Christian Forums

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:13:26

Where in scripture?

How would it be missed when the Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit?


1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Colossians 3:12-15
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.


These are just a few. It is not hard to find more if you're of a mind.

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27

Quote from: Brother Johan on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22


If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25  whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Where there does God call us holy?

Rom_11:16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Eph 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Heb_3:1  Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

1Pe_2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Rev_20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev 22:10  And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11  Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.

But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word hagios.  Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian.  That appears well over 50 times.

There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.

Quote from: Catholica on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 09:57:03

Quote from: Brother Johan on Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 17:37:51

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45

Quote from: Brother Johan on Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

How do you fit  Hebrews 10,  14 into that,  as you state   were not perfectly sanctified

For by a single offering  He  HAS  perfected  for all time those who are sanctified.

The past tense of this verse refers to Christ's sacrifice being in the past, and the quality of that sacrifice is that the merit he earned was sufficient to sanctify all Christians perfectly.

Once a person is sanctified in purgatory, they are perfected for all time.

As for those who have not reached completion, who are on the path of being sanctified.  The Catholic Church (I believe rightly) associates sanctification with holiness and righteousness.  In Hebrews 12 we read:

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
    and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

In this frame of belief, one can go back to see Hebrews 10 and it's reference to those people who "are sanctified" as being ones who have reached the conclusion of this path to perfect sanctity, setting aside sin completely.  This usually finally occurs in purgatory, as (I believe even Protestants agree) people still have attachments to sin to the end of their lives.  This is a sign of an imperfect will, one which has not set itself completely on doing the will of the Father.

I'm curious about this, do you believe that we have free will?  How about in heaven, do we have free will?  Or is this something that is taken away from us? 

To me having free will is one of the ways that God created us in his image, something that separates us from the brute animals.

1 Corinthians 6,  11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you  WERE SANCTIFIED, you were justified in the name
of our Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Were sanctified,   past tense,  not will be sanctified in purgatory.

Whether protestants agree or not, I don't know,  I am not a Protestant.

Do I believe in free will?  Before I answer that please give me your understanding of free will.

You state,
"People still have attachments to sin to the end of their lives"
Not sure where you base this on.

1 Peter 4,  1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh
has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.

Romans 6,, 1-7
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still
live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 
We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the
Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His.
We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be
enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:28:51

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27

Quote from: Brother Johan on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22


If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25  whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Where there does God call us holy?

Rom_11:16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Eph 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Heb_3:1  Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

1Pe_2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Rev_20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev 22:10  And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11  Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.

But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word hagios.  Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian.  That appears well over 50 times.

There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.

Great post!

Blue Letter Bible Greek Lexicon

hagios = most holy thing, a saint

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:28:51

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27

Quote from: Brother Johan on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22


If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25  whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Where there does God call us holy?

Rom_11:16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Eph 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Heb_3:1  Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

1Pe_2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Rev_20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev 22:10  And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11  Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.

But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word hagios.  Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian.  That appears well over 50 times.

There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.

But what is meant by holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?

If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)

These correspond to the two type of holiness I gave in my definition:
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".

Then there is corporate holiness and individual holiness. For example the the Nicene Creed is accepted as a valid statement of faith by most Christians in the world. It describes the Church as one, holy catholic and apostolic.

The Apostles Creed, also widely accepted, refers to the holy catholic Church.

The Church is holy because it is the Body of Christ, who is all holy.

But that does not mean that all the members are holy in the sense of "the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue". It is very obvious that many are sinners.

Take 1 Peter
Peter writes to believers telling them to be holy in every aspect of their conduct.  (1Pet 1:15) and later in the same letter he gives instruction on being holy. This is individual moral holiness.

He continues later "So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander....... and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." (1Pet 2:1, 5)
Again individual moral holiness. But note –he would not have to tell them that if they were already fully holy. And also note the "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood" is onging into the future.

