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On the radio this morning there was a discussion about the "Our Father" (the Lord's prayer), and Julia Neuberger, a Senior Rabbi in the West London Synagogue of British Jews, said that she thinks this prayer is based on a much longer Jewish prayer that Jews say 3 times a day(I think it was 3 times). Jesus was giving a summary of it which I thought was very interesting. She didn't say the name of the prayer though.

Any comments?

Never heard of this before but it's very interesting. Please post if you have any more information.

If you read the text of the Alenu prayer there are remarkable similarities to the Lord's prayer.  That is probably the prayer cited by the rabbi. It closes out all 3 daily prayer sessions.

But it also quite resembles a shorter prayer called the Kaddish which exists in several different forms and in most of the prayer sessions is said at least twice. (mourners' kaddish and half-kaddish)

Here are both prayers:

English translation of Alenyu:

It is our duty to praise the Master of all, to acclaim the
greatness of the One
who forms all creation. For God did not make us
like the nations of other
lands, and did not make us the same as other
families of the Earth. God did
not place us in the same situations as others, and
our destiny is not the same
as anyone else's.
And we bend our knees, and bow down, and give
thanks, before the Ruler,
the Ruler of Rulers, the Holy One, Blessed is God.
The One who spread out the heavens, and made the
foundations of the Earth,
and whose precious dwelling is in the heavens
above, and whose powerful
Presence is in the highest heights. Adonai is our
God, there is none else.
Our God is truth, and nothing else compares. As it
is written in Your
Torah: "And you shall know today, and take to
heart, that Adonai is the only
God, in the heavens above and on Earth below.
There is no other."
Therefore we put our hope in You, Adonai our God,
to soon see the glory of
Your strength, to remove all idols from the Earth,
and to completely cut off
all false gods; to repair the world, Your holy
empire. And for all living flesh
to call Your name, and for all the wicked of the
Earth to turn to You. May all
the world's inhabitants recognize and know that to
You every knee must
bend and every tongue must swear loyalty. Before
You, Adonai, our God,
may all bow down, and give honor to Your precious
name, and may all take
upon themselves the yoke of Your rule. And may You
reign over them soon
and forever and always. Because all rule is Yours
alone, and You will rule
in honor forever and ever.
As it is written in Your Torah:
"Adonai will reign forever and ever."
And it is said: "Adonai will be Ruler over the
whole Earth, and on that day,
God will be One, and God's name will be One.

English translation of the Mourners' Kaddish:

Sanctified and glorified be the mighty Name of God in this world created according to God's will (Ameyn).
May God's kingdom flourish through the revelation of the rule of goodness and the blossoming of salvation through the coming of the days of the Messiah (Ameyn).
May it happen within our lifetime or during the lifetime of any of the House of Israel. May it come speedily and soon; and we say, Ameyn.

MAY THE GREAT NAME (of God) BE A SOURCE OF BLESSING FOR ETERNITY AS A WITNESS!

May the Name of the Holy One be a source of blessing; and be praised, honored, extolled and glorified, adored and supremely exalted, beyond the ability of anyone in this world to offer blessings or sing hymns, praises and consolations; or to express thanksgiving; and we say, Ameyn.
May abundant and lasting peace descend upon us from Above, with life and prosperity, healing, solace, liberation, rescue and deliverance, atonement and forgiveness, redemption and salvation, for each of us, for all who do God's will and for all the House of Israel; and we say, Ameyn.
May the One who creates harmony in all the worlds, in tender love create peace for each of us and for all the House of Israel, and for all of the world, and let us say, Ameyn.

Matthew 6:9-13King James Version (KJV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.





John 8:14 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

14 Jesus answered and said to them, `And if I testify of myself -- my testimony is true, because I have known whence I came, and whither I go, and ye -- ye have not known whence I come, or whither I go.





John 8:18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

18 I am [one] who is testifying of myself, and the Father who sent me doth testify of me.'

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Apr 06, 2015 - 05:30:36
If you read the text of the Alenu prayer there are remarkable similarities to the Lord's prayer.  That is probably the prayer cited by the rabbi. It closes out all 3 daily prayer sessions.

