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I appreciate that you believe the Catholic doctrine will save souls.

However, I would suggest that if a soul is to be saved one would accomplished  that end by leaving the church. And finding God and Jesus Christ where Jesus Christ taught us to look.

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:59:33

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:44:07

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 01:33:24
1- you have came to realize bible alone in unbiblical (1 Tim 3:15)

2- you have started to take John 6:53 literally and believe in the Eucharist


If you have these two things down everything else will work it self out


God bless

You posted a thread that was moved to the Debate forum wherein you asked the question, how can a non-Catholic do God's will?

And now this. I wonder if you've asked a priest or gone to God in prayer and asked why it is you are on a path that appears to impart the message that you are anti-Protestant?

I think most Catholics are going to hell out of what they know and most non Catholics are going to hell for what they don't know.  I am trying to help save your soul.  Before when I was a evangelical my life was really no different than when I was an agnostic.  I found a church that didn't teach on the topics that morally where difficult for me to change and I believed in once saved always saved so sin didn't matter any way.  Finally people (3) killed them self at my evangelical church because of once saved always saved they where living sinful lives and o well I'm saved I'll just off my self and go to heaven.
My life really didn't change until I considersd the catholic church so I want the same for you out there.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:51:59

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

That's not true. Pope Francis has reiterated the same rhetoric his predecessor did. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:16:42

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:51:59

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

That's not true. Pope Francis has reiterated the same rhetoric his predecessor did. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

See post #13

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:26:46

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:16:42

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:51:59

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

That's not true. Pope Francis has reiterated the same rhetoric his predecessor did. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

See post #13

I did see your post 13. And I know many a Catholic. And when I speak to them saying; as a Christian...they correct me and say; I am a Catholic.

And again I reiterate. The Catholic church, Pope Francis, reiterated that outside the church there is no salvation.
This is something every Catholic knows.

The First And Last Name Of A Christian
· Pope Francis' catechesis at the General Audience ·
June 25, 2014

(Sic)"...3. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no "do it yourself", there are no "free agents". How many times did Pope Benedict "describe the Church as an ecclesial 'we'"! At times one hears someone say: "I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don't care about the Church...". How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations."


And there is this, which has not changed in hundreds of years. No Pope is going to say there is salvation in other, Protestant, faiths.

Catholicism.Org Category Archives: OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:26:46

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:16:42

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:51:59

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

That's not true. Pope Francis has reiterated the same rhetoric his predecessor did. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

See post #13

I did see your post 13. And I know many a Catholic. And when I speak to them saying; as a Christian...they correct me and say; I am a Catholic.

And again I reiterate. The Catholic church, Pope Francis, reiterated that outside the church there is no salvation.
This is something every Catholic knows.

The First And Last Name Of A Christian
· Pope Francis' catechesis at the General Audience ·
June 25, 2014

(Sic)"...3. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no "do it yourself", there are no "free agents". How many times did Pope Benedict "describe the Church as an ecclesial 'we'"! At times one hears someone say: "I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don't care about the Church...". How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations."

Nowhere in that address does Pope Francis use the words Catholic Church. He is referring to the Church as the body of Christ and that includes all baptised Christians.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22
And there is this, which has not changed in hundreds of years. No Pope is going to say there is salvation in other, Protestant, faiths.

Catholicism.Org Category Archives: OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

Let's stick to what the Catholic Church officially teaches and not some fringe group that is not fully accepting Catholic teaching.

Then follow this logic:
1. The Catholic Church believes that baptism is salvific. Those who are baptised are saved.

2. The Catholic Church accepts the baptism of the Orthodox and some Protestant denominations as valid.

3. Therefore the Catholic Church believes that Orthodox and those in Protestant denominations, whose baptism it accepts as valid, are saved.

 At a General Audience on 30 November 2005, Pope Benedict gave a homily on Psalm 137[136]  "If I forget you, Jerusalem" 
He seemed to be implying that the salvation of non-Christian's is a fact.