Then he says "But you are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation." This is a corporate holiness because they are part of the body of Christ and also holiness in the sense of being set apart, consecrated in the service of God. As he says in verse 10 (quoting from Hosea) 'Once you were "no people" but now you are God's people'. As the definition I gave says "In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God.". Now the Church is to be the holy nation – set apart, dedicated to God - holy

You speak of Scripture, but the Bible mentions only heaven and hell.
    It does not. It certainly mentions an intermediate state to which the soul of Christ went after His death on the cross. 1 Pet. III., 19. This state was neither heaven nor hell, but the Limbo of the Fathers of the Old Law. In addition to this, Scripture mentions the purgatorial state. In any case, it would not matter if the Bible did mention but two places. My mentioning only London and New York could not prove the non-existence of Paris. It would be a different matter if Christ had said, "There is no purgatory." But He did not.

How do you prove the existence of such a state?
    In Matt. V., 26, Christ, in condemning sin, speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." In Matt. XII., 32, He speaks of sin which "shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." Any remission of the effects of sin in the next world can refer only to purgatory. Above all St. Paul tells us that the day of judgment will try each man's work. That day is after death, when the soul goes to meet its God. What is the result of that judgment? If a man's work will not stand the test St. Paul says that "he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Cor. III., 15. This cannot refer to eternal loss in hell, for no one is saved there. Nor can it refer to heaven, for there is no suffering in heaven. purgatory alone can explain this text As a matter of fact, all Christians believed in purgatory until the Reformation, when the reformers began their rejection of Christian doctrines at will. Prayer for the dead was ever the prevailing custom, in accordance with the recommendation of the Bible itself. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins." 2 Mach. XII., 46. Prayer for the dead supposes a soul not in heaven where it does not need the help of prayer, nor in hell where prayer cannot assist it. Some intermediate state of purification and need, where prayer can help, is necessary. And the doctrine is most reasonable. "Nothing defiled shall enter heaven." Rev. XXL, 27. Yet not all defilement should cost man the loss of his soul. Even in this life human justice does not inflict capital punishment for every crime. Small offenses are punished by fines or by temporary imprisonment, after which the delinquent is liberated. Those who deny purgatory teach the harder and more unreasonable doctrine.

Nowhere in the Bible have I ever come across the word purgatory.
    It is not a question of words, but of realities. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, but it expresses the truth that in the one God there are the three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name we are baptised. As for purgatory, both Old and New Testaments contain prayers for the dead. That supposes them neither to be in heaven where they would not need our prayers, nor in hell where prayers could not help them. In the Old Testament we read in 2 Maccabees, 12:46 that "it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins." In the New Testament we find St. Paul praying for the soul of his benefactor, Onesiphorus: "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy in that day." As for the actual teachings of Christ, in Matt., 12:32 He speaks of a sin so malicious that "it shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." In Lk., 12:59, having described different forms of retribution for sin, He declares that there will be no release until the "last mite" due to divine justice has been paid. In Lk., 16-19f. He made the intermediate state the basis of His parable about the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus. He depicted Lazarus as being in a state of happiness after death, but the rich man as consigned to a state of suffering. The Gospel describes the rich man as being "in hell," but that expression was used in the Hebrew sense of "sheol" or the netherworld, not as indicating a state of eternal reprobation to which modern usage restricts the word hell. In fact, the rich man, amidst his own sufferings, is shown, in vv. 27-28, as filled with charitable concern for his five brothers. These passages impelled the Anglican Bishop Gore to say that they strongly point to a middle state of purification. Finally, I Peter, 3:19 tells us that, between His death and resurrection the soul of Christ went to preach "to those spirits that were in prison," a reference which the non-Catholic Peake's revised "Commentary on the Bible" (1962) declares to be best interpreted as indicating the souls of those who had died in previous ages. From all this it should be clear that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not an unbiblical teaching.

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 13:26:18

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:28:51

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27

Quote from: Brother Johan on Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22


If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25  whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Where there does God call us holy?

Rom_11:16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Eph 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Heb_3:1  Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

1Pe_2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Rev_20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev 22:10  And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11  Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.

But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word hagios.  Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian.  That appears well over 50 times.

There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.

But what is meant by holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?

If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)

G40

ἅγιος

hagios

hag'-ee-os

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Sorry winsome.  There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated.  Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level.  Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to.  If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.

Quote
But that does not mean that all the members are holy in the sense of "the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue". It is very obvious that many are sinners.

The Bible never speaks of the saints as being sinners.  They are polar opposites and there is nothing in between.

