Christian Forums

via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - should we accept Tradition and early Church Fathers or much latter day reformers - wincam

Seems to be a standoff wincam, the Catholics that stand by church tradition and the protestants that rely on scripture to support their views.


Catholics love to use the "protestant" label whenever it suits them to use it as a tool to support the nature of those that turned away from the church, while protestants themselves believe the moniker supports their long awaited freedom from the oppression of the church which many believed to be in error. 


Google was non existent back then, to use it now to support your claims is merely adding more slant to the view you already possess.

if it isnt in Gods word or is the opposite of what Gods word says, then then we can discount it. Men are fallible, God isnt.

You didn't give an exact article... you just said "see google", so your information cannot be sound. Any article? They're are numerous articles.

However, of the one article I did read, that was written to support the idea, was assumptions. No facts, nothing proven...  no Scripture back up for the reasoning.

The one source used in that article was another writing by a world renowned writer...  Which means nothing... 

Scripture is the foundation for all things leading to Christ. 

Catholics would do better to stop proclaiming these dogmas to the rest of us as "Facts" and be honest.. saying..."This is what we believe"  rather than insisting and continuing to proclaim these dogmas as Facts that we call need to just believe.

There is nothing wrong with you just saying its what you believe, without trying to make the rest of us choke it down.  We don't believe it...  that should be good enough for you.   

Quote from: kensington on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 01:42:52
You didn't give an exact article... you just said "see google", so your information cannot be sound. Any article? They're are numerous articles.

However, of the one article I did read, that was written to support the idea, was assumptions. No facts, nothing proven...  no Scripture back up for the reasoning.

The one source used in that article was another writing by a world renowned writer...  Which means nothing... 

Scripture is the foundation for all things leading to Christ. 

Catholics would do better to stop proclaiming these dogmas to the rest of us as "Facts" and be honest.. saying..."This is what we believe"  rather than insisting and continuing to proclaim these dogmas as Facts that we call need to just believe.

There is nothing wrong with you just saying its what you believe, without trying to make the rest of us choke it down.  We don't believe it...  that should be good enough for you.

what is being queried is why some do not believe it when the early Christians did and still do - are we to presume that the Church did in fact fail and that some very much later date reformer reformed it and that Christ's prayer went and goes unanswered - no way and not at all imho -   

Quote from: Alan on Sat Sep 19, 2015 - 16:41:15
Seems to be a standoff wincam, the Catholics that stand by church tradition and the protestants that rely on scripture to support their views.


Catholics love to use the "protestant" label whenever it suits them to use it as a tool to support the nature of those that turned away from the church, while protestants themselves believe the moniker supports their long awaited freedom from the oppression of the church which many believed to be in error. 


Google was non existent back then, to use it now to support your claims is merely adding more slant to the view you already possess.

neither was the reformation and the reformers - better the early Christians and church fathers and tradition than know better very much latter day self opiniated reformers ad infinitum and ad absurdum - wincam

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 00:33:41
if it isnt in Gods word or is the opposite of what Gods word says, then then we can discount it. Men are fallible, God isnt.

exactly especially much later day self opiniated men posing as reformers stating the Church has failed in spite of Christ's prayer - be reformed and come home now - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 03:10:03

Quote from: kensington on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 01:42:52
You didn't give an exact article... you just said "see google", so your information cannot be sound. Any article? They're are numerous articles.

However, of the one article I did read, that was written to support the idea, was assumptions. No facts, nothing proven...  no Scripture back up for the reasoning.

The one source used in that article was another writing by a world renowned writer...  Which means nothing... 

Scripture is the foundation for all things leading to Christ. 

Catholics would do better to stop proclaiming these dogmas to the rest of us as "Facts" and be honest.. saying..."This is what we believe"  rather than insisting and continuing to proclaim these dogmas as Facts that we call need to just believe.

There is nothing wrong with you just saying its what you believe, without trying to make the rest of us choke it down.  We don't believe it...  that should be good enough for you.

what is being queried is why some do not believe it when the early Christians did and still do - are we to presume that the Church did in fact fail and that some very much later date reformer reformed it and that Christ's prayer went and goes unanswered - no way and not at all imho -

Of course the early church failed, even when Paul was alive churches were going off course(for example some going back into works and telling others that they should get circumcised) hence his need to write them and correct them. Men are fallible which is why we need Gods word as our guidance and plumb line.

