Christian Forums

1- you have came to realize bible alone in unbiblical (1 Tim 3:15)

2- you have started to take John 6:53 literally and believe in the Eucharist


If you have these two things down everything else will work it self out


God bless

Billions of believers of course disagree with you, and the Bible of course has all we need in it. Adding things to the Bible is dangerous and forbidden and heretical.   

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 02:50:59
Billions of believers of course disagree with you, and the Bible of course has all we need in it. Adding things to the Bible is dangerous and forbidden and heretical.

All said without any evidence whatsoever. But then that's Protestantism. Only Catholics have to provide evidence!

Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 01:33:241- you have came to realize bible alone in unbiblical (1 Tim 3:15) 2- you have started to take John 6:53 literally and believe in the Eucharist If you have these two things down everything else will work it self out

You do not even have the first two down correctly, and besides you contradict 1 and 2.  "IF" you believe the bible alone is unbiblical then WHY are you trying to convince others that they should take John 6:53 literal?  It makes no sense for you to make the two statements.  This leads me to believe that you do not believe in the word of God but in a religion that offers your flesh more than God's very own testimony of what truth is.  Men like you walk by the sight of the eyes, than by naked faith in the witness of God concerning TRUTH.

It is no secret that your faith affirms, that the bread and wine in the Lord's supper are transubstantiated into the very body and blood of Christ, and so eaten: but this is not to be understood of eating and drinking in the Lord's supper, which, as yet, was not instituted.

To eat the flesh, and drink the blood of Christ, is to believe that Christ is come in the flesh, and is truly and really the Son of God; that his flesh is given for the life of his people, and his blood is shed for their sins, and this with some view and application to themselves: it is to partake of, and enjoy the several blessings of grace procured by him, such as redemption, pardon, peace, justification, etc.  and such a feeding upon him as is attended with growth in grace, and in the knowledge of him, and is daily to be repeated, as our corporeal food is, otherwise persons have no life in them

This and many more reasons is why I am not a Romans Catholic, even though I belong the the Universal church of Jesus Christ~which is invisible to the eye of man, and unknown of them.

Quote1 Corinthians 2:15,16~But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ."

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 03:06:57All said without any evidence whatsoever. But then that's Protestantism. Only Catholics have to provide evidence!

You know Winsome, I have had the same thoughts about what you are saying concerning giving evidence, when others do not, I DO understand those feelings very well~BUT that's not the case with all, some do, and I am one that believes in using scriptures to support my position.  But your friend above does not make much sense in his own post, maybe you can help him out a little.

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

Quote from: Red Baker on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:50:28

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 03:06:57All said without any evidence whatsoever. But then that's Protestantism. Only Catholics have to provide evidence!

You know Winsome, I have had the same thoughts about what you are saying concerning giving evidence, when others do not, I DO understand those feelings very well~BUT that's not the case with all, some do, and I am one that believes in using scriptures to support my position.  But your friend above does not make much sense in his own post, maybe you can help him out a little.

Yes, I was exaggerating somewhat to make the point. I know you quote a lot of scripture RB.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

We believe that God has children that are Catholics, but we also believe that they should come out of her, that they be not partakers of their many corruptions~but I also firmly believe some may never come out of her.  That being said:

Quote2 Timothy 2:19~ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

If one loves God and fears him, he must depart from all iniquity, or else, should never expect to be among the faithful in that day.

Quote from: Red Baker on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:42:56

To eat the flesh, and drink the blood of Christ, is to believe that Christ is come in the flesh, and is truly and really the Son of God; that his flesh is given for the life of his people, and his blood is shed for their sins, and this with some view and application to themselves: it is to partake of, and enjoy the several blessings of grace procured by him, such as redemption, pardon, peace, justification, etc.  and such a feeding upon him as is attended with growth in grace, and in the knowledge of him, and is daily to be repeated, as our corporeal food is, otherwise persons have no life in them

That may be your opinion RB but you are wrong (and you supply no evidence to back that up).

