trivial as tithing (Malachi) which Jesus calls a "gnat" of an issue.

When I see people freaking out over an issue as if it were the most important issue in the universe and there isn't a word directly addressing it in Scripture, that's questionable to say the least--and then trying to abuse "husbands love your wives" as just a universal tool to call men sinners for every single action they don't like, regarding them as though men are but cannon fodder for their wives, and hype on the same passage as if the whole rest of the Bible's message of "love your neighbor as yourself" applies to women less than men.

And actually, the biggest evidence is the portrayal of Jesus as someone who just never tells anyone what to do. Are you kidding? Jesus rules with an iron fist and brings the worst consequences to those who don't obey him (Luke 19:27). I am to Jesus as a wife is to her husband: I was created for Jesus, not vice-versa; I am fulfilled by total submission to Jesus, doing what he says exactly when and how he says it. Jesus totally has my interests in mind all the time and there's nothing he won't do for me even though I don't deserve it.

The point being, I'm going anywhere but towards a "modern enlightenment."

holy smokes...

whew...

LOTS of anger here...

Then you don't respond to reason or Scripture, period. This isn't about "anger" but following Scripture on a narrow path against the direction of the world, and I gave you very good reasons for going against the mob's conclusions.

Following scripture against the direction of the world?

Husbands being kind, not lording over their wives and families, and giving up the things they did as single men and childhood is the way of the world?

You seem to disbelieve women were oppressed ever.  I think that is interesting.  We aren't now in Western culture, I'll give you that, but back then, and in other societies women were/are treated as sub human and that is not right.  God gave Eve to Adam to be his helper suitable, but after the fall she became property.  NO person should be treated like that.

Divorce breaks God's heart, but He allowed it due to the hardness of hearts of the individuals involved.  Hardness of heart is not limited to the one who files, but includes the hard heart that will not listen, will not consider, will not love his spouse in an understanding way ever.

"Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Gen 3:16

This is supposedly the dreaded bad thing that God supposedly prophesied but made no follow-up on whatsoever, right? Because someone who rules over someone else cannot POSSIBLY be loving them at the same time, right? If so, prepare to have your mind blown by the words if "Mr. Nice Guy" Jesus:

Luke 19:27
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"

Jesus is our king, he rules over us, and he also loved us enough to die for us. Earlier chosenone demonstrated that she doesn't yet have her mind wrapped around that concept, but that's the way it is.

But as for "the oppression of women"? Again, it's not in Scripture. How on Earth anyone can claim to fear God's word above the teaching of man and believe such a thing is beyond me. You seriously want to claim that such a horrible bad thing occurred throughout the scope of human history and never ONCE did God address it? He had time to complain about tithing to Israel, but never "the oppression of women"?

What is more clear is that men sin against women. Of course they do. And women sin against men, though there's a deliberate intent to take attention away from the latter, even though Scripture (Proverbs for example) describes ways that women can and have victimized their husbands since time began (on an individual basis, mind you, not "all women"). Saying "women are oppressed" is a deliberate effort to minimize that. Today, men's rights are replying to that claim saying, hold the phone, to this DAY men make up over 90% of workplace deaths, and throughout all of history men have been working themselves as far as to death to provide for their wives--but "women were oppressed"? I have no doubt that various cultures throughout history are and always have been less than perfect, but post-feminist culture is a disaster of extraordinary proportions.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:53:13
"Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Gen 3:16

This is supposedly the dreaded bad thing that God supposedly prophesied but made no follow-up on whatsoever, right? Because someone who rules over someone else cannot POSSIBLY be loving them at the same time, right? If so, prepare to have your mind blown by the words if "Mr. Nice Guy" Jesus:

Luke 19:27
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"

the verse you use from Luke is WAY out of context...but you are trying to apply it to marriage...odd! To say the least.