Afterwards Zenit (Catholic news organisation) interviewed the theologian Ilaria Morali about this. Here is coupel of short extracts:

In this interview with ZENIT, theologian Ilaria Morali, a professor of theology at the GregorianUniversity, and a specialist on the topic of grace, explains the Pope's words, and the Church's magisterium on the subject.

Q: The Pope said in that general audience that the salvation of non-Christians is a fact: "There are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the eternal city to which we aspire. They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for an authentic redemption." How is this possible?

Morali: According to what I have been able to read in the press or hear on the radio, the Holy Father's words have caused great surprise. It would seem that he said something absolutely new and revolutionary..............

Q: And, in this context, what is the Christian doctrine of salvation?

Morali: The Christian doctrine of salvation is very clear. To explain it, I would refer to two texts of the magisterium: The first is an address of Pius IX on the occasion of the consistory that took place on December 8, 1854, on the occasion of the solemn proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Pope said that those who do not know the true religion, when their ignorance is invincible, are not culpable before the eyes of God.

Years later he wanted to take up this teaching again clarifying the meaning of invincible ignorance in the encyclical letter "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore" of 1863. "It is known," he wrote, "that those who observe with zeal the natural law and its precepts engraved by God in the hearts of all men, can attain eternal life if they are willing to obey God and lead a good life."

Pius IX proposed again a conviction consolidated for centuries in Christian theology: There are men and women who, for various reasons, whether because of cultural conditionings, or because of an experience or a negative contact with the Christian faith, are unable to consent to the faith.

Although it might seem that these people consciously reject Christ, one cannot make an unquestionable judgment on this rejection.

Invincible ignorance indicates precisely a condition of lack of knowledge in regard to Christ, the Church, the faith, a lack of knowledge that, for the time being, cannot be overcome with an act of will.

I have left a lot out but here we have two Popes, 150 years apart,  teaching that non-Christians can be saved.
I also recommend reading post #20

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:01:28

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:26:46

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:16:42

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:51:59

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

That's not true. Pope Francis has reiterated the same rhetoric his predecessor did. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

See post #13

I did see your post 13. And I know many a Catholic. And when I speak to them saying; as a Christian...they correct me and say; I am a Catholic.

And again I reiterate. The Catholic church, Pope Francis, reiterated that outside the church there is no salvation.
This is something every Catholic knows.

The First And Last Name Of A Christian
· Pope Francis' catechesis at the General Audience ·
June 25, 2014

(Sic)"...3. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no "do it yourself", there are no "free agents". How many times did Pope Benedict "describe the Church as an ecclesial 'we'"! At times one hears someone say: "I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don't care about the Church...". How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations."

Nowhere in that address does Pope Francis use the words Catholic Church. He is referring to the Church as the body of Christ and that includes all baptised Christians.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22
And there is this, which has not changed in hundreds of years. No Pope is going to say there is salvation in other, Protestant, faiths.

Catholicism.Org Category Archives: OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

Let's stick to what the Catholic Church officially teaches and not some fringe group that is not fully accepting Catholic teaching.

To be sure some here are trying to do just that. However, you appear to be in deficit in that regard and one can't help wonder why.

You see, those links I posted and that you claim are fringe groups not fully accepting of Catholic teaching are exactly the opposite of what you claim of them. And this tells me that you didn't read the excerpt I posted nor did you bother to click the source links themselves.

I know this because The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are the sponsors of Catholicism.Org. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary were founded in 1949 by  Father Leonard Feeney, M.I.C.M.
Founding Superior of Saint Benedict Center.

Therefore, it is a fair guess they'd know just a teensy weensy bit about Catholic doctrine and the teachings of the church.

While the article excerpt I provided on the speech afforded by Pope Francis is sourced from L'Osservatore Romano. It's office is in Vatican City and it is the Official Vatican Media.

Do you know the Latin:extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?

Care to try again?

It looks to me as if there is debate within the RCC as to whether or not there is salvation outside the RCC.  Therefore the debate that is being held on this forum is a mirror to the debate going on inside the RCC.

