Christian Forums

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Is this going to be a reasonable discussion or are you planning to continue to deposit ridiculous statements like the above?
You are Roman Catholic and you know very well what is meant by works.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:44:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Now we have a quandary of sorts with Eph 2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Don't even bother to respond.

Winsome is listing some items that not even the RCC considers to be a work.
He is just being decisive..

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:44:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Now we have a quandary of sorts with Eph 2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What did Paul mean by "works" in that quote?

And how does that relate to the coninuation of that quote: - "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them".

And then:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Gal 5:6)

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:47:13

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Is this going to be a reasonable discussion or are you planning to continue to deposit ridiculous statements like the above?
You are Roman Catholic and you know very well what is meant by works.

What do you mean by "works"?
Is it things done by Catholics but not by Protestants?

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:51:17

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:44:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Now we have a quandary of sorts with Eph 2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Don't even bother to respond.

Winsome is listing some items that not even the RCC considers to be a work.
He is just being decisive..

No I am not.

The issue is what is a "work".

Can you not define what you mean by the word?

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:59:36

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:44:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Now we have a quandary of sorts with Eph 2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What did Paul mean by "works" in that quote?

And how does that relate to the coninuation of that quote: - "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them".

And then:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Gal 5:6)

You just want to confuse the idea works.    Lets say a guy brags through works of moving my mouth and speaking words that say I believe in Christ so I am saved by works   

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:07:17

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:59:36

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:44:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Now we have a quandary of sorts with Eph 2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What did Paul mean by "works" in that quote?

And how does that relate to the coninuation of that quote: - "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them".

And then:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Gal 5:6)

You just want to confuse the idea works.    Lets say a guy brags through works of moving my mouth and speaking words that say I believe in Christ so I am saved by works   

Define what you mean by "works".

You quoted from Eph 2:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But then Paul appears to contradict himself in Gal 6:4
"Each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason to boast with regard to himself alone, and not with regard to someone else"

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:01:06

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:47:13

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Is this going to be a reasonable discussion or are you planning to continue to deposit ridiculous statements like the above?
You are Roman Catholic and you know very well what is meant by works.

What do you mean by "works"?
Is it things done by Catholics but not by Protestants?

The RCC is a sacerdotal system where grace is dispersed through the priesthood to the believer.
The carriage on which this grace is being dispersed are the sacraments of which the RCC has seven.

The two main sacraments, through with the believer can "accumulate" grace are the Eucharist and Penance.

For example: When a person is baptized his original sin is washed away and in place he receives an amount of justification, he is now also in a state of grace.
By committing a venial or mortal sin a person can loose part or all of this grace.
He then now has to go to the priest and confess. The priest will absolve the believer and admit a "punishment" of penance.
By doing the penance (and yes it must be done for the right reasons), the believer can now restore his grace.
The believer works together with God in the restoration of his justification.

In Protestantism no amount of works can contribute to grace or justification.
None of our works is acceptable and all grace and justification comes from Jesus.

Give you an example that makes this a bit more clear.
According to the RCC there is something like "condign merit". If a person has enough condign merits, than God would be unjust not to let him enter heaven.
Now in history, there are people who earned a lot of merits...more than they needed to go to heaven.
The excess merits are not used but go into something called the "treasury of merits".

These merits may be used by the church to distribute to believers. For example through indulgences.
So I can obtain an indulgence by doing something good for the right reason, and distribute the merits to my grandfather in purgatory.

For Protestants this doesn't work. Although there is a "treasury of merits" (if you want to call it this way), but the treasury is Jesus Christ.
Any justification is obtained from Him and through Him alone.


So now I think it is clear what is meant by "works".

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:40:44

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:01:06

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:47:13

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Is this going to be a reasonable discussion or are you planning to continue to deposit ridiculous statements like the above?
You are Roman Catholic and you know very well what is meant by works.

What do you mean by "works"?
Is it things done by Catholics but not by Protestants?

The RCC is a sacerdotal system where grace is dispersed through the priesthood to the believer.
The carriage on which this grace is being dispersed are the sacraments of which the RCC has seven.

The two main sacraments, through with the believer can "accumulate" grace are the Eucharist and Penance.