My dh is the leader and as a good leader, he knows when to bow out and let someone who knows better about a subject take the lead.
Because he is a wise and patient leader, I also bow out when he feels strongly about something, or knows more about a subject than I do.  I know I can trust him, and he me. We are a team.  He leads, he goes first, the children and I follow. Even when I am asked to take the lead or he defers to me, I am still following his desire and doing it the way he wishes.
He doesn't feel the need nor the desire to "RULE" as you seem to be advocating for.  He has not agenda of "my way or the highway" "Im the boss, applesauce" "because I said so, Bledsoe!"  his father (who is an unsaved, unreasonable man) lead that way, and he wants NO part in looking like that at all. 

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:53:13Jesus is our king, he rules over us, and he also loved us enough to die for us. Earlier chosenone demonstrated that she doesn't yet have her mind wrapped around that concept, but that's the way it is.

I am not going to discuss with you your issues with Chosen.  That is gossip and unbecoming mature Christians.  Your problem with her opinions need to be addressed to her and NOT spoken around her as if she isn't here.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:53:13But as for "the oppression of women"? Again, it's not in Scripture. How on Earth anyone can claim to fear God's word above the teaching of man and believe such a thing is beyond me. You seriously want to claim that such a horrible bad thing occurred throughout the scope of human history and never ONCE did God address it? He had time to complain about tithing to Israel, but never "the oppression of women"?

Oh.my.gosh! Because the Word does not say "And hence, women were oppressed" means it is not truth?  What on earth???!!  Women and children were lesser beings! 
The Word also does not condemn slavery...does that mean it should be spoken of with " " around it to, making it seem like its something that is alleged, but not truth? How foolish, I am sorry, Cally, but that really really is!

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:53:13What is more clear is that men sin against women. Of course they do. And women sin against men, though there's a deliberate intent to take attention away from the latter, even though Scripture (Proverbs for example) describes ways that women can and have victimized their husbands since time began (on an individual basis, mind you, not "all women"). Saying "women are oppressed" is a deliberate effort to minimize that.

Of *course* they do! People are TERRIBLE to one another! That is why the Word is chock full of how we are to treat one another in ways that please and glorify the Lord God.  To say that women in other societies and in the past *were* treated poorly, thought of as lesser is NOT an effort to minimize anything. It is just truth.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:53:13Today, men's rights are replying to that claim saying, hold the phone, to this DAY men make up over 90% of workplace deaths, and throughout all of history men have been working themselves as far as to death to provide for their wives--but "women were oppressed"? I have no doubt that various cultures throughout history are and always have been less than perfect, but post-feminist culture is a disaster of extraordinary proportions.

I am not a feminist by any means.  I am a woman who thinks that men are amazing, wonderful, important, vital members of our society. I have raised TWO of them! They make me burst with pride, and humble me at the same time...their heart for God and others, their kindness to those invisible to others, their boldness to speak truth, and walk in their convictions not matter WHO or WHAT it costs them inspires me!  They will make amazing leaders of their families, in their communities and I can't *wait* to watch them be fathers. 
And I am a mother of daughters as well. I am GLAD they get to live today, where their voice is heard, their person-hood is valued, and they have the right to be and do whatever they want to be and do.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 14:43:25
This whole thread has become odd to me.  Not too long ago, I would have understood where both sides are coming from.

Interestingly, when I was in my mid-teens I would have self-righteously agreed with those who are arguing with me right now since I was saturated in feminist/egalitarian culture--though I'm unclear on how much common ground there is here.

But then I found my Bible and decided that my entire duty is to align my desires and attitudes with him (church culture I grew up in didn't gel with it quite so well), saw that the world today is a disaster, and awakened to the "equality" many women are seeking isn't very equal at all and there are plenty of people who can figure that out.

Modern culture, church, and the like, sorry, I have to be loyal to the God who saved me.

Otherwise, yeah it's agreement between two people kind of like a business, each having his/her interests and benefits and things to bring to the table.

Will the husband rule over the wife?  The same word in the Hebrew which is translated 'rule' means "to speak in proverbs, or to become like, or compare."

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 19:55:22

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 14:43:25
This whole thread has become odd to me.  Not too long ago, I would have understood where both sides are coming from.

