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Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Jun 12, 2014 - 00:47:47

In fact nothing of what you arrogate is <in fact> true or just simply correct. You are the first person who should take heed that the WHOLE COUNSEL of God includes that the Sabbath has been a Covenantal sign between God and Christ in the first place and next between God and SPIRITUAL Israel - the Christians.

WRONG.  There is no such animal as a "spiritual Israel." That is a concept invented with replacement theology.

QuoteIn fact, the Sabbath whenever mentioned, is being mentioned as a sign and tool in the hand of God in his working out throughout the HISTORY OF SALVATION of the <<WHOLE COUNSEL of God>> which CULMINATED IN CHRIST JESUS.

The Sabbath is never mentioned as applicable to gentiles with the exception of those who live in the Jewish community - "the stranger [Heb = ger] who dwells AMONG you."

By buying into that "spiritual Israel" lie, your entire understanding of the covenantal sign of the Sabbath is seriously distorted.

<<WRONG.  There is no such animal as a "spiritual Israel." That is a concept invented with replacement theology.>>

Dave you are confusing me; we are not talking about animals, "spiritual Israel" is an appropriate name for the Children of God, those who are in a living relationship with Him and this is the opposite of Israel in the flesh: those who have not entered into the covenant even though they may keep some form of commandments.  You may know something I don't; I do not use jargon or keywords which are a form of mind control, but I can imagine that some have taken these words and built a doctrine of men around them.
Replacement Theology is a name one calls someone one does not like; like homo or homophobic.

<<The Sabbath is never mentioned as applicable to gentiles with the exception of those who live in the Jewish community - "the stranger [Heb = ger] who dwells AMONG you."
By buying into that "spiritual Israel" lie, your entire understanding of the covenantal sign of the Sabbath is seriously distorted.>>

If one was a literalist or a legalist one could say the Sabbath has not been specifically directed at Pagans/Gentiles and rightly so; among other things the Sabbath is a sign of entering into the covenant/Law; gentiles cannot do this; what I mean is when a gentile/ Pagan enters into the covenant/Law he has to pass through a conversion after which he is no longer a gentile/Pagan. I am able to call such a person spiritual Israel, you cannot because of some concocted theological jargon that you subscribe to or subscribe against.   

<<<The whole issue of the Sabbath verses Sunday is: does one reject the whole counsel of God and accept an alternative authority.>>>

{{{Exactly TRUE! Here you are giving the very 'TEST' you should --- yourself --- apply to your own predisposition, namely,
<<<The whole issue of the Sabbath verses Sunday is: does one reject the whole counsel of God and accept an alternative authority>>> WHICH IS WHOLLY CONTRADICTORY with what you claim, namely, that
<<<that WHOLE COUNSEL includes the fact that the Sabbath is a covenantal sign between God and natural Israel - the Jews. It is NEVER mentioned as a sign between God and any gentiles.>>>

You falsely inserts <<natural>>, and <<the Jews>> and false ly asserts << the Sabbath is NEVER mentioned as a sign between God and any gentiles.>>>

In fact nothing of what you arrogate is <in fact> true or just simply correct. You are the first person who should take heed that the WHOLE COUNSEL of God includes that the Sabbath has been a Covenantal sign between God and Christ in the first place and next between God and SPIRITUAL Israel - the Christians. In fact, the Sabbath whenever mentioned, is being mentioned as a sign and tool in the hand of God in his working out throughout the HISTORY OF SALVATION of the <<WHOLE COUNSEL of God>> which CULMINATED IN CHRIST JESUS.

It is so easy to make authoritative statements with great bravado but meantime everything about it is a farce.{{{

As I sit here stunned trying to work out who I am disagreeing with and am I really disagreeing or misunderstanding, I pray; God help Dave and Gerhard Ebersöhn to understand nothing is culminated, the counsel of God and the covenant is still active and will never end.

Why do most subscribe to the non-Biblical notion that the Law/covenant was abrogated at or nailed to the cross? The prophesies of old told of the Law/covenant going to the Gentiles; did prophesy fail, if the Law/covenant was abrogated, what went to the gentiles three and a half years later? From the Bible please not concocted nonsense. Regardless of what men say the covenant is still available for anyone to enter into but it is not easy; it requires that the person sees the need to do so and it requires God's approval and participation; it is easy so a little old lady can do it and hard such that an Olympic athlete would fail. It is also possible that many have entered into the covenant yet deny it because they have themselves so tricked up with words and concepts.

Quote...Pagans/Gentiles...