And for what it is worth I don't really acknowledge, accept or adhere to any particular creed.  Creeds have the character of codifying divisions outwardly. 

"If a man's work will not stand the test St. Paul says that "he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Cor. III., 15."

You implied this is purgatory... but it cannot be so, as this trying by the Holy Spirit is a moment, a blink in time when our "WORKS" are revealed as to being on a foundation of Christ or not. Those not will be burned off as we enter Heaven.  It's definitely a spiritual happening. The loss is works, and the fire is the Holy Spirit.  But, it has to do with our works not our SINS... (it plainly says so) while according to you and any other Catholic who tries to defend purgatory... it's a place for the purification of sins.

That is not what I Cor. is speaking about.  "Works" and "Sin" are differently.   

The rule here is that when you copy and paste from a source that is not your own that you credit that source by link-back.

Your text is copied from Radio Replies Volume 5 664 LINKED HERE

Please remember this rule for future posts wherein you copy and paste others material. Per rule 4.1c  Thanks.

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:22:09
Nowhere in the Bible have I ever come across the word purgatory.
    It is not a question of words, but of realities. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, but it expresses the truth that in the one God there are the three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name we are baptised. As for purgatory, both Old and New Testaments contain prayers for the dead. That supposes them neither to be in heaven where they would not need our prayers, nor in hell where prayers could not help them. In the Old Testament we read in 2 Maccabees, 12:46 that "it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins." In the New Testament we find St. Paul praying for the soul of his benefactor, Onesiphorus: "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy in that day." As for the actual teachings of Christ, in Matt., 12:32 He speaks of a sin so malicious that "it shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." In Lk., 12:59, having described different forms of retribution for sin, He declares that there will be no release until the "last mite" due to divine justice has been paid. In Lk., 16-19f. He made the intermediate state the basis of His parable about the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus. He depicted Lazarus as being in a state of happiness after death, but the rich man as consigned to a state of suffering. The Gospel describes the rich man as being "in hell," but that expression was used in the Hebrew sense of "sheol" or the netherworld, not as indicating a state of eternal reprobation to which modern usage restricts the word hell. In fact, the rich man, amidst his own sufferings, is shown, in vv. 27-28, as filled with charitable concern for his five brothers. These passages impelled the Anglican Bishop Gore to say that they strongly point to a middle state of purification. Finally, I Peter, 3:19 tells us that, between His death and resurrection the soul of Christ went to preach "to those spirits that were in prison," a reference which the non-Catholic Peake's revised "Commentary on the Bible" (1962) declares to be best interpreted as indicating the souls of those who had died in previous ages. From all this it should be clear that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not an unbiblical teaching.

This text is a copy paste from a Catholic Apologetic site Radio Replies Volume 1

962. You speak of Scripture, but the Bible mentions only heaven and hell

And

964. How do you prove the existence of such a state?
Linked on one page HERE

In future please link the source you copied and pasted your material from. Per rule 4.1c Thanks.

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:11:00
You speak of Scripture, but the Bible mentions only heaven and hell.
    It does not. It certainly mentions an intermediate state to which the soul of Christ went after His death on the cross. 1 Pet. III., 19. This state was neither heaven nor hell, but the Limbo of the Fathers of the Old Law. In addition to this, Scripture mentions the purgatorial state. In any case, it would not matter if the Bible did mention but two places. My mentioning only London and New York could not prove the non-existence of Paris. It would be a different matter if Christ had said, "There is no purgatory." But He did not.

How do you prove the existence of such a state?
    In Matt. V., 26, Christ, in condemning sin, speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." In Matt. XII., 32, He speaks of sin which "shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." Any remission of the effects of sin in the next world can refer only to purgatory. Above all St. Paul tells us that the day of judgment will try each man's work. That day is after death, when the soul goes to meet its God. What is the result of that judgment? If a man's work will not stand the test St. Paul says that "he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Cor. III., 15. This cannot refer to eternal loss in hell, for no one is saved there. Nor can it refer to heaven, for there is no suffering in heaven. purgatory alone can explain this text As a matter of fact, all Christians believed in purgatory until the Reformation, when the reformers began their rejection of Christian doctrines at will. Prayer for the dead was ever the prevailing custom, in accordance with the recommendation of the Bible itself. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins." 2 Mach. XII., 46. Prayer for the dead supposes a soul not in heaven where it does not need the help of prayer, nor in hell where prayer cannot assist it. Some intermediate state of purification and need, where prayer can help, is necessary. And the doctrine is most reasonable. "Nothing defiled shall enter heaven." Rev. XXL, 27. Yet not all defilement should cost man the loss of his soul. Even in this life human justice does not inflict capital punishment for every crime. Small offenses are punished by fines or by temporary imprisonment, after which the delinquent is liberated. Those who deny purgatory teach the harder and more unreasonable doctrine.