For example: When a person is baptized his original sin is washed away and in place he receives an amount of justification, he is now also in a state of grace.
By committing a venial or mortal sin a person can loose part or all of this grace.
He then now has to go to the priest and confess. The priest will absolve the believer and admit a "punishment" of penance.
By doing the penance (and yes it must be done for the right reasons), the believer can now restore his grace.
The believer works together with God in the restoration of his justification.

In Protestantism no amount of works can contribute to grace or justification.
None of our works is acceptable and all grace and justification comes from Jesus.

Give you an example that makes this a bit more clear.
According to the RCC there is something like "condign merit". If a person has enough condign merits, than God would be unjust not to let him enter heaven.
Now in history, there are people who earned a lot of merits...more than they needed to go to heaven.
The excess merits are not used but go into something called the "treasury of merits".

These merits may be used by the church to distribute to believers. For example through indulgences.
So I can obtain an indulgence by doing something good for the right reason, and distribute the merits to my grandfather in purgatory.

For Protestants this doesn't work. Although there is a "treasury of merits" (if you want to call it this way), but the treasury is Jesus Christ.
Any justification is obtained from Him and through Him alone.


So now I think it is clear what is meant by "works".

That doesn't make it clear at all. There is no definition of work there,

Let me give you a simple Dictionary definition of "work":
"activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary
"physical or mental effort directed towards doing or making something" Collins Concise English Dictionary
Under these definitions anything we do is work, even thinking or believing.

QuoteAccording to the RCC there is something like "condign merit". If a person has enough condign merits, than God would be unjust not to let him enter heaven.

1 Then Job answered and said,
2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
.................
20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me:
if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
....

30 If I wash myself with snow water,
and make my hands never so clean;

31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch,
and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
______________________________________________________________


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
and to present you faultless
before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour,
be glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever. Amen.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:11:45

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:07:17

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:59:36

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:44:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 09:24:47

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:57:39

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:47:55

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 08:07:46

This thread is about baptism and it drills directly into the doctrine of justification, whereas Roman Catholics believe baptism is a "work" to justification and Protestants don't.

This depends on what you mean by "work".

Surely all Protestants, except universalists, believe that we must "do" something before we are saved.

No Protestants do not believe that. Salvation is 100% a product of grace through faith.

Believing is doing something – a "work"

Also do we not have to call on the name of the Lord?
"Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21) – a "work"
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13) – a "work"

Do we not have to confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord?
"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9) – a "work

Do we not have to repent of our sins?
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38) – a "work"

Now we have a quandary of sorts with Eph 2:8,9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What did Paul mean by "works" in that quote?

And how does that relate to the coninuation of that quote: - "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them".

And then:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Gal 5:6)

You just want to confuse the idea works.    Lets say a guy brags through works of moving my mouth and speaking words that say I believe in Christ so I am saved by works   

Define what you mean by "works".

You quoted from Eph 2:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But then Paul appears to contradict himself in Gal 6:4
"Each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason to boast with regard to himself alone, and not with regard to someone else"

You must have a different translation. This is what mine says in Gal 6:4

But let every man prove his own works, and then he shall have rejoicing in himself aloneand not in another.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:02:14Can you not define what you mean by the word?

I have been asked to define work, as it is used in the scriptures, and this is my definition of works as I understand works from Paul by reading Romans 3-8; but even better, Galatians 2-5~ after pondering carefully those few chapters. I would give my understanding in explaining this phrase that is used so often by Paul......."Not of WORKS, or BY works" to means this: Not by any work whereby we have an active part in, be it hearing, repenting, believing, and baptism can plays a part in one being born again....or, if one prefers, to use the expression: being translated into the kingdom of God's dear son, by which one made partakers of the divine nature, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, then fine~yet, we had not one iota in thought or deed to secure our right to life eternal in the world to come. Again, if we have an active part in any shape or form, then it ceases to be all of grace~and grace and works cannot mixed and still remain one or the other.

QuoteRomans 11:5,6~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Quote from: RB on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 12:23:00

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 10:02:14Can you not define what you mean by the word?

I have been asked to define work, as it is used in the scriptures, and this is my definition of works as I understand works from Paul by reading Romans 3-8; but even better, Galatians 2-5~ after pondering carefully those few chapters. I would give my understanding in explaining this phrase that is used so often by Paul......."Not of WORKS, or BY works" to means this: Not by any work whereby we have an active part in, be it hearing, repenting, believing, and baptism can plays a part in one being born again....or, if one prefers, to use the expression: being translated into the kingdom of God's dear son, by which one made partakers of the divine nature, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, then fine~yet, we had not one iota in thought or deed to secure our right to life eternal in the world to come. Again, if we have an active part in any shape or form, then it ceases to be all of grace~and grace and works cannot mixed and still remain one or the other.