Those are NOT the same thing. Yet you seem to be using them interchangeably.

Cornelius was certainly a gentile but as a God-fearer he was certainly NOT a pagan.  Christians who do not come from a Jewish/Israelite family (either naturally or by conversion) are STILL gentiles but are NOT pagans.

If you want a name to call them/us I would suggest "Commonwealth of Israel." That at least has some scriptural basis.  Ephesians 2:12

QuoteYou falsely inserts <<natural>>, and <<the Jews>> and falsely asserts << the Sabbath is NEVER mentioned as a sign between God and any gentiles.>>>

If you can find me a verse that says it is a sign between God and gentiles, please post it here.  I want to see it.

...Pagans/Gentiles...

<<Those are NOT the same thing. Yet you seem to be using them interchangeably.

We have had this discussion before; let me reiterate. A dictionary gives the most common usage of words and by definition the least common usages are omitted but are still valid if they achieve their purpose. Beyond this the dictionary is not an authority. If one allows a dictionary to be an authority it will control one's mind; it will control what one thinks and can say; when such a one reads the Bible it will be a dictionary speaking not God and the Holy Spirit will be on the dole.
   Yes, I used Pagan/gentile as an indivisible aggregation; I cannot imagine a gentile not being a Pagan. How I see the difference between Pagan and Gentile is: anyone (person) not of the Jewish faith is a Pagan, anyone not of the Jewish race is a gentile. So anyone not of the Jewish race will be pagan and anyone not of the Jewish faith will be gentile. Even before Christ any Pagan/gentile who converted to the Jewish faith became a Jew, no longer gentile.  You may think God is a racist; If God is not a racist today then He never was, God does not change.

<< Cornelius was certainly a gentile but as a God-fearer he was certainly NOT a pagan.  Christians who do not come from a Jewish/Israelite family (either naturally or by conversion) are STILL gentiles but are NOT pagans.  >>

This is not the Bible talking, it is your statement and it is an oxymoron. The kingdom of God is a single family it is not many families; it is the house of Israel, not by race but by overcoming; I don't expect any flesh to be there.

<< If you want a name to call them/us I would suggest "Commonwealth of Israel." That at least has some scriptural basis.  Ephesians 2:12>>

Spiritual Israel doesn't bother me; the difference between spiritual Israel and Commonwealth of Israel is the same difference as Jews in the spirit and Jews in the flesh. Paul spoke a lot about spiritual; your brand of literalism/legalism cannot handle the fact that Paul didn't place the words "spiritual" and "Israel" side by side in the same sentence. Commonwealth appears once in the KJV and the word Paul used on one occasion could mean citizenship or community.
   The word "spiritual" demonstrates the danger of depending to strongly on dictionary meanings; Hos 9:7 "The spiritual man is mad". There is a big difference between spiritualism and the spiritual nature of the God of Israel and His kingdom.

Quote
You falsely inserts <<natural>>, and <<the Jews>> and falsely asserts << the Sabbath is NEVER mentioned as a sign between God and any gentiles.>>>

{{{If you can find me a verse that says it is a sign between God and gentiles, please post it here.  I want to see it. }}}

One needs to understand the significance of there not being a sign between God and gentiles, there is a communication with them through NT Israel and any sign are contingent on conversion and entering into the covenant.

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jun 12, 2014 - 05:57:39

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Jun 12, 2014 - 00:47:47

In fact nothing of what you arrogate is <in fact> true or just simply correct. You are the first person who should take heed that the WHOLE COUNSEL of God includes that the Sabbath has been a Covenantal sign between God and Christ in the first place and next between God and SPIRITUAL Israel - the Christians.

WRONG.  There is no such animal as a "spiritual Israel." That is a concept invented with replacement theology.

QuoteIn fact, the Sabbath whenever mentioned, is being mentioned as a sign and tool in the hand of God in his working out throughout the HISTORY OF SALVATION of the <<WHOLE COUNSEL of God>> which CULMINATED IN CHRIST JESUS.

The Sabbath is never mentioned as applicable to gentiles with the exception of those who live in the Jewish community - "the stranger [Heb = ger] who dwells AMONG you."

By buying into that "spiritual Israel" lie, your entire understanding of the covenantal sign of the Sabbath is seriously distorted.

Your right, the Sabbath is and never was for Gentiles. It is for those only who accept the authority of the God of the Jews and are of Israel by choice, not by birth. There most certainly is a spiritual Israel and always has been, or are you of the understanding that anyone has ever been saved of their flesh? Is or was there ever a people of God according to the flesh? No, even Israel was built and established according to the promises of God, and they only who had faith in those promises and acted accordingly were of the true Israel of God.