In fairness to the other member who was asked to credit the source for their copy and paste of articles shared here, please do the same with your work. Starting with page 1 and the OP and all other materials you shared here.
Per rule 4.1c

Thanks.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:

1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48) 


2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
  3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)

5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.

Purgatory
"early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge)."
(Online Etymology Dictionary)

Protestantism.
According to Wikipedia many Protestants have a similar concept but call it Glorification.
"Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups" (Wikipedia)

Judaism
Some claim that the concept of purgatory is pagan, but in fact it is rooted in Judaic beliefs.
The classic point on this as I'm sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However it is evidence of a Jewish belief, and there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.

"According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments." (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.


To be continued...

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:41:13

G40

ἅγιος

hagios

hag'-ee-os

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Sorry winsome.  There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated.  Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level.  Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to.  If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

or means two different usages

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 22:03:13
In fairness to the other member who was asked to credit the source for their copy and paste of articles shared here, please do the same with your work. Starting with page 1 and the OP and all other materials you shared here.
Per rule 4.1c

Thanks.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:

1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48) 


2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
 
  3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)

5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.

Purgatory
"early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge)."
(Online Etymology Dictionary)

Protestantism.
According to Wikipedia many Protestants have a similar concept but call it Glorification.
"Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups" (Wikipedia)

Judaism
Some claim that the concept of purgatory is pagan, but in fact it is rooted in Judaic beliefs.
The classic point on this as I'm sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However it is evidence of a Jewish belief, and there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.

"According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments." (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.


To be continued...

Scripture quotes are from the RSV-CE. The other quotes are referenced.

Winsome I'm glad to see you and some of the others in the fight contending for your faith. Whether right or wrong, you will gain respect when you face the battle.

I believe if it's worth saying it's worth the fight to prove! I see you're trying to do that! Good for you!

Don't ever take my attacks on your faith as personal, just prove me wrong.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 05:46:34

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:41:13

G40

ἅγιος

hagios

hag'-ee-os

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Sorry winsome.  There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated.  Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level.  Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to.  If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

or means two different usages

Perhaps I am beginning to understand why you think about some things as you do.  You said in Reply #179

QuoteBut what is meant by holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?

If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)

These correspond to the two type of holiness I gave in my definition:
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".

But that is not what Strong's says.  It says there are three meanings for the Greek hagios; They are "sacred", "holy" and "saint".  It further parenthetically subcategorizes or defines sacred as "physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated". It does not give two distinct meanings as sacred and religious.  The religious is simply subset of sacred.  The "or" is a connective conjunction between morally blameless and religious, not between sacred and religious. 

You could dig a little deeper into this with Vines dictionary for the use of holy in both the OT and the NT as it applies to God's people.

In the OT we have from Vines the Hebrew counterpart in qadosh - holy.

God has dedicated Israel as His people. They are "holy" by their relationship to the "holy" God. All of the people are in a sense "holy," as members of the covenant community, irrespective of their faith and obedience: "And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?" (Num_16:3). God's intent was to use this "holy" nation as a "holy," royal priesthood amongst the nations (Exo_19:6). Based on the intimate nature of the relationship, God expected His people to live up to His "holy" expectations and, thus, to demonstrate that they were a "holy nation": "And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine" (Lev_20:26).

And in the NT we have from Vines for holy.