But it also quite resembles a shorter prayer called the Kaddish which exists in several different forms and in most of the prayer sessions is said at least twice. (mourners' kaddish and half-kaddish)

Here are both prayers:

English translation of Alenyu:

It is our duty to praise the Master of all, to acclaim the
greatness of the One
who forms all creation. For God did not make us
like the nations of other
lands, and did not make us the same as other
families of the Earth. God did
not place us in the same situations as others, and
our destiny is not the same
as anyone else's.
And we bend our knees, and bow down, and give
thanks, before the Ruler,
the Ruler of Rulers, the Holy One, Blessed is God.
The One who spread out the heavens, and made the
foundations of the Earth,
and whose precious dwelling is in the heavens
above, and whose powerful
Presence is in the highest heights. Adonai is our
God, there is none else.
Our God is truth, and nothing else compares. As it
is written in Your
Torah: "And you shall know today, and take to
heart, that Adonai is the only
God, in the heavens above and on Earth below.
There is no other."
Therefore we put our hope in You, Adonai our God,
to soon see the glory of
Your strength, to remove all idols from the Earth,
and to completely cut off
all false gods; to repair the world, Your holy
empire. And for all living flesh
to call Your name, and for all the wicked of the
Earth to turn to You. May all
the world's inhabitants recognize and know that to
You every knee must
bend and every tongue must swear loyalty. Before
You, Adonai, our God,
may all bow down, and give honor to Your precious
name, and may all take
upon themselves the yoke of Your rule. And may You
reign over them soon
and forever and always. Because all rule is Yours
alone, and You will rule
in honor forever and ever.
As it is written in Your Torah:
"Adonai will reign forever and ever."
And it is said: "Adonai will be Ruler over the
whole Earth, and on that day,
God will be One, and God's name will be One.

English translation of the Mourners' Kaddish:

Sanctified and glorified be the mighty Name of God in this world created according to God's will (Ameyn).
May God's kingdom flourish through the revelation of the rule of goodness and the blossoming of salvation through the coming of the days of the Messiah (Ameyn).
May it happen within our lifetime or during the lifetime of any of the House of Israel. May it come speedily and soon; and we say, Ameyn.

MAY THE GREAT NAME (of God) BE A SOURCE OF BLESSING FOR ETERNITY AS A WITNESS!

May the Name of the Holy One be a source of blessing; and be praised, honored, extolled and glorified, adored and supremely exalted, beyond the ability of anyone in this world to offer blessings or sing hymns, praises and consolations; or to express thanksgiving; and we say, Ameyn.
May abundant and lasting peace descend upon us from Above, with life and prosperity, healing, solace, liberation, rescue and deliverance, atonement and forgiveness, redemption and salvation, for each of us, for all who do God's will and for all the House of Israel; and we say, Ameyn.
May the One who creates harmony in all the worlds, in tender love create peace for each of us and for all the House of Israel, and for all of the world, and let us say, Ameyn.

Jesus' disciples asked him to teach them to pray like John taught his disciples which was obviously before the cross in the Old Covenant / Old Testament  times.

  Hebrews 9:16–17 (NASB95)
¹⁶For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
¹⁷For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

The so-called Lord's prayer was better described the disciple's prayer, and no doubt was a condensed version of Jewish prayer(s). It contained elements of the old covenant which no longer apply in the new (forgive us as we forgive others). Remember a great deal of Jesus' teaching was to undo the damage done by the scribes and lawyers who reduced the intent of the Law of Moses from the condemnation of sin to a system of endless trips to whatever the current confessional prescribed.

The Law of Moses was meant to do three  things.
1. define sin
2. condemn all who sin
3. point to the cross as sinner's only hope

Then the higher Law of Christ / Law of God would save all who believe in the Son of man / Son of God.

Jesus introduced at least one element of the new covenant teaching God is our Heavenly Father. See for yourself the quote prayers above do not contain the word father.

Very little of the concept of God as father is mentioned in the Old Testament.

The dispute arose when Jesus taught that God is his Father.