QuoteRomans 11:5,6~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

If there is nothing we do that plays a part in our salvation then how does God choose who he allows into heaven and who he does not?

Is it a random pick? A throw of the celestial dice?

Jesus tells us that God decides on the basis of works!

Mt 7:
21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

And

Mt 25:
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."





Do you subscribe to the Calvanist idea that God deliberately creates souls and damns them to hell?

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 11:54:37

QuoteAccording to the RCC there is something like "condign merit". If a person has enough condign merits, than God would be unjust not to let him enter heaven.

1 Then Job answered and said,
2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
.................
20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me:
if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
....

30 If I wash myself with snow water,
and make my hands never so clean;

31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch,
and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
____________________________________________ __________________


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
and to present you faultless
before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour,
be glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever. Amen.

Don't concern yourself Babbler, AVZs statement is not true.

It's amazing how Protestants think they know what the Catholic Church teaches. They almost always get it wrong.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 12:56:11If there is nothing we do that plays a part in our salvation then how does God choose who he allows into heaven and who he does not?

I'll be happy to answer later, or in morning, due to the fact I must step away for a period of time, not sure how long, but you will get your answer quickly, and from the scriptures.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 12:56:11If there is nothing we do that plays a part in our salvation then how does God choose who he allows into heaven and who he does not?

I highlighted you first step in your serious error of understanding the gospel as preached by Paul. There are no "if's" about whether or not works play a part of one receiving the right to enter into life eternal. From Abraham on, God began to reveal his covenant of grace to his children that he made with Himself through Jesus Christ, being the one upon whom he set forth, to fulfill the demands of entering into life, for those whom he elected according to the good pleasure of his will alone. What work did Abraham, or his grandson David, through fourteen generations removed, do to obtain God's righteousness?  Not one thing!

QuoteRomans 4:1-8~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works (that is, legally ), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

These scriptures are very clear that works had not one thing to do with Abraham or David's legal justification before God....only Christ's obedience is the means of one's legal justification. Now if you are wondering how or in what sense I understand this statement of Paul,  then ask, no problem, I'll be waiting: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Before you ask, let me remind you that that statement was said of Abraham many years after he had been walking with God.

QuoteIs it a random pick? A throw of the celestial dice?

I love mockers, it makes my job easier. All God tells us is that our salvation from sin and condemantion is a free gift of God grace, based upon his own will. That's all he reveals to us and that's all we need to know.

QuoteEphesians 1:5-7~"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

There you have it. Trust me, many more here who are not Catholics will side with you against me. You gave this scripture in support of your work gospel:

QuoteMt 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Really, is this the best you can do? So, you just quote scriptures that seems to support your position, without giving its sense? All this scriptures teaches is that God's children do the will of their father by heeding his commandments. We cannot earn heaven by doing so, for many reasons, but the main one is that even doing God's will, sin is mixed with our best efforts, in doing so. The law of God demands perfect obedience, or eternal death. Jesus Christ alone kept the law of God perfectly from conception to death, in word, thoughts and deeds, for his seed. Of course, those who are born of God, live a life of pleasing God, overall considered, yet we do not live a sinless life, not even for one hour, or even less! 

I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

Show me faith with out the works ?
It's about the faith in Jesus ! not your personal works at all because such works are but just filthy rags.
Abiding in Christ Jesus is a work in progress in his Name, not of man at all, It's Spiritual abiding work as in Jesus.
It's Jesus working in you that does the work.
Your works can't cut it.

I think some who claim 'faith alone' have a dead jesus, they are talking of the finished work, as if it's a done deal, just believe and that's all it is to it and bang your saved, you are going to Heaven regardless of who you kill rob cheat rape etc etc, so one fundamentalist so called christian dude informed me.
I said when ever I hear the word 'done deal' that's a new age worldly sales man term of Satan and pointed out that Jesus is just alive today as he ever was.