Quote from: Red Baker on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:06:16

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

We believe that God has children that are Catholics, but we also believe that they should come out of her, that they be not partakers of their many corruptions~but I also firmly believe some may never come out of her.  That being said:

Quote2 Timothy 2:19~ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

If one loves God and fears him, he must depart from all iniquity, or else, should never expect to be among the faithful in that day.

Why would a Catholic leave the Church that Christ founded and go to one founded by men?

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

What does "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" mean?

 "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" means, "outside the Church there is no salvation."

Every Pope has said it, and it is dogma in the Catholic Church.  It means if you don't follow the principles laid out by the Vatican, you cannot be saved!

Is this really what Jesus taught?

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:23:43

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

What does "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" mean?

Not what you apparently think it means.

In the 1940's there was a Fr. Feeney who taught that the above literally means that unless you are a member of the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

This cause so much dispute that the Holy Office sent a formal letter to Archbishop Cushing of Boston explaining the true understanding of this matter and condemning Feeney's understanding. This was approved by the Pope himself.

I'll quote a bit of it and you can look up the rest:

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:42:33

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:23:43

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

What does "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" mean?

Not what you apparently think it means.

In the 1940's there was a Fr. Feeney who taught that the above literally means that unless you are a member of the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

This cause so much dispute that the Holy Office sent a formal letter to Archbishop Cushing of Boston explaining the true understanding of this matter and condemning Feeney's understanding. This was approved by the Pope himself.

I'll quote a bit of it and you can look up the rest:

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

You can't deny it!

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 06:08:31

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:42:33

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:23:43

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

What does "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" mean?

Not what you apparently think it means.

In the 1940's there was a Fr. Feeney who taught that the above literally means that unless you are a member of the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

This cause so much dispute that the Holy Office sent a formal letter to Archbishop Cushing of Boston explaining the true understanding of this matter and condemning Feeney's understanding. This was approved by the Pope himself.

I'll quote a bit of it and you can look up the rest:

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

You can't deny it!

You missed out the next part:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

And from the Compendium to the Catechism:

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation "Outside the Church there is no salvation"?
846-848
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 06:15:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 06:08:31

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:42:33

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:23:43

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

What does "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" mean?

Not what you apparently think it means.

In the 1940's there was a Fr. Feeney who taught that the above literally means that unless you are a member of the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

This cause so much dispute that the Holy Office sent a formal letter to Archbishop Cushing of Boston explaining the true understanding of this matter and condemning Feeney's understanding. This was approved by the Pope himself.

I'll quote a bit of it and you can look up the rest:

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

You can't deny it!

You missed out the next part:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

And from the Compendium to the Catechism:

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation "Outside the Church there is no salvation"?
846-848
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation "Outside the Church there is no salvation"?
846-848
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

This is how the Catholics avoid being pinned down.

The second sentance says "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her.

In the same paragraph they say "At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

It's a total contradiction to hide their true belief.

I know the Gospel of Christ. By refusing the principles of the Vatican, that means, I cannot be saved.

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 06:34:07

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 06:15:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 06:08:31

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:42:33

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:23:43

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:56:09

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
Winsome, do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and the Vatican does not say there isn't.

What does "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" mean?

Not what you apparently think it means.

In the 1940's there was a Fr. Feeney who taught that the above literally means that unless you are a member of the Catholic Church you cannot be saved.

This cause so much dispute that the Holy Office sent a formal letter to Archbishop Cushing of Boston explaining the true understanding of this matter and condemning Feeney's understanding. This was approved by the Pope himself.

I'll quote a bit of it and you can look up the rest:

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

You can't deny it!

You missed out the next part:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

And from the Compendium to the Catechism:

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation "Outside the Church there is no salvation"?
846-848
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation "Outside the Church there is no salvation"?
846-848
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

This is how the Catholics avoid being pinned down.

The second sentance says "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her.

In the same paragraph they say "At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

It's a total contradiction to hide their true belief.