Ac 9:11  And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12  And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13  Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14  And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me,to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

The Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel of God, to bear His name before the Gentiles, Kings, and the children of Israel. The authority of his teachings was from God to all of the above. So what did he teach concerning the Gentiles and Israel? What did the Apostles establish concerning the same?

Ac 15:3  And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 ¶  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

When the message went out to the Gentiles, God put no difference between them and the believing Jews. Peter summed it up in verse eleven above by stating that both Jew and Gentile were saved by grace in Jesus Christ. Certain of the Pharisees demanded that the new converts must keep the law of Moses, but the Apostles decided against this, since God made no difference between Jew or Gentile regarding the same concerning salvation and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Thus the new covenant church was to be composed of Jews and converted Gentiles between whom, God made no difference. Though men themselves still did.

Ro 3:19 ¶  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:[ that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

In the above we have the statement of no difference between Jew and Gentile again. Both and all are guilty before the law, and are saved by faith in Christ alone. Of course the law spoken of above cannot be the civil, ceremonial, or dietary laws written by the hand of Moses, for we already know the church determined that converted Gentiles need not keep the same. This they professed while admitting that neither their fathers nor they were ever able to do so either. Thus it is obvious that it is the moral laws of the ten commandments of God written with His own finger, that makes all the world guilty and in need of salvation through Christ. Nor does this make the law of God void, but rather establishes it.

The fact that all the world is guilty before God for breaking it, and needs salvation in Christ to get out from under the condemnation of the law, proves the extent of its authority and power. All need salvation from its condemnation for there is no difference in relation to all concerning its authority. Thus is there no difference between Jew and Gentile who are all one in Christ, acknowledging the authority of God's law by their confession of faith in Christ to save them from its condemnation.

Ro 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

There is no difference, no difference, no difference. Here we have it the third times now, those in Christ are made one, not two. The only Jews who remain separate from the converted Gentiles, are those who rejected and reject Christ. Those who are in Christ have become one with those of all other nations and peoples who are also. Jews or anyone else that wants to continue to keep the laws of Moses may do so, but they cannot demand that any other must in order to be saved. All however must confess their faith in Christ to save them from the condemnation of the law of God, which faith does not make the law of God void, but rather establishes the same.

So who is it that maintains the difference between Jew and Gentile? It is either the Jews who rejected Christ, or those who consider themselves "Gentile Christians" who reject the teaching of the Apostles and scriptures we have examined thus far. This begs the question of who the real Israel is now. Is it the Jews who rejected and still reject Christ, or is it the Jews and converted Gentiles that accept Christ as the promised Messiah. What do the scriptures say, and what did Paul teach?

Ac 13:44  And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45  But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46  Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47  For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49  And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. 50  But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51  But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

The above is just one example of the division of the Jewish nation between those who accepted their Messiah, and those who did not. So who is and was the true Israel of God during this division and today as it continues? Was it the Apostles who were all Jews themselves, and those who accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ whether Jew or Gentile, or was it the Jews who rejected the same? Or are there now two separate peoples of God on earth as many suggest? What do the scriptures say, what did Paul teach?

Ro 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

According to Paul, God is no respecter of persons. Those who show respect to the law of God show the work of the law written upon their hearts, whether Jew or Gentile, whether they have knowledge of the same or not. This is because it is the work of the Holy Spirit of God to convict and convert in relation to the law of God. This again has to be referring to the ten commandments of God, for we already know from scripture that converted Gentiles are not required to keep the law of Moses, save those practices to confounded with the worship of false god's in violation of the first two commandments. This is all according to Paul's gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no difference. It is the same, to the Jew first, and then the Gentile.

Ro 9:1 ¶  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2  That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 ¶  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

We see from Paul's above words that not all who are from Israel, are Israel. It is not because one is of the literal seed of Abraham that makes them a true Israelite, but rather the one who accepts the promise of Christ who are counted for the seed. Those Jews who are the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, but do not accept the promise of Christ, are not of Israel. It is those who have accepted the promise of Christ that are the real Israel of God, the Jew first, and also the Gentile. The Gentile who accepts the promise is no longer a Gentile but of the family of Abraham by faith and of the true Israel of God. Israel existed for the purpose of bringing forth Christ through the lineage chosen by God Himself. Those of Israel according to the flesh only now, are no longer the Israel of God, and quite frankly none ever were. What more does Paul have to say about the matter?