Wasnt it St Augustine who declared that God goes out of the room when we have sex? Yep VERY fallible. 

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 03:20:10

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 00:33:41
if it isnt in Gods word or is the opposite of what Gods word says, then then we can discount it. Men are fallible, God isnt.

exactly especially much later day self opiniated men posing as reformers stating the Church has failed in spite of Christ's prayer - be reformed and come home now - wincam

Dont you believe that Heaven is our home?. Its what God says. 
I thank God for the reformers who got my country out of the dark spiritually dead times of the Roman Catholic church. 

I don't get why this matters SO much to you, Wincam?

Your focus should not be on Mary's sex life, but on Jesus Christ and what HE did to set mankind free from sin and death!

it is neither reasonable, or sensible or logical or spiritual to assume that Jesus did not have recourse to the toilet as it is not in the bible - wincam

what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam

I can't thank Mary for Jesus, because I can't talk to her, she is in Heaven with God.  When I see God face to face, I am sure I will enjoy many hours of conversation with Mary, however, as I have often wondered what it was like to raise a perfect child and how she kept sibling rivalry and competition from her family; as her other kids were fully human, and SO very much NOT perfect!

I refuse to give her the glory due to God, however.

I am home.  Right in the arms of God where I belong.

Wincam, I can't help but notice you didn't answer my question:

Why does this matter SO much to you, Wincam?

Your focus should not be on Mary's sex life, but on Jesus Christ and what HE did to set mankind free from sin and death!

of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:30:19
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam

wincam the way that you constantly tell others to come home now is offensive, especially as God clearly says that Heaven is our home, or maybe you know better than He does? 

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam

Why would we do that when she is dead and cant hear us?

Many are blessed, in fact we are all blessed if we Know Jesus.

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam

It's a straight forward thanking and praising God for Jesus, it was not Mary's doing, she did not conceive the child, she does deserve to be honoured for her obedience to the Lord but that's about it -  come out of your religious dwelling now - Al

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:30:19
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother -

ummm...what?!

This is rambling gibberish...

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam

you don't know that others haven't 'thanked' God for Mary. Being thankful for Mary does not include praying to her, having a statue of her, singing songs to her etc.  Do you think Mary is the only woman to be called 'blessed'?

'give over and come home now'?  means what to you?  If it's about coming back to the RCC,  it'll never happen for me.  The Rcc is not my home and it never was.  I doubt I could ever even step into a CC again.  I'm sure I couldn't sit thru a Mass again.  I can't even watch it fully on tv. 

Mary could not have prevented her grown children from having thoughts of their own about Jesus and his first miracles.  She was not omnipotent.  They... including she were never told he would be doing miracles.  Healing the sick, giving sight, raisling the dead.  The Angel never told her when he visited her.  They didn't even know he would teach in the temple at age 12. They had to go looking for Him.

Lets not forget... they were all Jews... who were expecting the Messiah to come victorious ready for battle, coming as a King who would rule with an iron hand.  They were not expecting the neighbors to come mocking them because Jesus was healing people.

It makes perfect sense that they would go to get him, and question His actions.  They had yet to see who He really was yet. 

You need to wake up.  I'm not giving over to something taught that is a fairy tale...  Yes the some of your church fathers teach it... and they had the ignorant, down trodden and controlled believing it.  But, I am not one of them. We can study and read for ourselves, even the Greek and Hebrew, and we don't have to just believe what we are told to by some hierarchy leadership.  God is so good!

Quote from: wincam on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:30:19
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam

ah... now Mary is the 'thought police'!  Could be she kept them in chains for weeks on end - that could be why they aren't mentioned as much as Jesus... because of that they probably didn't want to 'house' Mary...(you could write a whole new book based on this lie).

They could have been at the site of His death.  we aren't told things that we don't need to know - or that have nothing to do with our salvation.  That's just something busybodies concern themselves with (along with Mary's sex life). 

I'm sorry you don't understand and accept God's word as the truth.

An excellent article which says what we keep on saying.

http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm

A summary

To sum it up: the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a doctrine that has no foundation in the Word of God. Mary was indeed virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but she did not stay a virgin perpetually. She and Joseph got married and after the birth of Jesus, Joseph "knew her" and she bore to him kids. Is there anything bad in this? NO. This is all natural. God designed sex and having kids for marriage. This is His plan. In contrast, a perpetually virgin, yet married to a man, Mary would be completely unnatural. Furthermore we have shown that, despite tradition being very loud supporting the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, this is not a doctrine the Word of God knows about. A perpetually virgin Mary is not the Mary of the New Testament. Instead the Mary of the New Testament, is a very godly woman that gave birth (the only virgin birth) to our Lord Jesus Christ and subsequently made a family with Joseph, her husband and a very godly man too.