Interestingly, when I was in my mid-teens I would have self-righteously agreed with those who are arguing with me right now since I was saturated in feminist/egalitarian culture--though I'm unclear on how much common ground there is here.

But then I found my Bible and decided that my entire duty is to align my desires and attitudes with him (church culture I grew up in didn't gel with it quite so well), saw that the world today is a disaster, and awakened to the "equality" many women are seeking isn't very equal at all and there are plenty of people who can figure that out.

Modern culture, church, and the like, sorry, I have to be loyal to the God who saved me.

Otherwise, yeah it's agreement between two people kind of like a business, each having his/her interests and benefits and things to bring to the table.

  God always treats women as equal, and joint heirs of the kingdom.

I would still like to know what your personal definition of a good husband is, because we have all given ours.

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 19:55:22
Interestingly, when I was in my mid-teens I would have self-righteously agreed with those who are arguing with me right now since I was saturated in feminist/egalitarian culture--though I'm unclear on how much common ground there is here.

But then I found my Bible and decided that my entire duty is to align my desires and attitudes with him (church culture I grew up in didn't gel with it quite so well), saw that the world today is a disaster, and awakened to the "equality" many women are seeking isn't very equal at all and there are plenty of people who can figure that out.

Modern culture, church, and the like, sorry, I have to be loyal to the God who saved me.

Otherwise, yeah it's agreement between two people kind of like a business, each having his/her interests and benefits and things to bring to the table.

Cally - if you wish to "rule over" a wife, and see that as the biblical norm/mandate; are you willing to be "ruled over" by an elder?  That is the  biblical norm/mandate as well.

Heb 13.17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Mar 04, 2014 - 05:48:17

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 19:55:22
Interestingly, when I was in my mid-teens I would have self-righteously agreed with those who are arguing with me right now since I was saturated in feminist/egalitarian culture--though I'm unclear on how much common ground there is here.

But then I found my Bible and decided that my entire duty is to align my desires and attitudes with him (church culture I grew up in didn't gel with it quite so well), saw that the world today is a disaster, and awakened to the "equality" many women are seeking isn't very equal at all and there are plenty of people who can figure that out.

Modern culture, church, and the like, sorry, I have to be loyal to the God who saved me.

Otherwise, yeah it's agreement between two people kind of like a business, each having his/her interests and benefits and things to bring to the table.

Cally - if you wish to "rule over" a wife, and see that as the biblical norm/mandate; are you willing to be "ruled over" by an elder?  That is the  biblical norm/mandate as well.

Heb 13.17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

The short answer is "yes," but . . .

The New Testament does indeed place elders in authority in many respects under which people should submit. The reality though is that today's so-called pastors are more comparable to Pharisees, and Jesus said to people "leave them, they are blind guides." I'd need to be real convinced that I'm seeing what the Bible taught and I have still not yet laid eyes on anything remotely like it.

I've addressed this before so please keep my answer in mind unless you have something to actually say about it. Every authority/submission interaction carries with it an "in this together" spirit, and when an authority issues an order, it comes with the understanding that the authority has provision assured for the subordinate. A few examples: parents and children, husbands and wives, bosses and employees, military officers, even masters and slaves. In all of these interactions the latter is commanded to be submissive to the former, but today's so-called church authorities have no business expecting submission from those they rule over until they facilitate a system of provision; let's face it, in the book of Acts, it was a church that ensured church members were never in need.

In other words, Dave, I will never--and nor should anyone else (see the others examples of authority/submission I listed)--think "I'll do what he says as an authority" if that authority figure is essentially telling me that I'm on my own to pick up the pieces if/when it results in disaster. NO ONE should fall for that. Can you imagine that nonsense happening in ANY other authority/submission interaction? Parents telling children to do something, and then "well that didn't work out . . . sorry kids you're on your own to deal with your circumstances now."

If you want to compare the Bible's description of an elder to those at the average church today, forget it. We're a LONG way from what the Bible taught in terms of church organization, but the first step to fixing it is not putting a blind trust in "leaders" who don't really share a risk with followers which is what we have today.