(b) It is used of men and things (see below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way which involves divine demands upon the conduct of believers. These are called hagioi, "saints," i.e., "sanctified" or "holy" ones.
This sainthood is not an attainment, it is a state into which God in grace calls men; yet believers are called to sanctify themselves (consistently with their calling, 2Ti_1:9), cleansing themselves from all defilement, forsaking sin, living a "holy" manner of life, 1Pe_1:15; 2Pe_3:11, and experiencing fellowship with God in His holiness. The saints are thus figuratively spoken of as "a holy temple", 1Co_3:17 (a local church); Eph_2:21 (the whole Church), cp. Eph_5:27; "a holy priesthood," 1Pe_2:5; "a holy nation," 1Pe_2:9.


Do with that as you wish.

You asked, "Where does God call us holy?"  I think I have answered your question.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 05:50:05

Scripture quotes are from the RSV-CE. The other quotes are referenced.

Thank you for your edit. 

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 07:00:44

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 05:46:34

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:41:13

G40

ἅγιος

hagios

hag'-ee-os

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Sorry winsome.  There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated.  Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level.  Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to.  If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

or means two different usages

Perhaps I am beginning to understand why you think about some things as you do.  You said in Reply #179

QuoteBut what is meant by holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?

If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)

These correspond to the two type of holiness I gave in my definition:
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".

But that is not what Strong's says.  It says there are three meanings for the Greek hagios; They are "sacred", "holy" and "saint".  It further parenthetically subcategorizes or defines sacred as "physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated". It does not give two distinct meanings as sacred and religious.  The religious is simply subset of sacred.  The "or" is a connective conjunction between morally blameless and religious, not between sacred and religious. 

You could dig a little deeper into this with Vines dictionary for the use of holy in both the OT and the NT as it applies to God's people.

In the OT we have from Vines the Hebrew counterpart in qadosh - holy.

God has dedicated Israel as His people. They are "holy" by their relationship to the "holy" God. All of the people are in a sense "holy," as members of the covenant community, irrespective of their faith and obedience: "And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?" (Num_16:3). God's intent was to use this "holy" nation as a "holy," royal priesthood amongst the nations (Exo_19:6). Based on the intimate nature of the relationship, God expected His people to live up to His "holy" expectations and, thus, to demonstrate that they were a "holy nation": "And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine" (Lev_20:26).

And in the NT we have from Vines for holy.

(b) It is used of men and things (see below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way which involves divine demands upon the conduct of believers. These are called hagioi, "saints," i.e., "sanctified" or "holy" ones.
This sainthood is not an attainment, it is a state into which God in grace calls men; yet believers are called to sanctify themselves (consistently with their calling, 2Ti_1:9), cleansing themselves from all defilement, forsaking sin, living a "holy" manner of life, 1Pe_1:15; 2Pe_3:11, and experiencing fellowship with God in His holiness. The saints are thus figuratively spoken of as "a holy temple", 1Co_3:17 (a local church); Eph_2:21 (the whole Church), cp. Eph_5:27; "a holy priesthood," 1Pe_2:5; "a holy nation," 1Pe_2:9.


Do with that as you wish.

You asked, "Where does God call us holy?"  I think I have answered your question.

Concise Oxford English Dictionary
or
conjunction
1    used to link alternatives.

Dictionary definitions of holy

Mirriam-Webster
1:  exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2:  divine <for the Lord our God is holy — Psalms 99:9(Authorized Version)>
3:  devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity <a holy temple> <holy prophets>

Concise Oxford English Dictionary
1   dedicated to God or a religious purpose.
2   morally and spiritually excellent.

Collins Concise Dictionary
1. of or associated with God
2. endowed or invested with extreme purity
3. devout or virtuous

Strong
sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated)

physically pure, morally blameless is subjective
or
religious, ceremonially consecrated is objective

As per the definition I originally gave
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".

winsome,

QuoteAs per the definition I originally gave
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".

You are giving the differing aspects of stong's definition of "sacred",  not differing aspects of "holy".  Sacred and Holy are two different meanings attached to "hagios".  The third meaning is saint.  The word "saint" is one of those words introduced from the Latin into the language by the RCC long after the NT was written; how long after I am not sure.

But it doesn't matter.  Even your attempt to diminish the meaning you have nevertheless left it as holiness, i.e., holy.  And that is what you asked and what I answered.