  John 5:18 (NASB95)
¹⁸For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10:33 (NASB95)
³³The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

John 10:36–39 (NASB95)
³⁶do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
³⁷"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
³⁸but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
³⁹Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

Interesting that in another encounter between these two the Jewish people who opposed Jesus tried to bestow a collective sonship of God upon themselves...

John 8:41–44 (NASB95)
⁴¹"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
⁴²Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
⁴³"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
⁴⁴"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Point being, there was virtually no teaching in the old covenant about the Fatherhood of God. There were two or three passages that hinted or mentioned it...

Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 - 23:01:21
Very little of the concept of God as father is mentioned in the Old Testament.

The dispute arose when Jesus taught that God is his Father.....

Point being, there was virtually no teaching in the old covenant about the Fatherhood of God. There were two or three passages that hinted or mentioned it...

Isaiah 63:16  For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us.
You, O Lord, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

I would take the Pharisees who were opposed to be those from Shammai's school rather than Hillel's. At the turn of the first century, the Rosh Yeshiva (head of the school) in Beit Hillel was Rabbi Akiva. He formulated another prayer that has been used during the 10 days up to Yom Kippur ever since: Avinu Malkenu,  or Our Father Our King.  While Shammai and his followers may have objected, Hillel and his followers did not.

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Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 - 19:35:28
The so-called Lord's prayer was better described the disciple's prayer, and no doubt was a condensed version of Jewish prayer(s). It contained elements of the old covenant which no longer apply in the new (forgive us as we forgive others).

You think that forgiving one another does NOT apply in the New Covenant ?  Or that there is no linkage with God's forgiveness?

Ephesians 4:32  Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jun 15, 2015 - 05:39:36

Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 - 19:35:28
The so-called Lord's prayer was better described the disciple's prayer, and no doubt was a condensed version of Jewish prayer(s). It contained elements of the old covenant which no longer apply in the new (forgive us as we forgive others).

You think that forgiving one another does NOT apply in the New Covenant ?  Or that there is no linkage with God's forgiveness?

Ephesians 4:32  Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

In the disciple's prayer receiving forgiveness from God is dependent upon forgiving others. Is that not how you read it?

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jun 15, 2015 - 05:33:14

Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Sun Jun 14, 2015 - 23:01:21
Very little of the concept of God as father is mentioned in the Old Testament.

The dispute arose when Jesus taught that God is his Father.....

Point being, there was virtually no teaching in the old covenant about the Fatherhood of God. There were two or three passages that hinted or mentioned it...

Isaiah 63:16  For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us.
You, O Lord, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

I would take the Pharisees who were opposed to be those from Shammai's school rather than Hillel's. At the turn of the first century, the Rosh Yeshiva (head of the school) in Beit Hillel was Rabbi Akiva. He formulated another prayer that has been used during the 10 days up to Yom Kippur ever since: Avinu Malkenu,  or Our Father Our King.  While Shammai and his followers may have objected, Hillel and his followers did not.

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And I said there were a couple verses.

Question:

WHO is the Father being spoken of?

God the Father of Yeshua?

Or God the Word preincarnate?

Hint:

  Isaiah 9:6 (NASB95)
⁶For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

  Point being, until the incarnation of the Word who was and remained God (John 1:1 / John 1:14 / Philippians 2:6 in the Greek Morphe Theos Huparchon) the Word was not the Son and the first person of the Godhead (I refer to as God the Authority) was not the Father but when the incarnation of the Word took place...
Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
⁵For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


Speaking to God the Authority God the Word said:

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
⁵Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


John 1:14 (AV)
¹⁴And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Father in the Old Testament is the one who became the Son in the New Testament (the lone Creator of all things in the beginning):

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
²⁴Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


John 1:1–3 (AV)
¹In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
²The same was in the beginning with God. 
³All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.



This is how Adam and the angels are the sons of God and yet Yeshua is the only Son of the Father God. Adam and the angels are the sons of God the Word. God the Word took upon himself a second nature (that of pre-fall humanity) created by God the Authority in so doing becoming God the Father and Yeshua his only begotten Son.
So the Father Jesus was introducing to the world included the Jews as well. There are only prophetic hints and the passages that do say God is our Father in the Old Testament refer to Jesus Christ preincarnate not God the Father.

