Christian Forums

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:16:41

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:08:49

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:06:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:59:00

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:56:04
Yes it can for infants.

For adults faith is required but for children the faith of their parents is enough. Moreover they are baptised into a believing community. It is then the responsibility, primarily of the parents (and god-parents), but also of the community to bring the child to faith.

And, what if they never come to faith, even when lead, even when taught, prayed for and agonized over? What if they just say, "Nope. Not for me," and walk away.

Are you saying that because their parents had their hair get wet and a priest spoke specific words over them, they are born again, though they live a life without faith as adults?

Salvation is not a one off, forever event. OSAS is a false doctrine.

When a child is baptised they receive and become all that I said. But when they die they will be judged on the state of their soul at the the time of death.

If they commit mortal sin, turn away from Christ, then they will be judged on that.

Ah, gotcha, so they aren't really born again at all...or maybe its that they are born again and die and then have to be born again and again and again...

yeah. Makes sense. 

They are born again (more properly born from above). In a sense they do die if they commit mortal sin - hence the term mortal.

They die in the sense that they lose the life of Christ in their souls. But they can regain that in the Sacrtament of Recoinciliation (Confession/Penance).

As the Catechism puts it:
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

Where is that is Gods word?

Quote from: wincam on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 14:56:19
again - the big mistake and error is that Catholics are infants and not little children who simply simply believe, as is required, and born again at Confirmation - so we see Protestantism is full of errors by adults, posing as true Christians falsely claiming inspiration via the Holy Spirit - wincam

  The RC church is the one that is full of unbiblical errors, one of them being the sprinkling of babies.

Quoteagain - the big mistake and error is that Catholics are infants and not little children who simply simply believe, as is required, and born again at Confirmation - so we see Protestantism is full of errors by adults, posing as true Christians falsely claiming inspiration via the Holy Spirit - wincam

I believe these are reportable comments.  Isn't it odd how Catholics accuse us, slander us, and lie about us... Yet, claim they are the Christians.  It's almost humorous... except it isn't.

I guess when your debate runs amuck and you run out of valid argument and have no proof of your claims... you turn to this.  Sadly. Supposedly brothers in Christ, trying to stone us for Loving God and believing His word.

Cain killed Able... thus the Catholics intend to walk the same path.

Yep
its just the Same-0 --- Same-0
The Child of God refering posters to what God has said thru the Scriptures
Moses and the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs and the Apostles

the other child to what Man has said
My church teaches this
Pastor so and so / Preacher this and Preacher that
Father so and so says
 

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:24:58

Quoteagain - the big mistake and error is that Catholics are infants and not little children who simply simply believe, as is required, and born again at Confirmation - so we see Protestantism is full of errors by adults, posing as true Christians falsely claiming inspiration via the Holy Spirit - wincam

I believe these are reportable comments.  Isn't it odd how Catholics accuse us, slander us, and lie about us... Yet, claim they are the Christians.  It's almost humorous... except it isn't.

I guess when your debate runs amuck and you run out of valid argument and have no proof of your claims... you turn to this.  Sadly. Supposedly brothers in Christ, trying to stone us for Loving God and believing His word.

Cain killed Able... thus the Catholics intend to walk the same path.

you glibly choose to forget that it is the Protestants that are the protesters and have always been so - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:52:32

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:24:58

I guess when your debate runs amuck and you run out of valid argument and have no proof of your claims... you turn to this.  Sadly. Supposedly brothers in Christ, trying to stone us for Loving God and believing His word.

Cain killed Able... thus the Catholics intend to walk the same path.

Quote from: wincam on Today at 02:52:32 PM
you glibly choose to forget that it is the Protestants that are the protesters and have always been so - wincam

Yep, Able was the Protester or Protestant in their day

And Adam knew Eve his wife;
and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said,
I have gotten a man from the LORD.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel.
And Abel was a keeper of sheep,
but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass,
that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.
And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain,
Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother:
hey Brother; we need to do it Gods way
and it came to pass, when they were in the field,
that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


hasn't changed in 6,000 years

Did I not say there was much confusion what and how one is born again. Can you go to your prayer closet and privately commune with Christ. This is a spiritual relationship. I will say again this is a spiritual relationship which Jesus intented us to have by giving the Holy Spirit in the first place.