Nevertheless he claimed that RCC was truly on about worldly works of man, I said that's slander ! the charge of slander never raises an eyebrow to him. true I have come across RC people who believe it is their works they are doing especially the PC ones, but it's not the true RCC teaching at all.
He also mentions contracts between God and man, God does not have contracts, Satan has contracts and does deals, but God is above such worldly things.

Quote from: Hexalpa on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 17:03:47


I think some who claim 'faith alone' have a dead jesus,

Well, you think very wrongly.

Quote from: MeMyself on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 17:40:25

Quote from: Hexalpa on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 17:03:47


I think some who claim 'faith alone' have a dead jesus,

Well, you think very wrongly.

Amen, Jesus is very much alive. He alone has saved us.

Quote from: Hexalpa on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 17:03:47
Show me faith with out the works ?
It's about the faith in Jesus ! not your personal works at all because such works are but just filthy rags.
Abiding in Christ Jesus is a work in progress in his Name, not of man at all, It's Spiritual abiding work as in Jesus.
It's Jesus working in you that does the work.
Your works can't cut it.

I think some who claim 'faith alone' have a dead jesus, they are talking of the finished work, as if it's a done deal, just believe and that's all it is to it and bang your saved, you are going to Heaven regardless of who you kill rob cheat rape etc etc, so one fundamentalist so called christian dude informed me.
I said when ever I hear the word 'done deal' that's a new age worldly sales man term of Satan and pointed out that Jesus is just alive today as he ever was.

Nevertheless he claimed that RCC was truly on about worldly works of man, I said that's slander ! the charge of slander never raises an eyebrow to him. true I have come across RC people who believe it is their works they are doing especially the PC ones, but it's not the true RCC teaching at all.
He also mentions contracts between God and man, God does not have contracts, Satan has contracts and does deals, but God is above such worldly things.

You are full of contradictions.

First you start off by saying "It's about the faith in Jesus! not your personal works at all because such works are but just filthy rags."
And then you say "I think some who claim 'faith alone' have a dead Jesus".

So then what is salvation all about? Is it about "Faith Alone" or is it about "Faith ++"?
And if salvation comes through faith + something...then what is that "something"?


You then proceed to say: "Nevertheless he claimed that RCC was truly on about worldly works of man, I said that's slander!"
You may be on to something here because indeed the RCC does not take that point theological. So you score a point there.

Unfortunately you immediately loose that point by making the slanderous insinuation that "they are talking of the finished work, as if it's a done deal, just believe and that's all it is to it and bang your saved, you are going to Heaven regardless of who you kill rob cheat rape etc etc, so one fundamentalist so called christian dude informed me."


Now this whole issue doesn't need to be argumented in detail here, because the issue has already been settled long time ago:
Protestantism: Salvation is by faith alone
Roman Catholicism: Faith alone is NOT sufficient for salvation.

Now with regards to "works".
Protestantism has the view that "works" are the fruit of the Spirit. They are the fruit of faith. It is faith that leads man to good works.
Roman Catholicism has the view that faith and works are separate entities. Both faith and works are separate requirements for salvation.

The notion that salvation, in part, requires works is clearly expressed in the merit system of the RCC.
One can, by living an extremely pious life, earn enough (condign) merits, that God is obligated to allow a person to enter heaven.
Another type of merit (congruous), if accumulated enough, makes it fitting that God allows a person to enter heaven.

This is what the doctrine of the assumption of Mary rests on.
Mary did so much, and the angel called her "full of grace"...so Mary earned so many merits that it was fitting for God to take her up bodily in heaven.

It also explains the need for baby baptism in the RCC.
A newborn baby is born in the state of mortal sin. If the baby dies...it will go to hell.
Once the baby is baptized it's state of mortal sin is replaced with a state of grace. If the baby dies...it will go to heaven.
Now this baby is unable to express faith, so the act of baptism or rather said the "work" of baptism earns this baby "points" to salvation.

It is also clearly seen in the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick (Last Rites).
If one commits a mortal sin, and one dies in that state, then that person surely will go to hell.
By performing the Last Rites, the state of mortal sin is restored to the state of grace. Now if that person dies he will go to purgatory instead of hell.

Now to protestants the whole notion that one can acquire salvic merits through external sacraments or acts of faith is a violation of the completeness of Christs offer on the cross.
Whereas the Roman Catholic church proclaims that the death on the cross by itself is not sufficient for salvation, Protestants see the death not only as completely sufficient but also as the only source from which salvation can be acquired.