To be perfectly honest, I don't see a definitive answer on either side.  Though when it comes to the RCC, I hope winsome's side of the debate wins.

Quote from: BondServant on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:40:19
It looks to me as if there is debate within the RCC as to whether or not there is salvation outside the RCC.  Therefore the debate that is being held on this forum is a mirror to the debate going on inside the RCC.

To be perfectly honest, I don't see a definitive answer on either side.  Though when it comes to the RCC, I hope winsome's side of the debate wins.

I would think the debate has always been waged.(The Popes and Saints On:The Catholic Doctrine of No Salvation Outside the Church - List)  However, it is what the present Vicar of Christ says that speaks for the church when he is the earthly representative of Christ, per the Catholic belief.

The article from the Vatican media source I linked prior also includes Francis saying this:

(Sic)"...Special Groups Dear friends, let us ask the Lord, through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church, for the grace never to fall into the temptation of thinking we can make it without the others, that we can get along without the Church, that we can save ourselves on our own, of being Christians from the laboratory. On the contrary, you cannot love God without loving your brothers, you cannot love God outside of the Church; you cannot be in communion with God without being so in the Church, and we cannot be good Christians if we are not together with those who seek to follow the Lord Jesus, as one single people, one single body, and this is the Church. Thank you."

Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

I'd say that's pretty consistent with being a Christian.
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant, and what it identifies of itself as "the church".

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Salvation comes only though Jesus Christ. You could be a believer and never go inside a church. Yes we are part of His body, but being a member of a church doesnt save you.

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:20:02

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Salvation comes only though Jesus Christ. You could be a believer and never go inside a church. Yes we are part of His body, but being a member of a church doesnt save you.

That's what we call a straw-man fallacy.  Are you willfully ignorant at this point?  This has all been gone over before, even earlier in this thread.  Try reading winsome's red-colored text in reply #20, and then we can have a meaningful discussion.  It behooves you as a Christian to do so, otherwise your tongue may start a fire a la James 3.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

I'd say that's pretty consistent with being a Christian.
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant, and what it identifies of itself as "the church".

I am having a bit of trouble understanding your sentence.  What you mean by "what (the Roman Catholic Church) identifies of itself as "the church""?  How exactly do you see that statement as wrong?  Are you saying that the hierarchy is not part of the church?  Are you saying that all Catholics are not part of the church?  Are you saying that you think the Catholic Church is saying that people who aren't strict members of the Catholic Church are not the church?  Or what?

Fr. Feeney was excommunicated and his doctrine was heretical.  Quoting him isn't really going to help you in this discussion.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:01:28

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:26:46

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:16:42

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:51:59

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

That's not true. Pope Francis has reiterated the same rhetoric his predecessor did. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

See post #13

I did see your post 13. And I know many a Catholic. And when I speak to them saying; as a Christian...they correct me and say; I am a Catholic.

And again I reiterate. The Catholic church, Pope Francis, reiterated that outside the church there is no salvation.
This is something every Catholic knows.

The First And Last Name Of A Christian
· Pope Francis' catechesis at the General Audience ·
June 25, 2014

(Sic)"...3. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no "do it yourself", there are no "free agents". How many times did Pope Benedict "describe the Church as an ecclesial 'we'"! At times one hears someone say: "I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don't care about the Church...". How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations."

Nowhere in that address does Pope Francis use the words Catholic Church. He is referring to the Church as the body of Christ and that includes all baptised Christians.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22
And there is this, which has not changed in hundreds of years. No Pope is going to say there is salvation in other, Protestant, faiths.

Catholicism.Org Category Archives: OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

Let's stick to what the Catholic Church officially teaches and not some fringe group that is not fully accepting Catholic teaching.

To be sure some here are trying to do just that. However, you appear to be in deficit in that regard and one can't help wonder why.

You see, those links I posted and that you claim are fringe groups not fully accepting of Catholic teaching are exactly the opposite of what you claim of them. And this tells me that you didn't read the excerpt I posted nor did you bother to click the source links themselves.