Jesus often left the twelve to go into a private place to pray to the Father. How did he know he was speaking to the Father? Did anyone else hear him speaking to the Father? Jesus and the Father were one just as we are one with Jesus. When you go to your prayer place and simply believe as a child that Jesus and you are together and that you  can talk to Him as one who is closer than a brother, Then and only then you start to understand being born again of the spirit. But if you have unbelief then you cannot be born again.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 16:15:31
Did I not say there was much confusion what and how one is born again. Can you go to your prayer closet and privately commune with Christ. This is a spiritual relationship. I will say again this is a spiritual relationship which Jesus intented us to have by giving the Holy Spirit in the first place.

Jesus often left the twelve to go into a private place to pray to the Father. How did he know he was speaking to the Father? Did anyone else hear him speaking to the Father? Jesus and the Father were one just as we are one with Jesus. When you go to your prayer place and simply believe as a child that Jesus and you are together and that you  can talk to Him as one who is closer than a brother, Then and only then you start to understand being born again of the spirit. But if you have unbelief then you cannot be born again.

He did not give us the Holy Spirit in the first place - you are making this up as you go along[Jn.14:17] - wincam

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 16:02:32

Quote from: wincam on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:52:32

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:24:58

I guess when your debate runs amuck and you run out of valid argument and have no proof of your claims... you turn to this.  Sadly. Supposedly brothers in Christ, trying to stone us for Loving God and believing His word.

Cain killed Able... thus the Catholics intend to walk the same path.

Quote from: wincam on Today at 02:52:32 PM
you glibly choose to forget that it is the Protestants that are the protesters and have always been so - wincam

Yep, Able was the Protester or Protestant in their day

And Adam knew Eve his wife;
and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said,
I have gotten a man from the LORD.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel.
And Abel was a keeper of sheep,
but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass,
that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.
And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain,
Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother:
hey Brother; we need to do it Gods way
and it came to pass, when they were in the field,
that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


hasn't changed in 6,000 years

it seems to me that Cain was the first protester protesting that Abel had it right and was approved of by God - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 17:49:44

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 16:02:32

Quote from: wincam on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:52:32

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:24:58

I guess when your debate runs amuck and you run out of valid argument and have no proof of your claims... you turn to this.  Sadly. Supposedly brothers in Christ, trying to stone us for Loving God and believing His word.

Cain killed Able... thus the Catholics intend to walk the same path.

Quote from: wincam on Today at 02:52:32 PM
you glibly choose to forget that it is the Protestants that are the protesters and have always been so - wincam

Yep, Able was the Protester or Protestant in their day

And Adam knew Eve his wife;
and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said,
I have gotten a man from the LORD.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel.
And Abel was a keeper of sheep,
but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass,
that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.
And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.
And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain,
Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother:
hey Brother; we need to do it Gods way
and it came to pass, when they were in the field,
that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


hasn't changed in 6,000 years

it seems to me that Cain was the first protester protesting that Abel had it right and was approved of by God - wincam

Cue next line:
I know you are, but what am I?

I wouldn't consider Abel and Cain as applicable parables of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. Rather, it's simply a brother murdering a brother for staying faithful to God, something that has repeated itself in Israel and the Church all throughout history, including among Catholics and Protestants.

Born again isn't really that difficult. The word literally means born from above in the Greek, and it happens when we call on the name of the Lord. Peter said baptism does save us, but the baptism that's an appeal to God for a good conscience. It made it clear it wasn't the water that did so, so the idea of children being born again by baptism is erred, and the RCC are certainly not the only one guilty of it (looking at you UPCI). People only considers such when they grossly misunderstand what eternal life actually is, you can say it's a relationship all you want but it's easy to say even when your actions shows otherwise.