Any objections to what I wrote?

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

The dying man did something - he confessed Christ as Lord

The thief on the cross did something - he defended Jesus and rebuked the other thief.

I note that you still have not defined "work".

I gave a definition: "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Under that definiton - which you have not challenged - in both your scenarios they did a "work".

I'm going to leave this business of works in this thread and start a new one called "Salvation by Works?". I think the topic needs to be come at in a different way. I'm busy today so it will probably be tomorrow or Wednesday.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?

By name is not Winsome, but allow me to say this concerning your question~before one will ever enter into life eternal in the world to come, all of his works MUST be PERFECT in thought, word and deed from conception to death, or, that person will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death! The law of God cannot, nor will not acquit sinners of their sins, unless a perfect surety will paid for their sin debt.  Praise be unto God, that Jesus came into this world, and lived as the second Adam for the elect of God, and all that he did, was freely put to their account, as though they perfectly lived in obedience to the law of God, from conception to death, in thought, word and deed! My sins were imputed to him and his righteousness was freely imputed to me. In due time the Spirit of God quicken his elect, so that they can see, understand and believe the great news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, of FREE JUSTIFICATION through the faith and righteousness of ONE, even Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Quote is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.

Yes, the law of God must be fulfilled perfectly before one can have the right to the tree of life, in the new heaven and earth. Thank the Lord God Almighty for his blessed, and holy Son, JESUS, the Savior of the chiefest of sinners.

Hi RB,

As I said to mclees I'm going to drop the discussion on "works" and start a new thread called "Salvation by Works" later. However I will answer your post now because you have taken the time to respond and it's not exactly what I am going to cover later.

   [/font]

Quote from: RB on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 15:08:29

Quote from: winsome on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 12:56:11If there is nothing we do that plays a part in our salvation then how does God choose who he allows into heaven and who he does not?

I highlighted you first step in your serious error of understanding the gospel as preached by Paul. There are no "if's" about whether or not works play a part of one receiving the right to enter into life eternal. From Abraham on, God began to reveal his covenant of grace to his children that he made with Himself through Jesus Christ, being the one upon whom he set forth, to fulfill the demands of entering into life, for those whom he elected according to the good pleasure of his will alone. What work did Abraham, or his grandson David, through fourteen generations removed, do to obtain God's righteousness?  Not one thing!

QuoteRomans 4:1-8~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works (that is, legally ), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

These scriptures are very clear that works had not one thing to do with Abraham or David's legal justification before God....only Christ's obedience is the means of one's legal justification. Now if you are wondering how or in what sense I understand this statement of Paul,  then ask, no problem, I'll be waiting: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Before you ask, let me remind you that that statement was said of Abraham many years after he had been walking with God.

QuoteIs it a random pick? A throw of the celestial dice?

I love mockers, it makes my job easier. All God tells us is that our salvation from sin and condemantion is a free gift of God grace, based upon his own will. That's all he reveals to us and that's all we need to know.

QuoteEphesians 1:5-7~"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

There you have it. Trust me, many more here who are not Catholics will side with you against me. You gave this scripture in support of your work gospel:

QuoteMt 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Really, is this the best you can do? So, you just quote scriptures that seems to support your position, without giving its sense? All this scriptures teaches is that God's children do the will of their father by heeding his commandments. We cannot earn heaven by doing so, for many reasons, but the main one is that even doing God's will, sin is mixed with our best efforts, in doing so. The law of God demands perfect obedience, or eternal death. Jesus Christ alone kept the law of God perfectly from conception to death, in word, thoughts and deeds, for his seed. Of course, those who are born of God, live a life of pleasing God, overall considered, yet we do not live a sinless life, not even for one hour, or even less!

When Paul is referring to work in Rom 4:1-8 he was referring to works under the Law. If we go back to Rom 3

For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law (vs 20)

For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law (vs 28)

Attempting to achieve justification by works of the law were attempting to put God under a legal obligation – God becomes our debtor. As Paul said "Now to him that worketh [under the Law] is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" That is something we will always fail to do because we cannot keep the Law perfectly.

However we can receive rewards for work - but not works done under the Law.

You see this whole argument about "works" hinges on a proper understanding of the kind of "works" we are referring to - and Paul was referring to.