Ga 6:11 ¶  Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand. 12  As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13  For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14  But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Who are the Israel of God but those who understand that being circumcised or not according to the law of Moses, means nothing apart from becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus. Those who understand this whether Jew or Gentile receive commendation from Paul as the Israel of God. How say some that there is no spiritual Israel of God composed of all believers of the same? Does Paul have anything else to say about the matter?

Eph 3:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9  Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 ¶  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 ¶  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

It doesn't get any clearer than the above. Gentiles in Christ are no longer Gentiles but of the very household of God, fellow citizens with the saints, of the commonwealth of Israel. They themselves being built upon the teachings of the apostles, prophets, and Jesus Christ himself.  Because of this they are citizens of the Israel of God. All those who reject the teachings of the apostles, prophets, or Jesus Christ are no longer of the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile. This is Paul's teaching. Is this all he has to say?

Ga 3:6 ¶  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham......................................................................................

Who are the seed of Abraham, but the nation of Israel?

13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..................................

The promise was made to Abraham and his seed. All are his seed who accept the promise of Christ through His gospel.

26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How could it be made any clearer by the Apostle Paul? Converted Gentiles are no longer Gentiles but the seed of Abraham, the Israel of God, of the commonwealth of Israel, fellow citizens with the same, and children of Abraham, of the household of God, who have been made one with Israel. What more could Paul say to convince us that those in Christ, the church, are the Israel of God?

Depending on what we mean by "spiritual Israel," maybe there is, and maybe there isn't.


The phrase need not be understood as a Replacement Theology rubric, but based on Paul's discussion in the first few chapters of Romans where he clearly says that neither the Law nor circumcision amount to much without trusting YHWH. He will clearly assert that not all those of Israel are Israel, but that the Gentiles who kept the principles of the Law actually kept it even though they had not received it.


Paul says this in his rhetorical attempt to first, bring all peoples together as having sinned, but also then to allow all peoples to come to God through trusting Him (in the person of Jesus for Paul's immediate point). Those who have had their hearts, not primarily their flesh circumcised are Israel whether they are Jewish or Gentile.


It is in this sense, this very clear Pauline sense, that the phrase "spiritual Israel" can be appropriately used. It is based on trust in YHWH (before the Law, before circumcision), and keeping the principles of the Law even if you didn't have the Law (Gentiles). "Spiritual Israel" is opposed to fleshly Israel and is the whole people of God together. There no longer remains Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female when it comes to being accepted by God through trust.


And, as Paul makes abundantly clear, it has never been any other way.

Quote from: HRoberson on Sun Jun 15, 2014 - 18:15:18
Depending on what we mean by "spiritual Israel," maybe there is, and maybe there isn't.


The phrase need not be understood as a Replacement Theology rubric, but based on Paul's discussion in the first few chapters of Romans where he clearly says that neither the Law nor circumcision amount to much without trusting YHWH. He will clearly assert that not all those of Israel are Israel, but that the Gentiles who kept the principles of the Law actually kept it even though they had not received it.


Paul says this in his rhetorical attempt to first, bring all peoples together as having sinned, but also then to allow all peoples to come to God through trusting Him (in the person of Jesus for Paul's immediate point). Those who have had their hearts, not primarily their flesh circumcised are Israel whether they are Jewish or Gentile.


It is in this sense, this very clear Pauline sense, that the phrase "spiritual Israel" can be appropriately used. It is based on trust in YHWH (before the Law, before circumcision), and keeping the principles of the Law even if you didn't have the Law (Gentiles). "Spiritual Israel" is opposed to fleshly Israel and is the whole people of God together. There no longer remains Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female when it comes to being accepted by God through trust.


And, as Paul makes abundantly clear, it has never been any other way.

Who would have thought it, we agree. Its what keeps things interesting around here.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 14, 2014 - 11:24:32

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jun 12, 2014 - 05:57:39
The Sabbath is never mentioned as applicable to gentiles with the exception of those who live in the Jewish community - "the stranger [Heb = ger] who dwells AMONG you."

By buying into that "spiritual Israel" lie, your entire understanding of the covenantal sign of the Sabbath is seriously distorted.

Your right, the Sabbath is and never was for Gentiles.

How do you define "Gentile?"  The Hebrew word "goy" means Nation. Our word gentile comes from the Latin word for nation: gens, gentis F. 

QuoteIt is for those only who accept the authority of the God of the Jews and are of Israel by choice, not by birth.

You cannot be "Israel by choice" unless you formally convert to Judaism.