I know this because The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are the sponsors of Catholicism.Org. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary were founded in 1949 by  Father Leonard Feeney, M.I.C.M.
Founding Superior of Saint Benedict Center.

Yes, and they were the bunch condemned by the Vatican. I thought you read post #13

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29
Therefore, it is a fair guess they'd know just a teensy weensy bit about Catholic doctrine and the teachings of the church.

And you think they know more than  the Vatican, the Popes and the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29
While the article excerpt I provided on the speech afforded by Pope Francis is sourced from L'Osservatore Romano. It's office is in Vatican City and it is the Official Vatican Media.

And as I said: Nowhere in that address does Pope Francis use the words Catholic Church. He is referring to the Church as the body of Christ and that includes all baptised Christians.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29
Care to try again?

Would you?

How can we stay on topic ?

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:45:46

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

I'd say that's pretty consistent with being a Christian.
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant, and what it identifies of itself as "the church".

I am having a bit of trouble understanding your sentence.  What you mean by "what (the Roman Catholic Church) identifies of itself as "the church""?  How exactly do you see that statement as wrong?  Are you saying that the hierarchy is not part of the church?  Are you saying that all Catholics are not part of the church?  Are you saying that you think the Catholic Church is saying that people who aren't strict members of the Catholic Church are not the church?  Or what?

Fr. Feeney was excommunicated and his doctrine was heretical.  Quoting him isn't really going to help you in this discussion.

RCC history doesn't need to help me. RCC history speaks for itself.

His excommunication means nothing to the facts cited in his article.
But it is insightful that you believe someone is no longer able to post church history in an article because the church has decided they are no longer Catholic. 

Moving on, the Catholic church has a definition of itself as to what "Church" means doesn't it?
My sentence was clear in stating just that. That what is important is how the RCC defines church as pertains to itself.

Thank you for confirming what I thought when reading your errant postings.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:51:39

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:01:28

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:26:46

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:16:42

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 08:51:59

Quote from: Charlie24 on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 04:37:34
do you believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church? The Vatican says so!

Actually, the Vatican USED to say so.  Not that way any more.

That's not true. Pope Francis has reiterated the same rhetoric his predecessor did. There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

See post #13

I did see your post 13. And I know many a Catholic. And when I speak to them saying; as a Christian...they correct me and say; I am a Catholic.

And again I reiterate. The Catholic church, Pope Francis, reiterated that outside the church there is no salvation.
This is something every Catholic knows.

The First And Last Name Of A Christian
· Pope Francis' catechesis at the General Audience ·
June 25, 2014

(Sic)"...3. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no "do it yourself", there are no "free agents". How many times did Pope Benedict "describe the Church as an ecclesial 'we'"! At times one hears someone say: "I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don't care about the Church...". How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations."

Nowhere in that address does Pope Francis use the words Catholic Church. He is referring to the Church as the body of Christ and that includes all baptised Christians.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 09:41:22
And there is this, which has not changed in hundreds of years. No Pope is going to say there is salvation in other, Protestant, faiths.

Catholicism.Org Category Archives: OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

Let's stick to what the Catholic Church officially teaches and not some fringe group that is not fully accepting Catholic teaching.

To be sure some here are trying to do just that. However, you appear to be in deficit in that regard and one can't help wonder why.

You see, those links I posted and that you claim are fringe groups not fully accepting of Catholic teaching are exactly the opposite of what you claim of them. And this tells me that you didn't read the excerpt I posted nor did you bother to click the source links themselves.

I know this because The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are the sponsors of Catholicism.Org. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary were founded in 1949 by  Father Leonard Feeney, M.I.C.M.
Founding Superior of Saint Benedict Center.

Yes, and they were the bunch condemned by the Vatican. I thought you read post #13

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29
Therefore, it is a fair guess they'd know just a teensy weensy bit about Catholic doctrine and the teachings of the church.