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

I think the Catholic 'cycle' is nuts.  Good for the priests tho, maybe they get a bonus for each confession they hear nowadays?  We'd all need a personal priest at our side 24/7.  but no!  I can repent and ask forgiveness as I walk to my car (for being mean to my dog by not giving her 2 cookies... I'd use my 'kids' in this - but they've been long gone).  Or as I leave the store cause I grouched at the clerk etc.  or as I'm driving home... honestly, none of the above would keep me out of heaven you know.  I can do a one for all prayer at the end of the day.  I might have to step it up if I rob someone, or stab someone.  Unless self defense, there's little chance of that last one happening tho.

and yes, Christians CAN know they are in Christ if they are faithful to Him, keep in His word, not believing false doctrine, praying to Him and praising Him etc.  I've never doubted it since I was saved decades ago.

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:53:30

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:24:41
There is no purgatory.  Not that I can find in the Bible. 

My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea."  not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.

Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence.  (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)

It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.

Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.

If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory.  If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace.  You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't.  It's called "Faith".

An "eschatological idea" huh?  That one I haven't heard before.  Interesting, can you give me the ISBN of your Catholic Encyclopedia?  Or the Title, Publication date, or a link on Amazon?

Rather than saying "It cannot be proven real even by Catholics" you might try reading winsome's original posts and perhaps respond to that.

"Most likely drunk" is what they said of the apostles on the day of Pentecost, of Hannah when she was praying to God.  And Jesus was called a drunkard.  So we thank you for that compliment.

Purgatory is grace indeed.  What grace is not is "unmerited favor".

I'd like to think I'm reading that incorrectly, but don't think I am...

Lexicon :: Strong's G5485 - charis
χάρις           From χαίρω (G5463)

grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

good will, loving-kindness, favour of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty

thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Thayer's Greek Lexicon - for 'grace' as used in Rom 3:24

NT writers use xapis pre-eminently of that kindness by which God bestows favor on even those who are ill deserving and grants to sinners the pardon of their offenses and bids them accept of eternal salvation thru Christ.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:

And

"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.

I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here.  Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief.  Catholics almost always take them out of context.  As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from  what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it.  There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.

look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying.  Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers.  Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior. 

This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs.  I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.

The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer).  The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:

And

"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.

I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here.  Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief.  Catholics almost always take them out of context.  As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from  what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it.  There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.

look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying.  Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers.  Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior. 

This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs.  I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.

The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer).  The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.

James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)

Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:

And

"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.

I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here.  Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief.  Catholics almost always take them out of context.  As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from  what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it.  There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.

look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying.  Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers.  Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior. 

This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs.  I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.

The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer).  The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.

James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)

Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.

If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him.  OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews.  The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles).  And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.

The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that?  That happens when one is saved.  And no,  they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart? 

Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 13:56:53

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:

And

"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.

I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here.  Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief.  Catholics almost always take them out of context.  As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from  what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it.  There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.

look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying.  Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers.  Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior. 

This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs.  I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.

The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer).  The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.

James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)

Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.

If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him.  OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews.  The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles).  And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.

The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that?  That happens when one is saved.  And no,  they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart? 

Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...

James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.

If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.  Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,  and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)

Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 14:39:18

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 13:56:53

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:

And

"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.

I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here.  Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief.  Catholics almost always take them out of context.  As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from  what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it.  There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.

look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying.  Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers.  Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior. 

This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs.  I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.

The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer).  The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.

James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)

Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.

If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him.  OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews.  The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles).  And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.

The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that?  That happens when one is saved.  And no,  they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart? 

Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...

James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.

If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.  Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,  and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)

Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.

sorry winsome - the blue above that you posted is what I'm reading on here from Catholics - that we need to be perfect (their definition of it).  Didn't I read something about not sinning posted by Adamski on here?  and on other RC forums the Catholics are stating this...

as for Luther, you'll have to take that to someone who follows him,  I don't.

what did you think James would be teaching people?    about paganism? how to follow the old laws?

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 15:25:24

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 14:39:18

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 13:56:53

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:

And

"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.

I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here.  Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief.  Catholics almost always take them out of context.  As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from  what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it.  There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.

look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying.  Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers.  Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior. 