It's not a contradiction at all. You just refuse to acknowledge that the Catholic Church does not teach what you claim it teaches.

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 06:43:57
I know the Gospel of Christ. By refusing the principles of the Vatican, that means, I cannot be saved.

No it doesn't.

 Some time ago, Catholica wrote an excellent post explaining Outside The Church There Is No Salvation.

It was so good I kept a copy. Catholica doesn't seem to be around at the moment but I hope he will excuse me if I reproduce it here.

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation

I've said all along that membership in a Church is not a requirement for salvation.  Let's focus here on just people to whom are not invincibly ignorant, which is basically almost everybody.

* If a person is never baptized, then they cannot in truth hope to be saved.  They are "outside the Church". They are not infallibly damned either, but they have no hope to be saved according to the revelation we have received from God.

* If a person is baptized, they are no longer "outside the Church".  If they die before committing a mortal sin, they will be saved.  It doesn't matter if they call themselves Catholic or not. 

* If a person is baptized, and then commits a mortal sin, they are then "outside the Church".  If they do not repent of that mortal sin before they die, then they have no hope to be saved according to any revelation we have received from God.

* If a person is baptized, and whenever they commit a mortal sin, repent, so that at the end of their life they have repented from all mortal sins, then they are not "outside the Church", and they will be saved.

That is the bare minimum one needs to know about "Outside the Church there is no Salvation". 

It doesn't mean:
* That someone who doesn't call themselves Catholic will be lost.
* That someone who calls themselves Catholic will be saved.

Now to get more nuanced, there is a lot to say about moral culpability when a person is in a state of grace as to whether something they do is a sin or not.  There is no objective standard for each person that can simply be applied because 1) Only God knows the hearts of each man and 2) a person's culpability for sin is based on their situation, and their response to God's grace.

To be simple, consider these matters:

1. Truth is important and truth helps us be finally saved.
2. Grace is important and grace helps us be finally saved.
3. Charity is important and charity helps us be finally saved.

By "finally saved" I mean "persevere to the end".  A person is brought to a point in their life where they are living in a state of grace, which means that they have the divine life living in them.  However this divine life is darkened by sin and confused by deception, and this often cools a person's charity, which is sacrificial love for God and neighbour.

As a remedy:

1. Against untruth God has established a tangible Church to safeguard and proclaim the Truth to the whole world, including all believers.
2. To sustain grace, he implemented a tangible means for a person to receive grace: His seven sacraments.
3. To inflame charity in the heart, he gives us himself in a tangible way in the most Holy Eucharist.

It is important for the Church to be tangible, because before a person has received the supernatural gift of faith, he only has natural gifts, reason being one.  A reasonable person should be able to discover the Church God established.  It is important for the means of grace to be tangible, because through that same Church we can be assured of whether or not we remain in that state of grace and know the way to return, with assurance.  It is important for charity to be inflamed in a tangible way, because otherwise we fall subject to our emotions, which we confuse with love sometimes.  We can love someone even when we don't feel it sometimes.  And the Eucharist shows that God loves us even when we don't feel it sometimes.  It rescues us from our feeling abandoned by a God who seems distant and saves us from our doubt whether or not "this is all in our head".

Why is it important to be Catholic then in order to be finally saved?  Because:

1. The Catholic Church was established by God to be the purveyor of revelation safeguarded by the Holy Spirit.  To know God is to love him.  If you believe the Truth, then you can better love God for who He actually is.
2. Jesus established the hierarchy of the Church to safeguard and provide the sacraments which are our helps for final salvation.  While baptism can be ministered by anybody and matrimony is ministered by the Bride and Groom, for the other sacraments Jesus gave us the gift of the ministerial priesthood, to prevent their abuse and to give us assurance regarding their proper administration.
3. Only those in union with the revealed Truth and the ministerial priesthood can receive the Eucharist, because we are called to worship in Spirit and Truth, and the Eucharist is God's established worship in the mass.