And you think they know more than  the Vatican, the Popes and the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29
While the article excerpt I provided on the speech afforded by Pope Francis is sourced from L'Osservatore Romano. It's office is in Vatican City and it is the Official Vatican Media.

And as I said: Nowhere in that address does Pope Francis use the words Catholic Church. He is referring to the Church as the body of Christ and that includes all baptised Christians.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 10:21:29
Care to try again?

Would you?

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:42:58

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:20:02

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Salvation comes only though Jesus Christ. You could be a believer and never go inside a church. Yes we are part of His body, but being a member of a church doesnt save you.

That's what we call a straw-man fallacy.  Are you willfully ignorant at this point?  This has all been gone over before, even earlier in this thread.  Try reading winsome's red-colored text in reply #20, and then we can have a meaningful discussion.  It behooves you as a Christian to do so, otherwise your tongue may start a fire a la James 3.

It is not a strawman fallacy. Perhaps informing yourself of what a strawman is will help you not to wrongly implicate Choosenone's remarks about what it is to be a Christian.

What it takes to be a Catholic is another matter of course. She was however spot on as to what it takes to be a Christian.

Secondly, perhaps you should take a break from this thread and take a very deep breath so that you don't show your close to the line disrespect of a lady member of our Moderating team. Your remarks are out of line and if you are secure in your position as a Catholic you shouldn't be led to address someone in that way.

Perhaps James 3 should be your next stop.

Thank you.

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:42:58

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:20:02

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Salvation comes only though Jesus Christ. You could be a believer and never go inside a church. Yes we are part of His body, but being a member of a church doesnt save you.

That's what we call a straw-man fallacy.  Are you willfully ignorant at this point?  This has all been gone over before, even earlier in this thread.  Try reading winsome's red-colored text in reply #20, and then we can have a meaningful discussion.  It behooves you as a Christian to do so, otherwise your tongue may start a fire a la James 3.

What is it about what I said that is wrong?

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:25:34

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:42:58

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:20:02

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Salvation comes only though Jesus Christ. You could be a believer and never go inside a church. Yes we are part of His body, but being a member of a church doesnt save you.

That's what we call a straw-man fallacy.  Are you willfully ignorant at this point?  This has all been gone over before, even earlier in this thread.  Try reading winsome's red-colored text in reply #20, and then we can have a meaningful discussion.  It behooves you as a Christian to do so, otherwise your tongue may start a fire a la James 3.

What is it about what I said that is wrong?

You have implied that someone believes that being a member of a church saves you.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:18:53

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:42:58

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:20:02

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Salvation comes only though Jesus Christ. You could be a believer and never go inside a church. Yes we are part of His body, but being a member of a church doesnt save you.

That's what we call a straw-man fallacy.  Are you willfully ignorant at this point?  This has all been gone over before, even earlier in this thread.  Try reading winsome's red-colored text in reply #20, and then we can have a meaningful discussion.  It behooves you as a Christian to do so, otherwise your tongue may start a fire a la James 3.

It is not a strawman fallacy. Perhaps informing yourself of what a strawman is will help you not to wrongly implicate Choosenone's remarks about what it is to be a Christian.

What it takes to be a Catholic is another matter of course. She was however spot on as to what it takes to be a Christian.

Secondly, perhaps you should take a break from this thread and take a very deep breath so that you don't show your close to the line disrespect of a lady member of our Moderating team. Your remarks are out of line and if you are secure in your position as a Catholic you shouldn't be led to address someone in that way.

Perhaps James 3 should be your next stop.

Thank you.

How has what I have said been uncharitable?

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:10:17
How can we stay on topic ?

You can't

It seems to be natural law of discussion forums that they go off topic by the fifth reply if not earlier. 

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant

And which came first? The Catholic Church with 73 books or Protestant churches with 63?

1.) You accept the source of authority is the Bible and the Apocryphal books. The Apocrypha were not canonized by the Roman Catholic church until the Council of Trent in 1546 AD. And are not accepted in the Protestant Canon because their authorship is pseudonymous.