QuoteI wouldn't consider Abel and Cain as applicable parables of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. Rather, it's simply a brother murdering a brother for staying faithful to God, something that has repeated itself in Israel and the Church all throughout history, including among Catholics and Protestants

If you read back... I didn't use it that way.  I used it to point to "Brother hating/Killing brother", as in the Catholics hating us, . Telling us we are not the church. Implying we cannot be saved if we are not Catholic, accusing us of all manner of things we do not do or believe.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 20:23:15

QuoteI wouldn't consider Abel and Cain as applicable parables of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. Rather, it's simply a brother murdering a brother for staying faithful to God, something that has repeated itself in Israel and the Church all throughout history, including among Catholics and Protestants

If you read back... I didn't use it that way.  I used it to point to "Brother hating/Killing brother", as in the Catholics hating us, . Telling us we are not the church. Implying we cannot be saved if we are not Catholic, accusing us of all manner of things we do not do or believe.

But to be fair to them, if their doctrine was correct (it isn't but hypothetically) then we wouldn't be. According to Catholic theology, everyone outside the Church is basically damned, and especially the sects that broke off of it. It's simply being a faithful Catholic, albeit erred.

Oh, I am sure they sincerely believe it.  But, they are sincerely wrong.

Quote from: RB on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 14:26:38

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 09:42:48This Thread sounds just like Nicodemus

You added not one thing to show how one is born again, but actually made the water a little more muddy than they were and still are. The new birth is totally of God, apart from any work of righteousness by the will of the flesh, or the will of man~by Jesus making that statement in John 1:13, eliminating both messenger, and the hearer of the word of God! Can I have a little fun, yes I can......since man is dead in trespasses and sins, and at enmity (not just an enemy, but much worse....AT enmity!) against God, the birth of the Spirit is totally a work performed by God~therefore, man can dead sleep; plowing a field; drinking himself to a state of drunkenness; committing some gross sin(s); making love to her/his spouse; any other thing that may come into your mind, man could be doing, when the Spirit of God purpose to regenerate one of the elect. God alone is the only active person performing this spiritual birth. Truly, think about it~what part did any one person here have to do with their first birth? Not one thing. The new birth is no different. Truly, even after one is born of God, it takes TIME for them to begin to hear with understanding and to see what God expect for them to do. Yes, there is a period of TIME between regeneration and conversion to the truth, without question it is. How do I know this, by the scriptures of truth~the apostles were a perfect example of what I'm saying. For some it may be very short time, for others, longer. You will not find what I'm saying in the SDA movement, you must search the scriptures to see and understand what I'm saying. Selah!

Are there no takers?  Mr. Babbler, this was for you.

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 14:52:55

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:46:53

The scriptures say we are born again of water on the Spirit (Jn 3:5, Ti 3:5)

By baptism:
Our sins are forgiven
We are reborn as children of God
We become members of the Church (the Body of Christ)
We enter into the New Covenant

In other words - saved.

As Peter says "Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)

1 Peter 3:21
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few,
that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Posters;
Noah, his wife, 3 sons and their wives were not saved by the Water,
in fact they didn't even get wet, the water drowned, destroyed the Antediluvian world,
not saved it

It Was --- BY FAITH --- Noah preached 120 years
It Was --- BY FAITH -- Noah built the Ark
It Was ----BY FAITH -- Noah and his Family got into the Ark

as Hebrews says
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.
.....

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,
moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

BY FAITH,
Noah believed God, Obeyed, and built that ark that saved his Family

not some Hokeus-Pokeus chant, and the sprinkling of some water
and not by some Carnal Ordnance imposed on them because of their unbelief


Which was a figure for the time then present,
in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,
that could not make him that did the service perfect,
as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings,
and carnal ordinances,
imposed on them until the time of reformation.

____________________________________________ _____________________________

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
and to present you faultless
before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour,
be glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever.
Amen.

Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit says "eight souls were saved by water"


Jsta Babbler says they "were not saved by the water"


Who is right - Jsta Babbler or the scriptures?

 

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:58:02
So then, a baby who is baptized by a priest at his parents request, who grows up to be a murderer, who rejects anything to do with God, was still born again?

Yes.

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:58:02
How does the Word of God back that up?