So while it is not objectively necessary to be a Catholic to be finally saved, it is very important to become one, lest you become deceived by false teaching, which leads you to believe false things about God, which (when believed and found lacking) lead a person to despair about God's existence and possibly ultimately reject God.  It is also important to be Catholic to be able to receive the sacrament of reconciliation, which is the easiest and surest means to receive forgiveness of sins.  It is also important to become Catholic so that you can be inflamed with love through the Eucharist, through which Jesus distributes his grace to the world.

I don't believe that I can make it much clearer that this.  Baptism is the only way which we know regenerates us.  It is the only absolutely necessary sacrament.  But for most people, who have long hard lives, we need the grace of God to sustain us lest we succumb to our fallen nature.  The other sacraments do this.  But as long as we remain in the state of grace from baptism and on or through true repentance of sin, then we will be saved, regardless of whether or not what title one ascribes to himself.  And being in this state of grace means that a person is not "outside the Church".

All keeping in mind that rejecting that one needs to be in full communion with the Church that proclaims the full revealed truth about Jesus is itself a sin.  Thus, if one learns that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ for their salvation, and then refuses to enter it, one is guilty of a mortal sin, and to repent, they must enter into it.  So in that case, they must become Catholic or else have a mortal sin on their soul which they have not repented of.  If they don't enter it before they die, they will be lost.

Quote from: Red Baker on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:42:56

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 01:33:241- you have came to realize bible alone in unbiblical (1 Tim 3:15) 2- you have started to take John 6:53 literally and believe in the Eucharist If you have these two things down everything else will work it self out

You do not even have the first two down correctly, and besides you contradict 1 and 2.  "IF" you believe the bible alone is unbiblical then WHY are you trying to convince others that they should take John 6:53 literal?  It makes no sense for you to make the two statements.

There is no contradiction here RB.

One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

On the other hand, outside of the RC Church there are many, many who are saved.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:50:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition."

Where does the Bible say that outside the church there is no salvation?

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:56:34

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:50:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition."

Where does the Bible say that outside the church there is no salvation?

If one is a believer he is in the church.  If he is not a believer he is not saved.  (Mark 16:16 directly and many more both directly and indirectly)

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:03:46

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:56:34

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:50:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition."

Where does the Bible say that outside the church there is no salvation?

If one is a believer he is in the church.  If he is not a believer he is not saved.  (Mark 16:16 directly and many more both directly and indirectly)

So the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:18:47

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:03:46

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:56:34

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:50:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition."

Where does the Bible say that outside the church there is no salvation?

If one is a believer he is in the church.  If he is not a believer he is not saved.  (Mark 16:16 directly and many more both directly and indirectly)

So the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The believers are the church; the church is the body of believers.  Those outside the church are nonbelievers.  Nonbelievers are not saved (Mark 16:16)  For what it is worth, I believe that there are even some members of the RCC that are in the church.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:26:36

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:18:47

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:03:46

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:56:34

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:50:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition."

Where does the Bible say that outside the church there is no salvation?

If one is a believer he is in the church.  If he is not a believer he is not saved.  (Mark 16:16 directly and many more both directly and indirectly)

So the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The believers are the church; the church is the body of believers.  Those outside the church are nonbelievers.  Nonbelievers are not saved (Mark 16:16)  For what it is worth, I believe that there are even some members of the RCC that are in the church.

As I said - the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

"Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mk 16:15-16)

Jesus says that those to whom the gospel is preached will be condemned if they do not believe.

As Paul says:
But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?  And how can people preach unless they are sent? (Rom 10:14-15)

Paul also makes clear that God has made provision for such people:
He made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us. (Acts 17:26-27).

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 01:33:24
1- you have came to realize bible alone in unbiblical (1 Tim 3:15)

2- you have started to take John 6:53 literally and believe in the Eucharist


If you have these two things down everything else will work it self out


God bless

You posted a thread that was moved to the Debate forum wherein you asked the question, how can a non-Catholic do God's will?