The answer is definitely "yes," but my diagnosis of the leaders I've known in practice can't remotely fit the bill.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Mar 04, 2014 - 02:46:49

Quote from: Cally on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 19:55:22

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 14:43:25
This whole thread has become odd to me.  Not too long ago, I would have understood where both sides are coming from.

Interestingly, when I was in my mid-teens I would have self-righteously agreed with those who are arguing with me right now since I was saturated in feminist/egalitarian culture--though I'm unclear on how much common ground there is here.

But then I found my Bible and decided that my entire duty is to align my desires and attitudes with him (church culture I grew up in didn't gel with it quite so well), saw that the world today is a disaster, and awakened to the "equality" many women are seeking isn't very equal at all and there are plenty of people who can figure that out.

Modern culture, church, and the like, sorry, I have to be loyal to the God who saved me.

Otherwise, yeah it's agreement between two people kind of like a business, each having his/her interests and benefits and things to bring to the table.

  God always treats women as equal, and joint heirs of the kingdom.

I would still like to know what your personal definition of a good husband is, because we have all given ours.

I already asked you to notice what I've already mentioned on the thread. Next I'd like hear your description of a good wife, just for fun.

I believe the most important thing a husband can impart to a wife is a sense of purpose. My outlook is this: Adam was made first, then Eve was given to be his "helper."

What's the best thing for a "helper"? To have a worthwhile cause with which to help the one she is helping. Basically, a man should have a goal, a passion, a destination, a task, a sense of duty beyond himself, and have these things firmly secure. He has a sense of purpose and mission and a determination to carry it out. A man finds fulfillment in that, and the "helper" is rewarded by the fact that she is part of an important, worthwhile cause to help. She enhances the purposes that Adam originally had, not to change the operation in any fundamental fashion, but enhance it, taking nothing away from what was already there--so Adam's gift to Eve is a good drive forward with which to help.

The man should love his wife as he loves himself, respond to her needs with sensitivity, respect her as a coworker and as someone with an equal value unto herself, basically having the same "price" as a person as he (something I seriously wonder if very many wives do for husbands, by the way, or see their husbands as pieces of meat with less value to their lives). He should impart himself fully to her  with a passion for seeing her happy and fulfilled.

And a big, big deal is, don't be an Ahab, a Sampson, or an Adam; maintain fortitude and stay on course, because as my first point, the "helper" has her purpose fulfilled when the cause which she is helping is a good and worthwhile one, so put the cause first, being willing to suffer disapproval (the man from the wife) in the short term or maybe even the long term for what is best.

A healthy man is dignified and maintains that drive and energy and sense of objectives.

MeMyself:

A few comments:

MM somehow I actually remembered you recounting your experience with your sons being treated as "lesser beings" during school, which is decent of you to recognize, so you have firsthand experience of men's needs being considered much less important today.

Yes, a lot of women assume that the grass is greener on men's side of the fence. And my contention (and those of many others today) is that in that case, an awful lot of perks that have been clearly taken for granted need to go. As it is what "independence" really amounts to is a gazillion tax-payer funded programs dedicated exclusively or primarily at the needs of women as more important--some consider themselves "oppressed" without taxpayer funded birth control--lowered standards for jobs on account of gender and basically a very old-school leniency; lower sentences for crimes (female pedophiles are a great example, victimizing boys taken nowhere near as seriously as the reverse). Fitness standards for marines, lowered for women--my argument is that fitness tests for various jobs lowered for women may be the most OVERT example of lower standards, but it indicates a willingness to lower standards in general by our society which should tell us that lowered standards almost certainly occur in less overt fashions in other respects.

Meanwhile men have almost no provisions for issues like domestic violence and many have suffered because of it. But nevermind that. The HUGE majority of homeless are men. But nevermind that. Men are having major, newfound problems in education. But nevermind that. Over 90% of workplace deaths are suffered by men. But nevermind that.

The full rundown of such things could go on for a long, long time.