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law" (Rom 3:21)

Yes, exactly – but that does not mean that works play no part. But not works of the Law.

We have to come out from under this legal mindset because we are under grace.

Jesus makes it very clear that works play a part in our salvation (Mt 25:32-46)

You criticise my use of Mt 7:21, but then go on to say it tells us we must heed his commandments. Keeping his commandments is doing something – "work".

I'll leave it there. I hope that my new thread will explain my position on this better.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 03:53:07

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

The dying man did something - he confessed Christ as Lord

The thief on the cross did something - he defended Jesus and rebuked the other thief.

I note that you still have not defined "work".

I gave a definition: "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Under that definiton - which you have not challenged - in both your scenarios they did a "work".

I'm going to leave this business of works in this thread and start a new one called "Salvation by Works?". I think the topic needs to be come at in a different way. I'm busy today so it will probably be tomorrow or Wednesday.

Well by that definition even going to bed is work.
I have to brush my teeth and flip the blankets.

And sitting in a chair thinking watching TV also is a work because it requires a mental effort.
You are taking the explanation of "work" into the ridiculous claiming that professing or saying something is a work.

Taking all this together, then this is a work:

I sat in my chair, thinking if I picked the correct colors, looking at the painter painting my house and professing I liked what he did.
Yeah...I worked my butt off today.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:27:22
Keeping his commandments is doing something – "work".

Well, I did some great "works" today.
- I did not steal
- I did not bow down to other gods
- I did not kill anyone
- I did not
- I did not commit adultery

Look at that...I can actually do something by doing nothing.

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:28:03

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 03:53:07

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

The dying man did something - he confessed Christ as Lord

The thief on the cross did something - he defended Jesus and rebuked the other thief.

I note that you still have not defined "work".

I gave a definition: "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Under that definiton - which you have not challenged - in both your scenarios they did a "work".

I'm going to leave this business of works in this thread and start a new one called "Salvation by Works?". I think the topic needs to be come at in a different way. I'm busy today so it will probably be tomorrow or Wednesday.

Well by that definition even going to bed is work.
I have to brush my teeth and flip the blankets.

And sitting in a chair thinking watching TV also is a work because it requires a mental effort.
You are taking the explanation of "work" into the ridiculous claiming that professing or saying something is a work.

Taking all this together, then this is a work:

I sat in my chair, thinking if I picked the correct colors, looking at the painter painting my house and professing I liked what he did.
Yeah...I worked my butt off today.

Yes - all those things are "work" "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

If you wait for my thread "Salvation by  Works?" I think you will understand my position better.

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:31:56

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:27:22
Keeping his commandments is doing something – "work".

Well, I did some great "works" today.
- I did not steal
- I did not bow down to other gods
- I did not kill anyone
- I did not
- I did not commit adultery

Look at that...I can actually do something by doing nothing.

Resisting tempations can be hard work at times!

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:32:51

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:28:03

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 03:53:07

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

The dying man did something - he confessed Christ as Lord

The thief on the cross did something - he defended Jesus and rebuked the other thief.

I note that you still have not defined "work".

I gave a definition: "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Under that definiton - which you have not challenged - in both your scenarios they did a "work".

I'm going to leave this business of works in this thread and start a new one called "Salvation by Works?". I think the topic needs to be come at in a different way. I'm busy today so it will probably be tomorrow or Wednesday.

Well by that definition even going to bed is work.
I have to brush my teeth and flip the blankets.

And sitting in a chair thinking watching TV also is a work because it requires a mental effort.
You are taking the explanation of "work" into the ridiculous claiming that professing or saying something is a work.

Taking all this together, then this is a work:

I sat in my chair, thinking if I picked the correct colors, looking at the painter painting my house and professing I liked what he did.
Yeah...I worked my butt off today.

Yes - all those things are "work" "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

If you wait for my thread "Salvation by  Works?" I think you will understand my position better.

Well before you do that, let me give you the definition of works as it is meant in scripture.

Works is: an unselfish act that benefits someone other than yourself.

And I would add that some form of sacrifice is required. One must actually give something up so that another can benefit.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:27:22When Paul is referring to work in Rom 4:1-8 he was referring to works under the Law. If we go back to Rom 3 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law (vs 20)

I'll wait, but a couple of thoughts so you can correct them in your thread that you are going to start.