QuoteThere most certainly is a spiritual Israel and always has been, or are you of the understanding that anyone has ever been saved of their flesh? Is or was there ever a people of God according to the flesh?

Yes, there has been a people of God in the flesh.  That was how both the Abrahamic covenant and Mosaic covenant worked.  Salvation is by covenant and you were physically born into those covenants by lineage. Of course if you went off and did not follow the covenant you ended up cutting yourself off from it.

QuoteNo, even Israel was built and established according to the promises of God, and they only who had faith in those promises and acted accordingly were of the true Israel of God.

As I said, you can cut your self off of the covenant (no longer Israel) and Paul says that can happen even in the New Covenant:

Rom 11.19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Paul says the gentiles who come to faith are grafted into Israel (Rom 11.17) and become part of the "Commonwealth of Israel" or the "Israel of God." But that is not to be confused with Israel proper. Do not confuse the grafted in branches with the natural branches.  Their fruit is different.

Why?  Because "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. " Rom 11.29.   That means the ancient callings and responsibilities given to the physical descendants (and their proselytes) of Jacob are still in effect.  They are NOT in effect for gentile believers in the Lord.  However, they have their own unique callings and ministries - primary of which is to make traditional (non messianic) Jews jealous of their relationship with the God of Abraham. Romans 11.11

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Jun 20, 2014 - 09:00:54

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 14, 2014 - 11:24:32

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jun 12, 2014 - 05:57:39
The Sabbath is never mentioned as applicable to gentiles with the exception of those who live in the Jewish community - "the stranger [Heb = ger] who dwells AMONG you."

By buying into that "spiritual Israel" lie, your entire understanding of the covenantal sign of the Sabbath is seriously distorted.

Your right, the Sabbath is and never was for Gentiles.

How do you define "Gentile?"  The Hebrew word "goy" means Nation. Our word gentile comes from the Latin word for nation: gens, gentis F. 

QuoteIt is for those only who accept the authority of the God of the Jews and are of Israel by choice, not by birth.

You cannot be "Israel by choice" unless you formally convert to Judaism.

QuoteThere most certainly is a spiritual Israel and always has been, or are you of the understanding that anyone has ever been saved of their flesh? Is or was there ever a people of God according to the flesh?

Yes, there has been a people of God in the flesh.  That was how both the Abrahamic covenant and Mosaic covenant worked.  Salvation is by covenant and you were physically born into those covenants by lineage. Of course if you went off and did not follow the covenant you ended up cutting yourself off from it.

QuoteNo, even Israel was built and established according to the promises of God, and they only who had faith in those promises and acted accordingly were of the true Israel of God.

As I said, you can cut your self off of the covenant (no longer Israel) and Paul says that can happen even in the New Covenant:

Rom 11.19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Paul says the gentiles who come to faith are grafted into Israel (Rom 11.17) and become part of the "Commonwealth of Israel" or the "Israel of God." But that is not to be confused with Israel proper. Do not confuse the grafted in branches with the natural branches.  Their fruit is different.

Why?  Because "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. " Rom 11.29.   That means the ancient callings and responsibilities given to the physical descendants (and their proselytes) of Jacob are still in effect.  They are NOT in effect for gentile believers in the Lord.  However, they have their own unique callings and ministries - primary of which is to make traditional (non messianic) Jews jealous of their relationship with the God of Abraham. Romans 11.11

Since we seem to be getting side tracked from the issues on this thread, lets direct our traffic concerning Israel to the following thread, created for the same.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-%28sda%29/god%27s-nation-on-earth/

A few more articles of interest, or not, concerning Sunday rest.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel-adopts-sundays-off/2013/02/23/

http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/departments/elg/local_government/content/governance/content/days_of_rest_act.html

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=74097

http://www.cantondailyledger.com/article/20140420/NEWS/304209995/10113/LIFESTYLE

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/27/us/pope-francis-has-a-few-words-in-support-of-leisure.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/Opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=7488#.U680n7Efyb4

http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=187530.0

http://intunemusiconline.com/2006/08/02/taking-back-sunday-whats-in-a-name/

What is <<<... Sunday rest.>>?


Never read a word <<<... concerning Sunday rest>>> to be honest.

Have read a LOT OT and NT ... concerning SABBATH rest, yea!