The word of God teaches us that we need to be born again in baptism (Jn 3:3 & 5)
The word of God teaches us that baptism saves us. (1Pet 3:21)
The word of God teaches us that some sins are deadly to our souls.(1Kn 5:16)
The word of God teaches us that we must continue to remain in Christ or perish. (Jn 15:6)

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:58:02
This is why infant baptism is not a solid doctrine.  Because they can grow up with no real knowledge of the Lord and end up in Hell.

Why does that make it not a solid doctrine.?

Quote from: kensington on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:58:02
Baptism is reserved for those who truly believe and desire to walk uprightly with the Lord.

For adults faith and a desire to walk with Christ is required. But scripture teaches us that God acts upon the faith of others.

Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven (Mt 19:14)

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (Jn 3:5)

Jesus wants children to come to him.
Jesus wants children to have that which is necessary to enter the kingdom  of heaven.

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 15:22:10

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:16:41

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:08:49

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 13:06:48

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:59:00

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:56:04
Yes it can for infants.

For adults faith is required but for children the faith of their parents is enough. Moreover they are baptised into a believing community. It is then the responsibility, primarily of the parents (and god-parents), but also of the community to bring the child to faith.

And, what if they never come to faith, even when lead, even when taught, prayed for and agonized over? What if they just say, "Nope. Not for me," and walk away.

Are you saying that because their parents had their hair get wet and a priest spoke specific words over them, they are born again, though they live a life without faith as adults?

Salvation is not a one off, forever event. OSAS is a false doctrine.

When a child is baptised they receive and become all that I said. But when they die they will be judged on the state of their soul at the the time of death.

If they commit mortal sin, turn away from Christ, then they will be judged on that.

Ah, gotcha, so they aren't really born again at all...or maybe its that they are born again and die and then have to be born again and again and again...

yeah. Makes sense. 

They are born again (more properly born from above). In a sense they do die if they commit mortal sin - hence the term mortal.

They die in the sense that they lose the life of Christ in their souls. But they can regain that in the Sacrtament of Recoinciliation (Confession/Penance).

As the Catechism puts it:
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

Where is that is Gods word?

"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." (1Jn 5:16-17)

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. (Ez 18:21-22)

kensington and LexKnight,

Quote
as in the Catholics hating us, . Telling us we are not the church. Implying we cannot be saved if we are not Catholic,

I wish you were more charitable towards our Catholic friends.   Hate is a strong word, and disagreement does not necessarily mean hate.  If we are Christians, it should take a lot to hate someone.

As for you not being in the church, please note that we look at the word "church" differently than you do.  Ours is based on scripture, yours is the idea that the church is the equal to those who are saved.  The Bible describes the church as the entity where you go to find the truth, it has people in roles, it makes judgments. Yours is a  collection of people that do not necessarily meet but believe the same thing.

Although I am not  RCC,  I do know LexKnight that since Vatican 2 the Catholics believe those outside the RCC can be saved.   I, an Orthodox Christian, also believe that those outside the church can be saved.  Hopefully, you can see why- we define the church in a different way than you do.

LexKnight and kensington: note that winsome has used scripture to back up his points.  You may not agree but he should get points for doing so.

Quote from: trifecta on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 06:43:54
kensington and LexKnight,

Quote
as in the Catholics hating us, . Telling us we are not the church. Implying we cannot be saved if we are not Catholic,

I wish you were more charitable towards our Catholic friends.   Hate is a strong word, and disagreement does not necessarily mean hate.  If we are Christians, it should take a lot to hate someone.

As for you not being in the church, please note that we look at the word "church" differently than you do.  Ours is based on scripture, yours is the idea that the church is the equal to those who are saved.  The Bible describes the church as the entity where you go to find the truth, it has people in roles, it makes judgments. Yours is a  collection of people that do not necessarily meet but believe the same thing.

Although I am not  RCC,  I do know LexKnight that since Vatican 2 the Catholics believe those outside the RCC can be saved.   I, an Orthodox Christian, also believe that those outside the church can be saved.  Hopefully, you can see why- we define the church in a different way than you do.

LexKnight and kensington: note that winsome has used scripture to back up his points.  You may not agree but he should get points for doing so.