And now this. I wonder if you've asked a priest or gone to God in prayer and asked why it is you are on a path that appears to impart the message that you are anti-Protestant?

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:38:49

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:26:36

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:18:47

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:03:46

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:56:34

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:50:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition."

Where does the Bible say that outside the church there is no salvation?

If one is a believer he is in the church.  If he is not a believer he is not saved.  (Mark 16:16 directly and many more both directly and indirectly)

So the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The believers are the church; the church is the body of believers.  Those outside the church are nonbelievers.  Nonbelievers are not saved (Mark 16:16)  For what it is worth, I believe that there are even some members of the RCC that are in the church.

As I said - the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

"Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mk 16:15-16)

Jesus says that those to whom the gospel is preached will be condemned if they do not believe.

As Paul says:
But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?  And how can people preach unless they are sent? (Rom 10:14-15)

Paul also makes clear that God has made provision for such people:
He made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us. (Acts 17:26-27).

If they "find" Him are they not believers?  But perhaps more to the point,  I do not believe that all those who have not had a chance to hear are condemned.  But I do not believe either that they will be "saved".  I believe that God has made provisions for them, but we have not been told what that is.

Paul warned in Romans,

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19  because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:44:07

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 01:33:24
1- you have came to realize bible alone in unbiblical (1 Tim 3:15)

2- you have started to take John 6:53 literally and believe in the Eucharist


If you have these two things down everything else will work it self out


God bless

You posted a thread that was moved to the Debate forum wherein you asked the question, how can a non-Catholic do God's will?

And now this. I wonder if you've asked a priest or gone to God in prayer and asked why it is you are on a path that appears to impart the message that you are anti-Protestant?

I think most Catholics are going to hell out of what they know and most non Catholics are going to hell for what they don't know.  I am trying to help save your soul.  Before when I was a evangelical my life was really no different than when I was an agnostic.  I found a church that didn't teach on the topics that morally where difficult for me to change and I believed in once saved always saved so sin didn't matter any way.  Finally people (3) killed them self at my evangelical church because of once saved always saved they where living sinful lives and o well I'm saved I'll just off my self and go to heaven.
My life really didn't change until I considersd the catholic church so I want the same for you out there.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:38:49

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:26:36

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:18:47

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:03:46

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:56:34

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:50:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:42:33

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 07:35:53
One more time we find a discussion in which differences have to do with definitions, not with the Bible.  In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition.

Evidence?

Or are we supposed to take your personal opinions as true without evidence?

Evidence??  The Bible!!  Where else would I find the definition of church?

Mat 16:18  "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My [ekklēsia] church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

From Strong's:

G1577

ἐκκλησία

ekklēsia

ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"In fact the Bible clearly states that outside the church there is no salvation, the church being that body of saints, the body of believers.  That is by definition."

Where does the Bible say that outside the church there is no salvation?

If one is a believer he is in the church.  If he is not a believer he is not saved.  (Mark 16:16 directly and many more both directly and indirectly)

So the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The believers are the church; the church is the body of believers.  Those outside the church are nonbelievers.  Nonbelievers are not saved (Mark 16:16)  For what it is worth, I believe that there are even some members of the RCC that are in the church.

As I said - the Bible doesn't say outside the church there is no salvation! That's just your personal opinion from faulty exegesis.

"Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mk 16:15-16)

Jesus says that those to whom the gospel is preached will be condemned if they do not believe.

As Paul says:
But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?  And how can people preach unless they are sent? (Rom 10:14-15)

Paul also makes clear that God has made provision for such people:
He made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us. (Acts 17:26-27).

If they "find" Him are they not believers?  But perhaps more to the point,  I do not believe that all those who have not had a chance to hear are condemned.  But I do not believe either that they will be "saved".  I believe that God has made provisions for them, but we have not been told what that is.

Paul warned in Romans,

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19  because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Excellent! We got there!

Now you are saying exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.

As I quoted earlier
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."