God bless his Holy Day

What is <<<... Sunday rest.>>>

If you do an internet search you will find the term common.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-unity_Sunday_legislation_global_law

Here are a couple of interesting and informational sites regarding the issue of this thread -

http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Sabbath-Sunday/NationalSundayLaw-Jones.pdf

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/lords_day_history.html#tfsl

Here is a real whopper, concerning the subject at hand -

http://www.trueletterofoursavior.com/

Here are several other sites regarding the supposed Letter of Jesus Christ concerning Sunday sacredness. I had no idea it was so popular and believed by so many to this day.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Christ/true-letter.htm

http://catholicdevotionsapostolate.blogspot.com/2010/07/true-letter-of-our-savior-jesus-christ.html

http://www.fatima.org/crusader/cr48/cr48pg31.asp

http://www.ignitumtoday.com/2012/12/01/the-true-letter-of-our-lord-jesus-christ-2/

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=401653

http://healwithgrace.blogspot.com/2010/03/true-letter-of-our-savior-jesus-christ.html

http://internationaltridentinemass.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-true-letter-of-our-savior-jesus-christ.html

Another article of interest concerning Pope Francis and Sunday rest -

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2014/07/pope-asks-is-working-on-sunday-true-freedom/

Here it goes, socialist labor union takes company to court and wins.

http://www.retaildetail.eu/en/eur-europe/eur-furniture/item/16471-ikea-france-convicted-for-illegal-sunday-opening

More of interest.

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/emire/FRANCE/WEEKLYRESTDAY-FR.htm

https://www.gov.uk/trading-hours-for-retailers-the-law

http://www.nwitimes.com/business/local/magnetics-to-pay-to-settle-religious-discrimination-suit/article_f9e437bb-9396-5d50-94b1-fd1e1199c42f.html

http://utopiathecollapse.com/2014/07/11/pope-francis-initiates-vatican-push-for-global-work-free-sunday/

http://national.deseretnews.com/article/1862/working-this-sunday-heres-your-newest-reason-to-take-the-day-off.html

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/euelections2014thepledge

http://www.free-sunday.eu/en

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2597931/Let-stay-open-longer-Sunday-Big-stores-plea-scrap-ridiculous-rules.html

https://www.gov.uk/trading-hours-for-retailers-the-law

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28111501

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28237440

http://www.cityam.com/article/1395633782/sunday-trading-laws-are-outdated-we-must-extend-opening-hours

http://europeanlawblog.eu/?p=2372

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/formsdocs/wp/LS611.pdf

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter136/Section5

http://webserver.rilin.state.ri.us/Statutes/TITLE25/25-3/25-3-3.HTM

http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=9057

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=18985

http://ecode360.com/8544550

http://wn.com/sunday,_law

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/whoweare/article/75.html

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/whoweare/article/63.html

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/whoweare/article/64.html

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/whoweare/article/65.html

Start Quote
Re: Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism
<<WRONG.  There is no such animal as a "spiritual Israel." That is a concept invented with replacement theology.>>

Dave you are confusing me; we are not talking about animals, "spiritual Israel" is an appropriate name for the Children of God, those who are in a living relationship with Him and this is the opposite of Israel in the flesh: those who have not entered into the covenant even though they may keep some form of commandments.  You may know something I don't; I do not use jargon or keywords which are a form of mind control, but I can imagine that some have taken these words and built a doctrine of men around them.
Replacement Theology is a name one calls someone one does not like; like homo or homophobic.

<<The Sabbath is never mentioned as applicable to gentiles with the exception of those who live in the Jewish community - "the stranger [Heb = ger] who dwells AMONG you."
By buying into that "spiritual Israel" lie, your entire understanding of the covenantal sign of the Sabbath is seriously distorted.>>

If one was a literalist or a legalist one could say the Sabbath has not been specifically directed at Pagans/Gentiles and rightly so; among other things the Sabbath is a sign of entering into the covenant/Law; gentiles cannot do this; what I mean is when a gentile/ Pagan enters into the covenant/Law he has to pass through a conversion after which he is no longer a gentile/Pagan. I am able to call such a person spiritual Israel, you cannot because of some concocted theological jargon that you subscribe to or subscribe against.   