This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs.  I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.

The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer).  The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.

James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)

Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.

If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him.  OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews.  The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles).  And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.

The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that?  That happens when one is saved.  And no,  they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart? 

Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...

James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.

If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.  Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,  and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)

Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.

sorry winsome - the blue above that you posted is what I'm reading on here from Catholics - that we need to be perfect (their definition of it).  Didn't I read something about not sinning posted by Adamski on here?  and on other RC forums the Catholics are stating this...

as for Luther, you'll have to take that to someone who follows him,  I don't.

what did you think James would be teaching people?    about paganism? how to follow the old laws?

I don't know what you are referring to about Adamski.

But as I said - James is writing to Jewish Christians and he is clearly saying that we need to be purified.

"Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you."

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 05:49:16

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 15:25:24

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 14:39:18

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 15:25:24
If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him.  OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews.  The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles).  And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.

The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that?  That happens when one is saved.  And no,  they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart? 

Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...

James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.

If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.  Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,  and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)

Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.

sorry winsome - the blue above that you posted is what I'm reading on here from Catholics - that we need to be perfect (their definition of it).  Didn't I read something about not sinning posted by Adamski on here?  and on other RC forums the Catholics are stating this...

as for Luther, you'll have to take that to someone who follows him,  I don't.

what did you think James would be teaching people?    about paganism? how to follow the old laws?

I don't know what you are referring to about Adamski.

But as I said - James is writing to Jewish Christians and he is clearly saying that we need to be purified.

"Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you."

If I am wrong about it being Adamski, then I apologize to Adamski for that.
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:13:38
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.

That doesn't make sense.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:24:15

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:13:38
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.

That doesn't make sense.

? ? ? what doesn't make sense?

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 23:18:03

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:24:15

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:13:38
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.

That doesn't make sense.

? ? ? what doesn't make sense?

I think it was the way I was reading it.

Then do think that we cannot be as perfect as Christ on this earth?

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 03:18:11

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:53:30

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:24:41
There is no purgatory.  Not that I can find in the Bible. 

My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea."  not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.

Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence.  (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)

It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.

Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.

If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory.  If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace.  You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't.  It's called "Faith".

An "eschatological idea" huh?  That one I haven't heard before.  Interesting, can you give me the ISBN of your Catholic Encyclopedia?  Or the Title, Publication date, or a link on Amazon?

Rather than saying "It cannot be proven real even by Catholics" you might try reading winsome's original posts and perhaps respond to that.

"Most likely drunk" is what they said of the apostles on the day of Pentecost, of Hannah when she was praying to God.  And Jesus was called a drunkard.  So we thank you for that compliment.

Purgatory is grace indeed.  What grace is not is "unmerited favor".

I'd like to think I'm reading that incorrectly, but don't think I am...

Lexicon :: Strong's G5485 - charis
χάρις           From χαίρω (G5463)

grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

good will, loving-kindness, favour of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty

thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Thayer's Greek Lexicon - for 'grace' as used in Rom 3:24

NT writers use xapis pre-eminently of that kindness by which God bestows favor on even those who are ill deserving and grants to sinners the pardon of their offenses and bids them accept of eternal salvation thru Christ.

Strong and Thayer were Protestants.  I would expect no less.

The truth is, in the Bible it doesn't make sense for grace to mean exclusively unmerited favor.  You can tell by attempting to replace the words "unmerited favor" everywhere the word "grace" is used.

Perhaps you believe that Jesus Christ "grew in unmerited favor"? Luke 2:52.  Unmerited, my foot.

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

Quote from: doorknocker on Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24

Quote from: skeeter on Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ".  So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?  Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right?  What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"?  This can happen to anyone.  They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?

What a horrible cycle that becomes.  To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will.  Tell me you believe something else.

If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life.  He might, or he might not.  If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place.  But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.

Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above.  And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins".  Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus". 

Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace.  And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...

you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity.  Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that.  What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent. 

My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?

Yes we will be forgiven when we repent.  But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?

If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary.  If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.

If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven.  But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed).  But there is no suffering in heaven.  So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.

Every sin we commit we deserve hell.  So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve.  But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell.  That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections.  Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.

What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins.  In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents.  In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin.  A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.