Quote from: MeMyself on Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 09:18:57
I don't get why this matters SO much to you, Wincam?

Your focus should not be on Mary's sex life, but on Jesus Christ and what HE did to set mankind free from sin and death!

+1

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 03:46:43
An excellent article which says what we keep on saying.

http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm

A summary

To sum it up: the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a doctrine that has no foundation in the Word of God. Mary was indeed virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but she did not stay a virgin perpetually. She and Joseph got married and after the birth of Jesus, Joseph "knew her" and she bore to him kids. Is there anything bad in this? NO. This is all natural. God designed sex and having kids for marriage. This is His plan. In contrast, a perpetually virgin, yet married to a man, Mary would be completely unnatural. Furthermore we have shown that, despite tradition being very loud supporting the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, this is not a doctrine the Word of God knows about. A perpetually virgin Mary is not the Mary of the New Testament. Instead the Mary of the New Testament, is a very godly woman that gave birth (the only virgin birth) to our Lord Jesus Christ and subsequently made a family with Joseph, her husband and a very godly man too.

you are accepting this because of your acceptance of sola scripture and ignoring tradition and the early church fathers who knew better than you - there were many other things that are not written in the Bible but accepted by the early Christians but not by the johnny come lately, know all and know better so called reformers - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 07:05:12

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 03:46:43
An excellent article which says what we keep on saying.

http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm

A summary

To sum it up: the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a doctrine that has no foundation in the Word of God. Mary was indeed virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but she did not stay a virgin perpetually. She and Joseph got married and after the birth of Jesus, Joseph "knew her" and she bore to him kids. Is there anything bad in this? NO. This is all natural. God designed sex and having kids for marriage. This is His plan. In contrast, a perpetually virgin, yet married to a man, Mary would be completely unnatural. Furthermore we have shown that, despite tradition being very loud supporting the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, this is not a doctrine the Word of God knows about. A perpetually virgin Mary is not the Mary of the New Testament. Instead the Mary of the New Testament, is a very godly woman that gave birth (the only virgin birth) to our Lord Jesus Christ and subsequently made a family with Joseph, her husband and a very godly man too.

you are accepting this because of your acceptance of sola scripture and ignoring tradition and the early church fathers who knew better than you - there were many other things that are not written in the Bible but accepted by the early Christians but not by the johnny come lately, know all and know better so called reformers - wincam

again, I will ask it:

WHY does it matter?!

In the grand scope of eternity, what does it matter what Mary's sex life looked like?

What is changed if she had sex with her husband?  Is our salvation lost? No? Then it.doesnt.matter!

of course it matters that we love what God loves and calls blessed and hate what God hates - so I am sure Jesus loved His mother and His mother loved Him - wincam

Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.

Quote from: Alan on Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.

so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:43:54

Quote from: Alan on Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.

so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam

Reread the highlighted portion of my quote please.

Quote from: wincam on Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:43:54

Quote from: Alan on Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.

so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam

The Bible doesnt tell us to exalt her only Jesus. We are all blessed if we know Him, just as she was. Many were used in many amazing ways by God in the Bible, yet we dont exact them. Jesus never exalted her above the fact that she gave birth to Him. 

Quote from: wincam on Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:43:54

Quote from: Alan on Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.

so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam

Why don't we exalt the soldier that caused Jesus to marvel at His faith?

simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam

If you read the Bible... you see ... it's not what she did that caused her to be called Blessed.  She clearly claimed it was what God did.

She is blessed because God chose her to bring forth His only begotten son.  She didn't do anything on her own to be called blessed for. Or to cause worship toward her. 

Again, if you read the Bible, you see that Jesus loved her, he did not magnify her or lift her up, or pray to her like He did His Father.  He taught others to pray to the Father, in the garden, he cried out to the Father, on the cross, He cried out to His Father...  after the resurrection, He went to the Father, He is seated with the Father.

Mary is not included in any of that.  He left her here with the other believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit, cared for by the other believers as the church should. Not worshipped or lifted up.  But, cared for.

of course what you mean Jesus did allow His holy one [mother] to see corruption - btw, His mother was Holy because of Him and so would you be - wincam