Winsome, I did not know that there are any kind works, other than those under the law, which can be explained, or defined with these words: "This DO, and live, sin, and DIE!" So, really your point is invalid.

QuoteFor we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law (vs 28)

Remember, Justification is used in different senses in the scriptures, and never is it used as far a our legal justification with reference to our faith, never. You can cover this in your thread as well.

QuoteHowever we can receive rewards for work - but not works done under the Law.

What kind of reward do you have in mind? You may want to address this as well.

QuoteWe have to come out from under this legal mindset because we are under grace.

Winsome, every child of God has been under grace in the same sense that we are under grace, that has never changed~you made want to address this as well. For I surely will.

QuoteJesus makes it very clear that works play a part in our salvation (Mt 25:32-46)

Not legally, only as an evidence, never anything more than that~or, Jesus' life and death was in vain. You may want to address this.

QuoteI'll leave it there. I hope that my new thread will explain my position on this better.

Well dear sir, you may want to make sure that your position can be supported by God's testimony, for that's what we will bring to test you with....I trust that you would expect nothing less.

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 05:42:43

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:32:51

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 04:28:03

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 03:53:07

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

The dying man did something - he confessed Christ as Lord

The thief on the cross did something - he defended Jesus and rebuked the other thief.

I note that you still have not defined "work".

I gave a definition: "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Under that definiton - which you have not challenged - in both your scenarios they did a "work".

I'm going to leave this business of works in this thread and start a new one called "Salvation by Works?". I think the topic needs to be come at in a different way. I'm busy today so it will probably be tomorrow or Wednesday.

Well by that definition even going to bed is work.
I have to brush my teeth and flip the blankets.

And sitting in a chair thinking watching TV also is a work because it requires a mental effort.
You are taking the explanation of "work" into the ridiculous claiming that professing or saying something is a work.

Taking all this together, then this is a work:

I sat in my chair, thinking if I picked the correct colors, looking at the painter painting my house and professing I liked what he did.
Yeah...I worked my butt off today.

Yes - all those things are "work" "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

If you wait for my thread "Salvation by  Works?" I think you will understand my position better.

Well before you do that, let me give you the definition of works as it is meant in scripture.

Works is: an unselfish act that benefits someone other than yourself.

And I would add that some form of sacrifice is required. One must actually give something up so that another can benefit.

And the where is scripture is that definition?
Chapter and verse please.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 07:01:16

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 05:42:43
Well before you do that, let me give you the definition of works as it is meant in scripture.

Works is: an unselfish act that benefits someone other than yourself.

And I would add that some form of sacrifice is required. One must actually give something up so that another can benefit.

And the where is scripture is that definition?
Chapter and verse please.

Sorry..I thought this was a serious discussion.
Let me know when you are able to contribute with substance.

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 08:11:26

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 07:01:16

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 05:42:43
Well before you do that, let me give you the definition of works as it is meant in scripture.

Works is: an unselfish act that benefits someone other than yourself.

And I would add that some form of sacrifice is required. One must actually give something up so that another can benefit.

And the where is scripture is that definition?
Chapter and verse please.

Sorry..I thought this was a serious discussion.
Let me know when you are able to contribute with substance.

So it is not a scriptural definition as you claimed. It's your own personal definition.

How does making up a definition and claiming it is scriptural contribute to a serious discussion?

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 03:53:07

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

The dying man did something - he confessed Christ as Lord

The thief on the cross did something - he defended Jesus and rebuked the other thief.

I note that you still have not defined "work".

I gave a definition: "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result." Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Under that definiton - which you have not challenged - in both your scenarios they did a "work".

I'm going to leave this business of works in this thread and start a new one called "Salvation by Works?". I think the topic needs to be come at in a different way. I'm busy today so it will probably be tomorrow or Wednesday.

Well since you think you have the answer go work your way to heaven. I am also leaving this useless thread and will not be in your next thread either.

Winsome isn't far off, though I wouldn't word it like he did. The facts are the Lord clearly stated it's the one who does the Will of God who enters, and James already said we're not justified before God by faith alone. However, they're not works ad much as they are simple obedience. If the Lord tells one "Move to San Francisco, I have work for you there," and one refuses to because they're "saved by faith alone," you really expect that person to have favor from the Lord? Yes the obedience must come by faith, but nonetheless there are expectations.