This is not polytheism by the way. This is trinitarian theology. God is one! The three who are the one God are forever blessed. Amen!

In another thread of what Messianics and Christians do differently a comment was made that essentially said Messianics focus almost strictly on the Tanakh and often refer to the brit hadasha as if to say we throw it a bone but the real meat of the Word is in the Old Testament...

No sir!

Both New and old testaments are keys to unlocking each other. Any one can read what it says but the whole point is to learn what it means. Otherwise you see but don't understand.

  Isaiah 28:9–13 (AV)
⁹Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 
¹⁰For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 
¹¹For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 
¹²To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 
¹³But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Deuteronomy 29:29 (AV)
²⁹The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 (AV)
²It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.


1 Thessalonians 5:21 (AV)
²¹Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


John 16:13 (AV)
¹³Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


John 16:13 (AV)
¹³Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Acts 17:11 (AV)
¹¹These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


2 Timothy 3:16–17 (AV)
¹⁶All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 
¹⁷That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The Law, The Prophets, The Writings include the New Testament.

Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 - 06:13:55
  Point being, until the incarnation of the Word who was and remained God (John 1:1 / John 1:14 / Philippians 2:6 in the Greek Morphe Theos Huparchon) the Word was not the Son and the first person of the Godhead (I refer to as God the Authority) was not the Father but when the incarnation of the Word took place...

Disagree.  Hebrews says "Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever." John 1 says He was in the beginning with God (the Father) and Paul wrote that all things came into being THRU Him (Jesus).

So I take it as Yeshua/Jesus was the 2nd person of the Godhead, and had his human form from before Genesis 1.1.

Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 - 06:21:48
In another thread of what Messianics and Christians do differently a comment was made that essentially said Messianics focus almost strictly on the Tanakh and often refer to the brit hadasha as if to say we throw it a bone but the real meat of the Word is in the Old Testament...

You need to get out more.  What you say may be true in some places but definately not all places.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 16, 2015 - 07:09:57

Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 - 06:13:55
  Point being, until the incarnation of the Word who was and remained God (John 1:1 / John 1:14 / Philippians 2:6 in the Greek Morphe Theos Huparchon) the Word was not the Son and the first person of the Godhead (I refer to as God the Authority) was not the Father but when the incarnation of the Word took place...

Disagree.  Hebrews says "Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever." John 1 says He was in the beginning with God (the Father) and Paul wrote that all things came into being THRU Him (Jesus).

So I take it as Yeshua/Jesus was the 2nd person of the Godhead, and had his human form from before Genesis 1.1.

So there is no difference in Jesus Christ before and after the cross?

If he was human before Genesis 1 how did Mary carry him in her womb?

The Bible says Jesus grew...

In other words you can carry a point made about his character (the same yesterday today and forever) to an absurd application or misapplication.

I only quoted you scripture. In the time of the writing of the Psalm which the book of Hebrews quoted I WILL BE a father to him he SHALL BE a son to me THIS DAY I have begotten thee.

Jesus is the on through whom the Godhead created all things. But he did all the creating himself.

Donald Trump Sr. is the one through whom the Trump family fortune was amassed. That does not negate the fact that he alone amassed it.

  Colossians 1:16 (AV)
¹⁶For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The "thru him" argument is an old Jehovah's Witness argument used to try to undeify Jesus as a created being.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 16, 2015 - 07:12:00

Quote from: JohnDB70X7 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 - 06:21:48
In another thread of what Messianics and Christians do differently a comment was made that essentially said Messianics focus almost strictly on the Tanakh and often refer to the brit hadasha as if to say we throw it a bone but the real meat of the Word is in the Old Testament...

You need to get out more.  What you say may be true in some places but definately not all places.

Please keep your comments about me to yourself. Thank you.

And I was responding to a post here. Universal application was your doing.

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jun 15, 2015 - 05:33:14
At the turn of the first century, the Rosh Yeshiva (head of the school) in Beit Hillel was Rabbi Akiva...

The same one who willfully ostracized Christianity from Judaism to the point that it stopped being considered a Jewish religion?

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.