2.) You do not accept that Jesus Christ paid the full penalty for sin in order to qualify for Heaven as one born again and as such you agree that you will have to spend some time in Purgatory to atone for your sins. (Before doing so however you may wish to review: John 19:30 and Hebrews 10:11-12)

3.) You disagree with the sacred teachings in 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus... And agree that his mother Mary is a valid Mediatrix between yourself and the Godhead.

4.) You agree that you are only saved through the authority vested in the Roman Catholic church and its sacraments, especially through sprinkle baptism. And you agree that salvation cannot be obtained outside the Roman Catholic church. (Unum Sanctum)
You agree also that Christ did not suffer to take the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. BUt that your own suffering can expiate the sins of yourself and of others so that Christs suffering, while not able to achieve its own work and that of the world can be achieved by you and others who suffer so as to make up that deficit.

5. You agree that faith alone does not save, as the aforementioned Council of Trent decreed that (Sola Fide) anathema.

6.Instead you concer with the decree of the Council of Florence in 1439, that it was Christ himself who instituted the seven sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.

1.)Baptism (sprinkle not submersion)
2.)  Confirmation
3.) Eucharist (Mass)
4.).Penance/reconciliation (Indulgences)
5.) Extreme Unction (last rights)
6.)marriage
7.)and Orders (ordination)

7.) You agree with the Lateran Council that convened in 1215 under the direction of Pope Innocent III and which the Council of Trent reaffirmed that the Mass is a continuation of the sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary. In effect, re-crucifixion of Christ who offers himself over and over as a sacrifice for sin. (Or, read Hebrews 7:27, Hebrews 9:12-26, Hebrews 10:10-18)


8.) You agree to accept what was initially a Pagan ideology and choose to believe in Purgatory. This became an official article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence and confirmed by the Council of Trent in 1548.

Under these articles you'll agree that even if you die in a state of grace, (sins forgiven, achieved salvation in Christ), that you must still spend an indefinite time being purified, cleansed, expiated, of your sins.

That is if those sins aren't purged in this life though on average you can expect, once you agree to accept the idea of Purgatory, to go there for purging. 

And you agree that your loved ones whom you leave behind can help you with prayers and good works and purchases of Masses and other indulgences to shorten your time there.


9.) And finally you agree that until there is convened another major Roman Catholic Church council, (Council of Trent 1545-1563, Vatican 1 (1869-1870) and Vatican II (1962-1965), that the proclamations concerning your Roman Catholic Faith remain as is decreed by those aforementioned Councils as to what Roman Catholic Faith is.


These are reasons to consider whether or not you might want to be a Catholic.

Thank you for reading.

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Buster - A Christian
"Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." Philippians 2:6 (KJV)

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:58:40

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant

And which came first? The Catholic Church with 73 books or Protestant churches with 63?

There are 66 books in the Protestant Bible.

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:32:58

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:18:53

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:42:58

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:20:02

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:05:26
Hi all, gave up this forum for lent.  So I thought that I'd jump in.

The ultimate problem with the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" is that there are people who misunderstand the meaning of the phrase in one way or the other.  And truth be said, that the origin of this formulation happened in the 14th century, if memory serves, and it was written by the Pope to a certain audience of Catholics who were leaving the Church, aka apostasizing.  For them, it was literally true that outside the Church there is no Salvation because they were rejecting the true faith, one that had been delivered to them.

Most people on here would say that "Outside of Christ there is no salvation".  In fact let's consider the following facts from the Bible that I believe most Christians would agree to:

1) There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.
2) As Christians we become a member of Jesus Christ's body.  This body we call "the church".
3) Therefore, outside "the church" there is no salvation.

Does anybody not agree with this?

We can see further that in fact there is at least one way a person can leave "the church" and that is by "apostasizing".  Those people who were once in "the church" cannot hope to be saved. 

Anyone have any objections?

Salvation comes only though Jesus Christ. You could be a believer and never go inside a church. Yes we are part of His body, but being a member of a church doesnt save you.