<<<The whole issue of the Sabbath verses Sunday is: does one reject the whole counsel of God and accept an alternative authority.>>>

{{{Exactly TRUE! Here you are giving the very 'TEST' you should --- yourself --- apply to your own predisposition, namely,
<<<The whole issue of the Sabbath verses Sunday is: does one reject the whole counsel of God and accept an alternative authority>>> WHICH IS WHOLLY CONTRADICTORY with what you claim, namely, that
<<<that WHOLE COUNSEL includes the fact that the Sabbath is a covenantal sign between God and natural Israel - the Jews. It is NEVER mentioned as a sign between God and any gentiles.>>>

You falsely inserts <<natural>>, and <<the Jews>> and false ly asserts << the Sabbath is NEVER mentioned as a sign between God and any gentiles.>>>

In fact nothing of what you arrogate is <in fact> true or just simply correct. You are the first person who should take heed that the WHOLE COUNSEL of God includes that the Sabbath has been a Covenantal sign between God and Christ in the first place and next between God and SPIRITUAL Israel - the Christians. In fact, the Sabbath whenever mentioned, is being mentioned as a sign and tool in the hand of God in his working out throughout the HISTORY OF SALVATION of the <<WHOLE COUNSEL of God>> which CULMINATED IN CHRIST JESUS.

It is so easy to make authoritative statements with great bravado but meantime everything about it is a farce.{{{

As I sit here stunned trying to work out who I am disagreeing with and am I really disagreeing or misunderstanding, I pray; God help Dave and Gerhard Ebersöhn to understand nothing is culminated, the counsel of God and the covenant is still active and will never end.

Why do most subscribe to the non-Biblical notion that the Law/covenant was abrogated at or nailed to the cross? The prophesies of old told of the Law/covenant going to the Gentiles; did prophesy fail, if the Law/covenant was abrogated, what went to the gentiles three and a half years later? From the Bible please not concocted nonsense. Regardless of what men say the covenant is still available for anyone to enter into but it is not easy; it requires that the person sees the need to do so and it requires God's approval and participation; it is easy so a little old lady can do it and hard such that an Olympic athlete would fail. It is also possible that many have entered into the covenant yet deny it because they have themselves so tricked up with words and concepts.
End quote

A very good post.
But you don't need worry about me, Gerhard Ebersöhn, because I have done with the Law and contentions about the Law. Christ abolished the Law in his flesh.
Christ in his flesh rose from the dead the Law on the Sabbath.
The 'Sabbath / Sunday issue' is no issue none whatsoever; IT IS ALL ABOUT THE DAY JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD ON.

It is an issue the legalist-Sundayists have won with flying colours but the poor Sabbatharians have always thought they had won. The latter having handed over to the real legalists the only valid reason for being of the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD.

Christ abolished the Law in his flesh. In Himself nailed to the cross, He took it out of the way and triumphed in it.

Christ The Word of God came from the dead God's Law in his flesh, and made the Sabbath, the Lord's Day of Sabbaths' Feast of Christ its Substance.

QuoteBut you don't need worry about me, Gerhard Ebersöhn, because I have done with the Law and contentions about the Law. Christ abolished the Law in his flesh.
Christ in his flesh rose from the dead the Law on the Sabbath.
The 'Sabbath / Sunday issue' is no issue none whatsoever; IT IS ALL ABOUT THE DAY JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD ON.

The bible says nowhere that Christ abolished the law in His flesh. This is a fairy tale for the deceived. He did not come to abolish the law at all, but to the contrary to establish it, just as the scriptures testify. He came to condemn sin in the flesh, not the law of God.

Mt 5:17 ¶  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 8:1 ¶  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You cannot abolish and establish something at the same time.

Eph 2:14 ¶  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Christ abolished the enmity between the law of God and sinners, not the law of God. He did this in His flesh, which was our flesh. He did this by keeping the law of God perfectly in our flesh, thus condemning sin in the flesh. After which or more accurately the final action of which led Him to the cross where all sinners who will be saved were crucified with and in Him. Thus He has abolished the condemnation of the law over the sinner who accepts salvation in Christ. Abolishing the enmity between the saved and the law, not the law. We are the ones who change, not God's law. If it could have been changed, our salvation would not have been necessary.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7  For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

He who is dead is freed from sin, and thus the penalty of the law also, which is death. The enmity is gone.

Mt 10:38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39  He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mt 16:24 ¶  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Rom 12:1 ¶  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/sunday_mass.htm

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140928/letters/Keep-Sunday-as-a-day-of-rest-for-society.537515

http://www.timesofisrael.com/sunday-a-day-off-in-israel-tel-aviv-brokers-hope-so/

http://www.ldausa.org/lda/reflections/

Amo:

Q~The bible says nowhere that Christ abolished the law in His flesh. This is a fairy tale for the deceived. He did not come to abolish the law at all, but to the contrary to establish it, just as the scriptures testify. He came to condemn sin in the flesh, not the law of God. ~Q

GE:

Well, I never.

Now what did Jesus actually avail?

This is the GOSPEL Amo, which you are here denying.