And you sir respectfully know nothing about who and what the church is. From Pentecost the  church was comprised of all who believed and is no less to today. You and your Catholic friends live in an institutionalized authoritarian order that parades itself in being religious but from the beginning it was not that way. The church is born from above and is not of this world as to put any faith in men But in Christ

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 05:58:55The word of God teaches us that we need to be born again in baptism (Jn 3:3 & 5)
The word of God teaches us that baptism saves us. (1Pet 3:21) The word of God teaches us that some sins are deadly to our souls.(1Kn 5:16) The word of God teaches us that we must continue to remain in Christ or perish. (Jn 15:6)

Winsome, I'll debate you concerning these four points, if you care to~but you first must correct this one:

QuoteThe word of God teaches us that some sins are deadly to our souls.(1Kn 5:16)

Unless you believe that ruling is a deadly sins to our souls?

Quote1st Kings 5:16~"Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which were over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work."

Can I start a thread in the Catholic forum on John 3:5? Would you come and debate it with me?

Quote from: RB on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 07:34:46

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 05:58:55The word of God teaches us that we need to be born again in baptism (Jn 3:3 & 5)
The word of God teaches us that baptism saves us. (1Pet 3:21) The word of God teaches us that some sins are deadly to our souls.(1Kn 5:16) The word of God teaches us that we must continue to remain in Christ or perish. (Jn 15:6)

Winsome, I'll debate you concerning these four points, if you care to~but you first must correct this one:

QuoteThe word of God teaches us that some sins are deadly to our souls.(1Kn 5:16)

Unless you believe that ruling is a deadly sins to our souls?

Quote1st Kings 5:16~"Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which were over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work."

Can I start a thread in the Catholic forum on John 3:5? Would you come and debate it with me?

Sorry - the reference should be 1Jn 5:16. I try to check my posts but typos creep in.

Here are two quotes I posted for chosenone
"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." (1Jn 5:16-17)

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. (Ez 18:21-22)

Yes, I will contribute to a thread on John 3:5 - but isn't that what we are doing now?

Quote from: trifecta on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 06:43:54
Although I am not  RCC,  I do know LexKnight that since Vatican 2 the Catholics believe those outside the RCC can be saved.   I, an Orthodox Christian, also believe that those outside the church can be saved.  Hopefully, you can see why- we define the church in a different way than you do.

LexKnight and kensington: note that winsome has used scripture to back up his points.  You may not agree but he should get points for doing so.

And here we have an issue.
Vatican 2 was not a dogmatic council, or at least there is an ongoing dispute within the RCC what exactly it was.
The dogma "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" although further defined with the doctrine of "Inconvincible Ignorance", still stands.

But Vatican 2 has done more that just redefined dogma, she also (IMO) went completely overboard by including Muslims into the Plan of Salvation.
The idea is that some remnant of truth resides in those religions which are not Roman Catholic, but let's make no mistake, Vatican 2 still upholds that the RCC is the only true and valid church.

Now to be totally fair to the RCC, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is not an unknown concept even to protestants.
There are many denominations who at least align to part of this doctrine, and on a broader scale all of us declare that one needs to be in the church to be a disciple of Christ.
The church meaning all believers in this case.

But our doctrinal dispute with the RCC is not rooted here.
Our dispute is rooted in the doctrine of justification, and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus simply is the result of the interpretation of this doctrine by the RCC.

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 07:56:26Yes, I will contribute to a thread on John 3:5 - but isn't that what we are doing now?

I did not want to take this thread in another direction~and I did not really wanted to contribute to this thread no more than I needed to do, since the gentleman that started this one, most of the time, well all of time, makes little sense.

There is only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the HS. Every other sin can be forgiven by going to God and repenting.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:17:16
There is only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the HS. Every other sin can be forgiven by going to God and repenting.

Whom are you addressing and what point were you making/replying to by this comment?

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:20:00

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:17:16
There is only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the HS. Every other sin can be forgiven by going to God and repenting.

Whom are you addressing and what point were you making/replying to by this comment?

Those who are talking about so called mortal sins.