That's what we call a straw-man fallacy.  Are you willfully ignorant at this point?  This has all been gone over before, even earlier in this thread.  Try reading winsome's red-colored text in reply #20, and then we can have a meaningful discussion.  It behooves you as a Christian to do so, otherwise your tongue may start a fire a la James 3.

It is not a strawman fallacy. Perhaps informing yourself of what a strawman is will help you not to wrongly implicate Choosenone's remarks about what it is to be a Christian.

What it takes to be a Catholic is another matter of course. She was however spot on as to what it takes to be a Christian.

Secondly, perhaps you should take a break from this thread and take a very deep breath so that you don't show your close to the line disrespect of a lady member of our Moderating team. Your remarks are out of line and if you are secure in your position as a Catholic you shouldn't be led to address someone in that way.

Perhaps James 3 should be your next stop.

Thank you.

How has what I have said been uncharitable?

I think the tenor of your remarks and the false charge you levied against Choosenone are examples. If you do not agree that is your prerogative.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:03:09

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:58:40

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant

And which came first? The Catholic Church with 73 books or Protestant churches with 63?

There are 66 books in the Protestant Bible.

If you don't know which came first, you just should say so, there is no shame in that.

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:29:09

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:03:09

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:58:40

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant

And which came first? The Catholic Church with 73 books or Protestant churches with 63?

There are 66 books in the Protestant Bible.

If you don't know which came first, you just should say so, there is no shame in that.

I have no shame at all in holding to my faith. In fact I take great pride in correcting the errant who do not know how many books are in the Protestant Bible.

And by the way, being first does not necessarily mean being superior. The Protestant Bible does not contain the Apocrypha because they are not attributable to being credible works delivering the word.
Therefore, our Bible may be second but that does not mean it is less than as some would imply when they posed the question as to which came first.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:03:09

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:58:40

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant

And which came first? The Catholic Church with 73 books or Protestant churches with 63?

There are 66 books in the Protestant Bible.

OK, my maths is faulty.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:02:16

You might want to be a Catholic if:

1.) You accept the source of authority is the Bible and the Apocryphal books. The Apocrypha were not canonized by the Roman Catholic church until the Council of Trent in 1546 AD. And are not accepted in the Protestant Canon because their authorship is pseudonymous.

They were canonised over 1100 years before that.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:32:43

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:03:09

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:58:40

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 11:13:22
What is at issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own Bible that includes 7 other books not included in the Protestant

And which came first? The Catholic Church with 73 books or Protestant churches with 63?

There are 66 books in the Protestant Bible.

OK, my maths is faulty.

Do you know how many authors are credited as writing the Bible?

40

It is easy to remember if you are good with dates. 6640

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:34:12

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:02:16

You might want to be a Catholic if:

1.) You accept the source of authority is the Bible and the Apocryphal books. The Apocrypha were not canonized by the Roman Catholic church until the Council of Trent in 1546 AD. And are not accepted in the Protestant Canon because their authorship is pseudonymous.

They were canonised over 1100 years before that.

Prove it.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:54:51

Quote from: Adamski on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 13:10:17
How can we stay on topic ?

You can't

It seems to be natural law of discussion forums that they go off topic by the fifth reply if not earlier. 

Amen to that! I just got back and must leave shortly again, but will get caught up later.  Go to see Andre here.

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:35:35

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:34:12

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 14:02:16

You might want to be a Catholic if:

1.) You accept the source of authority is the Bible and the Apocryphal books. The Apocrypha were not canonized by the Roman Catholic church until the Council of Trent in 1546 AD. And are not accepted in the Protestant Canon because their authorship is pseudonymous.

They were canonised over 1100 years before that.

Prove it.

The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,--keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition..."
(Council of Trent, Session 4)

Note:- this is not establishing something new but "the books that are received by this Synod.... as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition..." The old Lating vulgate being the edition produced by Jerome.

The first definitive list was made at the Council of Rome in 482 and approved by Pope Damasus I.