This is the Law of God: Jesus Christ crucified and nailed to the cross; Jesus Christ the Word of God taken "out of the way" and "abolished"

SO THAT HE COULD "MAGNIFY THY LAW O GOD" when "LIFTED HIGH from the earth", "upon the mount a LAMB as SLAIN" -- indeed as "SLAIN from before the foundation of the world". 

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Sun Oct 26, 2014 - 02:45:52
Amo:

Q~The bible says nowhere that Christ abolished the law in His flesh. This is a fairy tale for the deceived. He did not come to abolish the law at all, but to the contrary to establish it, just as the scriptures testify. He came to condemn sin in the flesh, not the law of God. ~Q

GE:

Well, I never.

Now what did Jesus actually avail?

This is the GOSPEL Amo, which you are here denying.

This is the Law of God: Jesus Christ crucified and nailed to the cross; Jesus Christ the Word of God taken "out of the way" and "abolished"

SO THAT HE COULD "MAGNIFY THY LAW O GOD" when "LIFTED HIGH from the earth", "upon the mount a LAMB as SLAIN" -- indeed as "SLAIN from before the foundation of the world". 

Perhaps a little context would help.

Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 ¶  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 ¶  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19  And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Since when is the law of God considered commandments and doctrines of men? When was it ever referred to as rudiments of this world? Nevertheless, even if the above were referring to God's law, the obvious meaning is as always concerning the removal of the condemnation of the law, not the law itself. This is what the forgiveness above is about. The removal of the condemnation of the law by way of forgiveness, not the law itself. If the law of God itself has been removed, then there is no condemnation which would require forgiveness. No law, no transgression, no need for forgiveness or atonement, no need for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Exactly --- ~since when is the Law of God considered commandments and doctrines of men?~!

The WHOLE context would certainly help!

But since you "JUDGE" <The Law of GOD> in verses 12-19 as <the commandments and doctrines of men> in verses 20-23, you beguile the Body of Christ's Own of their Reward, and judge and condemn them for holding to  <the commandments and doctrines of men> instead of to their Head which is Christ the Substance of their Sabbaths' Feast Assemblies—   beguiling them of and denying them their Nourishment being ministered by joints and bands [of faith 2:12 Hosea 11:4; peace Ephesians 4:3; and charity Colossians 3:14], by which they— knit together (in love 2:2), as the Body of Christ's Own grow with the growth of God."

http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2014/05/12/no-work-on-sunday-the-warning-of-the-virgin-mary-at-la-salette/

Mary, who is dead, has warned people that God is offended by those who don't keep Sunday holy. Never mind that God forbade and forbids communication with the dead.

http://www.free-sunday.eu/en/content/objective

http://www.comece.org/site/en/activities/europeansundayalliance

MEPS talk about EU, A work free Sunday

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=24011

http://www.allianz-fuer-den-freien-sonntag.de/131129_programme

QuoteNever mind that God forbade and forbids communication with the dead.

Indeed.  That has always bothered me.

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Nov 07, 2014 - 13:48:27

QuoteNever mind that God forbade and forbids communication with the dead.

Indeed.  That has always bothered me.

I don't understand how some trust communications from the dead, when God has forbidden the same.

QuoteI don't understand how some trust communications from the dead, when God has forbidden the same.

Well, if you throw out the Torah and its commands, there is no command to not listen to the dead. So one does not see God as having forbidden it.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Nov 10, 2014 - 07:55:57

QuoteI don't understand how some trust communications from the dead, when God has forbidden the same.

Well, if you throw out the Torah and its commands, there is no command to not listen to the dead. So one does not see God as having forbidden it.

Good point. Add to this the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, and you have the potential for major deception from the one who first promoted this lie.

Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

CONFERENCE on Work free Sundays and Decent Work 21/ 1/ 14

http://ndcatholic.org/editorials/column0711/

https://catholicsensibility.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/dies-domini-64-the-day-of-rest/

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm

http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/3545/Secular-Day-Rest-Law.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/greek-shopkeepers-strike-sunday-trading

http://www.euronews.com/2013/11/03/greece-small-businesses-protest-against-new-laws-allowing-sunday-trading/

http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/9828.20701.0.0/religion/roman-catholicism/is-the-eu-about-to-enforce-sunday-worship-in-greece?preview

http://rt.com/news/greece-protests-streets-riots-260/

http://www.grreporter.info/en/terrorists_blew_newspaper_office/11929

Ah yes, good "Christian" protests, riots, and bombings to protect or establish their Sunday rest.

http://godourlight.info/?p=747