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

Quote from: trifecta on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 06:43:54
Although I am not  RCC,  I do know LexKnight that since Vatican 2 the Catholics believe those outside the RCC can be saved.   I, an Orthodox Christian, also believe that those outside the church can be saved.  Hopefully, you can see why- we define the church in a different way than you do.

LexKnight and kensington: note that winsome has used scripture to back up his points.  You may not agree but he should get points for doing so.

And here we have an issue.
Vatican 2 was not a dogmatic council, or at least there is an ongoing dispute within the RCC what exactly it was.
The dogma "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" although further defined with the doctrine of "Inconvincible Ignorance", still stands.

But Vatican 2 has done more that just redefined dogma, she also (IMO) went completely overboard by including Muslims into the Plan of Salvation.
The idea is that some remnant of truth resides in those religions which are not Roman Catholic, but let's make no mistake, Vatican 2 still upholds that the RCC is the only true and valid church.

Now to be totally fair to the RCC, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is not an unknown concept even to protestants.
There are many denominations who at least align to part of this doctrine, and on a broader scale all of us declare that one needs to be in the church to be a disciple of Christ.
The church meaning all believers in this case.

Both you and trifecta are incorrect to imply that the Catholic Church changed it's stance on "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" at Vatican 2

There was an issue in the 1940s when a Fr. Feeney took this phrase literally as you could not be saved unless you were a member of the Catholic Church. In 1949 the Holy Office issued a letter condemning this proposition.

It also pointed out that in the Encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi by Pope Pius XII in 1943 also declares that those outside the Church can be saved, as also did the Council of Trent.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:30:38

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:20:00

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:17:16
There is only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the HS. Every other sin can be forgiven by going to God and repenting.

Whom are you addressing and what point were you making/replying to by this comment?

Those who are talking about so called mortal sins.

I was not referring to unforgivable sins. Mortal sins are forgiveable but as you say one must repent of them. Until then you are seperated from Christ.

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

Quote from: trifecta on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 06:43:54
kensington and LexKnight,

Quote
as in the Catholics hating us, . Telling us we are not the church. Implying we cannot be saved if we are not Catholic,

I wish you were more charitable towards our Catholic friends.   Hate is a strong word, and disagreement does not necessarily mean hate.  If we are Christians, it should take a lot to hate someone.

As for you not being in the church, please note that we look at the word "church" differently than you do.  Ours is based on scripture, yours is the idea that the church is the equal to those who are saved.  The Bible describes the church as the entity where you go to find the truth, it has people in roles, it makes judgments. Yours is a  collection of people that do not necessarily meet but believe the same thing.

Although I am not  RCC,  I do know LexKnight that since Vatican 2 the Catholics believe those outside the RCC can be saved.   I, an Orthodox Christian, also believe that those outside the church can be saved.  Hopefully, you can see why- we define the church in a different way than you do.

LexKnight and kensington: note that winsome has used scripture to back up his points.  You may not agree but he should get points for doing so.

But Trifecta, wouldn't that be considered a compromise to Catholic theology? I in no way would say that those who outright reject the Truth of the Lord will have a place in His Kingdom, and to Roman Catholics all of their theology, Council of Trent, traditions, etc., all of it is the Truth of the Lord, and Protestants and non-Catholics (except some Orthodoxes) surely do reject it. So Catholics believing those who intentionally reject membership of the Catholic Church are still brethren... doesn't make sense to me. It feels like a compromise, a diplomatic attempt. And if their theology was truly correct, then no non-Catholic by choice would surely find themselves in heaven, it's common sense.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.
For Roman Catholics it is a combination of faith PLUS works.

In the protestant view grace is imputed. In the Roman Catholic view it is infused.
For Catholics grace is a cumulative, Protestants reject this notion.
On top of all that we of course have the issue of merits and the distribution of same.

Quote from: chosenone on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:17:16
There is only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy of the HS. Every other sin can be forgiven by going to God and repenting.

Respectfully
Chosen there are a couple more unpardonable sins.  Taking the mark of the beast is one and never coming to Christ is another. 

 

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Now we have a quandary of sorts with Eph 2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.