Frankly MM, I don't see very many women valuing men's personhood today or their rights to justice, and that's especially offensive coming from a source that's so insistent on their own needs/wants/rights being taken so seriously. It's an attitude that is just impossible to respect. If a man's "privilege" is worth coveting, then where's the sense of honor, responsibility and sincere desire to contribute along with it?

In any case . . . things are going to get interesting in the coming years.

But with regards to "were women ever oppressed." Again, I think an awful lot that men have always done for women is being taken for granted in this case, and when those perks disappear (and some REAL equality is enforced) that's probably going to change minds. Beyond that, again, sorry, it's not a to-do in my Bible. I can see what's written and what God commands and that gets priority over modern notions of morality in an incredibly broken society we have today. Again, what credibility does today's culture have with regards to progress with rampant divorce and homosexual "marriage"? I'd think it quite stupid to listen to modern "sensibilities" with a forked tongue and demon tail coming out of this culture.

THIS is the "enlightened" culture that is going to educate me on something that's God's will (concerning men and women) that God Himself never got around to addressing in his Word? Not likely!! And has it occurred to you that you are essentially condemning countless men whom God approved called righteous, from Abraham to Moses to David and so on?

Quote from: Cally on Tue Mar 04, 2014 - 08:26:49
MeMyself:

A few comments:

MM somehow I actually remembered you recounting your experience with your sons being treated as "lesser beings" during school, which is decent of you to recognize, so you have firsthand experience of men's needs being considered much less important today.

Yes, a lot of women assume that the grass is greener on men's side of the fence. And my contention (and those of many others today) is that in that case, an awful lot of perks that have been clearly taken for granted need to go. As it is what "independence" really amounts to is a gazillion tax-payer funded programs dedicated exclusively or primarily at the needs of women as more important--some consider themselves "oppressed" without taxpayer funded birth control--lowered standards for jobs on account of gender and basically a very old-school leniency; lower sentences for crimes (female pedophiles are a great example, victimizing boys taken nowhere near as seriously as the reverse). Fitness standards for marines, lowered for women--my argument is that fitness tests for various jobs lowered for women may be the most OVERT example of lower standards, but it indicates a willingness to lower standards in general by our society which should tell us that lowered standards almost certainly occur in less overt fashions in other respects.

Meanwhile men have almost no provisions for issues like domestic violence and many have suffered because of it. But nevermind that. The HUGE majority of homeless are men. But nevermind that. Men are having major, newfound problems in education. But nevermind that. Over 90% of workplace deaths are suffered by men. But nevermind that.

The full rundown of such things could go on for a long, long time.

Frankly MM, I don't see very many women valuing men's personhood today or their rights to justice, and that's especially offensive coming from a source that's so insistent on their own needs/wants/rights being taken so seriously. It's an attitude that is just impossible to respect. If a man's "privilege" is worth coveting, then where's the sense of honor, responsibility and sincere desire to contribute along with it?

In any case . . . things are going to get interesting in the coming years.

But with regards to "were women ever oppressed." Again, I think an awful lot that men have always done for women is being taken for granted in this case, and when those perks disappear (and some REAL equality is enforced) that's probably going to change minds. Beyond that, again, sorry, it's not a to-do in my Bible. I can see what's written and what God commands and that gets priority over modern notions of morality in an incredibly broken society we have today. Again, what credibility does today's culture have with regards to progress with rampant divorce and homosexual "marriage"? I'd think it quite stupid to listen to modern "sensibilities" with a forked tongue and demon tail coming out of this culture.

THIS is the "enlightened" culture that is going to educate me on something that's God's will (concerning men and women) that God Himself never got around to addressing in his Word? Not likely!! And has it occurred to you that you are essentially condemning countless men whom God approved called righteous, from Abraham to Moses to David and so on?

what you bring up is modern day Western society men to women comparisons, which I already admitted to...women are not oppressed today in Western Society.  My boys have been overlooked in favor of girls within the school system at times, yes...

That does not change the fact that in the past, and in some other cultures today, women were treated poorly, told they weren't good enough to do (whatever), and had very little rights (oppressed).